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Is the sandbox gaming model obsolete?
korvass
Member Posts: 616
After reading a lot of different sites and topics about the upcoming doom and gloom announcement from SOE regarding Vanguard, I got to wondering if whether the 'sandbox' gaming model is truly obsolete these days. I define a sandbox game as more a virtual world, than a linear questing game. A game model whereby you are deposited into an environment, and largely left to explore and make a life for yourself. Games such as SWG Pre-NGE, for example.
Now, personally, I love sandbox games. I used to live Pre-NGE SWG and similar titles. I love roleplaying, still do, and do it where ever I can. But it appears that nobody has yet managed to create another truly great sandbox, or detailed and inclusive MMO experience. From my perspective, it seems also that styles are changing, and the newer generation of gamers from the last 10 years or so has evolved into a much more casual beast.
I don't want this to turn into a Vanguard or Pre-CU thread, but given that SOE's take over of Vanny seems imminent, what do you folks think?
Is the sandbox gaming model still viable these days as a profitable business, or are the days of complex, involving MMOs going the way of the dodo?
Discuss at will.
Now, personally, I love sandbox games. I used to live Pre-NGE SWG and similar titles. I love roleplaying, still do, and do it where ever I can. But it appears that nobody has yet managed to create another truly great sandbox, or detailed and inclusive MMO experience. From my perspective, it seems also that styles are changing, and the newer generation of gamers from the last 10 years or so has evolved into a much more casual beast.
I don't want this to turn into a Vanguard or Pre-CU thread, but given that SOE's take over of Vanny seems imminent, what do you folks think?
Is the sandbox gaming model still viable these days as a profitable business, or are the days of complex, involving MMOs going the way of the dodo?
Discuss at will.
Comments
MMOs have never been what i would call "complex".Im firmly convinced monkey's could be trained to play all of the currrently existing ones.
Sandbox is the way MMOs should go.
The problem is not the sandbox concept, its most of the other concepts that mmo dev teams embrace that are horrible.
The MMO industry needs a purging more than Enron did.The greater majority of the customer enjoyment defeating pigeon holes need to be removed , as do most of the current dev team members industry wide who continually embrace them.
Sandbox games will never go obselete, as they are the epitome of the concept of player freedom. However making a game fully sandbox will alienate and bore players who do not completely accept the gameplay model.
As far as I understand, Pre-CU SWG was touted as the one sandbox game of the recent times but also lacks the content that drive the concept further. Please note that this is not bashing SWG on their content or amount of possible tools; what SWG has shown is a possibility that sandbox games can still appeal to more players.
Appealling to more players? It is possible to achieve that by infusing more very story-centric gameplay model, bordering on point-and-click adventures of the old days. 60% sandbox and 40% storytelling, or vice versa. I have not played the Myst and URU series, but those were what I have been told were games that had the storytelling part right.
Story-centric element is one of the solutions to the sandbox appeal. I just believe that by giving a driving story, one will not hear "I went into this sandbox game and I got bored not knowing what to do" from players not used to it. You can read these kinds of comments Eve Online and SWG, I am sure. If the story is designed such that players can use the sandbox elements to participate and change the persistent world, it will be even better.
Just some opinions on the potential of sandbox model. That's what discussions are for, no?
Giving players a sandbox works if you give them some toys to play around with.
If all you do is put up some sandcastles (mobs) and expect people to knock em down, and nothing else, then it gets boring.
NO.
Almost 10 million elder scrolls fans and more then 15 million GTA fans as well as multimillions of "The Sims" fans prove that sandbox games is what people really want.
The problem is that it just hasn't been done right yet, at least not on a level of polish to wake up the mass market. Remember it took many years before the Elder Scrolls climbed out of their tiny niche right into world of gamings spotlight. It also took many years before GTA got the level of graphics and polish to wake up millions of people of different gaming tastes all over the world.
I don't know about you guys, but when GTA3 came out I saw people who didn't game for years come back to gaming en masse, and GTA is a sandbox game without doubt. I am absolutly certain that when a game can combine a high level of polish and production values with sandbox style gameplay, that game will absolutly blast competition out of the water, just like GTA did for the single player market.
