Originally posted by Rattrap I simply hate ganking. It infuriates me so much , that if the unfortunate ganker would live next door to me - I would break into his home and beat him senselles. That is how i feel about ganking.
It is simply me. I cannot stand to be put into situation where there is no alternatives. And gankers do that. I would like to show them that there is an alternative - facing their monitor crushing in their face...
Lol, I know how you feel Rattrap. I have not played an mmo for 8 months. I just come here to see if anything new is comming out. But i blame it on the game time cards. The playerbase in mmo's is so inmature now. And i like how pvper's say some of them don't gank. Every mmo that i've ever played was full of them. Anytime i was killed was by ganking from a higher lvl player. Mmo's are just not as fun as they used to be. They should have different servers for different play styles. Not everyone is interested in pvp in mmo's. Most pvp mmo's have low player numbers anyways. Developers need to wake up, You can't just cater to one style of game play and make money any more.
I like a challange, and ganking is everything but a challange.
I noticed EVE got mentioned by one that loves ganking, yes indeed that game is crowded with cowards that hide in big blobs and heck even they go so far as crashing nodes just to not loose something. Lovely isn't it
However I don't realy see a good solution to this in a mmorpg, sinse you mostly will play with levels or skilllevels. Also you have the mentaly that older players want to see their char develope and so create advantages over the newer ones. Wich opens up to griefers and gankers are only a part of griefers.
But to come back to EVE, nothing is more fun then have a few friends accompany you with cloak and look at how the ganking squad gets blasted appart when they try doing the same to you, only problem here is they leave someone alone if they notice more of the same player corp in local. A decent NERF here is needed
"If all magic fails, rely on three feet of steel and a strong arm"
What do you mean by "proper balanced games for PvP"?
It is a simple fact for mmorpgs; some people are skilled at them and some people aren't. You can't control how good someone gets.
Baff, i'm not trying to bash you but have you played any game besides WoW? Most games have a great PvP community, except WoW, GW, Runescape...ect.
I agree with you about the skilled vs non skilled. If you play a game such as Chess or CounterStrike where everybody has identical kit and level, it is clear to see how much difference personal skill makes.
However fights do not start from a balanced position. One person may be higher level or have access to uber gear. At the end of each round, a player may not simply reselect his gear from all that is available to counter an enemies tactics. In games primarily designed for PvP play, Online FPs games being a great example, they are balanced. At the beginning of each fight all players choose from all the same gear options. In MMORPG's the game types are uninspired, the enviroments rarely make much difference, and essentially the combat comes down to button mashing. PvP gaming in other genres is a much more established and evolved game form. More if them have been doing it for longer. They do it better.
I have played WoW, I have played Runscape. I've seen Guild Wars (and it looks to be the best balanced PvP MMO out there in my opinion. Since you can all start at max level and all have access to all the skills. Not to mention the spectator option and $100,000 prizes). I've also played about another 10 or so other MMO's. All the usual suspects.
I have found the communities in all games to be great. Runescape and WoW included. In any server with a thousand players it is easy to surround myself in like minded people. However PvP is a magnet for the over competative types, for cheaters, for over serious hardcore gamers, for smack talkers and griefers. By no means all who play PvP fit into this catagory, but quite a few do. This is the same in CounterStrike as it is Planetside, WoW, Lineage or Eve. Name you PvP game, it's the same. You don't find the concentration of these people playing co-op. I play games to relax. I like relaxed people.
When I want the unpredictability of player vs player action (and believe me it tends not to be very unpredictable at all), I like a game with some depth. Also I like a game that is accessable, I don't want to spend 4 hours talking up a fight and gathering all my team and another hour warping through space only when I get there for the enemy fleet to run off. This is just nonsense and a waste of an evening. I also want a game where if I am a leet 2+ year veteran, noobs can still kill me. If I am ownzor the ownage god, unkillable and 20 kills per death, I might as well play against AI and not be ruining anyone elses fun. In the same vein, as a noob I wish to be able to compete with a Vet evenly. Not just permadie until I get bored and log off.
MMORPG's aren't very good for PvP. They just don't cut it. I appreciate that many people, including many people I like to play with, enjoy it. So I like to see it catered for. But it has no particular appeal to me in an MMORPG. It's not why I launch that kind of game.
I don't gank people, especially people who are minding their own business doing PvE activities. I don't grief lower level players who don't con to me or provide any sort of reward. I enjoy a good PvP fight..but rarely go looking for one, preferring to work hard on my PvE to get my levels/gear.
