Originally posted by mixedguy: Its much simpler and you only need to press one button to get places instead of pressing 4 buttons just to do the same thing... Is there really a benefit of WASD controls in a MMORPG that determines dodge and block by stats and has auto attack??
Er, actually it isn't easier. It is far harder. You're not pressing one button to get somewhere, you're pressing one button repeatedly to get somewhere. With WASD I can press and hold W and go forward indefinitely. With Click-to-Move I click in the distance, get there, stop. Click again, get there, stop.
WASD provides for finer grained control of where you are going. Furthermore it disconnects camera control from movement control. It further disconnects selection from movement.
Finally MMORPGs, at least western MMORPGs, are not purely stat based. I have been using positional play ever since my first days of Asheron's Call. There were several techniques for a melee class in AC to control how much they got hit based on exactly where they stood. Since then games like DAoC & WoW have positional play built into their stats. In DAoC some moves were not available unless you were to the front, or sides, or back of the mob. In WoW some moves are available only from the back and certain defenses do not work when you are behind the mob (or they behind you).
WASD + Mouse allows the user to move and select independently. Sure, you think, that CtM does the same. Ok, change directions while trying to select a target. With WASD I just change the key(s) I am pressing. With CtM I have you move the mouse away from my target, click, move the mouse back to my target and... what happens if I have to change direction again? See the problem?
As for camera control I can look around just fine. I can run forward and swing the camera 360 and never change the direction of my movement. But with WASD I can do 2 things CtM cannot. First, with games that switch AD from left/right to strafe left/right on camera lock, I can now move left, rotate camera right. Or I can turn my character one direction and face another for those positional combat calculations. Or, even more basic. I can back up without having to first look back to find something to click on!
CtM is fine for some isometric or pseudo-isometric games (Dungeon Siege 1 comes to mind). But for MMORPGs, especially the more complex ones, it is vastly inferior. It offers less control and is harder to manipulate. It is the choice of programmers that can't handle a huge amount of inputs. The only area where CtM is superior is that it is less events from the client to the server and vice versa.
Many thanks to the original poster for warning people away from this retched interface.
i hate wasd, im a smoker and like to have 1 hand free for beer or a smoke..
This is a MAIN aspect of eastern games, Korea for example think that way, play with 1 hand.
Westerners usually prefer using both hands.
This will always be clashing; I don't see an easy way around. Westerners usually like to feel immersed in the game, using and needing to use both hands really does matter a LOT. I honestly don't see a way to conciliate both play styles, except maybe making differents servers and letting the peoples pick the easy 1 hand or the "hard" 2 hands servers.
Korea is passing time/socialising, West is PLAYING. Someone playing will always prefer using both hands and a more immersive setting, while someone "casual" about the game (casual in term of requirements of your attention and effort to play, aka not time, Korea spent as much time than the west playing), will rather keep 1 hand free to smoke, drink, phone, whatever else not related to the game.
PS: Maybe a "joystick" played with the feets could replaces WASD in Korea and work well, I don't know. I am nearly certain such a joystick wouldn't be successfull in NA, can always try and see, but shouldn't expect much success...NAers like WASD. Even RPGers like me who hardly ever play a shooter. Such a joystick keep a hand free for smokers and Korean markets...and this market seem wild enought to me to actually enjoy such an innovation...maybe I am wrong however...anyway, moving your character with your feets IS immersive, leaving the mouse or the keyboard for action, played with hands, again IS immersive. The "Joystick" for the feets could take the position of 1 (or both) feets to determine in which direction you move or if you strafe or whatever...1 feet ahead = walking...2 feets = running...1 feet in the corner left and another just ahead = running and leaning on the right...anyway, it is immersive. You don't want buttons for the feets, just the overall position of 1...or both! But a button could be for jumps, yet, I don't like the idea of a button, feets are "powerful" and joysticks are not, so removing the button is a bright move as you remove 90% of the stress use on the joystick for the feets. I see it as a HUGE box, just considering feets positions...
