bah so all I want to do is grief young players give me a break. I want to fight real competition and wage epic wars. sure, young players will surely get killed unless they join an association. The weak are solo players. The strong reduce their risk and team
then why didnt you join siege perilous? ...oh, srry...there's no pking where everyone is skilled pvpers
btw its pve minded players posting why are newbies so weak? If the playing field is level then please let me know. I defend myself just fine in Starport where the server resets and vets are brought down to level with newbies.
Why are younger players such a victim and so weak????
In FPS games newbies own vets all the time. So why oh why is young players such a victim and defenseless? You speak of grinds where there is huge separation between vet and newbie. where vets wear uber gear and own the noobs
bah so all I want to do is grief young players give me a break. I want to fight real competition and wage epic wars. sure, young players will surely get killed unless they join an association. The weak are solo players. The strong reduce their risk and team
then why didnt you join siege perilous? ...oh, srry...there's no pking where everyone is skilled pvpers
tookj a break from games back in those days and played some FPS games for a few yrs. returned to MMOs a few yrs ago and sort of still mix in all types of pvp games (shooters, hardcore pvp, regular grind pvp). I try everything
I have absolutely no problem with FFA PVP if the leveling curve is low (new players can quickly get up to speed and become competitive), or the game allows a group of newbs to take down even the most veteran player - at least in theory. In other words, theoretically a group of FPS noobs have the same chance of killing a pro player as he does of killing them. Skill would still play a role and it's quite possible that the veteran would completely trash dozens of newbs without suffering a scratch. But the game system mechanics shouldn't make it impossible for low level characters to even land a hit on higher level characters.
No kidding. The carebear thing is a myth anyway. We don't have carebears vs. griefers, we have those who can pvp and those who can't. 9 out of 10 'carebears' if given the chance to score a no effort pvp kill will jump at it. The fact that they are unable to generate any successful pvp encounters on their own and cry a river on the forums and /report after every gank is why we can't sustain ffa pvp in an mmo. We aren't stopping them from smelling the flowers, petting the bunnies, or w/e the hell it is pve'rs do.
It's the same as the kid who get's thrown out at first base in the sandlot, who afterwards takes his ball and goes home. He can't get back at people by playing the game fairly, so he ruins it for everyone instead.
btw its pve minded players posting why are newbies so weak? If the playing field is level then please let me know. I defend myself just fine in Starport where the server resets and vets are brought down to level with newbies. Why are younger players such a victim and so weak???? In FPS games newbies own vets all the time. So why oh why is young players such a victim and defenseless? You speak of grinds where there is huge separation between vet and newbie. where vets wear uber gear and own the noobs
The game you mention is an exception to the rule. Starport is not an MMORPG. One deciding factor of MMOs is a PERSISTANT world. Not a resetting two week world. The game you play does not benefit a player who has more free time to grind epix.
No kidding. The carebear thing is a myth anyway. We don't have carebears vs. griefers, we have those who can pvp and those who can't. 9 out of 10 'carebears' if given the chance to score a no effort pvp kill will jump at it. The fact that they are unable to generate any successful pvp encounters on their own and cry a river on the forums and /report after every gank is why we can't sustain ffa pvp in an mmo. We aren't stopping them from smelling the flowers, petting the bunnies, or w/e the hell it is pve'rs do.
It's the same as the kid who get's thrown out at first base in the sandlot, who afterwards takes his ball and goes home. He can't get back at people by playing the game fairly, so he ruins it for everyone instead.
I am fairly sure this is an outrageous assumption. You are assuming that everyone is as trigger happy when it comes to a free kill situation. You are assuming that I (as a PvE player) would gladly strike down anyone weaker than me given opportunity. This isn't true. The thrill you get out of killing someone that is no challenge is not a common feeling among MMO players.
A lot of the time people who report abuse are doing so because the other players are creating an environment where they can't enjoy themselves. Ganking, griefing, corpse camping, and other activities that kid people jollies can ruin the experience for someone who wants to "pet bunnies". Why? Because they are usually paying 10 bucks a month to pet bunnies and feel like it is supposed to be a given that they can do this unmolested.
Griefers ruin the game for themselves. If you get your jollies out of killing someone obviously ill equipped and ill prepared you are doomed.
That's the same reason the bully eventually had detention and is more closely monitored by teachers. Not because people complain, but because the bully is abusing the rules.
Just thought I'd weigh in on the whole, "most people who pk don't gank or kill lowbies," thing. IMO that is a complete farce, and totally devoid of what is really happening. My pvp experience is not extensive, limited to CoX, WoW and EQ, and truthfully I tend to suck at it. I tend to get killed a lot, but something I have repeatedly noticed is... Most of the people killing me are much, much, much higher level than me. I can probably count on one hand the number of people within 5 - 10 levels that have killed me. Not because they couldn't (I allready said I suck at pvp) but because, I can only assume they viewed it as too risky. By far the majority of killings are done by people who are much higher level. Well since most of the people killed are killed by people of much higher level, and people of similar level avoid the fights, this tends to imply that it is more than a few who enjoy ganking lowbies, in fact it tends to imply that it is the majority of people who pk that do gank and kill lowbies. Now if it was a minority than the numbers of death due to gankers would be less, but we as carebears have not noticed this, we have noticed that we tend to repeatedly get killed by people who as I said are much higher in level (or skill if your a skill based game becuase for the most part skills and levels are really just semantics). Repeatedly getting killed tends to interfere with our sense of accomplishments in a game, making the game less enjoygable. And since the point of a game is fun we then find a game that is more enjoyable. Venge Sunsoar
please at least try to mention non-level based grinds which suck at pvp anyway. none of my posts deal with level based grinders.
Cute story but overaggerated. I can tell you didnt play City of Heroes long. You cant be ganked in CoX lol. I know I have reached level cap in that game. -ALL- the pvp zones technically autolevel you to level cap. So, if u enter siren's call you get autoleveled to 30. How cvan you get ganked 1v1 by a higher lvl? Please enlighten me its impossible.
