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main thing needing fixing IMO
shane910
Member Posts: 359
We all know they need to fix the bugs, but untill they realize that they need to cap the verm(per month) and cap in game item prices in some way , they will get no more money from me.
All these minor fixes and new gear is cool and all that, but the in-game cost / IRL cost is just unacceptable. Fix that if you want some kind of a player base to actualy play the game(or test as it would be).
For those that dont know you get 5000ses for game purchase,thats supposed to last a month, and for about $39 usd you get 10000ses.
Then to break down your needs(for combat gear) a helm goes for about 2500ses a sheild about 500ses(cheap crap shield) and a sword is arround 1000ses (basic crap sword) you can try to find a hamatta but usualy can only find the one for 20000ses(or more cant remember) And yeah some prices may have changed a bit but for the most part they are the same, and seeing no significant change.
Once you see (from playing) that the costs are astronomical, you get sick to your stomach, then you realize that all your gear is slowly breaking (to be lost through durability) or being lost from laggy battles(one at a time), you double over and get sick again... Then you wonder to yourself, WTF were they thinking?
Currently, the wealthy(IRL) are the only ones that benifit from the verm... they need a cap on how much you can buy per month to better your character in game. I dont think that I need to elaborate on that too much, a child can figure out why thats bad buisness.
They(the devs) need to make a in game list of every item, resource and building that is craftable or harvestable. Then on that list(in game) they add to it, their set prices. Those set prices can be changed by them(if needed). The price you can set to each item(for sale)would be determined by the list price(devs price list) and able to be marked up(or down) by the player to a set percentage determined by the devs.
The crafting times would undoubtably need to be addressed to make sure that the set price of each item or resource is comparable to the time needed to craft or harvest. This could be avoided by uping the amout of ses you get for your verm (once the item price caps are in place) but would make the ammount of ses carried/needed a very large number and it seems silly... The logical choice would be reevaluate craft times then lower prices and cap them(allowing a percentage mark up).
This would make the game more playable for casual players(for crafting) as well as balance the economy by not allowing the player base to sabatoge the economic stability(of the game) through constantly increasing(and unrealistic) price increases. The devs could (once implemented) establish a way to determine if the items prices need to be increased or lowered and have it done automaticaly, possibly by the # of sales or lack of. That info could be also be given to the player crafters/merchants upon request , to help them determine what to make in the future by seeing whats hot and whats not and also when they are hot or not.( like seasonal items)
This is a very realistic system , similar to the system we currently use to prevent price gouging in current markets. ( better known as highway robbery)
Well thats my 2 cent.
Comments
From what i understand the ills you mentioned are a function of the small player base and therefore the lack of demand for goods which means the prices are sky high. The impression from the forums is that if you join a guild as a fighter they will give you some equipment and help you train so you don't need to spend your VERM.
The game is touted as a revolutionary experiment at an economic model and it is interesting then that this seems to the one of the main problems atm. I think KFR said that there are some mechanisms for generating local demand and supply in towns so that invisible pc inhabitants of corstopium etc do buy and sell to merchants, this is clearly not a strong enough effect though as player smiths etc have sold all their stuff to the NPC merchants who are now not buying anything else and also have full stocks at sky high prices. Any artificial buying and selling seems to be dwarfed by the players buying and selling which at the moment as i said earlier is more supply than demand.
As skilling is a grind i imagine that many smiths are just churning out all sorts of armour and selling it to the merchants, so it would be better to try and get your gear off the other players rather than the merchants. Players are eager to sell their excess stuff and will not be charging 20k ses!
BTW what is the lag/bug situation like atm? Is it more stable or just as buggy but with more content?
A house, but I like to take care of myself. I'm not a mooch. If everyone does, as I see sugested a bunch, just join a house and get all the gear ya need, noone ever has to verm... kinda defeats the point. You should need to verm on average about every 30 days played, and playing average play lengths. Play more need more play less need less, but you should need to verm one way or the other. Main problem now is,as I said if you verm you are just wasting money... everything costs too much, and thats player or NPC dosent matter. $300 dollar house is a perfect example... Ridiculous.