You do use poth hands, one hitting numbers for skills and one for moving and such. BTW, if you have 40+ techniques it is much easier to use point-and-click, and even if you do prefer WASD, that doesn't mean you review the game and give it 0 because it didnt suit your anal preferences.
Originally posted by max321 even if you do prefer WASD, that doesn't mean you review the game and give it 0 because it didnt suit your anal preferences.
Uh, no, that is exactly what you do. It's called a deal breaker for that person. It is also why mmorpg.com presents the user's score as an average of all the reviews. Sorry, but you don't give every game a glowing review if you think it's tripe just because other people like it. That's not the point of the review system.
The click to move system wasn't the most annoying part of 9 Dragons, getting caught on scenery could really bug me, but for me the worst part to this game was I found it difficult to navigate from some maps into the next, it took me nearly 1 hour to find the exit between 2 zones once, because the map didn't show you where the exit was.
I absolutely hate WASD. (And yes, I'm American and no, I don't smoke.)
I completely disagree with the "immersion" factor some people are listing as benefits of WASD. You are sitting at a computer with your hands on a mouse and a keyboard whether you are using point-and-click or WASD. It's not like WASD magically puts an axe in one hand and a shield in another. It's not like you're using your actual feet to direct WASD. The only reason you feel that WASD is more immersive is because you're not used to point-and-click. If you gave it the time to get used to it you'd realize that there is no difference in immersion.
Basically, I think most posters are basing their opinions of point-and-click off of a very few games they've played (and most likely, free-to-play games which are usually not top quality.) When done right, point-and-click is just as enjoyable as WASD. IMO, it is more enjoyable. I really detest WASD games, they feel much more clunky and cumbersome. I feel like I can respond and act much more quickly with point and click than with WASD.
/agree OP Click-to-move is the devil. Thank you for sharing this -- I can mark 9 Dragons off my list of games to think about. In the end, it IS a matter of opinion, but if WASD is not an option, then neither is my playing it.
^^ what others have said I was going to try this out I had read some about it as soon as I seen its point click to move it won't even get installed onto my system I like to map my keys where I want em usually I want em on my arrow keys.I really do not see why it would be so hard to let players map there movement keys to whatever they want.
Well One on top of my head......macro.. If you can map keys, people will map it to where macro is possible. Like in most game, tabbing to cycle target, 9Dragons...you have to click for target. Most macro user isn't skilled enough to use mouse macro......Click to move isn't so bad, you don't have to click, stop, click again to go to a place. There's several ways to travel without multiple clicking. If you want an npc....just click their name, then you'll automaticly start walking up to it. If you want to go someplace that you don't want to lightfoot to cause it's too close, but too far for 1 click. Just click into the sky into the direction you are heading, you'll walk into that direction until something gets in your way. Also, lightfoot is a travel system that uses mouse camera to coordinate, while holding alt. It's a good F2P game ,
The click to move does kinda getting used to especially if I have been playing MMOs that uses WASD keys for the past 10+ years. Unfortunately, in asia the click to move is the industry standard norm while WASD is the north american industry standard. What I find peculiar is the lack of ability of customize your keys or the lack of option to either use WASD or click to move for a game that is suppose to appeal to the international market.
I personally don't mind either and to be honest with you prefer the click to move as this free's up my hand to do other things (and don't get any dirty ideas) i mean at least i can be chewing on a bit of pizza or having a smoke in my left hand whilst still being in the action with my right hand clicking and controlling away, so meh each man/woman to there own imo.