In WoW post-battlegrounds / arena everyone hits those instances for the high lvl honor rewards. ev1 knows open pvp practically dead in WoW. I just took a poll a few days ago some others voted that. how can you bring up WoW all u gotta do is hit the angel and go farm somewhere else. go farm an instance dungeon wit all the rest of the farmers. farm to your hearts content in 100% safety even on the PvP servers.
I thought we were at least talking pvp games where u have something to lose when you die. not level grinders like WoW when all u have is hurt pride. and cant blame a higher lvl for messing you up if you wont even hit the angel. although granted, WoW is really sucky for pvp. I'd say Guild Wars much, much better for pvp if you gonna go all instanced, casul pvp. but none of these games you listed hardcore pvp.
of course people will take your lunch money given the chance especially loot whoring games like WoW where gear >>>>>> noobs
No. Not overexaggerated at all
1. I did not mention CoX to say that I had been ganked there, I was just relating my pvp history. And yes I did and do play CoX. I have been playing CoH since release, still don't have a 50 though. Yes I do know that you are autoleveled in the pvp zones.
2. Your poll is flawed. In Wow on emerald dream the pvp is alive and well. I rarely do the battlegrounds because I find them well boring. Go to stranglethorn vale sometime and listen to the chat for 10 minutes. The PVP is alive and the ganking is furious. Yes you can hit the angel and go somewhere else but for lvl 30-40 that is the best place.
3. Of course you can blame a higher level for messing you up. They can mess you up whether you hit the angle or not. Having item loot does not make it harder or easier pvp, it just irritates some people while giving others a reason to pvp.
Venge Sunsoar
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
One particular option you left out was the idea of a bounty system (which UO implemented, but not to well). When I played UO, I was a Dread Lord Master Archer/Mage. My highest bounty was 250,000 Gold. This made it difficult for me to travel to town (incognito only worked so well). Implementing a penalty system such as this would allow open PvP to work. UO failed because they left it at a simple head hunting operation. You had no way to get leads, etc. Implementing the ability to purchase leads from an NPC on your target's whereabouts would allow a system such as this to thrive.
Also, in UO, if you were an evil bastard such as I was, certain NPCs would not do business with you. I did have my mule to purchase supplies, but then he was open to the same fate as those I killed. Open PvP adds a nice suspense to the game. The number one thing that immediately began to kill mmorpgs for me was the implementation of the radar. You could no longer stealth kill your player enemies because the see the red blip (AC).
All-in-all, if implemented properly, open PvP will work.
I understand that not everyone enjoys pvp. However,
There are two things that bother me about the anti-pvp attitude as put forth by the OP:
1. It is restrictive. Being unable to PK some idiot who truely deserves it because of pansy ass game mechanics is unbearably frustrating to me. When i played WOW, the players i wanted to PK were not on the opposing faction but my own KSing "allies". By the way. You people claim that pvp encourages idiot behavior, look at WOW. This is hardly a pvp game yet look at its player base.
2. It is unrealistic. I am a huge advocate of immersion and realism in MMOs. Arbitrary restrictions on what you can or can't do is a huge immersion factor. If you want to kill someone in real life, some inexplicable law of physics doesn't prevent you from doing it.
I get incensed when i think that people are actually willing to throw these two points out the window as they hump the dream of a pvp-less MMO career. MMOs are a celebration of identity and if my identity is a polygonal serial killer then so be it.
btw its pve minded players posting why are newbies so weak? If the playing field is level then please let me know. I defend myself just fine in Starport where the server resets and vets are brought down to level with newbies. Why are younger players such a victim and so weak???? In FPS games newbies own vets all the time. So why oh why is young players such a victim and defenseless? You speak of grinds where there is huge separation between vet and newbie. where vets wear uber gear and own the noobs
The game you mention is an exception to the rule. Starport is not an MMORPG. One deciding factor of MMOs is a PERSISTANT world. Not a resetting two week world. The game you play does not benefit a player who has more free time to grind epix.
You dont know what you're talking about lol Starport is listed on this site. It has poermaverses too you know where there is no reset.
Just thought I'd weigh in on the whole, "most people who pk don't gank or kill lowbies," thing. IMO that is a complete farce, and totally devoid of what is really happening. My pvp experience is not extensive, limited to CoX, WoW and EQ, and truthfully I tend to suck at it. I tend to get killed a lot, but something I have repeatedly noticed is... Most of the people killing me are much, much, much higher level than me. I can probably count on one hand the number of people within 5 - 10 levels that have killed me. Not because they couldn't (I allready said I suck at pvp) but because, I can only assume they viewed it as too risky. By far the majority of killings are done by people who are much higher level. Well since most of the people killed are killed by people of much higher level, and people of similar level avoid the fights, this tends to imply that it is more than a few who enjoy ganking lowbies, in fact it tends to imply that it is the majority of people who pk that do gank and kill lowbies. Now if it was a minority than the numbers of death due to gankers would be less, but we as carebears have not noticed this, we have noticed that we tend to repeatedly get killed by people who as I said are much higher in level (or skill if your a skill based game becuase for the most part skills and levels are really just semantics). Repeatedly getting killed tends to interfere with our sense of accomplishments in a game, making the game less enjoygable. And since the point of a game is fun we then find a game that is more enjoyable. Venge Sunsoar
please at least try to mention non-level based grinds which suck at pvp anyway. none of my posts deal with level based grinders.
Cute story but overaggerated. I can tell you didnt play City of Heroes long. You cant be ganked in CoX lol. I know I have reached level cap in that game. -ALL- the pvp zones technically autolevel you to level cap. So, if u enter siren's call you get autoleveled to 30. How cvan you get ganked 1v1 by a higher lvl? Please enlighten me its impossible.
In WoW post-battlegrounds / arena everyone hits those instances for the high lvl honor rewards. ev1 knows open pvp practically dead in WoW. I just took a poll a few days ago some others voted that. how can you bring up WoW all u gotta do is hit the angel and go farm somewhere else. go farm an instance dungeon wit all the rest of the farmers. farm to your hearts content in 100% safety even on the PvP servers.