Other than that tho, yeah comeing allong great, tons of updates and lots of new gear(that will be outrageously overpriced i'm sure) tracking,hunting,tents and lots of other stuff. Its getting there slowly but surely. Bugs are to a minimum(for me) only crashed 1 or twice and not in quite a while. So they are comeing allong.
As for the revolutionary economy thing... no. But they are close. People say its gonna magicaly get better once all the stuff is in and more people are here to get supply and demand right... ok.
How is that gonna stop one(IRL rich) person from buying everything people are selling for normal (average) prices, and selling it all for 2 or 3 time that? Its not, and that is the same dam problem that every MMO I have played has...EVERY ONE!
The only thing that will keep it in balance, no matter 2 or 2000 people playing, is to have set prices(with a mark up/down percentage). This is how we keep our economy in balance and it is how the romans did it too(we got it from them remember)
If our economy was like this(or any MMO) we would have chaos. Imagine you buy bread from food mart this week for $2.00 a loaf, as you have for years now. You go in the next week and it is $10.00 a loaf... following week its $5.00 then the next its $15.00... not to mention cost of housing cost for gas cost for cloth(all fluxing mind you) How the hell could you build a economy on that? How could your people live? Employers wouldnt know what to pay. You would never know if your weeks worth of work would even pay enough to feed you or your family... CHAOS...
And thats why the MMO economy(all of them) fails. If it was up to the players/people everything they make or try to sell would be worth a million dollars. That why the government now(as they did then) steps in and put checks and balances in place to make sure they dont fall in to total anarchy.
Sad side note:
Altho with gas prices they seem to be letting it slip. And as a result we see increased prices accross the board for bread, milk ect... to cover increased transportation costs. But you can bet your sweet A** that if they saw the people freak out start looting and stealing gas and food or destroying stuff cuz of high prices , those prices would drop instantly and we would see new technology flood the market in the following years. As it happened tho we saw drop in sales, increase in unemployment, slowed construction (all over) and that was enough for them to lower the prices (just a bit) to keep the chaos in check. This is after they sustained the high price long enough to make the slight drop seem like a relief(even tho its not). Yes governments suck ballz, but they are not completly stupid. And as I said they got it from the romans.
Anyawys, before I get pissed thinking bout all that
RB could use this to keep the economy in balance, by changing the set price (on their list) to increase or decrease sales in certain areas that are stagnant or booming. An example would be clothing types(I dont think seasonal effects are in game but just an example). Long sleeved(winter clothes) sell for more in the winter and less in the summer. RB could have set times(per year) the price changes go in effect and players should/could plan accordingly. Could even save money buy buying your winter clothes in the summer when their cheap.
I hope they look in to it, atleast give it some thought to how it would help the economy and the game overall, by implementing a checks and balance system(like mentioned) of their own.
Sorry bout the double post but I saw something in the news that I had to mention on this topic.
BEIJING(AP) A Chinese business executive was sentenced to death for swindling $385 million from investors in a bogus ant-breeding scheme, a court official said Thursday.
Wang Zhendong, chairman of Yingkou Donghua Trading Group Co., had promised returns of up to 60 percent for buying kits of ants and breeding equipment from two companies he set up, the reports said.
Ants are used in some traditional Chinese medicinal remedies, which can fetch a high price. Wang sold the kits, which cost $25, for $1,300, the Xinmin Evening News and other newspapers reported.
Sentenced to death!!! Mabe we should just do that to the players that do that same thing in MMOs
This is a clear demonstration however, on how our govs keep prices in check and keep scams and rip offs like that from happening. For the U.S , death for that seems harsh, but really it would save us tons of money in taxes each year if they did.
lol, aside from that the best thing they can do it stop it from happening in the game (without
) would be to add the caps as I suggested.
Every item already has it own base price, and everything is already manipulated at a percentage.
All NPC merchants buy things at 100% market price and sells them at 300% of market price.
lets use dung as a example,
At the beginning of time, dung cost 3 ses apiece.
you bought from merchants at 300% of that price
Today it costs 65 ses a piece when you buy it, thats like a 622% mark up.