But at this time, a game that has both sandbox style gameplay and high production values does not exist with exception of maybe EVE-Online which is actually quite succesful but which is hindered by its genre (most people simply don't like spaceship games).
Mark my words though, the first sandbox game that manages to get their act right and combine sandbox style gaming with high production values will land onto the gaming scene with an explosion never seen before.
Just like GTA3 did....and The Sims...and Oblivion...
EDIT: And I'd like to add that having played Vanguard, Vanguard is not that much of a sandbox (compared to Saga of Ryzom or pre-cu SWG) but most of all, if it is sandbox it is the perfect example of unpolished, low production values sandbox. It is a bad game, and a bad game will fail regardless if its sandbox or not.
But games like GTA and Elder Scrolls do at least have a certain structure to them. Theres still a central plot running through them, even if you are free to wander off and do your own thing, much like most MMORPGs, you can follow quests, but also can do whatever else you like.
At the rate that the MMORPG industry and the games industry in general is going I'm beginning to think that even Baldurs Gate 2 has that Sandbox feel to it and that's not even a sandbox RPG it's story driven but it makes you feel like your in the world and exploring rather than just running through random hallways or in a zone waiting for enemies to pop up.
Quoting people doesn't make you clever, in fact, it makes you all the more stupid for not bothering to read the quotes you post in the first place.
It may not have the skill box system as it did pre-nge, but SWG still has many aspects of a sandbox game. Chapter 6 which is due today or tomorrow further adds upon this with the new Storyteller additions and Beast Master mini-games (a more indepth version of CH and BE).
my two bits.. we haven't seen the rise of sandbox mmos yet, but i believe it's on the way.
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TheCore
To be honest, cept for Ultima Online (which was successfull), I don't really feel anyone has given a true "sandbox" game a fair shot at the big time.
SWG was close to it and had all the right tools to support the community but it was knee deep in game mechanic issues and more than a few balancing problems. After NGE I think it took a step from the completely open sandbox idea. I suppose Eve and SoR were/are hybrid sanbox games but both lack alot of tools/options to really pull sandboxers into the genres.
I sincerely believe that whoever comes out with a true sandbox, to do the core will lots of build options and a clean, finished interface and game mechanics, will have a true hit on their hands.
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I guess I'll have to try one someday to see if I can figure out their appeal, because its obvious many players have really enjoyed the ones from the past (and present)
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Sandbox style games, by their very nature, have deeper, more complex underlying game systems which require constant balancing and tweaking. This takes away from the development of content, which supporters of sandbox games tend to feel is a weakness of the model.
Developers can only go a couple of ways--make a game that is fairly simple mechanics-wise and less freeform (cutting down on the number of variables that would introduce bugs), and deliver a heck of a lot of content (WoW, LotRO), or, make a game that gives the players a good deal of freedom and choice, but forcing them to essential come up with their own fun due to lack of time for real content development (SWG).
Personally, I like my games to be just that, games--so I'm a fan of the first option.
EDIT: I suppose I should clarify that the point I was trying to make was this: Freeform, sandbox-style games that are also rich with content options aren't really financially viable, which is why you see games go one or the other. Spend development time on the freeform game systems, or on the content within the game. It' s just too expensive otherwise. And you can bet that with MMOs, more than any other game genre, money is a huge deciding factor in what can and cannot be done.
Crafting does change the world in a minor way. You create an item that did not previously exist in the game world. That's a very small start. But that's not really what most people consider player made content.
The player made content comes from players organizing and interacting to use the tools that are available to change the world. The more tools provided, the more interaction and player made content.
For example, in Shadowbane, although it was buggy, laggy, and had poor quality graphics, you could build a city, or tear down a city. Cities gave players many advantages, so there was an incentive to build one. The player made content came from players organizing and interacting to either build a city, or tear one down. That's just one example.
