What is going wrong in the MMORPG world?

Zace

Just thought i'd open a can of worms  (ooh yummy).

Well Ive played MMORPGS since the start, and before that roleplaying games since the late 70s and computer games since 1980 (sinclaire zx-80).

I loved mmorpgs - everquest was amazing, ultima online just proved i want cut out to be a PvP person.  Since then ive played almost every game, and have been lucky enough to beta test a lot of them.

So how come i now dont have the 'get up and go' to play anything?  Sure EVE was my last game and if i had the finances i would probably still be playing it - but that isnt the reason I quit them all - and a game is only a game - its longevity is limited, only so many times you can do the same thing over, so a game has to evolve.

So what is the next big game?  or the next different game?  Vanguard was promising to be so different.... yet couldnt deliver.  Reminds me so much of  Horizons - a truly great game that just didnt have the backing it needed.

Who is developing a game that is going to truly evolve?

 

chiffington

The steadily declining originality in MMOs is a real shame.

I've actually come up with a whole new game which has the same VERY basic premise, but then takes the game to a whole new level.  I've planned out missions, quests, layouts, mythologies, combat types and systems...so much....but until I could actually trust someone to not sell off my ideas I'm stuck without suggesting things to the world.

At the moment MMOs are generally coming out of the 'cookie cutter', offering nothing more than another MMORPG with a different wrapper.

It's actually frustrating since there are solutions to it that I have...but I'd be ripped off.

Sooner or later people will catch up with my ideas - but it doesn't look like anytime soon.

Pirates of the Burning Sea looks like they've at least taken as new an approach they can, and I'd be interested to see how it pans out.

Strangely enough, EVE actually has some excellent ideas, and a premise that can be ever-expanded....if it wasn't all about the isk or whatever they're using nowadays.

 

Zace

I hear what you are saying Chiff, and have a few answers myself.  As you say you would either be ripped off or just watch the ideas go POOF into the ether of good gaming.  Ive been around sourceforge warching a few games being developed there, and sure they have some realy great ideas but you need to invest serious money to get a game launched that isnt a few mates... etc

You need to apporach a 'big' independent company...

As you say the current splurge of games all seem to be coming from the same sort of mould.  Secretly im hoping White Wolf/CCP will open up some dialogue for developers of their new world of darkness mmorpg.  After all EVE seems to answer quite a few questions - but im not really a spce ship kinda guy... give me a nice juicey mage

 

Carl132p

Originally posted by chiffington


The steadily declining originality in MMOs is a real shame.
I've actually come up with a whole new game which has the same VERY basic premise, but then takes the game to a whole new level.  I've planned out missions, quests, layouts, mythologies, combat types and systems...so much....but until I could actually trust someone to not sell off my ideas I'm stuck without suggesting things to the world.
At the moment MMOs are generally coming out of the 'cookie cutter', offering nothing more than another MMORPG with a different wrapper.
It's actually frustrating since there are solutions to it that I have...but I'd be ripped off.
Sooner or later people will catch up with my ideas - but it doesn't look like anytime soon.
Pirates of the Burning Sea looks like they've at least taken as new an approach they can, and I'd be interested to see how it pans out.
Strangely enough, EVE actually has some excellent ideas, and a premise that can be ever-expanded....if it wasn't all about the isk or whatever they're using nowadays.
 

Ripped off? If your looking for new things in games and you have the answer wouldnt someone taking you ideas and making a game out of it be a good thing? Even if your ideas are good until you make a game they arent worth anything. Besides you could post your ideas over and over on here and you would get the occasional yea that sounds ok but no one would use them guaranteed.

Dedthom

To a certain degree the problem is the public. Why come out with a more original game when you can make a mint from the same old crap? Also, to many games promise so much like Vanguard that when they come out people are disappointed because there expectations were set so high. It would seem that it is better to promise little and then wow people when you deliver more. But this also means that people will not be interested in development so investors will not invest unless you go gang busters with the wild promises of what you can do in game. When I started playing MMORPGs long ago with EQ I really felt it was a game you could play for ever, and to a large degree EQ is, but to many games now have an "end game", if I want end game I will play a really good single player RPG. So much disappointment with the industry and nothing on the horizon to change it. I put little faith in any game until it comes out and I have actually played it.

Faur

Like already mentioned, I feel the problem is that developers tend to "play it safe", and make games that they know people will like, based on what games that they liked before.