I thought we were at least talking pvp games where u have something to lose when you die. not level grinders like WoW when all u have is hurt pride. and cant blame a higher lvl for messing you up if you wont even hit the angel. although granted, WoW is really sucky for pvp. I'd say Guild Wars much, much better for pvp if you gonna go all instanced, casul pvp. but none of these games you listed hardcore pvp.
of course people will take your lunch money given the chance especially loot whoring games like WoW where gear >>>>>> noobs
No. Not overexaggerated at all
1. I did not mention CoX to say that I had been ganked there, I was just relating my pvp history. And yes I did and do play CoX. I have been playing CoH since release, still don't have a 50 though. Yes I do know that you are autoleveled in the pvp zones.
2. Your poll is flawed. In Wow on emerald dream the pvp is alive and well. I rarely do the battlegrounds because I find them well boring. Go to stranglethorn vale sometime and listen to the chat for 10 minutes. The PVP is alive and the ganking is furious. Yes you can hit the angel and go somewhere else but for lvl 30-40 that is the best place.
3. Of course you can blame a higher level for messing you up. They can mess you up whether you hit the angle or not. Having item loot does not make it harder or easier pvp, it just irritates some people while giving others a reason to pvp.
Venge Sunsoar
look guy not to be ruide but no one vcares level grinders suck for pvp I've been saying this all along. WoW is an uber loot grind. wporst game for pvp ive seen. I'd rate Guild Wars way higher because there is no seperation between vet and newbie
I wont deny level grinders suck for pvp. Unless we're discussing Guild Wars which is good for casual pvpers. but alas, I'm not disagreeing with you. I said level grinders suck for pvp. Thyose are PVE based games
I should really avoid topics like this. Sadly, I'm not that smart.
Absence of proof is not proof of absence. Just because something hasn't been done right yet, doesn't mean that it can't be done. Players will, given the choice, take the easy path. This is why PvP and non-PvP servers just don't work. Most people will take the easy path, and that means taking the path with minimum risk. The only people left in the PvP servers will be the "Truly Hardcore" groups which will drive everybody else away from the servers.
You can not tack PvP onto any existing PvE system and expect it to work. Working PvP must be designed from the ground up.
A. Change the ruleset allowing players to avoid PvP entirely (Ultima Online)
B. Fail (Shadowbane)
The ability to openly PvP encourages players to take advantages of those weaker than they are. Players who enjoy this will also repeat the process which ultimately discourages new players (mostly). This leads to complaints. A game company can deal with this complaints in two ways. One way is to ignore these "nubs" and continue with the original vision. The other way is to provide these players a space to thrive without PvP.
I am what many players call a "carebear". I mostly enjoy PvE content. The usual practices of players on PvP servers are not appealing. Some players on PvP servers enjoy ruining the playtime of others. "Griefers" is a name they have been given. These players purposefully abuse a system in order to gain real or mental reward. These people are also usually the fat kids on the play ground who like to trip little girls and will eventually become registered sex offenders. PlayervsPlayer is a tricky tightrope to walk, and devs have thus far failed in almost every instance.
I am hoping that newer MMORPGs will see how the system can be manipulated in order to find a happy medium. I do enjoy PvP in some respects, but being completely obliterated to give a fat kid his jollies is not something I do for fun.
What do you want from your PvPness?
It's unfair to say that Shadowbane failed because of FFA PvP. It was buggy, laggy, had poor graphics, and point n click movement. It also had no decent PvE system to go along with the PvP system, and a big grind involved for making a city which could be torn down quickly, giving players and incentive to quit after losing a city.
It had lots of problems that account for it not being a success, besides FFA PvP.
Obvioiusly FFA PvP isn't as popular as other alternatives, but most games will open up a FFA PvP server. Take all those games with all those FFA servers, and that's a lot of players that are looking for a good FFA game. It's enough to make it profitable for a company that designs a good FFA MMORPG.
Originally posted by Pantastic Originally posted by VPellen
[*]Absence of proof is not proof of absence. Just because something hasn't been done right yet, doesn't mean that it can't be done.
At the same time, it's impossible to prove a negative, so this is really just a cop-out. The 'open, full-loot PVP' crowd can't even adequately explain what such a game 'done right' would look like, or what they think was done wrong in the old games. Pretty much all I ever hear is either 'pre-trammel UO in 3D' or something that drastically waters down the 'open pvp' and 'full loot' portion of the ruleset.
You completely missed the point. Study harder.
[*]Players will, given the choice, take the easy path.
Right, like camping gates/zones/flight points, wearing a PVP specialized setup to attack someone in a PVE specialized setup, attacking players who have less skills/levels, attacking players in worse gear, attacking with a large group against a small group, ambushing someone who's in the middle of PVE, and so on. The 'hardcore' PVPers are the ones who do the most taking of the easy path.
Now you're just responding to a proposed fact with a rant. You have conveniently left out VPellen's third point, PvP and PvE do not mix. So according to his position your example scenario would not exist.
Most people don't want to lose their stuff over and over in these sorts of situations, which is why they avoid the 'hardcore' PVP games. If you're not lootable, you don't have to go grind back your stuff after a fight, you don't lose the fruits of your mining (or other PVE pursuit) if you get jumped, and so on. And real PVPers (as opposed to the guys who just want to gank) want to seek out challenging fights, which gank-and-loot PVP actively discourages by punishing players for losing a fight.
Again with the PvE vs PvP. The myriad of PvE MMO's has conditioned people to believe that there are no items without grinding. That does not have to be the case for a non-PvE PvP focussed MMO. Gear can be made less uber and more obtainable. It is not the size of your sword it is how you use it.
What it comes down to is the 'hardcore' PVP crowd wants victims, and most people don't care to pay money to be someone else's victim.
I understand that not everyone enjoys pvp. However,
There are two things that bother me about the anti-pvp attitude as put forth by the OP:
1. It is restrictive. Being unable to PK some idiot who truely deserves it because of pansy ass game mechanics is unbearably frustrating to me.
...
2. It is unrealistic.
...
I get incensed
...