Hey, this may sound lil stupid but im excited i cant get too sleep and its all because this game looks so awesome that i decided to download it at quarter past 1 in the morning, well that and ivejust finished my 7th coffee in like an hour well i only gotta wait 33mins for it now and i would like to know if anyone has had any problems with logging in coz ive just deleted supreme destiny because files were misssing from the actual sites download so i couldnt play it.Also i tryed tantra online but very time i try to click on a server it would just sit there and do nothing ive had alot of dissapoinments with mmo's nd quite frakly i dont want to have any with this onebut now ive said that soething will most probably go wrong so wish me luck (the good kind)
Hey, this may sound lil stupid but im excited i cant get too sleep and its all because this game looks so awesome that i decided to download it at quarter past 1 in the morning, well that and ivejust finished my 7th coffee in like an hour well i only gotta wait 33mins for it now and i would like to know if anyone has had any problems with logging in coz ive just deleted supreme destiny because files were misssing from the actual sites download so i couldnt play it.Also i tryed tantra online but very time i try to click on a server it would just sit there and do nothing ive had alot of dissapoinments with mmo's nd quite frakly i dont want to have any with this onebut now ive said that soething will most probably go wrong so wish me luck (the good kind)
When you make your first character you get 3 server choices:
Nirvana (PvE) is the fully pve server and the only place you can get attacked is at the bloody plains and conquerer's cave. Even then they have strict rules against ganking newbies and repeated pks.
Asura (PvP) server is the fully pvp server. You can get attacked anywhere except the newbie zone and the teens zone and certain safety zone maps. If you are in a safety zone you can still get attacked but the attacker will suffer severe penalty (3 hours of being a criminal -- means they can get attacked by anyone without reprisal and attacked by NPC guards who will probably one shot them and make them lose XP/BP/Karma and there are guards in every city and zone entrance making their lives difficult). You don't lose anything aside from good karma when being pk'd no player looting either the pker gets karma points or black karma (for same side pk). Yes your own side can pk you provided they buy a mask (which cost 10K). Repeated pk is against the rules so if someone is harassing you like that you can report them and they will get banned. They have GMs that enforce very severe punishments against harassers that try to pk newbies or those that use foul language in the game. Also if you get caugh by GM using foul language you can get chat banned or squelched and you will not be able to use any of the chat channels or even regular chat.
Bardo (EU player) -- it's a server for european players.
click to move isn't all that bad when you think about it, it's uncomfortable and tricky at first, but after a while you really start to get used to it.
I liked this game and played for about a week or 2 but then i noticed most skills are identical with effects and power..Maybe im wrong but if u see a sacred flowers skills and compare it with a demons, they are pretty much identical..Same run and stun and the others match too..It got kind of boring and sort of didnt like it anymore. now just waiting for 2moons to come out
Thanks for the heads-up on the C2M interface. I was seriously considering trying out this game until I saw that. If other people like it, thats fine, but I've played C2M games aplenty, and WASD games, and I feel I have much more control and response with WASD, and C2M feels clunky and inaccurate.
My overall preferance would be to have them like WoW, where they provide the user with the abiltiy to choose their own preferance, and use whichever one they like the most. But most games don't realize that you can actually have both interfaces together.
Either way, C2M only is a dealbreaker for me, so thank you to the OP for alerting me.
I liked this game and played for about a week or 2 but then i noticed most skills are identical with effects and power..Maybe im wrong but if u see a sacred flowers skills and compare it with a demons, they are pretty much identical..Same run and stun and the others match too..It got kind of boring and sort of didnt like it anymore. now just waiting for 2moons to come out
that is because in general all clans are divided in 4 classes...warrior,buffer,mage and hybrid. All class in all clans have VERY LIKELY damage and tupe of skill...they just look different and their nameis different...probably they have slightly different damage...What really makes a different in 9 dragons is your status build and your equipment =D.... i reccomend hybrid class =D
and 2 points reminder for those new to 9d....Using Macro for increasing skills are not allowed....so as training your lightfoot by running to a wall....
If GM caught u doing that 2things....bye2 9d for u
If you are a decent gamer (and that's ALL I am) you forget it after an hour. The first hour will be a little confusing, then you just adapt, and it's a non point.
Much like a stickshift and an automatic car, some will swear by one, some by the other. Good drivers can use both and don't notice the difference after the first mile.