I read an interview the other day where a developer said he wasn't trying to make games people liked, but to make games people didn't know they would like. I wish more developers had that mentality.



Also in terms of pvp gameplay, I feel too many mmo's these days try to cater to both PvE purists and hardcore PvP'ers at the same time, which just doesn't work. PvP is not as engaging for pvp gamers when it's perfectly consentual and involves no form of long term risk or reward. PvE is not fun for pve gamers when you get ganked by people every 10 minutes.

I wish they'd start making more defined pve mmo's and pvp ones. These "pve mmo's with a little pvp on the side - if you want" ones just aren't working out for me. Right now the only reason I'm playing Eve is that it feels like the last pure pvp game with a solid metagame.

Eichenkatze

As everyone else here has put.



The decline in origionality.



Unfortunately for us gamers and hopefuls out here in the game world. We can't quite comprehend the fact that Game companies are just that... Companies. They aren't looking to make your biggest fantasy, or to make you a happy person. All they care about is numbers. Numbers in green and numbers on their servers. What sells, they make.



So when say... World of Warcraft came out and hit big? Alot of other companies took this and ran with it. We've had a surge of WoW look-alikes and old games gone WoW (a'la SWG) to try and make money. the corporate world is ruled by green, and it will never be any different. Which is sad because players tend to like the new and unfamiliar, not the old and mundane. I don't think the game corporations will ever learn this.

terrorantula

Companies don't wanna take risks these days because creating games costs LOTS more than they did.

Dantes77

Originally posted by chiffington


The steadily declining originality in MMOs is a real shame.
I've actually come up with a whole new game which has the same VERY basic premise, but then takes the game to a whole new level.  I've planned out missions, quests, layouts, mythologies, combat types and systems...so much....but until I could actually trust someone to not sell off my ideas I'm stuck without suggesting things to the world.
At the moment MMOs are generally coming out of the 'cookie cutter', offering nothing more than another MMORPG with a different wrapper.
It's actually frustrating since there are solutions to it that I have...but I'd be ripped off.
Sooner or later people will catch up with my ideas - but it doesn't look like anytime soon.
Pirates of the Burning Sea looks like they've at least taken as new an approach they can, and I'd be interested to see how it pans out.
Strangely enough, EVE actually has some excellent ideas, and a premise that can be ever-expanded....if it wasn't all about the isk or whatever they're using nowadays.
 

Games 101





That's a great site if you want to get into the industry as a designer. He offers loads of advice...



"The short answer is: "Great, you have an idea. Now start writing. (But, by the way, nobody will buy your idea, don't be silly!)" The long answer (why you need to write, what to write, and what to do with what you wrote) is below."

brostyn

Originally posted by terrorantula


Companies don't wanna take risks these days because creating games costs LOTS more than they did.

Not true. Bad management cost LOTS of money. Vanguard is a great example.

b0rderline99

originality in MMOs died with the canceling of Ultima X

altairzq

Originally posted by brostyn

Originally posted by terrorantula


Companies don't wanna take risks these days because creating games costs LOTS more than they did.

Not true. Bad management cost LOTS of money. Vanguard is a great example.

What he said is true. It always costs a lot of money, only with bad management you end up with a bad game.

Dedthom

Well, besides bad management, companies not wanting to take risks, and a lack of originality, MMORPGs no longer immerse you in the game world. The games are now about crunching numbers and leveling. Forget about community and PVP or RVR or what ever versus whatever. The games are designed to get the uber loot so you can hack up bigger monsters or players. This is where I think that the industry is in a rut. Grinding, no matter how much you tweak it or change it is still grinding. New innovations in player activities are sorely needed to invigorate the next generation of games.This is of course my opinion and reflects my paper and pencil RPG background.

ignisfatuus

Part of reason has to do with the genre still being in its nascent stage.  Yes, MMOGs have been around for awhile now, but they have not reached that next level of buzz and development money that is coming over the horizon.  Look at the revenue video games generate now (they exceeded box office receipts in 2005 [here's an article from BusinessWeek  www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_09/b3922094.htm]).  MMOGs may not make up a very large percentage of the overall pie, but they are most likely the way of the future as far as games are concerned. 



Despite the disappointing titles of late, the future should hold an increasing variety of engaging titles that will put us in the opposite of the situation we are now in; instead of a dearth of good games, we will have a glut.  And who can complain about that? 

Zace

Thanks for these replies - and keep it up.

As has been said, poor management can cause a lot of propblems.  As the market widens, more people hear of MMORPGs and decide to take a dable, then more people will want to try something different.  Take a for instance - look at frontier1859.com - there is a brilliant idea for a game, that as yet doesnt have enough commercial backing and the producers dont want to make a hash of it.  Look at the new shadowrun game - there was an opportunity for an awesome mmorpg, but the produces have made it into a FPS, this will work well, but there is so much more available to be done.  Certainly we can see good ideas all around, but commercialism takes precident.

As mroe and more MMORPGs appear then the users will gradually filter through to the games that they want to play - most havent been written.  For instance where are the games for the younger players?  We have toon town and..... ? hmmmm, WoW as its colourful and i know players younger than 13 get on to it  even though they arent allowed.

I believe the BBc will be producing a MMORPG environment, a complete persistent world, at some point, and this could be very interesting - but what sort of game will it be?  or will it be a game, or a learning environment... or news.... or.... well we just dont know.

All I do know is i want to play something, fun and interesting...... 

 

 

 

Rattrap

Originally posted by Zace



Who is developing a game that is going to truly evolve?
 

Complexity of MMO's is going downwards since the first minute it was developed.



Actually it is only gaming genre that is going trough backward evolution. Instead getting better and complexer , it is geting simpler , worse and more limited ....



From sandbox , skill based ,open pvp , housing , meaningfull economy and massive open world  - we are going towards handfull of classes with few skills, total instanced, pvp only in arenas no economy MMOs



And no MMO in sight is even announcing something diferent

Rohawn

Ya remember when it actually took you more than 5 minutes  to learn the interface and 2-3 weeks to figure out where to go and where to level.Then you stumble on some LV 10 critter that makes a snack out of you.Games have no learning curve to start with and once you get the Hang of it, its the same thing over n over.Raids,Instances,crafting, and grind.Wash,rinse,repeat...as I am sure most who read this have been gaming for awhile for me it was zMuds,UO,EQ that I got my first addiction.I dont know if others have this issue or not but I cant stay in any game more than 2 months without being bored with it.Oh well I could rant 10 pages...but Illl stop here..

xxariochxx

Well todate there is no mmo out there worth paying for none...i see a slim chance that aoc might peak me alittle but for beta only im not going to waste money again on online play for along while simiply because everything is the same...its so bad out here in mmo land that ive gone back to diablo 2 for the love of god and playing text based games just because the games for me graphics dont mean  anything too me nothing less then 5%....www.sryth.com and criminalvengeance.com.....

So how to fix it that is a simple answer stop paying for crap just because they make it doesnt make it good and people seem to be on this sandbox level i call it that  they cant seem to not spend there hard earned money on...but again i think its the kids that are driving the communitys into this crap where getting its like playing magic the gathering and then all of a sudden here comes pokemon which killed alot of gamers away from stores because the stores  wanted the money over the long stay of people that go to the game shops...

I cant even really count how many betas ive played its alot and it always came out the same way the games are just to simple and no thinking is envolved anymore click and kill end of line....last beta i did was lotr and i was there from the get go on it , at open had a lot of things i liked but after awhile it was like i was grinding and grinding to get nothing i hit lvl 43 and quit just before it went open beta and never looked it again and now i see people oooo and ahhh it like its the greatest thing ever let me tell you from my option when you hit lvl 40 the game dies so fast in questing and leveling its just turns into vanguard...

And i dont care how many people play wow it doesnt make that game the best thing out it just means alot of idiots with low iq's cant figure out that there playing and wasting money on crap....its so low intelligence that people start believing that they have the right to belittle others ingame enough try to build up there egos in it...

and now look what we have to look forward too warhammer which is nothing more then wow, gods and heroes =vanguard, tabula rasa= anarchry online, darkfall=asherons call, andn so on and so on...

The only game that i reget that never made it too online play was maybe the greatest game made FALLOUT which too this day i play and yeah its a click and shoot game but dam at least there was some thinking involved in it you just didnt run in and start shootin unless you have the mini gun heh....

Too show you how long ive been around the first game i played was telengard and i was only 9 or 10 then

 

 

ygscorp

it follow the same way of movie industry : every plot must be understood by a seven aged fat and dumb children with a mental age of five years. it must be flashy with a lot of movements in order to impress their soft greasy brain... that's all

Bernoully

Yup, there were a lot of promises that did not deliver, and even projects cancelled. To think it was an amazing time when so many interesting titles were announced here at MMORPG.com. The MMORPG world is suffering, indeed.

As all things have its ups and downs, we are pretty much in the down section of the timeline curve now. While the future is not set, a number of GDC-type panels, interviews and online articles point to these opinions:

- MMO games will become more and more "casual" in the sense of pick-up-and-play-them (as the console Wii aims to do)

- indie MMO development community will eventually become a bigger presence, with middleware companies driving that purpose

- there will be games that start much smaller (compared to polished hits), but grow bigger with time and a longer lifespan

- slow, eroding interest for experienced MMORPG players in high fantasy genre, and natural opportunities to expand towards other genres

- new companies that will eventually faciliate this movement

IMO we are headed for a "up" in several years' time, or longer. Call it wishful thinking, but nothing bad lasts forever as the good does.

CactusmanX

You guys make it sound like stagnation is exclusive to MMOs, when in truth every other genre and gaming as a whole is boring and uninteresting, it has been that way for years, and I can't see any good or interesting games coming out in the forseeable next two years, so don't feel bad.

There are probably people on a FPS board somewhere complaining about what is going wrong in the FPS world, if you think MMOs are bad just look at how many WW2 shooters there are. 

paladyne

Companies looking for the quick "FAD" hit instead of looking at the long road ahead.

Seems more and more MMO's are trying to capture the console market ( instead of making console MMO's ) and over simplyfing the UI's, inteface and gameplay to the point of turning off the general PC gamers out there.

They have seem to forgotten the PC gamers are more than likely to stick with a game( MMO or other wise) for a far longer period of time than the typical console players.( most PC games are modded for extra life either through toolsets from the makers i.e. unreal, oblivion, never winter nights ect. or through smart game hacks i.e. jedia acadamy, grand theif auto san adreas<not the damn hotcoffe crap>)

with this generation of systems coming standard with HDDs, it will be interesting to see if developers start adding mod tools to there consol games.( or just bleed gamers dry with " episodic updates and content" that players need to purchace, which sadly is looking the way its gonna happen)

Recant

Originally posted by CactusmanX


You guys make it sound like stagnation is exclusive to MMOs, when in truth every other genre and gaming as a whole is boring and uninteresting, it has been that way for years, and I can't see any good or interesting games coming out in the forseeable next two years, so don't feel bad.
There are probably people on a FPS board somewhere complaining about what is going wrong in the FPS world, if you think MMOs are bad just look at how many WW2 shooters there are. 

I think this is a very good point.  I also think that it's much harder now to innovate now that the genre has established itself.  Every publisher dreams of the success of Everquest or WoW, and nobody is taking any real risks.   Despite that, I think that some players place too much criticism on newer MMOs; yes blatant clones are bad, but taking good features from previous MMOs and incorporating them into a new product is a good thing.



I think the situation will improve when more traditional game developers get on the MMO bandwagon - and people stop throwing around the term MMO, and we just see the term 'online'.  Then we'll see games that are not necessarily Everquest clones, but geniunely do something different with the online component.



I'm eagerly awaiting some form of first person shooter, with a massive intricate world and lore, where you can build cities and destroy other people's cities, sandbox-like - but with some meaningful and interactive story arc, set in the future.  What I guess I really want is a Starcraft MMO. 

Raikkonen

To some degree since eq1 came out there were ppl that were loyal to one another and repected other ppl playing the game, even if a person run in and steal a particular mob they got slated for it and ppl know there name server wide for it. but since wow came out the mmo world change i feel as most ppl now will kick you out of group and not tell you why? and i feel thats what the community has lost. I like wow as a game but the community started off ok but got dramatically worse over time and ended my experience on there as a person told my gf out of the blue to 'go fuck yourself!' which was completly uncalled for, considering she only meet them 30 secs before he said it and only declined the group with an polite explaination.

Some people might not agree with me, but this kind of behaviour and worse has been carried out on other mmorpg's and the gameplay has been lost... the atmosphere has suffered. You dont feel confident to talk to players on there sometimes because of the behaviour of alot of the players not necessarily them.

 

paulscott

wurm is the game.

Amstel

Two games that are being developed and look very good are Age of Conan and Warhammer Online.



They both have the potential to "evolve" in the way you are looking for.



WoW could also always change and become something it currently is not. (an exciting world pvp based MMORPG)