MMOs are a celebration of identity
Of course it's restrictive. Your inability to pickpocket another player's belongings is also restrictive, as is your inability to logon to their account whenever you desire. Your subjective opinion about another paying customer's character is not relevant.
Of course it's unrealistic. So is one person being able to absorb damage equal to the totality of the first ten minutes of Omaha beach. It's a game, that people pay for. It's not your game, you don't own it, you're just another player.
If you get incensed about anything regarding an MMORPG, you need to remind yourself again that it's a game. It's not a "celebration" of anything, it's a game.
Unrestricted PvP will remain unpopular to the vast majority of those willing to pay for a game, precisely because of people with your mindset. We are not going to give control of our gaming experience, which we pay for, to a self-absorbed individual who thinks the game is a "celebration of the identity of homicidal mania" with the rest of us as targets.
We wish to play our game, PvP only when we desire, and under conditions that ensure a fairness in combat. We pay for entertainment, in a wide spectrum of gaming areas, of which PvP is only one possible avenue. Unrestricted PvP typically always degenerates into something less than entertainment, and more about juvenile efforts at self-actualization by a handful of disturbed children.
The fact is that EA bought Origins before UO was started, and it was EA's money that allowed UO to be produced. However, UO was a new idea, or at least a massively extended idea from earlier MMO type games that included so much more in a "worldly" sense. UO was the first effort at a truelly complete world. (And I think it's very sad that so many gamers, both PvE and PvP, seem to miss this point because newer games have gone away from this effort, and thus restricted game play to their own narrower arenas.)
Because UO was new in concept, EA execs pretty much stayed away from it. They left it in the hands of Garriot and co. It wasn't untill UO proved to be such a success that EA started putting their grubby fingers in it. The blind wanted to take over from those with the vision.
UO's problem from rampant PKing wasn't that they were falling in subscriptions so much as that they were losing subs. From one of their ex lead developers "UO lost subscriptions in the 6 figures because of PKing" (paraphrased). That's 100,000+ compared to about 200,000 or less that were still there, and the complaints were still very heated. So UO was still trying to grow, but the constant losses were keeping it from expanding. Any company that loses 1/3 of their customers (or more) is going to want to stop what is causing the bleeding.
But UO wasn't just a PvP game. EVE and Guild Wars prove that a game made just for PvP can work. What leaves me wondering is the fact that PvP servers, like Fel, don't work in games that are built for other things too. Yet, EVE and Guild Wars work, why is that? Is it in the expectations? I don't quite understand this. Why did Fel in UO fail so badly? Why doesn't Siege P. work for UO? And it wasn't the items that came with the AoS expansion, because Fel was pretty dead except for the Power Scrolls before that came out. Not totally, mind you, but it certainly wasn't very active. Maybe it was the competition of newer games, maybe it was the smaller audiance divided by shards and other games, but none of this seems to really strike me as the cause. Why didn't more PvPers play Fel (or PvP servers in games like AC) on a regular basis?
(And we can't compare this to games like WoW and DAoC because they didn't have looting)
I like games with pvp. PVP when I choose to do it.
I don't like games with open ffa pvp/looting.
Why?
Cause I just don't have the time I used to when I was younger to deal with the consquences of loosing loot.
My play time (family life, work) is not the same as back in the day.
Which is why I only play games that have consensual pvp: CoX, WoW, Guld Wars.
Though I'm looking at Fury. That game has pickup and play appeal to it. And has no pve grind, so that loosing in pvp won't slow you down in pve--cause there is no pve to worrry about.
.... But UO wasn't just a PvP game. EVE and Guild Wars prove that a game made just for PvP can work. What leaves me wondering is the fact that PvP servers, like Fel, don't work in games that are built for other things too. Yet, EVE and Guild Wars work, why is that? Is it in the expectations? I don't quite understand this. Why did Fel in UO fail so badly? Why doesn't Siege P. work for UO? And it wasn't the items that came with the AoS expansion, because Fel was pretty dead except for the Power Scrolls before that came out. Not totally, mind you, but it certainly wasn't very active. Maybe it was the competition of newer games, maybe it was the smaller audiance divided by shards and other games, but none of this seems to really strike me as the cause. Why didn't more PvPers play Fel (or PvP servers in games like AC) on a regular basis? (And we can't compare this to games like WoW and DAoC because they didn't have looting)
EvE cater to the farmers period thats why it works. everyone i know here that plays EVE are miners lol and play on PvE servers when given the chance. They safe zone and farm and farm.
Guild Wars accounts for only 14% revenue according to NCSoft quarterly reports. Lineage is 75% its smokes Guild Wars. Both titles are international. Hell I saw GW: Nightfall at the E3 it had crazy advertising. I like GW, I do. It doesnt charge me money and at least theres no seperation between vet and noob. GW is fine for casual pvp but the reality is Lineage smokes GW in the market place inspite of its mass success
your post proves nothing period
for awhile GW catered to farmers seriously. At launch I couldnt earn skills from pvp. you had to get those from PvE grinding. They screwed up. they resolved that post launch thankfully after a few months or whatever.
I like games with pvp. PVP when I choose to do it. I don't like games with open ffa pvp/looting. Why? Cause I just don't have the time I used to when I was younger to deal with the consquences of loosing loot. My play time (family life, work) is not the same as back in the day. Which is why I only play games that have consensual pvp: CoX, WoW, Guld Wars. Though I'm looking at Fury. That game has pickup and play appeal to it. And has no pve grind, so that loosing in pvp won't slow you down in pve--cause there is no pve to worrry about.
yeah Fury gonna be good for some casual pvp but it remains to be seen how it will fair in the market place
losing gear shouldnt be a grind. Reduce your risk, team, and take down others you'll stockpile gear surely.
PvE'ers with the "me me" mentality will get crushed. The vets will reduce their risk and team
what grind are you guys talking about I'm lost this PVE mentality. Devs got you guys triping.
I dont grind in Starport. I earn money doing what I find fun and have excess of money stored in bank for new ships and colonies and equipment.