That said.. I love playing on FFA PvP servers. While I liked DAOC's RvR servers, I spent my final 1.5 years there on Mordred where anyone not in your guild could attack you just about anywhere. I didn't play there to grief, I felt it was a greater challenge to level up in a world where you could be surprise attacked at any moment.
I also got a huge rush in escaping from the gankers, and am very good at it. My first two 60's in WOW were on PvP servers, and while I'm now on PvE boxes because my friends prefer them, I miss the days of running or hiding from gankers as I tried to level. And for those player who felt in necessary to grief me... I really enjoyed coming back and trying to exact retribution, either with some friends or with a well placed level 60 guard character that I had hidden safely away.
So I guess you could say I enjoy an open PvP environment, though I realize that many gamers don't like it. I'm really hoping WH has a FFA server on it one day much like DAOC did.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I would say that they should put serious mechanisms in place to prevent greifers/gankers. Who cares if a small segment of the population likes it. There is a small segment of the real world population that likes to molest little boys and girls, that doesnt mean society should allow it.
Here are a few possible solutions.
Option A
Have pvp zones designed for PVP. Somewhat like Daoc and WoW, but not just capture the flag either. It can even be like UO, areas were its FFA and anyone going thier knows it, and cant really complain. The key here thou is to not build it where there are more advantages thier then pve zones. Only advantages IMO should be pvp type rewards, period. UO had factions rewards, Daoc and special pvp reward points and abilities, WoW has pvp weapons and armor. A combination of all these would be good IMO.
Option B
Have a pvp switch /toggle command. Have it where it takes like 10 minutes to go into effect (so people cant use it to escape from death). Have it where there is a mandatory time limit it has to stay in effect like 1hr ... before it can be switched back. That way people cant just switch back and forth all the time.
With something like this, people could ignore griefers without having to worry about it.
--
In regards to the person above that said PVP and PVE dont mix and should be in different games. I dont agree, I would also argue that most PVPers want something else to do other than just pure PVE. It might be housing, crafting, pve solo/grouping. I dont think a pure PVP only MMO would sell very well imo.
When it's totally skill>level/gear and with instanced and fair fights, it's totally on another level. You don't see gankers and can have a blast with the best PvP system atm in online gaming.
The OP makes a good point, although a i think a better way to word it would be carebears and griefers.
Also, instanced/consentual pvp can hardly be considered pvp. It's essentially the same thing as multiplayer in FPS or RTS games. You kill other players because it's the only thing to do. And whether or not you participate in consentual pvp should not be taken into account when distinguishing between carebears and griefers, because both will engage in consentual pvp from time to time.
That said, i think you vastly underestimate the % of carebears. 35 is way too low. I would guess more like 60-70.
Griefers grief for two reasons:
1. they are cruel and it makes them feel big
2. they get something tangible out of it (bounties, territory, political sway, etc)
The point is that they are selfish and do not feel bad about stomping other players into the ground.
As far as player alignment goes, i think it can be better arranged into 4 types (mimicked from the classification of sinners in dante's inferno, actually)
1. "Virtuous" - players who will not engage in nonconsentual pvp no matter what (carebears)
2. Vengeful - players who generally mind their own business unless someone messes with them first (most players including myself fall into this category, i think) - often called carebears by the more "evil" types
3. Violent - players who, unprovoked, actively go out and make life miserable for other players for selfish reasons (gankers, pk'ers)
4. Treacherous - players who intentionally earn and then betray the trust of other players for personal gain (scammers), usually under a veil of secrecy/anonymity
And i think it would be awesome if a MMO took these categories into account, providing tangible rewards for engaging in defining acts of their alignment. Unfortunately this becomes extremely difficult with #4, as computers are completely incapable of measuring intent. oh well, i can dream can't i
Originally posted by Aelfinn The point wasnt really that the majority don't want PvP at all, its that they dont want PVP to interfere with their everyday gameplay, they would rather have PVP be confined to battlegrounds or some other medium, than have to watch out for that A**hole sneaking up to one shot kill him/her while he/she is trying to level up on some mobs
Bingo.
To a subset of the population, that risk of being smacked in the back of the head while harvesting or something, provides an "adrenaline rush" that they cannot live without. But that subset is very small.
Most players, as shown in survey, after survey, after survey, feel exactly as you say -- they want to have PVP when they are in the mood for it, but also want to be able to just relax and do some PVE without interference from other players, when in a different mood.
Originally posted by Aelfinn The point wasnt really that the majority don't want PvP at all, its that they dont want PVP to interfere with their everyday gameplay, they would rather have PVP be confined to battlegrounds or some other medium, than have to watch out for that A**hole sneaking up to one shot kill him/her while he/she is trying to level up on some mobs
Bingo.
To a subset of the population, that risk of being smacked in the back of the head while harvesting or something, provides an "adrenaline rush" that they cannot live without. But that subset is very small.
Most players, as shown in survey, after survey, after survey, feel exactly as you say -- they want to have PVP when they are in the mood for it, but also want to be able to just relax and do some PVE without interference from other players, when in a different mood.
C
This is probably why eve has a leveling system that it does as in its time based rather than leveling based.
Isurus you make some very interesting points. I dont agree that the "carebear" community represents 70% however, unless you are grouping both 1-2 "Virtuous" and "Vengeful" together. Then I would say they represent even more then 70%. My original point of 35% was really meaning a group of players that would prefer absolutely no pvp at all under no circumstances, regardless of the rules involved. After thinking about it I think its actually slightly less then 35%.
By using your Dante's Inferno quote, my interpretation would leave groups 2-4 wanting some form of pvp (even if casual). I would also say that group 4 represents an extremely minority of players less then 2% and group 3 represents less then 10%. I feel that GM's should have as many tools as possible to find people "Treacherous", and when they do they really should perma ban them. Most people would be surprised how many chances GM's give these people. Especially considering how destructive they are.
If it is agreed that both group 3 and 4 represent a small minority of players, then why do game designers not put in place rulesets to stop the behavior completely? Put in serious consequences if done, or remove the ability to do it? To me it seems the designers are always making an extreme choice between having either PVE only, or letting PK's/Griefers/Gankers to run amok. Why are they not taking some middle ground on the issue?
To further the point of greifing. It seems like on a server its always the same very few players inconveniencing many people.
Example:
WoW, UO (name the pvp game). New low level character is pveing, in the middle of a 10 min quest or at half life on a mob, bamm griefer double your levels comes and kills you. Its not just a random griefer, its the same griefer everyone knows them and has been doing this all month, you log on your high level char, or call in a friend for help, but when you get there the griefer is gone or you just cant find them. Sure you level out of the zone, move on to the next griefers persons spot... meanwhlie this person is harassing hundreds of newbs day in day out.
I could probably name about a ten players on the entire WoW server thats has around 10k players on it(thats less then 1/10 of 1% of the entire server), these people account for around 80% of the incidents. So why are these 10 people not banned or removed? Sure in WoW they dont get "rewards" for the behavior, but thats not the point, thier reward is pissing people off. Its bad customer service for the game. You would think the game would have an interest in removing the behavior?
I hear ya, Brainy. So many of these MMOs i've played are extremely lacking in the pvp department. And you're right, they tend to polarize pvp one way or the other. The pvp becomes either 100% consentual or utter gank fests. Where is the middle ground??
Take wow for example. PVE servers are strictly carebear. The only pvp you see is in battlegrounds and it's 100% consentual. On the pvp servers you have battlegrounds (again) and "open" faction pvp (lv60s in faction x ganking lv30s in faction y). Duels aren't really deserving of mention.
Eve makes another great example. You can spend your whole career farming missions in emipre (hi security space) and never engage in pvp, or you can go out to low sec and into a world of gank-or-be-ganked (especially bad in the 0.4 border systems). Corporate warfare occurs in 0.0 but that is end game content and i haven't reached it yet (can't comment).
The only MMO i've played that (imo) got pvp right was Lineage 2. L2's open pvp model is basically nonconsentual pvp with consequences. Outside of towns, you are allowed to attack anyone anywhere. However, when you PK another player, you gain karma. Until you work the karma off (through killing mobs or dying repeatedly) you have a very high chance of dropping valuable items, which are usually very difficult to get.
Unfortunately L2's pvp system comes with a ton of excess baggage (ie. the rest of the game), otherwise i would still be playing it.
Open pvp with consequences is (again, IMO) the way to go. You shouldn't be able to toggle off "pvp mode", and you shouldn't be able to gank other people without putting something on the line.
This ideal pvp system doesn't just pop up out of nowhere, it requires effort on the designer's part. You need to encourage (but not force) player conflict. Casually competing over resources is one way to do it.
In L2, much of the player conflict arises from someone trying to muscle in on someone else's territory (the mob spawn they have staked out or whatever). Sure this becomes one sided at times but it also can create some very interesting conflicts, as the opposing sides try different strategies or call for backup. And more often than not, the defeated team plans their coup back in town and returns for some more action.
Rarely do you see PK squads ganking lowbies because of the consequences of racking up karma (unless it's a PK character, but even then those are better spent on your enemies rather than on random newbs). You see ganking in clan warfare but usually if two clans are going at it, they are reasonably evenly matched in the first place.
I could go on but i'll cut myself off here. There will always be ganking and always be consentual pvp but the bulk of it should be somewhere in between. And that is the hallmark of a quality mmo.
Comments
I like a challange, and ganking is everything but a challange.
I noticed EVE got mentioned by one that loves ganking, yes indeed that game is crowded with cowards that hide in big blobs and heck even they go so far as crashing nodes just to not loose something. Lovely isn't it
However I don't realy see a good solution to this in a mmorpg, sinse you mostly will play with levels or skilllevels. Also you have the mentaly that older players want to see their char develope and so create advantages over the newer ones. Wich opens up to griefers and gankers are only a part of griefers.
But to come back to EVE, nothing is more fun then have a few friends accompany you with cloak and look at how the ganking squad gets blasted appart when they try doing the same to you, only problem here is they leave someone alone if they notice more of the same player corp in local. A decent NERF here is needed
"If all magic fails, rely on three feet of steel and a strong arm"
It is a simple fact for mmorpgs; some people are skilled at them and some people aren't. You can't control how good someone gets.
Baff, i'm not trying to bash you but have you played any game besides WoW? Most games have a great PvP community, except WoW, GW, Runescape...ect.
I agree with you about the skilled vs non skilled. If you play a game such as Chess or CounterStrike where everybody has identical kit and level, it is clear to see how much difference personal skill makes.
However fights do not start from a balanced position. One person may be higher level or have access to uber gear. At the end of each round, a player may not simply reselect his gear from all that is available to counter an enemies tactics. In games primarily designed for PvP play, Online FPs games being a great example, they are balanced. At the beginning of each fight all players choose from all the same gear options. In MMORPG's the game types are uninspired, the enviroments rarely make much difference, and essentially the combat comes down to button mashing. PvP gaming in other genres is a much more established and evolved game form. More if them have been doing it for longer. They do it better.
I have played WoW, I have played Runscape. I've seen Guild Wars (and it looks to be the best balanced PvP MMO out there in my opinion. Since you can all start at max level and all have access to all the skills. Not to mention the spectator option and $100,000 prizes). I've also played about another 10 or so other MMO's. All the usual suspects.
I have found the communities in all games to be great. Runescape and WoW included. In any server with a thousand players it is easy to surround myself in like minded people. However PvP is a magnet for the over competative types, for cheaters, for over serious hardcore gamers, for smack talkers and griefers. By no means all who play PvP fit into this catagory, but quite a few do. This is the same in CounterStrike as it is Planetside, WoW, Lineage or Eve. Name you PvP game, it's the same. You don't find the concentration of these people playing co-op. I play games to relax. I like relaxed people.
When I want the unpredictability of player vs player action (and believe me it tends not to be very unpredictable at all), I like a game with some depth. Also I like a game that is accessable, I don't want to spend 4 hours talking up a fight and gathering all my team and another hour warping through space only when I get there for the enemy fleet to run off. This is just nonsense and a waste of an evening. I also want a game where if I am a leet 2+ year veteran, noobs can still kill me. If I am ownzor the ownage god, unkillable and 20 kills per death, I might as well play against AI and not be ruining anyone elses fun. In the same vein, as a noob I wish to be able to compete with a Vet evenly. Not just permadie until I get bored and log off.
MMORPG's aren't very good for PvP. They just don't cut it. I appreciate that many people, including many people I like to play with, enjoy it. So I like to see it catered for. But it has no particular appeal to me in an MMORPG. It's not why I launch that kind of game.
I'm a bit unusal for a PvP game player.
I don't gank people, especially people who are minding their own business doing PvE activities. I don't grief lower level players who don't con to me or provide any sort of reward. I enjoy a good PvP fight..but rarely go looking for one, preferring to work hard on my PvE to get my levels/gear.
That said.. I love playing on FFA PvP servers. While I liked DAOC's RvR servers, I spent my final 1.5 years there on Mordred where anyone not in your guild could attack you just about anywhere. I didn't play there to grief, I felt it was a greater challenge to level up in a world where you could be surprise attacked at any moment.
I also got a huge rush in escaping from the gankers, and am very good at it. My first two 60's in WOW were on PvP servers, and while I'm now on PvE boxes because my friends prefer them, I miss the days of running or hiding from gankers as I tried to level. And for those player who felt in necessary to grief me... I really enjoyed coming back and trying to exact retribution, either with some friends or with a well placed level 60 guard character that I had hidden safely away.
So I guess you could say I enjoy an open PvP environment, though I realize that many gamers don't like it. I'm really hoping WH has a FFA server on it one day much like DAOC did.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I would say that they should put serious mechanisms in place to prevent greifers/gankers. Who cares if a small segment of the population likes it. There is a small segment of the real world population that likes to molest little boys and girls, that doesnt mean society should allow it.
Here are a few possible solutions.
Option A
Have pvp zones designed for PVP. Somewhat like Daoc and WoW, but not just capture the flag either. It can even be like UO, areas were its FFA and anyone going thier knows it, and cant really complain. The key here thou is to not build it where there are more advantages thier then pve zones. Only advantages IMO should be pvp type rewards, period. UO had factions rewards, Daoc and special pvp reward points and abilities, WoW has pvp weapons and armor. A combination of all these would be good IMO.
Option B
Have a pvp switch /toggle command. Have it where it takes like 10 minutes to go into effect (so people cant use it to escape from death). Have it where there is a mandatory time limit it has to stay in effect like 1hr ... before it can be switched back. That way people cant just switch back and forth all the time.
With something like this, people could ignore griefers without having to worry about it.
--
In regards to the person above that said PVP and PVE dont mix and should be in different games. I dont agree, I would also argue that most PVPers want something else to do other than just pure PVE. It might be housing, crafting, pve solo/grouping. I dont think a pure PVP only MMO would sell very well imo.
When it's totally skill>level/gear and with instanced and fair fights, it's totally on another level. You don't see gankers and can have a blast with the best PvP system atm in online gaming.
Even to myself I'm a genius
The OP makes a good point, although a i think a better way to word it would be carebears and griefers.
Also, instanced/consentual pvp can hardly be considered pvp. It's essentially the same thing as multiplayer in FPS or RTS games. You kill other players because it's the only thing to do. And whether or not you participate in consentual pvp should not be taken into account when distinguishing between carebears and griefers, because both will engage in consentual pvp from time to time.
That said, i think you vastly underestimate the % of carebears. 35 is way too low. I would guess more like 60-70.
Griefers grief for two reasons:
1. they are cruel and it makes them feel big
2. they get something tangible out of it (bounties, territory, political sway, etc)
The point is that they are selfish and do not feel bad about stomping other players into the ground.
As far as player alignment goes, i think it can be better arranged into 4 types (mimicked from the classification of sinners in dante's inferno, actually)
1. "Virtuous" - players who will not engage in nonconsentual pvp no matter what (carebears)
2. Vengeful - players who generally mind their own business unless someone messes with them first (most players including myself fall into this category, i think) - often called carebears by the more "evil" types
3. Violent - players who, unprovoked, actively go out and make life miserable for other players for selfish reasons (gankers, pk'ers)
4. Treacherous - players who intentionally earn and then betray the trust of other players for personal gain (scammers), usually under a veil of secrecy/anonymity
And i think it would be awesome if a MMO took these categories into account, providing tangible rewards for engaging in defining acts of their alignment. Unfortunately this becomes extremely difficult with #4, as computers are completely incapable of measuring intent. oh well, i can dream can't i
To a subset of the population, that risk of being smacked in the back of the head while harvesting or something, provides an "adrenaline rush" that they cannot live without. But that subset is very small.
Most players, as shown in survey, after survey, after survey, feel exactly as you say -- they want to have PVP when they are in the mood for it, but also want to be able to just relax and do some PVE without interference from other players, when in a different mood.
C
To a subset of the population, that risk of being smacked in the back of the head while harvesting or something, provides an "adrenaline rush" that they cannot live without. But that subset is very small.
Most players, as shown in survey, after survey, after survey, feel exactly as you say -- they want to have PVP when they are in the mood for it, but also want to be able to just relax and do some PVE without interference from other players, when in a different mood.
C
This is probably why eve has a leveling system that it does as in its time based rather than leveling based.
Isurus you make some very interesting points. I dont agree that the "carebear" community represents 70% however, unless you are grouping both 1-2 "Virtuous" and "Vengeful" together. Then I would say they represent even more then 70%. My original point of 35% was really meaning a group of players that would prefer absolutely no pvp at all under no circumstances, regardless of the rules involved. After thinking about it I think its actually slightly less then 35%.
By using your Dante's Inferno quote, my interpretation would leave groups 2-4 wanting some form of pvp (even if casual). I would also say that group 4 represents an extremely minority of players less then 2% and group 3 represents less then 10%. I feel that GM's should have as many tools as possible to find people "Treacherous", and when they do they really should perma ban them. Most people would be surprised how many chances GM's give these people. Especially considering how destructive they are.
If it is agreed that both group 3 and 4 represent a small minority of players, then why do game designers not put in place rulesets to stop the behavior completely? Put in serious consequences if done, or remove the ability to do it? To me it seems the designers are always making an extreme choice between having either PVE only, or letting PK's/Griefers/Gankers to run amok. Why are they not taking some middle ground on the issue?
To further the point of greifing. It seems like on a server its always the same very few players inconveniencing many people.
Example:
WoW, UO (name the pvp game). New low level character is pveing, in the middle of a 10 min quest or at half life on a mob, bamm griefer double your levels comes and kills you. Its not just a random griefer, its the same griefer everyone knows them and has been doing this all month, you log on your high level char, or call in a friend for help, but when you get there the griefer is gone or you just cant find them. Sure you level out of the zone, move on to the next griefers persons spot... meanwhlie this person is harassing hundreds of newbs day in day out.
I could probably name about a ten players on the entire WoW server thats has around 10k players on it(thats less then 1/10 of 1% of the entire server), these people account for around 80% of the incidents. So why are these 10 people not banned or removed? Sure in WoW they dont get "rewards" for the behavior, but thats not the point, thier reward is pissing people off. Its bad customer service for the game. You would think the game would have an interest in removing the behavior?
I hear ya, Brainy. So many of these MMOs i've played are extremely lacking in the pvp department. And you're right, they tend to polarize pvp one way or the other. The pvp becomes either 100% consentual or utter gank fests. Where is the middle ground??
Take wow for example. PVE servers are strictly carebear. The only pvp you see is in battlegrounds and it's 100% consentual. On the pvp servers you have battlegrounds (again) and "open" faction pvp (lv60s in faction x ganking lv30s in faction y). Duels aren't really deserving of mention.
Eve makes another great example. You can spend your whole career farming missions in emipre (hi security space) and never engage in pvp, or you can go out to low sec and into a world of gank-or-be-ganked (especially bad in the 0.4 border systems). Corporate warfare occurs in 0.0 but that is end game content and i haven't reached it yet (can't comment).
The only MMO i've played that (imo) got pvp right was Lineage 2. L2's open pvp model is basically nonconsentual pvp with consequences. Outside of towns, you are allowed to attack anyone anywhere. However, when you PK another player, you gain karma. Until you work the karma off (through killing mobs or dying repeatedly) you have a very high chance of dropping valuable items, which are usually very difficult to get.
Unfortunately L2's pvp system comes with a ton of excess baggage (ie. the rest of the game), otherwise i would still be playing it.
Open pvp with consequences is (again, IMO) the way to go. You shouldn't be able to toggle off "pvp mode", and you shouldn't be able to gank other people without putting something on the line.
This ideal pvp system doesn't just pop up out of nowhere, it requires effort on the designer's part. You need to encourage (but not force) player conflict. Casually competing over resources is one way to do it.
In L2, much of the player conflict arises from someone trying to muscle in on someone else's territory (the mob spawn they have staked out or whatever). Sure this becomes one sided at times but it also can create some very interesting conflicts, as the opposing sides try different strategies or call for backup. And more often than not, the defeated team plans their coup back in town and returns for some more action.
Rarely do you see PK squads ganking lowbies because of the consequences of racking up karma (unless it's a PK character, but even then those are better spent on your enemies rather than on random newbs). You see ganking in clan warfare but usually if two clans are going at it, they are reasonably evenly matched in the first place.
I could go on but i'll cut myself off here. There will always be ganking and always be consentual pvp but the bulk of it should be somewhere in between. And that is the hallmark of a quality mmo.