Another example might be if the devs gave you tools so that you could construct a temple, and the priests would give anyone entering the temple a blessing (buff) for a small donation. To build the temple you need to contribute 100 stone blocks (made by player crafters), 100 mongoose bones (drops from PvE mobs), and 100 heads of enemy players (collected by PvP). To build the temple you must organize players to PvE, PvP, and craft, and combine all their efforts. That would be the player made content, all the organization, cooperation, and deal making to get this done.
Instead we mostly see static quests in games today. Go here, kill this, bring back that, get money or XP as a reward. Nothing in the game changes, the next player does the same thing. No player made content in that scenario. IMO if devs include sandbox features in games and implement them well, players will use them and have fun doing it. So far we haven't seen very good implementation, although there have been partial successes like SWG previously mentioned, Pre-NGE.
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SWG touched on some great elements I think. I enjoyed the "theory" behind it. Having all kill mob professions, crafting professions, and the ability to mix and match within some limits. It's implementation sucked royally though. With every revamp, people cringed. Their original vision though I liked, its too bad they didnt stay true to it.
I think by sandbox, people want freedom. To be able to multiclass interesting and different combos. Have classes that can become uber killers, as well as classes that are not focused on "killing", but where you can do a business via selling goods and trading. And so much more.
Sometimes you feel like blowing something to bits, other times you feel like sitting back and relaxing. With some games, you are forced to kill kill kill kill and kill some more. This gets tedious and boring.
To answer "Is the sandbox gaming model obsolete?" question... I think its more that its still in it's infancy stages waiting to mature.
"...and with that cryptic comment, I'm off to bed!"
Crafting does change the world in a minor way. You create an item that did not previously exist in the game world. That's a very small start. But that's not really what most people consider player made content.
The player made content comes from players organizing and interacting to use the tools that are available to change the world. The more tools provided, the more interaction and player made content.
For example, in Shadowbane, although it was buggy, laggy, and had poor quality graphics, you could build a city, or tear down a city. Cities gave players many advantages, so there was an incentive to build one. The player made content came from players organizing and interacting to either build a city, or tear one down. That's just one example.
Another example might be if the devs gave you tools so that you could construct a temple, and the priests would give anyone entering the temple a blessing (buff) for a small donation. To build the temple you need to contribute 100 stone blocks (made by player crafters), 100 mongoose bones (drops from PvE mobs), and 100 heads of enemy players (collected by PvP). To build the temple you must organize players to PvE, PvP, and craft, and combine all their efforts. That would be the player made content, all the organization, cooperation, and deal making to get this done.
Instead we mostly see static quests in games today. Go here, kill this, bring back that, get money or XP as a reward. Nothing in the game changes, the next player does the same thing. No player made content in that scenario. IMO if devs include sandbox features in games and implement them well, players will use them and have fun doing it. So far we haven't seen very good implementation, although there have been partial successes like SWG previously mentioned, Pre-NGE.
www.absinthelovers.com
By your definition Eve-Online is pretty much exactly what a sandbox game should be, rather than a "hybrid" some have been mentioning. People are left to virtually do whatever they want through whatever means they like. PVE can be done through missions, mining, trade, etc. PVP ranges from pirating to small gangs to huge fleet battles involving the coordination and organization of many. The "Temple" you describe can relate to outposts and POS(Player Owned Starbase), motherships, and even titans out in 0.0 space, which require colossual amounts of funding, components, and co-ordination from players to successfully accomplish. The economy is completely player driven (This was not true in the early days but has changed). The game is pretty much what you make of it, and CCP try not to involve themselves too much, espescially out in 0.0. There are of course DEV events, news, and a storyline between the races that will evolve and be expanded (Upcoming patches such as factional warefare will increase the role of the NPC races you belong to).
The fact that the game is sci-fi rather than fantasy probably turns most people off however which is a shame.
Crafting does change the world in a minor way. You create an item that did not previously exist in the game world. That's a very small start. But that's not really what most people consider player made content.
The player made content comes from players organizing and interacting to use the tools that are available to change the world. The more tools provided, the more interaction and player made content.