I promise I'll have way more impact on the universe then you will in Fury. why pay $15 for FPS pvp I dont get it. I can load up BF2142 and play that for free. When I play an MMORPG I want persistence. True persistance like building cities and razing other's work to the ground. I want epic wars against people I dont like. I want hardcore open pvp not fake wars with strangers in static worlds. Why should I fight them? Why pay money monthly for FPS pvp? I can load up Rainbow 6: Vegas & BF2142 for free and play those and have progression
yeah UO had over 200k subs at its height. It was made by college students and on a serious budget in little ole Austin, texas! Now you have bioware austin, NCSoft austin, Destination games, Sony Austin, etc and the list just keeps going on and on. Even EA mythic is in AUSTIN. I'm tired of reading ignorant posts that says UO messed up. It was made on a cheap budget and was hella profitable thats why they got bought by EA. its not hard to add up it was a big success those UO guys are all still in Austin area why you think Austin is the MMO capital here in the US UO a failure? Then I hope I create a failure that brings me 200k subs
problem was EQ showed the industry how you can just take the single player RPG model and make a ton of cash. easy to design, easy to predict how long gamers will stick around cause u control player's total level progression. It's way less risky then a dynamic MMO with full looting Ina static MMO you can totally control loot distribution. What dfo you do in WoW? In LOTRO? You grind and you grind and you grind. When you hit level cap there -will come- more leveling via uber gear and the process repeats itself. In a game where players control loot distribution this is not the case. Game publishers cannot predict how long gamers will stick around cause theres no grinding. I take what I want if you let me full loot. Thats too risky. A game Developer told me that, tons have. They laugh if you say anything sandbox
Levels / Classes / Loot all contribute to linear grind and it will always be that way. Its guaranteed money because we know we can make you guys grind for hrs and hrs until you hit cap Ive been to meetings where first thing out of producer's mouth is leveling and timesinks. Full player looting removes all this control
So keep on bashing full looting while I keep laughing at you guys while you raid to your fingers fall off and grind and grind and then whine about the grind. Every MMO sooner or later will ahve those threads and its all because you guys dont want looting. Thus, loot distribution is controlled by game developers 100% Even in Age of Conan they will control loot distribution of blood money. Who says how much my blood money is worth? AoC devs.
Caufin you argue semantics as if my message isn't clear.
I am not a griefer nor an advocate of griefing. But griefing is a freedom that some people enjoy and i respect that. An mmo should allow for griefing and there should be in-game consequences for doing so rather than barring it altogether.
Avoiding the C word, uour argument gains momentum from outspoken "mmo authoritarians" from time to time. You rally for a heavily restrictive game and label open pvp as niche*. You accuse pvp games of degrading into e peen contests between leet kiddies without pausing to consider that anything else might be facilitating this behavior. You lobby to strip players of their freedom to harm each other as an extension of your vague concept of a conflict-free mmo that conveniently changes whenever it suits your argument.
Player conflict is not going away. Players like it; obviously not all of them but at least enough so that the vast majority of game developers at least enable pvp on some level. Developers, publishers, etc like it because it is basically free content. Clan warfare, political intrigue, deception, espionage. These things do not have a shelf life. And it can cut subs short or stretch them out for years.
*Prior to WOW, Lineage and Lineage 2 had by far the largest subscriber bases of any MMO worldwide and they are open pvp, L2 in particular is notoriously brutal. Also, yes wow is a carebear game but that is not why it is so successful.
There's also a carebear conspiracy; which only the oldest and most repugnant carebears are privy too. The ones responsible for the fall of Ultima Online. There's a war going on- between carebears and humans, a war that has raged for centuries. They censor and shut out any information on the existance of open PvP games whenever possible. They set out on crusades to destroy upcoming open PvP games. They deny these games their very right to exist. They're afraid. Scared to death. They know that their reign in the genre could all come crashing down. They know that many of these millions of folks who have come into the genre in the last several years; could discover open PvP- turn on them- and so too will the genre toon. They know it could be them who only have one game devoted to them every 5+ years. It could be them who's the "niche market" if word got out, if consumers got educated, if their iron curtain over open PvP was lifted. After all- it's only been 10 years... which really ain't shit as far as trends go. It can and will all change. And next time- carebears lose. I can feel it by the disgust and restlessness amongst the MMO communities.
THere is an imbalance of power. PKers need carebears to PK. Carebears do not need PKers to play. Carebears have no reason or desire to allow Pkers to exist and for them to approve of Pkers in any game is handing power back to the Pkers. Since we know what PKers will do when they have power, you might be able to figure out why carebears won't allow this.
Reduce your risk, team, and take down others you'll stockpile gear surely. PvE'ers with the "me me" mentality will get crushed. The vets will reduce their risk and team
In several of your posts you mentioned this "reduce your risk and team".
Got some news for you, In case you missed it.... soloing is the way most players prefer to play. Being forced to group for either PVE or PvP activities is an anathema for me, so I won't play games that revolve around it.
I PVP for completely different reasons than you probably do. I tend to live by a code of honor, and won't attack other players unless provoked or they are part of a previously acknowledged enemy guild. Others chose to live by a different rule set of course, but I'm free not to play in the same game as them.
I like PVP, when its fair and balanced (for the most part).... which is why I loved DAOC and am looking forward to WAR Online.
BTW...calling EVE a PVE game destroys your credibility a bit... while it is true there are folks who spend all of their time in the "safe" zones, most people find out sooner or later that no zone is completely safe. Ask someone whose lost 600 million ISK in their industrial because they got suicide bombed in a "safe" zone....
One things for sure.... almost everyone will die to the hands of another in EVE.
EVE really has got a lot of things right.... hard core full loot PVP for those who desire it...(and many do) interfacing with PVE only folks who actually supply the bulk of the materials needed for the PVP'ers to go to war against each other.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Comments
btw its pve minded players posting why are newbies so weak? If the playing field is level then please let me know. I defend myself just fine in Starport where the server resets and vets are brought down to level with newbies.
Why are younger players such a victim and so weak????