The cause of the insane price you may ask?
Its because animals were not in and dung could only be bought. So with every hut built, which requires 500 pieces of dung, the price of dung went up due to the demand.
Here is the paradox, there is no supply so the prices keep rising, but the merchants have an infinite supply, he just restocks when he is done with his current batch.
With the dozens of huts already built by Augir and friends alone, he has drove the price of dung through the roof. Probably contributing to the 300 dollars price tag on the thing.
That or he decided to factor in the price of you buying every pound of materials, unrealistic to say the least, because everything can be gathered for a fraction of the price then buying from a merchant.
In a perfect game, dung price would be kept in check by a constant supply of dung from animals, which we have lacked since the begging of the game, although animals are starting to appear now.
In the event a rich person starts buying up everything to sell at 900% market value, you would probably see an increase in supply as people all begin producing the same item. When that happens the prices should drop as everyone is trying to outsell the competition to make money.
KFR was quoted to say the VERM would be capped at release to prevent wealthy players from dominating. It never happened. He lied.
Anyone with sense knew the VERM was a money making scheme and the game was designed to force players to buy in game coin and that they would never cap it.
Isn't everything that has something to do with a company a money making scheme?
I understand what you are saying. However if they did put a cap on each items prices like what I suggested, as you said they did, the price of that dung would have never went up that high period. I mean a cap that keeps prices in acceptable ranges. And that they are not. (therefore they need to make some changes)
The rich person buying everything, as you say will just increase the supply and lower the price... never. Do you honestly think that crafters can keep up with a player buying items?(needed items) No, first you have to look at the time to make items(forever) then look at how long it takes to buy those items (split second) and you can come to the conclusion that a rich person can monoploize the market easily.(with this game in its current form) Dosent matter if it is 100 people crafting the same thing(needed thing mind you) one player could buy it all and set it for sale at a ridiclous price. And since it is a needed item(everyone needs one) and all the cheap ones are now expensive ones, the players making and selling them for cheap will realize they are losing money to the rich person. So do you honestly think they are gonna keep giving them to the rich person(for cheap) to make a killing on ... no, they will mark them up some too, and it just keeps on(a vicious circle) especialy if the rich person can still monopolize by buying them all,(and selling for higher yet) because they are needed items.
That would be reduced alot tho by caping the ammount of verm you can buy each month (as they said they would, but havent) they wouldnt want to throw money away like that if it may leave them broke for the month.(unable to rehire slaves and laborers or buy materials)
The ammount of ses given for verm($39-10k ses) needs to be looked at. As it is 10k ses will last all of 3 or 4 quality purchases, if the overall item prices were lowered accross the board then it can be left the same. But currently the prices are stupid and players are expected(if they verm for a living instead of mooch off guilds) to buy astronomical ammounts of verm to survive.(stay in gear) So basiclay the best option is to not verm and mooch off ones who have, or have found a way to avoid verm altogether.
This in istself is stupid(on RB's behalf) because they are cuting their own income so that one or two people can set up their future monopoly... just dumb.
The fact that people are walking arround with 20k ses to make purchases it stupid too(mainly cuz of high prices they have too) but do you really think thay could walk arround with that much coin??? try walking arround with just $1000.00 (a fraction of what 20k ses would be) in coin just once, and thats even useing nickles, dimes and quarters. It aint gonna happen , or you wont get far . lol
Hope they wake up from behind their keyboards soon and fix this economy ...
I don't agree at all with everything being too expensive. Sure if you never do anything in game to earn money - it gets expensive - IF you try to live like a rich nobleman (peasants could hardly afford armor and helmets in the ancient world). I think the prices for weapons and equipment are generally fair and realistic, allthough not cheap.
No way, If you take into account that no matter what you buy, it is gonna dissapear(break through durability) or be looted when you die. That instantly put those prices in the ridiclous area of the scale.
When you take into account that not losing items (to durability) or not being able to loot items(on death), is not realistic, you realize that you cant change that.Only thing they can do to make it better(more realistic) would be mabe full loot.
But then the prices would be an even bigger problem ...see my point? So lower prices would allow more purchases to balance out the fact that you will be losing more on death.
Also you arent taking into consideration the fact that verm is a sort of recruiting tool for this game(or supposed to be). If you dont like it or are not having fun, you dont have to verm. Or if you dont get to play as much as everyone else you dont have to verm as often as they would. And if you dont verm at all ,you can still play, you would just be poor like a slave in one of the military formations instead of the one leading it... It is not being used like this at all... it is being used only by the folks that are setting up monopolies while the game is under populated.(because of the crazy prices and unnessairy and self defeating time sinks)
If it was used correctly you would have everything you need and almost everything you want while verming monthly(reward for verming). But you should have to keep verming monthly or you will slowly lose it all over time (like ultimas housing was with repairs). If you decide to stop verming or never verm you should be like a slave or a pesant and be the fodder on the feild or the laborers in the feilds.Still able to have fun,in the fight or helping craft, but earning just enough to get by.(from their player "master")
You would still be able to hire NPC laborors or slaves but player ones would be much more efficent.
The crafting times and skilling times should be drasticaly reduced, to remove the redundancy of the time sinks there, promoting more fun faster=more verm bought. (can craft more and faster, and can be effective in combat faster.also = more fun)
Thats the way they should start moving this game. Just my opinion here, but I believe if ya read it it makes perfect sence,and this is all stuff they could do through changing the values that they currently have set in a few areas of the game..(if they have caps in like yall say)
You can craft faster, i.e. more when you have multiple people working on the same project.
What would normally take 4 hours to make can be made in an hour if you have a few friends help.
On a side note, if you manage to run a successful business you wont have to verm as much as the next guy.
Yeah yeah, I know . But what noone seems to want to hear, is that the fact that it takes 4 hours to make anything especialy now when all you can make is small stuff (no big stuff in sight), is dumb as hell and clearly not thought out.
And to have to wait for 3 other people(if you can find them) to come help you just to be able to make that small item in an hour isnt much better of an argurment. I mean seriously an hour.... a hour WTF??? I guess in their eyes we all have no lives or jobs to constrict our time. (and we havent even started to make large projects)
Cant wait till they pop in the big stuff and make and the rest of the (20) ppl in the community drop out, because they are tired of falling asleep while trying to add one peice of stone to the new colleseum(every 30 seconds), for the next 3 months to complete it , but I guess the good part would be that you could finish it in one month if you got 3 ppl helping....
I mean come on ...
That may be slightly exagerated , and I emphasize slightly, but if you look at the times for the small stuff you can make, then compare that to making something 10 -20 times larger(like church or colleseum) you may as well say 3 months cuz noone will make any. Then add the fact that (supposedly ) we will be able to destroy buildings and all(someday), you can see that it would be a waste of time anyways, to put that much effort and time into something that can be gone (snap) just like that.
Anyways people liked this and wanted this to be able to play it as a game. If we just wanted a history lesson we got the history channel. If we are gonna spend that much RL time in this game building houses and temples, nearly what it would take to actualy make one (of the same quality) in IRL, I want some RL money compensation for my time I make $25.00 an hour, and you can make that check out to Shane.
The only way it would work in its current form (and it would be a stretch) would be to do like that one game did and allow you to withdraw real money out of the game if you were able to invest enough to , like you said run a successfull buisness. And I dont see that happening at all lol.
Basicly as you say, you have to verm you rear off to get enough ses to have a successfull buisness in game, then you have to spend that ses on the outrageously high priced items, in order to make the product to sell, where you have to mark that finished product up to even more extortionate levels just to make a proffit, witch leads us back to the main problem of the game ASTRONOMICAL PRICES with no checks and balance(working)...
makes ya dizzy huh.
They just need to fix their dam game, dont defend em.
Waaaaaaaaaaa! Everything is too expensive!
Waaaaaaaaaaa! It takes too long to craft things!
Waaaaaaaaaaa! I shouldn't have to work together with ANYBODY to do my thing in game!
Waaaaaaaaaaa! All those evil rich people have all the advantages in the game!
Waaaaaaaaaaa! I should be able to defeat all enemies after one hour of training!
Waaaaaaaaaaa! The government should implement prices controls immediately!
Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
/grabs tissue
Wow, lol, I guess we see the extent of your mentality. How old are you like 10? Grow up bud.
If you cant think of a constructive or intelligent thing to say , best bet is to not open your mouth at all , hasn't your mommie told you that yet?
This is supposed to have a ring of authenticity and I have no problem with large construction projects taking a large amount of time (as long as they last proportionately the right amount of time and don't decay away overnight), sure it should be scaled a little as you say people can't be in the game 24/7 and that is an important factor but the investment of time and effort should be expected and rewarded.
This game is a setting for long term projects and goals and the people who will enjoy the game are those with that amount of patience and dedication, i would think its pretty smart to be at work thinking of the building project you are doing in RV, its like a parallel life where you go home and step back a few hundred years into another life.
If that gaming idea isn't for you then i suggest this game might not be for you, if it gets nerfed to the point where anyone can throw up a colleseum in a week then any hope of an authentic game is gone.
It's historically accurate. It's mixed in with mud and clay to be used as a building material. This type of material has been used around the world. Here's something else you may like: with all the problems with implementing animals, dung is one of the most valuable resources in the game.
If you're building an mmorpg, or if you'd like to share ideas or talk about this industry, visit Multiplayer Worlds.
I do see both sides, trust me the realisim is great , like I said the depth to crafting is great, and I am a strong supporter of the realisim of Permanent Death.
But if they are gonna strike a balance, they need to strike in the begining of the game first. Yeah the cathedrals, bath houses, and colleseums should take longer because you dont want thousands everywhere. But rinky dink (yes their dung) huts, and other small craftables (tools weapons armor) should be faster to make, and shouldnt be such wastes of time and money gougers right in the begining of the game... save it for the larger mor expensive projects in the later areas of the game.
I dont even really need to keep pointing out that the current form is failing, most just shun it and dont look back, or just dog the game and tell people dont play dont play, I am saying it is good but needs work . Atleast respect my opinion here too... Players like the previous, that just come in and talk smack or just dismiss suggestions from players that just want to see improvments in areas and explain why and what, and they kill off any possible new recruits by showing the mentality of the community.(in a false light)
One can only assume , from the posts that we see here and other places, the large part of the community seems pissed and (looks) like they are starting to taking it out on the players that are suggesting to try anything. Or have even a opinion that is differing from their own. Thats not a friendly welcome or encouraging for anyone joining the community, and noticing areas that need improvment (in their eyes) and posting it as a concerned customer.
I know thats not the case as I am friends with quite few in game, and usualy enguage in friendly conversaiton with players I pass in game. But folks new to the forum dont know that and are immedatly turned off. Several of my friends wont even try the game just from reading rude comments to new (kinda dissapointed) players from old players spewing garbage out the mouth for no reason.
I am however seeing more and more of those types in game now, wonder if thats just what style of gamer they are trying for, rich stuck up children that got nothing better to do with their time than piss on someone elses hopes of having this game be fair to all different types of players. Hope I am wrong, but dosent seem like it now a days.
Why dose everyone seem to think that armour is a small thing?
Most tools can be made in half and hour if you know what your doing, and not counting the time of collecting resources which could vary depending where you are in the game.
Weapons take a few hours to make, but does everyone walk down the street with weapons now?
And high quality weapons take time to make anyways. You can actually use anything in your hands to attack someone, its just not as effective.
Armour is, even by todays standards, is not a small thing. the Lorica hamata, chain mail, was and is actually more difficult and more expensive to construct than say, Lorica Segmenta, what was worn by the legions.
Why dose everyone seem to think that armour is a small thing?
Most tools can be made in half and hour if you know what your doing, and not counting the time of collecting resources which could vary depending where you are in the game.
Weapons take a few hours to make, but does everyone walk down the street with weapons now?
And high quality weapons take time to make anyways. You can actually use anything in your hands to attack someone, its just not as effective.
Armour is, even by todays standards, is not a small thing. the Lorica hamata, chain mail, was and is actually more difficult and more expensive to construct than say, Lorica Segmenta, what was worn by the legions.
That would be because armour is much smaller when compared to a church , bath house or any other large project that should take longer to make.
Apparently, by todays standards this game is failing... by todays standards, people dont have the time to throw away that they had in romes time.
In order for you to create a successfull buisness in this game you have to invest ammounts of RL money that the average player cannot afford, and in order to make that investment worth while you have to invest ammounts of time in game that the average player does not have.
If they want this game to succede, then they need to make it more like a game, fun and also reasonable craft times, and less like a second job. In the end this is supposed to be a game.
I dont remember him saying that...he said they have alot of tools to to control the econ, one of them being to cap the VERM if the wealthy get out of hand...
as for the rest of this thread, i agree with who ever it was abouve...get a tissue
I have been playing for a while, and havent needed to tap the VERM once since day one.
quoted by Kanoth: http://mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/82172
Yes, there will be a limit. But since we dont know how the economy will do with 7500 people in game, we're waiting to see what happens before we set it.
Found it, KFR said on May 27th 2005 at 4:02pm:
"There probably will be a limit although not until we've had ample opportunity to work out what it should be.
-KFR"
Later on he takes away the "probably". Many people in the community thought a limit would be the best way to go here. We agreed.
Obviously RV will never have 7500 people in game,
but the game has been released for many months now and there is no excuse for not being able to set a VERM limit and announcing what that limit is.
also from this article KFR states: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/issue/40/3
"The company was founded specifically to do virtual economics," he says, "And the game came after that." So, they started the company based on virtual property and economics and the game came after that? "Precisely. Precisely. And I think that's pretty important."
This proves my point the Verm is a money making scheme all along and the focus of the game.
Well though it seems such a statement on the limit in VERM was made ,i think it will be a big mistake to make a limit now.
This was probably written when they hoped to have 5-10k active players.Ofc at the moment they are way below it .When i last logged on before xmas i would say even a couple of hundred active accounts is pretty optimistic.Has this changed i dunno.
Of this a good portion are probably "part time login" that would not spent a single dollar on verm.The company most likely relies on those left spending heavily on verm even if just as a means of donation (like one guy posted - he does not need more ses but wants to help the game keep running).
So imposing a limit now might produce a devastating blow money-wise to them.
Thats why , like I said in the OP, they have to lower the prices and times to acceptable levels first. That way when they cap the verm you can last a month on it.
It should be like a monthly fee... buy you only have to verm on average once a month. If you dont play often then your money would last longer than someone who does play alot. (thought thats how it was supposed to be) But either way you should have to verm on average once a month.
This would help with that too.
Those that dont verm at all should be the slaves and loaborers unable to recieve the citizen badges or lead a guild. And a citizen or guild leader who dosent verm for about 2 months should lose their status. Players that are slaves or laborers should have bonuses that make them work faster/harder to make them still sought after by other paying characters even tho they dont pay. This would create tons of stuff for those players to do, and since the stuff that they do is tasks given by other players in the community they would feel like a part of something. And once they feel apart of something they will most likley verm. Their are tons of other features about this I could add but I will leave that to your imaginations.
None of this would be terribly difficult to implement, most would just be changing some values, but all of it would make the game a more playable experiance.
Am I Khane? Yes. In disguise? No. I think it is pretty obvious...Khane, Shane... And this one came first so ya know, found the game here followed it from here.
As I said in the RV forums I am not wasting my time posting suggestions there anymore. But I still like the game and hope they make these much needed changes so I and others can finaly enjoy it too.
I am not gonna totaly give up hope on them , I want people to know it is a good game. However I also want to point out what they need to fix since nothing is being done in those areas. New gear and new graphics are fine and all but if it is too time constraining and too costly noone is gonna play it. I just hope they realize it before it is too late, and the games rep is completely ruined.
As I have said a thousand times , good luck to em, and if they do succede I will be the first to congradulate them and buy verm to show it. Till then I will keep saying what I have been saying since the games release, and hope they listen.