For example, in Shadowbane, although it was buggy, laggy, and had poor quality graphics, you could build a city, or tear down a city. Cities gave players many advantages, so there was an incentive to build one. The player made content came from players organizing and interacting to either build a city, or tear one down. That's just one example.
Another example might be if the devs gave you tools so that you could construct a temple, and the priests would give anyone entering the temple a blessing (buff) for a small donation. To build the temple you need to contribute 100 stone blocks (made by player crafters), 100 mongoose bones (drops from PvE mobs), and 100 heads of enemy players (collected by PvP). To build the temple you must organize players to PvE, PvP, and craft, and combine all their efforts. That would be the player made content, all the organization, cooperation, and deal making to get this done.
Instead we mostly see static quests in games today. Go here, kill this, bring back that, get money or XP as a reward. Nothing in the game changes, the next player does the same thing. No player made content in that scenario. IMO if devs include sandbox features in games and implement them well, players will use them and have fun doing it. So far we haven't seen very good implementation, although there have been partial successes like SWG previously mentioned, Pre-NGE.
www.absinthelovers.com
By your definition Eve-Online is pretty much exactly what a sandbox game should be, rather than a "hybrid" some have been mentioning. People are left to virtually do whatever they want through whatever means they like. PVE can be done through missions, mining, trade, etc. PVP ranges from pirating to small gangs to huge fleet battles involving the coordination and organization of many. The "Temple" you describe can relate to outposts and POS(Player Owned Starbase), motherships, and even titans out in 0.0 space, which require colossual amounts of funding, components, and co-ordination from players to successfully accomplish. The economy is completely player driven (This was not true in the early days but has changed). The game is pretty much what you make of it, and CCP try not to involve themselves too much, espescially out in 0.0. There are of course DEV events, news, and a storyline between the races that will evolve and be expanded (Upcoming patches such as factional warefare will increase the role of the NPC races you belong to).
The fact that the game is sci-fi rather than fantasy probably turns most people off however which is a shame.
EVE is a good example of a sandbox game, and IMO it has the right proportions of game and sandbox. IMO, a pure sandbox game, like Second Life, isn't any fun because it lacks any sort of game. That's just to chaotic for me. However, a pure gamey game with little or no sandbox elements, like WoW, is to far on the other side. EVE probably has the right mix. It worth noting that EVE is also considered successful, that is it's making money.
I don't think it's the Sci Fi genre that turns players off to EVE. Although Fantasy is more popular than Sci Fi, there is a substantial crowd that likes Sci Fi games and would love to see more sci fi MMORPGs. IMO the biggest turn off for EVE is that you play a spaceship rather than a person (even if was an alien person, or a monster type of person like a troll or something).
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I don't think the "Sandbox" was ever a good idea since it devoles into a catbox full of crap. Players without limits will become assholes because games fail to put realistic consequences in to discourage that sort of behavior which society as a whole does do. Choose to rob a bank and you go to jail(character unplayable for a protracted time) or get killed(perma death) without realistic controls in place griefing will take place.
Players don't mind PvP, but the vocal minority don't just want PvP they want to be able to take something directly away from the vanquished player. In essence to be able to loot your helpless form of items you may have spent a great deal of time aquiring. This is a terribly bad trend in todays gaimng, continuously creating division and distrust. There are mutiple examples of games that had a great concept to start with but have lost the vision to cater to this growing minority of assholery.
The notion that the community will police itself is never going to happen without the kind of backing that the same function has in R.L. players can't keep up with assholes that choose the lawless path. How far do you think law enforcement in your community would get if the police officer had to provide 100% of thier own equipment? If rather than a governmental agency providing security for our countries each individual citizen had to stand on the border with a rifle in hand?
In the sandbox enviroment the lawless path is always the easier path since you can choose to engage or not engage another character. Invariably the setups required to PvP are much different than the setups you use for regular gaming so the Pvper will always have the upper hand. To be continued.
I can't play games like Guild Wars and such for more than a few days, even if I've never done the missions before there is just something lacking when you're doing pre-written quests that everyone else has done or is going to do. In games like Eve and Ryzom, I get a much better sense of being in control of my own fate (yeah cheesy sounding, I know), I can do whatever I want, whatever I find fun.
I don't see any reason a company couldn't include some great sandbox features in a game, and also put in some static quests for players that either don't want to engage in teh sandbox content, or just dont' have time for it at the moment.
Basically you take a quest driven game like LoTRo, pull out half the quests, and replace them with sandbox sorts of things to do. You'd think that would be doable.
One poster mentioned PvP, and consequences for ganking and issues like that. IMO, that's a separate issue, whether or not you want PvP in the game, and how you want to implement. PvP is not necessary for a sandbox game, and if you have PvP in a sandbox game you can use all sorts of rules, everything from RvR to FFA, or FFA with rules.
To a small degree, I think WAR will have some sandbox features because of the PvP and the ability to reset the server when one side wins. It will also include static quests if I'm not mistaken.
Absinthe Lovers
My biggest problem with sandbox games is not so much griefing as all the work required to build an online community. As a guy with a full-time career job, a 30-year mortgage and family obligations, I want to log on and have interesting adventures I can't experience in real life. I don't want to have to go check my harvesters, run inventory on my store, go pay rent on my house, and finally go attend an hour long town hall meeting followed by a half-hour guild meeting. This was the downside to my existence in Star Wars Galaxies, and I applaud those players who stepped up to keep our little town running. But the ratio of work to fun seemed far to high IMHO, especially compared with the ability to just log on and immediately run some quests or hop into some PVP without coming up with a plausible roleplaying reason of why I need to go fight so-and-so.
I guess it all depends what you're looking for - perhaps sandbox games are perfect for socializers and certain types of achievers but not so good for explorers and other types of achievers (depends on the game whether it's good for competitors). What I'd personally like to see is a sandbox world similar to Oblivion, where you can either do your own thing or enjoy premade quests and storylines. Players could create their own factions or take quests from NPC factions like the Fighters or Thieves Guild. I'd also like to see some way to earn a house or even a castle through questing, which would give players the alternative of either finishing a major storyline or collecting resources and building their own.
PS - I'm actually not against roleplaying or simulation games. In fact, I'm a long-time tabletop roleplayer who enjoys strategy games like Civilization IV. But the daunting thing about sandbox games is you can't just meet with your friends every other saturday to roleplay - a lot of my SWG buddies were putting in 40-60 hour weeks just to keep up. Also, a lot of the maintenance requirements seemed more busy work than actual fun to me.
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Lots of options in an MMORPG is a good thing. You can craft, PvP, PvE, do static quests, do sandbox type activities, and switch between any one of them when you get bored with one.
it may be obsolete ... but not because its a bad model, but because most gamers are too damn lazy to play in one. In this WoWified dumbed down genre of games god forbid a game doesn't tell you exactly what to kill, where to kill it and how many to kill. god forbid if there isn't a little fricken number next to your name to tell you how big your e-p33n is.
people mentioned they didnt get the appeal of sandbox with grinding the same mobs over and over, or collecting cash by crafting or in general. I say those are just one part of a sandbox game. when i logged into SWG (pre-nge) I had so much to do, i could hunt rare creatures to kill or try and tame. I could kill creatures for thier skin/bones or whatever if they had good quality and sell them to a crafter for a good penny. I could take bounty missions on NPCs or players, I could PVP and defend bases against the rebel scum. Or if i wanted to just sit in a cantina and chit chat with friends.
where unlike in EQ2 since i have a max level i have 2 choices ... grind instances or raid.
best part about most sandbox games is the ability to just sit back and relax and not feel like you are losing the progression battle. meaning that in SWG i could just sit in a cantina and talk or roleplay and not feel like im screwing up my leveling.
ALthough I don't really consider Vanguard a sandbox game, sure it may have some elements, however its just another eq linear progression game.
A sandbox game needs a good developer.
Take Vanguard for example, it suffered because Brad has NO vision. He does not understand what attracts people to play MMO's.
Look at Eve as another example, it thrives because the developers understand what keeps people playing.
Sandbox MMO's are not dead, just waiting for someone who understands how to make one.