In FPS games newbies own vets all the time. So why oh why is young players such a victim and defenseless? You speak of grinds where there is huge separation between vet and newbie. where vets wear uber gear and own the noobs
tookj a break from games back in those days and played some FPS games for a few yrs. returned to MMOs a few yrs ago and sort of still mix in all types of pvp games (shooters, hardcore pvp, regular grind pvp). I try everything
I have absolutely no problem with FFA PVP if the leveling curve is low (new players can quickly get up to speed and become competitive), or the game allows a group of newbs to take down even the most veteran player - at least in theory. In other words, theoretically a group of FPS noobs have the same chance of killing a pro player as he does of killing them. Skill would still play a role and it's quite possible that the veteran would completely trash dozens of newbs without suffering a scratch. But the game system mechanics shouldn't make it impossible for low level characters to even land a hit on higher level characters.
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
No kidding. The carebear thing is a myth anyway. We don't have carebears vs. griefers, we have those who can pvp and those who can't. 9 out of 10 'carebears' if given the chance to score a no effort pvp kill will jump at it. The fact that they are unable to generate any successful pvp encounters on their own and cry a river on the forums and /report after every gank is why we can't sustain ffa pvp in an mmo. We aren't stopping them from smelling the flowers, petting the bunnies, or w/e the hell it is pve'rs do.
It's the same as the kid who get's thrown out at first base in the sandlot, who afterwards takes his ball and goes home. He can't get back at people by playing the game fairly, so he ruins it for everyone instead.
Doktar - 70 Troll Priest - Perenolde
No kidding. The carebear thing is a myth anyway. We don't have carebears vs. griefers, we have those who can pvp and those who can't. 9 out of 10 'carebears' if given the chance to score a no effort pvp kill will jump at it. The fact that they are unable to generate any successful pvp encounters on their own and cry a river on the forums and /report after every gank is why we can't sustain ffa pvp in an mmo. We aren't stopping them from smelling the flowers, petting the bunnies, or w/e the hell it is pve'rs do.
It's the same as the kid who get's thrown out at first base in the sandlot, who afterwards takes his ball and goes home. He can't get back at people by playing the game fairly, so he ruins it for everyone instead.
I am fairly sure this is an outrageous assumption. You are assuming that everyone is as trigger happy when it comes to a free kill situation. You are assuming that I (as a PvE player) would gladly strike down anyone weaker than me given opportunity. This isn't true. The thrill you get out of killing someone that is no challenge is not a common feeling among MMO players.A lot of the time people who report abuse are doing so because the other players are creating an environment where they can't enjoy themselves. Ganking, griefing, corpse camping, and other activities that kid people jollies can ruin the experience for someone who wants to "pet bunnies". Why? Because they are usually paying 10 bucks a month to pet bunnies and feel like it is supposed to be a given that they can do this unmolested.
Griefers ruin the game for themselves. If you get your jollies out of killing someone obviously ill equipped and ill prepared you are doomed.
That's the same reason the bully eventually had detention and is more closely monitored by teachers. Not because people complain, but because the bully is abusing the rules.
Doktar - 70 Troll Priest - Perenolde
please at least try to mention non-level based grinds which suck at pvp anyway. none of my posts deal with level based grinders.
Cute story but overaggerated. I can tell you didnt play City of Heroes long. You cant be ganked in CoX lol. I know I have reached level cap in that game. -ALL- the pvp zones technically autolevel you to level cap. So, if u enter siren's call you get autoleveled to 30. How cvan you get ganked 1v1 by a higher lvl? Please enlighten me its impossible.
In WoW post-battlegrounds / arena everyone hits those instances for the high lvl honor rewards. ev1 knows open pvp practically dead in WoW. I just took a poll a few days ago some others voted that. how can you bring up WoW all u gotta do is hit the angel and go farm somewhere else. go farm an instance dungeon wit all the rest of the farmers. farm to your hearts content in 100% safety even on the PvP servers.
I thought we were at least talking pvp games where u have something to lose when you die. not level grinders like WoW when all u have is hurt pride. and cant blame a higher lvl for messing you up if you wont even hit the angel. although granted, WoW is really sucky for pvp. I'd say Guild Wars much, much better for pvp if you gonna go all instanced, casul pvp. but none of these games you listed hardcore pvp.
of course people will take your lunch money given the chance especially loot whoring games like WoW where gear >>>>>> noobs
No. Not overexaggerated at all
1. I did not mention CoX to say that I had been ganked there, I was just relating my pvp history. And yes I did and do play CoX. I have been playing CoH since release, still don't have a 50 though. Yes I do know that you are autoleveled in the pvp zones.
2. Your poll is flawed. In Wow on emerald dream the pvp is alive and well. I rarely do the battlegrounds because I find them well boring. Go to stranglethorn vale sometime and listen to the chat for 10 minutes. The PVP is alive and the ganking is furious. Yes you can hit the angel and go somewhere else but for lvl 30-40 that is the best place.
3. Of course you can blame a higher level for messing you up. They can mess you up whether you hit the angle or not. Having item loot does not make it harder or easier pvp, it just irritates some people while giving others a reason to pvp.
Venge Sunsoar
Also, in UO, if you were an evil bastard such as I was, certain NPCs would not do business with you. I did have my mule to purchase supplies, but then he was open to the same fate as those I killed. Open PvP adds a nice suspense to the game. The number one thing that immediately began to kill mmorpgs for me was the implementation of the radar. You could no longer stealth kill your player enemies because the see the red blip (AC).
All-in-all, if implemented properly, open PvP will work.
There are two things that bother me about the anti-pvp attitude as put forth by the OP:
1. It is restrictive. Being unable to PK some idiot who truely deserves it because of pansy ass game mechanics is unbearably frustrating to me. When i played WOW, the players i wanted to PK were not on the opposing faction but my own KSing "allies". By the way. You people claim that pvp encourages idiot behavior, look at WOW. This is hardly a pvp game yet look at its player base.
2. It is unrealistic. I am a huge advocate of immersion and realism in MMOs. Arbitrary restrictions on what you can or can't do is a huge immersion factor. If you want to kill someone in real life, some inexplicable law of physics doesn't prevent you from doing it.