If you are a decent gamer (and that's ALL I am) you forget it after an hour. The first hour will be a little confusing, then you just adapt, and it's a non point. Much like a stickshift and an automatic car, some will swear by one, some by the other. Good drivers can use both and don't notice the difference after the first mile.
That's completely incorrect, there is a huge difference between manual and automatic cars, and generally speaking automatics are easier to use, but don't give you as much control or potential performance. Manuals are harder to manage and have a steeper learning curve, but once you become familiar with them, you're able to get much more power out of your car. Similar to WASD, its a little more intensive than click to move, in terms of having to move your fingers around more etc. but it allows you a much deeper sense of control over your character, in my opinion. Click to move to me though is simply just awkward and imprecise.
Personally I would prefer that more games have the option for both like WoW, but in leiu of that, most American gamers that I know IRL will not play a game if it is C2M (including myself), something design companies should consider if trying to build a game for our market.
Comments
Er, actually it isn't easier. It is far harder. You're not pressing one button to get somewhere, you're pressing one button repeatedly to get somewhere. With WASD I can press and hold W and go forward indefinitely. With Click-to-Move I click in the distance, get there, stop. Click again, get there, stop.
WASD provides for finer grained control of where you are going. Furthermore it disconnects camera control from movement control. It further disconnects selection from movement.
Finally MMORPGs, at least western MMORPGs, are not purely stat based. I have been using positional play ever since my first days of Asheron's Call. There were several techniques for a melee class in AC to control how much they got hit based on exactly where they stood. Since then games like DAoC & WoW have positional play built into their stats. In DAoC some moves were not available unless you were to the front, or sides, or back of the mob. In WoW some moves are available only from the back and certain defenses do not work when you are behind the mob (or they behind you).
WASD + Mouse allows the user to move and select independently. Sure, you think, that CtM does the same. Ok, change directions while trying to select a target. With WASD I just change the key(s) I am pressing. With CtM I have you move the mouse away from my target, click, move the mouse back to my target and... what happens if I have to change direction again? See the problem?
As for camera control I can look around just fine. I can run forward and swing the camera 360 and never change the direction of my movement. But with WASD I can do 2 things CtM cannot. First, with games that switch AD from left/right to strafe left/right on camera lock, I can now move left, rotate camera right. Or I can turn my character one direction and face another for those positional combat calculations. Or, even more basic. I can back up without having to first look back to find something to click on!
CtM is fine for some isometric or pseudo-isometric games (Dungeon Siege 1 comes to mind). But for MMORPGs, especially the more complex ones, it is vastly inferior. It offers less control and is harder to manipulate. It is the choice of programmers that can't handle a huge amount of inputs. The only area where CtM is superior is that it is less events from the client to the server and vice versa.
Many thanks to the original poster for warning people away from this retched interface.
Not just another pretty color.
This is a MAIN aspect of eastern games, Korea for example think that way, play with 1 hand.
Westerners usually prefer using both hands.
This will always be clashing; I don't see an easy way around. Westerners usually like to feel immersed in the game, using and needing to use both hands really does matter a LOT. I honestly don't see a way to conciliate both play styles, except maybe making differents servers and letting the peoples pick the easy 1 hand or the "hard" 2 hands servers.
Korea is passing time/socialising, West is PLAYING. Someone playing will always prefer using both hands and a more immersive setting, while someone "casual" about the game (casual in term of requirements of your attention and effort to play, aka not time, Korea spent as much time than the west playing), will rather keep 1 hand free to smoke, drink, phone, whatever else not related to the game.
PS: Maybe a "joystick" played with the feets could replaces WASD in Korea and work well, I don't know. I am nearly certain such a joystick wouldn't be successfull in NA, can always try and see, but shouldn't expect much success...NAers like WASD. Even RPGers like me who hardly ever play a shooter. Such a joystick keep a hand free for smokers and Korean markets...and this market seem wild enought to me to actually enjoy such an innovation...maybe I am wrong however...anyway, moving your character with your feets IS immersive, leaving the mouse or the keyboard for action, played with hands, again IS immersive. The "Joystick" for the feets could take the position of 1 (or both) feets to determine in which direction you move or if you strafe or whatever...1 feet ahead = walking...2 feets = running...1 feet in the corner left and another just ahead = running and leaning on the right...anyway, it is immersive. You don't want buttons for the feets, just the overall position of 1...or both! But a button could be for jumps, yet, I don't like the idea of a button, feets are "powerful" and joysticks are not, so removing the button is a bright move as you remove 90% of the stress use on the joystick for the feets. I see it as a HUGE box, just considering feets positions...
You do use poth hands, one hitting numbers for skills and one for moving and such. BTW, if you have 40+ techniques it is much easier to use point-and-click, and even if you do prefer WASD, that doesn't mean you review the game and give it 0 because it didnt suit your anal preferences.
Uh, no, that is exactly what you do. It's called a deal breaker for that person. It is also why mmorpg.com presents the user's score as an average of all the reviews. Sorry, but you don't give every game a glowing review if you think it's tripe just because other people like it. That's not the point of the review system.
Not just another pretty color.
I absolutely hate WASD. (And yes, I'm American and no, I don't smoke.)
I completely disagree with the "immersion" factor some people are listing as benefits of WASD. You are sitting at a computer with your hands on a mouse and a keyboard whether you are using point-and-click or WASD. It's not like WASD magically puts an axe in one hand and a shield in another. It's not like you're using your actual feet to direct WASD. The only reason you feel that WASD is more immersive is because you're not used to point-and-click. If you gave it the time to get used to it you'd realize that there is no difference in immersion.
Basically, I think most posters are basing their opinions of point-and-click off of a very few games they've played (and most likely, free-to-play games which are usually not top quality.) When done right, point-and-click is just as enjoyable as WASD. IMO, it is more enjoyable. I really detest WASD games, they feel much more clunky and cumbersome. I feel like I can respond and act much more quickly with point and click than with WASD.
I really LOL'd at that.
Don't forget Canada! Any country that is/was a British Commonwealth country will use proper english spelling.
It's also flavour, favour, neighbour, savour, etc.
/agree OP
Click-to-move is the devil. Thank you for sharing this -- I can mark 9 Dragons off my list of games to think about.
In the end, it IS a matter of opinion, but if WASD is not an option, then neither is my playing it.
Well One on top of my head......macro.. If you can map keys, people will map it to where macro is possible. Like in most game, tabbing to cycle target, 9Dragons...you have to click for target. Most macro user isn't skilled enough to use mouse macro......Click to move isn't so bad, you don't have to click, stop, click again to go to a place. There's several ways to travel without multiple clicking. If you want an npc....just click their name, then you'll automaticly start walking up to it. If you want to go someplace that you don't want to lightfoot to cause it's too close, but too far for 1 click. Just click into the sky into the direction you are heading, you'll walk into that direction until something gets in your way. Also, lightfoot is a travel system that uses mouse camera to coordinate, while holding alt. It's a good F2P game ,
The word 'colour' is spelt that way in other regions of the world: namely the UK , Australia and New Zealand.
I really LOL'd at that.
lol, me too.
I haven’t tried this game yet, but I can enlighten you on why some games use click to move. Simply, it takes less bandwidth.
M59, UO, EQ1, WWIIOL, PS, EnB, SL, SWG. MoM, EQ2, AO, SB, CoH, LOTRO, WoW, DDO+ f2p's, Demos & indie alpha's.
The click to move does kinda getting used to especially if I have been playing MMOs that uses WASD keys for the past 10+ years. Unfortunately, in asia the click to move is the industry standard norm while WASD is the north american industry standard. What I find peculiar is the lack of ability of customize your keys or the lack of option to either use WASD or click to move for a game that is suppose to appeal to the international market.
I personally don't mind either and to be honest with you prefer the click to move as this free's up my hand to do other things (and don't get any dirty ideas) i mean at least i can be chewing on a bit of pizza or having a smoke in my left hand whilst still being in the action with my right hand clicking and controlling away, so meh each man/woman to there own imo.
Hey, this may sound lil stupid but im excited i cant get too sleep and its all because this game looks so awesome that i decided to download it at quarter past 1 in the morning, well that and ivejust finished my 7th coffee in like an hour well i only gotta wait 33mins for it now and i would like to know if anyone has had any problems with logging in coz ive just deleted supreme destiny because files were misssing from the actual sites download so i couldnt play it.Also i tryed tantra online but very time i try to click on a server it would just sit there and do nothing ive had alot of dissapoinments with mmo's nd quite frakly i dont want to have any with this onebut now ive said that soething will most probably go wrong so wish me luck (the good kind)
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
When you make your first character you get 3 server choices:
Nirvana (PvE) is the fully pve server and the only place you can get attacked is at the bloody plains and conquerer's cave. Even then they have strict rules against ganking newbies and repeated pks.
Asura (PvP) server is the fully pvp server. You can get attacked anywhere except the newbie zone and the teens zone and certain safety zone maps. If you are in a safety zone you can still get attacked but the attacker will suffer severe penalty (3 hours of being a criminal -- means they can get attacked by anyone without reprisal and attacked by NPC guards who will probably one shot them and make them lose XP/BP/Karma and there are guards in every city and zone entrance making their lives difficult). You don't lose anything aside from good karma when being pk'd no player looting either the pker gets karma points or black karma (for same side pk). Yes your own side can pk you provided they buy a mask (which cost 10K). Repeated pk is against the rules so if someone is harassing you like that you can report them and they will get banned. They have GMs that enforce very severe punishments against harassers that try to pk newbies or those that use foul language in the game. Also if you get caugh by GM using foul language you can get chat banned or squelched and you will not be able to use any of the chat channels or even regular chat.
Bardo (EU player) -- it's a server for european players.
click to move isn't all that bad when you think about it, it's uncomfortable and tricky at first, but after a while you really start to get used to it.
I actually dislike wasd moving in mmorpg´s.
I rather have my left hand free to spam skills, then point and click skills using the mouse? If thats what u W,A,S,D ´ers are doing.
L2 Addict since - 10 april 2004 07:40:22
Welcome to the Lineage II Open Beta. -
I could never really get into this game but it might be because of the new silkroad update but i'm not sure.
I started to play but then I just stopped played a little voyage century and then some silkroad but i was never Just amazed by this game.
I liked this game and played for about a week or 2 but then i noticed most skills are identical with effects and power..Maybe im wrong but if u see a sacred flowers skills and compare it with a demons, they are pretty much identical..Same run and stun and the others match too..It got kind of boring and sort of didnt like it anymore. now just waiting for 2moons to come out
Thanks for the heads-up on the C2M interface. I was seriously considering trying out this game until I saw that. If other people like it, thats fine, but I've played C2M games aplenty, and WASD games, and I feel I have much more control and response with WASD, and C2M feels clunky and inaccurate.
My overall preferance would be to have them like WoW, where they provide the user with the abiltiy to choose their own preferance, and use whichever one they like the most. But most games don't realize that you can actually have both interfaces together.
Either way, C2M only is a dealbreaker for me, so thank you to the OP for alerting me.
and 2 points reminder for those new to 9d....Using Macro for increasing skills are not allowed....so as training your lightfoot by running to a wall....
If GM caught u doing that 2things....bye2 9d for u
If you are a decent gamer (and that's ALL I am) you forget it after an hour. The first hour will be a little confusing, then you just adapt, and it's a non point.
Much like a stickshift and an automatic car, some will swear by one, some by the other. Good drivers can use both and don't notice the difference after the first mile.
Personally I would prefer that more games have the option for both like WoW, but in leiu of that, most American gamers that I know IRL will not play a game if it is C2M (including myself), something design companies should consider if trying to build a game for our market.