I get incensed when i think that people are actually willing to throw these two points out the window as they hump the dream of a pvp-less MMO career. MMOs are a celebration of identity and if my identity is a polygonal serial killer then so be it.
You dont know what you're talking about lol Starport is listed on this site. It has poermaverses too you know where there is no reset.
please at least try to mention non-level based grinds which suck at pvp anyway. none of my posts deal with level based grinders.
Cute story but overaggerated. I can tell you didnt play City of Heroes long. You cant be ganked in CoX lol. I know I have reached level cap in that game. -ALL- the pvp zones technically autolevel you to level cap. So, if u enter siren's call you get autoleveled to 30. How cvan you get ganked 1v1 by a higher lvl? Please enlighten me its impossible.
In WoW post-battlegrounds / arena everyone hits those instances for the high lvl honor rewards. ev1 knows open pvp practically dead in WoW. I just took a poll a few days ago some others voted that. how can you bring up WoW all u gotta do is hit the angel and go farm somewhere else. go farm an instance dungeon wit all the rest of the farmers. farm to your hearts content in 100% safety even on the PvP servers.
I thought we were at least talking pvp games where u have something to lose when you die. not level grinders like WoW when all u have is hurt pride. and cant blame a higher lvl for messing you up if you wont even hit the angel. although granted, WoW is really sucky for pvp. I'd say Guild Wars much, much better for pvp if you gonna go all instanced, casul pvp. but none of these games you listed hardcore pvp.
of course people will take your lunch money given the chance especially loot whoring games like WoW where gear >>>>>> noobs
No. Not overexaggerated at all
1. I did not mention CoX to say that I had been ganked there, I was just relating my pvp history. And yes I did and do play CoX. I have been playing CoH since release, still don't have a 50 though. Yes I do know that you are autoleveled in the pvp zones.
2. Your poll is flawed. In Wow on emerald dream the pvp is alive and well. I rarely do the battlegrounds because I find them well boring. Go to stranglethorn vale sometime and listen to the chat for 10 minutes. The PVP is alive and the ganking is furious. Yes you can hit the angel and go somewhere else but for lvl 30-40 that is the best place.
3. Of course you can blame a higher level for messing you up. They can mess you up whether you hit the angle or not. Having item loot does not make it harder or easier pvp, it just irritates some people while giving others a reason to pvp.
Venge Sunsoar
look guy not to be ruide but no one vcares level grinders suck for pvp I've been saying this all along. WoW is an uber loot grind. wporst game for pvp ive seen. I'd rate Guild Wars way higher because there is no seperation between vet and newbie
I wont deny level grinders suck for pvp. Unless we're discussing Guild Wars which is good for casual pvpers. but alas, I'm not disagreeing with you. I said level grinders suck for pvp. Thyose are PVE based games
It had lots of problems that account for it not being a success, besides FFA PvP.
Obvioiusly FFA PvP isn't as popular as other alternatives, but most games will open up a FFA PvP server. Take all those games with all those FFA servers, and that's a lot of players that are looking for a good FFA game. It's enough to make it profitable for a company that designs a good FFA MMORPG.
At the same time, it's impossible to prove a negative, so this is really just a cop-out. The 'open, full-loot PVP' crowd can't even adequately explain what such a game 'done right' would look like, or what they think was done wrong in the old games. Pretty much all I ever hear is either 'pre-trammel UO in 3D' or something that drastically waters down the 'open pvp' and 'full loot' portion of the ruleset.
You completely missed the point. Study harder.Right, like camping gates/zones/flight points, wearing a PVP specialized setup to attack someone in a PVE specialized setup, attacking players who have less skills/levels, attacking players in worse gear, attacking with a large group against a small group, ambushing someone who's in the middle of PVE, and so on. The 'hardcore' PVPers are the ones who do the most taking of the easy path.
Now you're just responding to a proposed fact with a rant. You have conveniently left out VPellen's third point, PvP and PvE do not mix. So according to his position your example scenario would not exist.Most people don't want to lose their stuff over and over in these sorts of situations, which is why they avoid the 'hardcore' PVP games. If you're not lootable, you don't have to go grind back your stuff after a fight, you don't lose the fruits of your mining (or other PVE pursuit) if you get jumped, and so on. And real PVPers (as opposed to the guys who just want to gank) want to seek out challenging fights, which gank-and-loot PVP actively discourages by punishing players for losing a fight.
Again with the PvE vs PvP. The myriad of PvE MMO's has conditioned people to believe that there are no items without grinding. That does not have to be the case for a non-PvE PvP focussed MMO. Gear can be made less uber and more obtainable. It is not the size of your sword it is how you use it.
What it comes down to is the 'hardcore' PVP crowd wants victims, and most people don't care to pay money to be someone else's victim.
Stay in school.Of course it's restrictive. Your inability to pickpocket another player's belongings is also restrictive, as is your inability to logon to their account whenever you desire. Your subjective opinion about another paying customer's character is not relevant.
Of course it's unrealistic. So is one person being able to absorb damage equal to the totality of the first ten minutes of Omaha beach. It's a game, that people pay for. It's not your game, you don't own it, you're just another player.
If you get incensed about anything regarding an MMORPG, you need to remind yourself again that it's a game. It's not a "celebration" of anything, it's a game.
Unrestricted PvP will remain unpopular to the vast majority of those willing to pay for a game, precisely because of people with your mindset. We are not going to give control of our gaming experience, which we pay for, to a self-absorbed individual who thinks the game is a "celebration of the identity of homicidal mania" with the rest of us as targets.
We wish to play our game, PvP only when we desire, and under conditions that ensure a fairness in combat. We pay for entertainment, in a wide spectrum of gaming areas, of which PvP is only one possible avenue. Unrestricted PvP typically always degenerates into something less than entertainment, and more about juvenile efforts at self-actualization by a handful of disturbed children.
First a few things about UO.
The fact is that EA bought Origins before UO was started, and it was EA's money that allowed UO to be produced. However, UO was a new idea, or at least a massively extended idea from earlier MMO type games that included so much more in a "worldly" sense. UO was the first effort at a truelly complete world. (And I think it's very sad that so many gamers, both PvE and PvP, seem to miss this point because newer games have gone away from this effort, and thus restricted game play to their own narrower arenas.)
Because UO was new in concept, EA execs pretty much stayed away from it. They left it in the hands of Garriot and co. It wasn't untill UO proved to be such a success that EA started putting their grubby fingers in it. The blind wanted to take over from those with the vision.
UO's problem from rampant PKing wasn't that they were falling in subscriptions so much as that they were losing subs. From one of their ex lead developers "UO lost subscriptions in the 6 figures because of PKing" (paraphrased). That's 100,000+ compared to about 200,000 or less that were still there, and the complaints were still very heated. So UO was still trying to grow, but the constant losses were keeping it from expanding. Any company that loses 1/3 of their customers (or more) is going to want to stop what is causing the bleeding.
But UO wasn't just a PvP game. EVE and Guild Wars prove that a game made just for PvP can work. What leaves me wondering is the fact that PvP servers, like Fel, don't work in games that are built for other things too. Yet, EVE and Guild Wars work, why is that? Is it in the expectations? I don't quite understand this. Why did Fel in UO fail so badly? Why doesn't Siege P. work for UO? And it wasn't the items that came with the AoS expansion, because Fel was pretty dead except for the Power Scrolls before that came out. Not totally, mind you, but it certainly wasn't very active. Maybe it was the competition of newer games, maybe it was the smaller audiance divided by shards and other games, but none of this seems to really strike me as the cause. Why didn't more PvPers play Fel (or PvP servers in games like AC) on a regular basis?
(And we can't compare this to games like WoW and DAoC because they didn't have looting)
Once upon a time....
I like games with pvp. PVP when I choose to do it.
I don't like games with open ffa pvp/looting.
Why?
Cause I just don't have the time I used to when I was younger to deal with the consquences of loosing loot.
My play time (family life, work) is not the same as back in the day.
Which is why I only play games that have consensual pvp: CoX, WoW, Guld Wars.
Though I'm looking at Fury. That game has pickup and play appeal to it. And has no pve grind, so that loosing in pvp won't slow you down in pve--cause there is no pve to worrry about.
EvE cater to the farmers period thats why it works. everyone i know here that plays EVE are miners lol and play on PvE servers when given the chance. They safe zone and farm and farm.
Guild Wars accounts for only 14% revenue according to NCSoft quarterly reports. Lineage is 75% its smokes Guild Wars. Both titles are international. Hell I saw GW: Nightfall at the E3 it had crazy advertising. I like GW, I do. It doesnt charge me money and at least theres no seperation between vet and noob. GW is fine for casual pvp but the reality is Lineage smokes GW in the market place inspite of its mass success
your post proves nothing period
for awhile GW catered to farmers seriously. At launch I couldnt earn skills from pvp. you had to get those from PvE grinding. They screwed up. they resolved that post launch thankfully after a few months or whatever.
yeah Fury gonna be good for some casual pvp but it remains to be seen how it will fair in the market place
losing gear shouldnt be a grind. Reduce your risk, team, and take down others you'll stockpile gear surely.
PvE'ers with the "me me" mentality will get crushed. The vets will reduce their risk and team
what grind are you guys talking about I'm lost this PVE mentality. Devs got you guys triping.
I dont grind in Starport. I earn money doing what I find fun and have excess of money stored in bank for new ships and colonies and equipment.
I promise I'll have way more impact on the universe then you will in Fury. why pay $15 for FPS pvp I dont get it. I can load up BF2142 and play that for free. When I play an MMORPG I want persistence. True persistance like building cities and razing other's work to the ground. I want epic wars against people I dont like. I want hardcore open pvp not fake wars with strangers in static worlds. Why should I fight them? Why pay money monthly for FPS pvp? I can load up Rainbow 6: Vegas & BF2142 for free and play those and have progression
I am not a griefer nor an advocate of griefing. But griefing is a freedom that some people enjoy and i respect that. An mmo should allow for griefing and there should be in-game consequences for doing so rather than barring it altogether.
Avoiding the C word, uour argument gains momentum from outspoken "mmo authoritarians" from time to time. You rally for a heavily restrictive game and label open pvp as niche*. You accuse pvp games of degrading into e peen contests between leet kiddies without pausing to consider that anything else might be facilitating this behavior. You lobby to strip players of their freedom to harm each other as an extension of your vague concept of a conflict-free mmo that conveniently changes whenever it suits your argument.
Player conflict is not going away. Players like it; obviously not all of them but at least enough so that the vast majority of game developers at least enable pvp on some level. Developers, publishers, etc like it because it is basically free content. Clan warfare, political intrigue, deception, espionage. These things do not have a shelf life. And it can cut subs short or stretch them out for years.
*Prior to WOW, Lineage and Lineage 2 had by far the largest subscriber bases of any MMO worldwide and they are open pvp, L2 in particular is notoriously brutal. Also, yes wow is a carebear game but that is not why it is so successful.
Got some news for you, In case you missed it.... soloing is the way most players prefer to play. Being forced to group for either PVE or PvP activities is an anathema for me, so I won't play games that revolve around it.
I PVP for completely different reasons than you probably do. I tend to live by a code of honor, and won't attack other players unless provoked or they are part of a previously acknowledged enemy guild. Others chose to live by a different rule set of course, but I'm free not to play in the same game as them.
I like PVP, when its fair and balanced (for the most part).... which is why I loved DAOC and am looking forward to WAR Online.
BTW...calling EVE a PVE game destroys your credibility a bit... while it is true there are folks who spend all of their time in the "safe" zones, most people find out sooner or later that no zone is completely safe. Ask someone whose lost 600 million ISK in their industrial because they got suicide bombed in a "safe" zone....
One things for sure.... almost everyone will die to the hands of another in EVE.
EVE really has got a lot of things right.... hard core full loot PVP for those who desire it...(and many do) interfacing with PVE only folks who actually supply the bulk of the materials needed for the PVP'ers to go to war against each other.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon