Pre-trammel UO was fun because not only did it allow full open pvp, the game had a steep learning curve. But once you get past the hard learning curve youll realize how realistic UO actually is. The things your do, like making bandages or crafting, closely represent what you would do in real life. So the game was almost like a sandbox. And thats what made it a blast, all the limitless possibilities of what you could do, there was so much untapped potential. << Thats what makes games last, thats what makes games successful.
Just for some clarification, Trammel preceded Siege Perilous in UO. They made Siege Perilous because the pvpers were complaining about Trammel.
And while Lineage does quite well in Asia, it has a very small following in US/Europe. Lineage is the ultimate grind and farmer fest which the Asians love and most of us so dispise.
Reduce your risk, team, and take down others you'll stockpile gear surely. PvE'ers with the "me me" mentality will get crushed. The vets will reduce their risk and team
In several of your posts you mentioned this "reduce your risk and team".
Got some news for you, In case you missed it.... soloing is the way most players prefer to play. Being forced to group for either PVE or PvP activities is an anathema for me, so I won't play games that revolve around it.
I PVP for completely different reasons than you probably do. I tend to live by a code of honor, and won't attack other players unless provoked or they are part of a previously acknowledged enemy guild. Others chose to live by a different rule set of course, but I'm free not to play in the same game as them.
I like PVP, when its fair and balanced (for the most part).... which is why I loved DAOC and am looking forward to WAR Online.
BTW...calling EVE a PVE game destroys your credibility a bit... while it is true there are folks who spend all of their time in the "safe" zones, most people find out sooner or later that no zone is completely safe. Ask someone whose lost 600 million ISK in their industrial because they got suicide bombed in a "safe" zone....
One things for sure.... almost everyone will die to the hands of another in EVE.
EVE really has got a lot of things right.... hard core full loot PVP for those who desire it...(and many do) interfacing with PVE only folks who actually supply the bulk of the materials needed for the PVP'ers to go to war against each other.
thats nice you enjoy solo PvP. but thats FPS Deathmatch mentality. In a game that has risk vs reward soloers will lose everything they own. In reality, its about TEAM not about you. Just like in RL where you see massive armies waging wars.
If I wanted to solo pvp I'd play a freaking shooter. I'm not paying $15 a month to just play by myself. Solo pvp has no place in an MMO whereas we all gain strength from each other portraying different roles and duties.
There's also a carebear conspiracy; which only the oldest and most repugnant carebears are privy too. The ones responsible for the fall of Ultima Online. There's a war going on- between carebears and humans, a war that has raged for centuries. They censor and shut out any information on the existance of open PvP games whenever possible. They set out on crusades to destroy upcoming open PvP games. They deny these games their very right to exist. They're afraid. Scared to death. They know that their reign in the genre could all come crashing down. They know that many of these millions of folks who have come into the genre in the last several years; could discover open PvP- turn on them- and so too will the genre toon. They know it could be them who only have one game devoted to them every 5+ years. It could be them who's the "niche market" if word got out, if consumers got educated, if their iron curtain over open PvP was lifted. After all- it's only been 10 years... which really ain't shit as far as trends go. It can and will all change. And next time- carebears lose. I can feel it by the disgust and restlessness amongst the MMO communities.
THere is an imbalance of power. PKers need carebears to PK. Carebears do not need PKers to play. Carebears have no reason or desire to allow Pkers to exist and for them to approve of Pkers in any game is handing power back to the Pkers. Since we know what PKers will do when they have power, you might be able to figure out why carebears won't allow this.
I dont understand why do we need pve'ers on a hardcore open pvp server? Why? Put them on their own server. Let them farm all day long in 100% safety on their own server. I dont want them on my servers period. We cannot cater to the "me me" farmer mentality. They cannot coexist on the same servers.
PvE = Static content
PvP with Looting and loss = Dynamic Content
PvPers will fight and fight til nothing is left. Everything will be rubble. This cannot work for pve'ers. They cannot coexist on our servers. They can't. Give them their own PvE games. LOTRO is good for them, 100% PvE.
I'm not here to persuade any PvE'er to join on my servers. I want them to have their own servers and farm in safety. I'm here to share ideas with fellow warriors and future devs. Farmers bloat economy and hoard all the uber, phat lootz. PvE'er = farmer
And when they come to pvp zones they will own us PvP'ers because they got all the phat lootz!
Screw that give them their own static servers and give me a server 100% player run. It will be all out war. Let the blood spill lol
PVE'er - needs constant level progression. PVPer- loves balanced playing field
look at FPS games they're all balanced playing fields and they're hella popular. I want that but the depth that only MMO can provide (persistant universe)
I understand that not everyone enjoys pvp. However,
There are two things that bother me about the anti-pvp attitude as put forth by the OP: 1. It is restrictive. Being unable to PK some idiot who truely deserves it because of pansy ass game mechanics is unbearably frustrating to me.
...
2. It is unrealistic.
...
I get incensed
...
MMOs are a celebration of identity
Of course it's restrictive. Your inability to pickpocket another player's belongings is also restrictive, as is your inability to logon to their account whenever you desire. Your subjective opinion about another paying customer's character is not relevant.
Of course it's unrealistic. So is one person being able to absorb damage equal to the totality of the first ten minutes of Omaha beach. It's a game, that people pay for. It's not your game, you don't own it, you're just another player.
If you get incensed about anything regarding an MMORPG, you need to remind yourself again that it's a game. It's not a "celebration" of anything, it's a game.
Unrestricted PvP will remain unpopular to the vast majority of those willing to pay for a game, precisely because of people with your mindset. We are not going to give control of our gaming experience, which we pay for, to a self-absorbed individual who thinks the game is a "celebration of the identity of homicidal mania" with the rest of us as targets.
We wish to play our game, PvP only when we desire, and under conditions that ensure a fairness in combat. We pay for entertainment, in a wide spectrum of gaming areas, of which PvP is only one possible avenue. Unrestricted PvP typically always degenerates into something less than entertainment, and more about juvenile efforts at self-actualization by a handful of disturbed children.
Agreed. The fantasic ideals put forth by the PvP-centric players here are much less grand in practice. The idea of a bloodthirsty world where anything can happen devolves into a corpse camping lolpwndu-fest. I wish people could understand that games that are considered very "niche" are just poorly executed games were kids get their jollies.
There's also a carebear conspiracy; which only the oldest and most repugnant carebears are privy too. The ones responsible for the fall of Ultima Online. There's a war going on- between carebears and humans, a war that has raged for centuries. They censor and shut out any information on the existance of open PvP games whenever possible. They set out on crusades to destroy upcoming open PvP games. They deny these games their very right to exist. They're afraid. Scared to death. They know that their reign in the genre could all come crashing down. They know that many of these millions of folks who have come into the genre in the last several years; could discover open PvP- turn on them- and so too will the genre toon. They know it could be them who only have one game devoted to them every 5+ years. It could be them who's the "niche market" if word got out, if consumers got educated, if their iron curtain over open PvP was lifted. After all- it's only been 10 years... which really ain't shit as far as trends go. It can and will all change. And next time- carebears lose. I can feel it by the disgust and restlessness amongst the MMO communities.
THere is an imbalance of power. PKers need carebears to PK. Carebears do not need PKers to play. Carebears have no reason or desire to allow Pkers to exist and for them to approve of Pkers in any game is handing power back to the Pkers. Since we know what PKers will do when they have power, you might be able to figure out why carebears won't allow this.
I dont understand why do we need pve'ers on a hardcore open pvp server? Why? Put them on their own server. Let them farm all day long in 100% safety on their own server. I dont want them on my servers period. We cannot cater to the "me me" farmer mentality. They cannot coexist on the same servers.
PvE = Static content
PvP with Looting and loss = Dynamic Content
PvPers will fight and fight til nothing is left. Everything will be rubble. This cannot work for pve'ers. They cannot coexist on our servers. They can't. Give them their own PvE games. LOTRO is good for them, 100% PvE.
I'm not here to persuade any PvE'er to join on my servers. I want them to have their own servers and farm in safety. I'm here to share ideas with fellow warriors and future devs. Farmers bloat economy and hoard all the uber, phat lootz. PvE'er = farmer
And when they come to pvp zones they will own us PvP'ers because they got all the phat lootz!
Screw that give them their own static servers and give me a server 100% player run. It will be all out war. Let the blood spill lol
PVE'er - needs constant level progression. PVPer- loves balanced playing field
look at FPS games they're all balanced playing fields and they're hella popular. I want that but the depth that only MMO can provide (persistant universe)
This is a completely biased opinion. You are trying to imply that all PvP players are searching for a mirror match. This is not true in the slightest. I've never been in a game which had PvP and players that ran around in groups or solo looking for other groups or solo players of equal calibre.
Another assumption you've made is that PvE play is "static". I'm imagining that this is based on the fact that most dungeon or monster spawns are the same every time. This does not make PvE less dynamic. Many instances, dungeons, and other PvE lands offer contect which players enjoy. Otherwise wouldn't PvP focused games be more popular?
Also, there is no way to make a balanced PvP persistant world that really works. Players in a persistant world desire content which allows them to progress. This means that a veteran player will always be more equipped and skilled than new players. This persistant world also usually allows new players to be present in the same areas as veterans. The world you are seeking only exists in FPS games. Why? Because vets can still be killed by a wild rocket launcher carried by a novice.
Don't get me wrong, I would like to see someone make a fair PvP MMO, but it will never happen. As long as a minority of players have enough free time to exploit the world around them there will always be those who remain untouchable and flaunt that power.
I won't go into the fact that you believe PvE players are after a grind. That's a whole different argument.
I understand that not everyone enjoys pvp. However,
There are two things that bother me about the anti-pvp attitude as put forth by the OP:
1. It is restrictive. Being unable to PK some idiot who truely deserves it because of pansy ass game mechanics is unbearably frustrating to me. When i played WOW, the players i wanted to PK were not on the opposing faction but my own KSing "allies". By the way. You people claim that pvp encourages idiot behavior, look at WOW. This is hardly a pvp game yet look at its player base.
2. It is unrealistic. I am a huge advocate of immersion and realism in MMOs. Arbitrary restrictions on what you can or can't do is a huge immersion factor. If you want to kill someone in real life, some inexplicable law of physics doesn't prevent you from doing it.
I get incensed when i think that people are actually willing to throw these two points out the window as they hump the dream of a pvp-less MMO career. MMOs are a celebration of identity and if my identity is a polygonal serial killer then so be it.
1. Being unable to PK someone because they're being a jerk sucks.
But you know what's much worse? Getting ganked every time you leave town or turn your back on another player. That's what happens in an unrestricted PK game and it's much worse than the occaisional jerk.
2. If you want realisim let's have PKs that get caught put in prison and be unable to play that character until their sentence is finished. Since most committed PKs have the body count of a serial killer, that would pretty much mean a PK character would be on suspension for life. Oh, and you only get one character per account.
I must also admit something. I came to MMORPGs because I like regular RPGs and Pen and Paper RPGs.
Why do I like RPGs and Pen and Paper RPGs?:
Treasure - Getting new gear is always fun in a game. Especially when you notice a difference when fighting, or can advance to new areas because of the equipment (see: Hookshot in Zelda)
Lore/Quests/Story line - I enjoy playing RPGs because alongside the usual hack and slash is a story to become involved in. Just like literature these stories put emotion and feeling into the actions of a character. While playing you experience this. It gives the entertainment value to a game. Even FPSers like Half-Life have a storyline to follow
Bosses/Mobs - They add a dynamic to the game. They give the risk so that the reward is sweet. They are also usually creatures which you feel no remorse for, or learn to have (see: Bixies, Gnolls, Goblins, etc). In RPGs they become the meat of the content in a game
Now, when I started playing an MMORPG I realized that I was no longer the "hero", and that many players were working in conjunction to real this "boss" and complete the "story". I liked this because it meant a lot of people to explore, fight, talk to, laugh with, etc. Every part of the three things I mentioned earlier became that much cooler. Instead of making the princess happy I was enjoying the content of the game with real people. Very cool.
Now, I understand PvP and full loot. It adds a bit of realism and danger to an MMO. The problem is that players abuse the system in order to grief other players. This ultimately ends up screwing up the vision the new player had for the game.
Let me put it this way. The hardcore PvPer is Ganon (the end guy from Zelda) and the new player in Young Link. The designers of the game purposefully made Ganon hard because he is the final encounter.
The developers never allowed Ganon to pop out in the forest and smote young link in one hit.
Even though Ganon existed at that point the developers allowed him to be a goal rather than a game deturant. If you, as the hardcore PvPer, act as a player killing force of unfair advantage you add something to the game which turns people away.
Regardless of the "good" PvPer who only wants equal contests the system will never thrive as long as Johnny Pwnsauce is standing right at the edge of the city waiting to axe anyone who looks like they have 9 hit points.
The person who ruins the game isn't the player who complains about being ganked, but the ganker who continually kills players with no other benefit than his own twisted pleasure.
I understand that not everyone enjoys pvp. However,
There are two things that bother me about the anti-pvp attitude as put forth by the OP:
1. It is restrictive. Being unable to PK some idiot who truely deserves it because of pansy ass game mechanics is unbearably frustrating to me. When i played WOW, the players i wanted to PK were not on the opposing faction but my own KSing "allies". By the way. You people claim that pvp encourages idiot behavior, look at WOW. This is hardly a pvp game yet look at its player base.
2. It is unrealistic. I am a huge advocate of immersion and realism in MMOs. Arbitrary restrictions on what you can or can't do is a huge immersion factor. If you want to kill someone in real life, some inexplicable law of physics doesn't prevent you from doing it.
I get incensed when i think that people are actually willing to throw these two points out the window as they hump the dream of a pvp-less MMO career. MMOs are a celebration of identity and if my identity is a polygonal serial killer then so be it.
1. Being unable to PK someone because they're being a jerk sucks.
But you know what's much worse? Getting ganked every time you leave town or turn your back on another player. That's what happens in an unrestricted PK game and it's much worse than the occaisional jerk.
2. If you want realisim let's have PKs that get caught put in prison and be unable to play that character until their sentence is finished. Since most committed PKs have the body count of a serial killer, that would pretty much mean a PK character would be on suspension for life. Oh, and you only get one character per account.
You wouldn't like that though.
A similar system was placed within the Ultima Online world. Instead of being jailed players who were murderers would be penalized when they were killed. A "Red" player (killer) would have to remain a ghost until their murder counts decayed (which took a lot of time logged in). This was similar to being in jail because players could not do anything while working off counts. Player killers hate this and it is one reason more PvP players in UO think the game sucks now.
I understand that not everyone enjoys pvp. However,
There are two things that bother me about the anti-pvp attitude as put forth by the OP: 1. It is restrictive. Being unable to PK some idiot who truely deserves it because of pansy ass game mechanics is unbearably frustrating to me.
...
2. It is unrealistic.
...
I get incensed
...
MMOs are a celebration of identity
Of course it's restrictive. Your inability to pickpocket another player's belongings is also restrictive, as is your inability to logon to their account whenever you desire. Your subjective opinion about another paying customer's character is not relevant.
Of course it's unrealistic. So is one person being able to absorb damage equal to the totality of the first ten minutes of Omaha beach. It's a game, that people pay for. It's not your game, you don't own it, you're just another player.
If you get incensed about anything regarding an MMORPG, you need to remind yourself again that it's a game. It's not a "celebration" of anything, it's a game.
Unrestricted PvP will remain unpopular to the vast majority of those willing to pay for a game, precisely because of people with your mindset. We are not going to give control of our gaming experience, which we pay for, to a self-absorbed individual who thinks the game is a "celebration of the identity of homicidal mania" with the rest of us as targets.
We wish to play our game, PvP only when we desire, and under conditions that ensure a fairness in combat. We pay for entertainment, in a wide spectrum of gaming areas, of which PvP is only one possible avenue. Unrestricted PvP typically always degenerates into something less than entertainment, and more about juvenile efforts at self-actualization by a handful of disturbed children.
Agreed. The fantasic ideals put forth by the PvP-centric players here are much less grand in practice. The idea of a bloodthirsty world where anything can happen devolves into a corpse camping lolpwndu-fest. I wish people could understand that games that are considered very "niche" are just poorly executed games were kids get their jollies.
omg you need to play more games there's no camping in Starport what broken PVE game do you speak of? Real pvp games dont allow that.
I understand that not everyone enjoys pvp. However,
There are two things that bother me about the anti-pvp attitude as put forth by the OP:
1. It is restrictive. Being unable to PK some idiot who truely deserves it because of pansy ass game mechanics is unbearably frustrating to me. When i played WOW, the players i wanted to PK were not on the opposing faction but my own KSing "allies". By the way. You people claim that pvp encourages idiot behavior, look at WOW. This is hardly a pvp game yet look at its player base.
2. It is unrealistic. I am a huge advocate of immersion and realism in MMOs. Arbitrary restrictions on what you can or can't do is a huge immersion factor. If you want to kill someone in real life, some inexplicable law of physics doesn't prevent you from doing it.
I get incensed when i think that people are actually willing to throw these two points out the window as they hump the dream of a pvp-less MMO career. MMOs are a celebration of identity and if my identity is a polygonal serial killer then so be it.
1. Being unable to PK someone because they're being a jerk sucks.
But you know what's much worse? Getting ganked every time you leave town or turn your back on another player. That's what happens in an unrestricted PK game and it's much worse than the occaisional jerk.
2. If you want realisim let's have PKs that get caught put in prison and be unable to play that character until their sentence is finished. Since most committed PKs have the body count of a serial killer, that would pretty much mean a PK character would be on suspension for life. Oh, and you only get one character per account.
You wouldn't like that though.
A similar system was placed within the Ultima Online world. Instead of being jailed players who were murderers would be penalized when they were killed. A "Red" player (killer) would have to remain a ghost until their murder counts decayed (which took a lot of time logged in). This was similar to being in jail because players could not do anything while working off counts. Player killers hate this and it is one reason more PvP players in UO think the game sucks now.
So there you have it.
Yeah there is no reason to punish players for PKing really. you only need hardcore punishments only if you trying to keep the farmers happy. I have realized it much better to give them their own server
Farmers want control. They want to win. They wanna sit back and take it easy. They want to win. PK'ers are a random element they cannot control
What are all the farmers posting about right now? They're complaining bout some bulley in a broken pvp game took their lunch money. They want revenge. But instead of teaming and reducing their risk and reclaiming their stuff they want a bounty system?
I like the depth a bounty system proposes but I dont think we need to punish players on a hardcore pvp server. thats what I didnt like bout Rappelz. discouraged good, pvp and removed my control over the world.
I must also admit something. I came to MMORPGs because I like regular RPGs and Pen and Paper RPGs.
Why do I like RPGs and Pen and Paper RPGs?:
Treasure - Getting new gear is always fun in a game. Especially when you notice a difference when fighting, or can advance to new areas because of the equipment (see: Hookshot in Zelda) Lore/Quests/Story line - I enjoy playing RPGs because alongside the usual hack and slash is a story to become involved in. Just like literature these stories put emotion and feeling into the actions of a character. While playing you experience this. It gives the entertainment value to a game. Even FPSers like Half-Life have a storyline to follow Bosses/Mobs - They add a dynamic to the game. They give the risk so that the reward is sweet. They are also usually creatures which you feel no remorse for, or learn to have (see: Bixies, Gnolls, Goblins, etc). In RPGs they become the meat of the content in a game
Now, when I started playing an MMORPG I realized that I was no longer the "hero", and that many players were working in conjunction to real this "boss" and complete the "story". I liked this because it meant a lot of people to explore, fight, talk to, laugh with, etc. Every part of the three things I mentioned earlier became that much cooler. Instead of making the princess happy I was enjoying the content of the game with real people. Very cool.
Now, I understand PvP and full loot. It adds a bit of realism and danger to an MMO. The problem is that players abuse the system in order to grief other players. This ultimately ends up screwing up the vision the new player had for the game.
Let me put it this way. The hardcore PvPer is Ganon (the end guy from Zelda) and the new player in Young Link. The designers of the game purposefully made Ganon hard because he is the final encounter.
The developers never allowed Ganon to pop out in the forest and smote young link in one hit.
Even though Ganon existed at that point the developers allowed him to be a goal rather than a game deturant. If you, as the hardcore PvPer, act as a player killing force of unfair advantage you add something to the game which turns people away.
Regardless of the "good" PvPer who only wants equal contests the system will never thrive as long as Johnny Pwnsauce is standing right at the edge of the city waiting to axe anyone who looks like they have 9 hit points.
The person who ruins the game isn't the player who complains about being ganked, but the ganker who continually kills players with no other benefit than his own twisted pleasure.
good post about your history I respect the old timers / true old school RPG'ers that started it all. I do.
Okay now please listen/read- I will elaborate for you one last time. I will not be rude. I will elaborate on this for you guys that like to farm PVE content.
Players that dont wanna get destroyed should simply roll on the PvE / consentual PvP servers or play LOTRO. Seriously its a good game for PVE'ers.
If they roll on the hardcore pvp one- its okay for them to transfer to PvE. But they cant bring their toon back. It will be permenant and u will have to reroll to come back. Because Farmers ruin pvp period. We dont want you going to PvE server, earning everything through PvE, then coming back and owning us. Because you will if the MMO in question is somewhat loot driven
On the hardcore pvp servers you can't let camping exist. You just cant it ruins pvp. It sucks. I'm -not- a proponent of camping period.
you speak of a non-issue in a well designed game. Maybe that exists in WoW which sucks for pvp anyway (its just an MMO for farmers period). it is enough you just lost everything you had on you. Its okay for devs to respawn you in some slight safe zone to buy a new ship if you have the money. In this safe place like a space station you can buy your ship. then warp to whatever place you wanna go after that. If someone camping the gates, you should be able to turn around.
But you will accept the risks. We cannot punish your attacked. You must learn to team and fight back or get ran off the server.
We cant allow people to be exploited. Even FPS games dont allow that- not the good ones. You have spawn points.
But we will allow an army to gank the soloer. Yep. We do not encourage "me me" mentality. We encourage teaming. FPS deathmatchers will get chased off the server first or right behind the Farmers. You cant make money on this type of server. What moron will buy an account from you knowing they gonna lose it all? very few to zero. you're toon is disposable. expendable. Its not about you- its about the community
I encourage safe zones for pvpers to buy new ships like in Starport. I do, I'm not that bad. If you have the cash u should be able to bounce back man. If not, well see ya next rebang lol. well you do have option to get the newb boats again if you lost it all somehow. But sdmart players will reduce their risk no matter what and store their money in banks.
we just cant have people farming in safe zones though. I'm fine with people farming in safety in a casual pvp MMO cause that just to introduce pve'ers to PvP or a place for people to just farm and bloat the economy. The casual pvpers will realize the farmers are owning them and will want full looting or they will just farm. meaning they're a farmer anyway.
There's also a carebear conspiracy; which only the oldest and most repugnant carebears are privy too. The ones responsible for the fall of Ultima Online. There's a war going on- between carebears and humans, a war that has raged for centuries. They censor and shut out any information on the existance of open PvP games whenever possible. They set out on crusades to destroy upcoming open PvP games. They deny these games their very right to exist. They're afraid. Scared to death. They know that their reign in the genre could all come crashing down. They know that many of these millions of folks who have come into the genre in the last several years; could discover open PvP- turn on them- and so too will the genre toon. They know it could be them who only have one game devoted to them every 5+ years. It could be them who's the "niche market" if word got out, if consumers got educated, if their iron curtain over open PvP was lifted. After all- it's only been 10 years... which really ain't shit as far as trends go. It can and will all change. And next time- carebears lose. I can feel it by the disgust and restlessness amongst the MMO communities.
THere is an imbalance of power. PKers need carebears to PK. Carebears do not need PKers to play. Carebears have no reason or desire to allow Pkers to exist and for them to approve of Pkers in any game is handing power back to the Pkers. Since we know what PKers will do when they have power, you might be able to figure out why carebears won't allow this.
I dont understand why do we need pve'ers on a hardcore open pvp server? Why? Put them on their own server. Let them farm all day long in 100% safety on their own server. I dont want them on my servers period. We cannot cater to the "me me" farmer mentality. They cannot coexist on the same servers.
PvE = Static content
PvP with Looting and loss = Dynamic Content
PvPers will fight and fight til nothing is left. Everything will be rubble. This cannot work for pve'ers. They cannot coexist on our servers. They can't. Give them their own PvE games. LOTRO is good for them, 100% PvE.
I'm not here to persuade any PvE'er to join on my servers. I want them to have their own servers and farm in safety. I'm here to share ideas with fellow warriors and future devs. Farmers bloat economy and hoard all the uber, phat lootz. PvE'er = farmer
And when they come to pvp zones they will own us PvP'ers because they got all the phat lootz!
Screw that give them their own static servers and give me a server 100% player run. It will be all out war. Let the blood spill lol
PVE'er - needs constant level progression. PVPer- loves balanced playing field
look at FPS games they're all balanced playing fields and they're hella popular. I want that but the depth that only MMO can provide (persistant universe)
This is a completely biased opinion. You are trying to imply that all PvP players are searching for a mirror match. This is not true in the slightest. I've never been in a game which had PvP and players that ran around in groups or solo looking for other groups or solo players of equal calibre.
Another assumption you've made is that PvE play is "static". I'm imagining that this is based on the fact that most dungeon or monster spawns are the same every time. This does not make PvE less dynamic. Many instances, dungeons, and other PvE lands offer contect which players enjoy. Otherwise wouldn't PvP focused games be more popular?
Also, there is no way to make a balanced PvP persistant world that really works. Players in a persistant world desire content which allows them to progress. This means that a veteran player will always be more equipped and skilled than new players. This persistant world also usually allows new players to be present in the same areas as veterans. The world you are seeking only exists in FPS games. Why? Because vets can still be killed by a wild rocket launcher carried by a novice.
Don't get me wrong, I would like to see someone make a fair PvP MMO, but it will never happen. As long as a minority of players have enough free time to exploit the world around them there will always be those who remain untouchable and flaunt that power.
I won't go into the fact that you believe PvE players are after a grind. That's a whole different argument.
so wait a second- you mean you're down for a world where all the mobs dont respawn? A world where you cant gain levels?
Every PvE driven game has progression whether you're gonna complete the story or something. PvP based games- many dont or its linear progression. Guild Wars is linear progression if I create a pvp toon for instance.
Lineage 2 is here and is one of the top MMOs. Hardcore pvp proven period. makes NCSoft the most money by far
All PvP games are pretty fair. It's not hard. BF2142 is fair no one cries about camping? Starport is fair. There is no camping.
I have yet to see a non-static instance / dungeon. Even City of heroes you notice patterns sooner or later. PvE is static. Let the world get set ablaze your PvE'ers/farmers will quit. The pvpers will rejoice we live for that stuff. crushing our competition, dominating, survival of the fittest. We will take over the entire universe and shape it to our will.
Its not a hard thing to understand alas I knew you could not see reason. but I post for the benefit of the Casual pvpers. I'm sure they're like "omg I knew something was fishy in WoW!"
edit- ah I get you now. You think instances are unique and non-static because what its your first time through it? That's scripts my friend. Next person that walks into the instance will see the same drama unfold. Its fake. Thats static. PvE'ers like controlled enviroments like that where they can farm it over and over. If you play a game with true dynamic instances I want to see it. Not scripted sequences / action that 1,000,000 other farmers will repeat too. PvP provides dynamic content. PvE does not in its current form
so wait a second- you mean you're down for a world where all the mobs dont respawn? A world where you cant gain levels?
Every PvE driven game has progression whether you're gonna complete the story or something. PvP based games- many dont or its linear progression. Guild Wars is linear progression if I create a pvp toon for instance.
Lineage 2 is here and is one of the top MMOs. Hardcore pvp proven period. makes NCSoft the most money by far
All PvP games are pretty fair. It's not hard. BF2142 is fair no one cries about camping? Starport is fair. There is no camping.
I have yet to see a non-static instance / dungeon. Even City of heroes you notice patterns sooner or later. PvE is static. Let the world get set ablaze your PvE'ers/farmers will quit. The pvpers will rejoice we live for that stuff. crushing our competition, dominating, survival of the fittest. We will take over the entire universe and shape it to our will.
Its not a hard thing to understand alas I knew you could not see reason. but I post for the benefit of the Casual pvpers. I'm sure they're like "omg I knew something was fishy in WoW!"
edit- ah I get you now. You think instances are unique and non-static because what its your first time through it? That's scripts my friend. Next person that walks into the instance will see the same drama unfold. Its fake. Thats static. PvE'ers like controlled enviroments like that where they can farm it over and over. If you play a game with true dynamic instances I want to see it. Not scripted sequences / action that 1,000,000 other farmers will repeat too. PvP provides dynamic content. PvE does not in its current form
Dynamic is very relative. Instances and open world PvE is dynamic for many players. Just because I walk a similar path to other players don't mean I am not having fun. To say PvP is any more dynamic is silly. Just because your target has a mind of their own doesn't mean PvP can't dry up after a number of encounters. Repetition is something that all MMOs deal with on every avenue. You can't make a persistant world that constantly changes because those are two very different kinds of games.
City of Heroes is a poor example of a PvE game that has PvP content tacked on. WoW is the same way. I'm not trying to discredit a good PvP MMO. No good PvP MMOs really exist now. Every one of them has fallen to one death or another. The systems are abused or altered. The game you play seems VERY niche and your opinions often seem to come from very little MMO experience.
Also you must understand that "farming" is not something most PvE players crave. The exploration and conquering of dungeons and content is usually what they are after. Sadly the risk vs. reward in this situation is often turned into a grind of some sort. The farming that goes along with it is what some developers think is a good way to stop players from unlocking and destroying content too quickly.
BUT. That's not what this is about. Right now a lot of MMORPGs are suffering from bad execution. Even WoW (the most successful so far) suffers from this grindfest mentality. Even though I'm played my fair share of it I still see a glaring error in how these games are being created.
What this was originally about before it turned into a semi-flame war was about what happens to PVP-centric MMORPGs. I wasn't trying to support or discredit any form of gameplay, and I wasn't trying to support (until later) my playstyle. What I asked for was what people wanted, not what people have now.
In my humble and rarely asked for opinion, I think MMORPGs right now suck. Every one I play feels like a job rather than a hobby. The primary concern of developers is to slow people down and make them grind the same content numerous time with little advancement. PvP is never balanced in these games, and most devs think the solution is to tell people to fight in groups.
I could go on, but I'll stop there. Basically I see where you are coming from, but your opinion is just as biased as mine in the opposite direction. I have seen many good PvE players who aren't farmers, and you've seen plenty of PvPers who aren't griefers.
We just have to agree to disagree.
Hopefully someone creates a game that caters to our personal tastes while not discouraging the tastes of others.
I think that DAoC got it right with pvp. Offer multiple types of servers then offer inter-realm optional pvp. I think WoW took a page from that book as well. I too played UO and often times I loved the pvp but when I didnt feel up to it (felt chatty or wanted to farm) and it happened, it was a bummer.
Well to the OP , i think that a world like Daoc , Realm vs Realm can still give the best of the 2 world to anyone who like pve and pvp.
The pvper could change the pve world by wining Relic and taking many castle. So the pvp fan was happy to have the control of something. The pve fan had a very nice dungeon everytime the most powerfull Realm had relic. We still had many other dungeon without pvp. Someone could pvp and leveling in the same time from 5 to 50 by only doing pvp and someone could lvl from 1 to 50 without pvp one time.
I hope futur game will do something like that !!!
WoW almost had it but had a boring pvp BG ( fun for 1 month ) and arena is just about geting 2 class ( 2v2 ) or ...
The pve raid was almost a fun experience at first , but after doing the same thing countless of time ............
I hope Castle victory , PvP siege weapon , a changing world that player can change by their action. Something that make you hate the other side and wish to be them , challenging Pve batle solo , group and raid., a world that you can create your house, a game with many place to explore ( underground , sky , ground ) with many update. Uptodate graphic ..../......
Well thats problably a dream if any game come out soon like!
We all have our opinion of a great game and i wish everyone find one they like !!!
lol I dont play many MMOs its always funny when people run out of valid counters and start dropping the personal insults based on little fact. I can show you many pvp films I've made PM me offline ill send you the links.
I never said CoX or WoW has good meaningful pvp those are games for farmers period
we've disapproved your ridiculous posts about how there's no hardcore MMOs out there. L2 makes sick money. International title that blows away many other international titles
You've tried to make it sound like UO was a failure which is a baseless comment seeing as how Austin Devs make our MMOs. EA, Bioware, sony, the list just goes on and on. hard to work in game industry and not run into an Austin Dev. dont forget UO was well over 150k theres many PvE MMOs hovering around 150k you have no arguments based on anything factual.
I expect nothing less from such a topic as this though. I want to see facts and numbers backing up these outrageous stupid claims. only noobs that cant read quarterly reports will believe this stuff
All PvPers camp noobs? Yeah right not all pvp games like that. stop trying to focus on old pvp games and the current broken pve games
I think there is a market for free for all PvP MMOs, it just isn't a very large market. The problem is that no developer has actually made one that doesn't completely suck since early UO. Any company who sets out to make one also needs to realize they aren't going to get massive subscription number and budget the game's development accordingly. I also don't think a free for all PvP MMO can succeed with the level based model that almost every MMO currently uses. The power difference between a level 1 character and a level 50 character in WoW is much greater than the difference between a freshly made character and a 7x GM character in UO.
A system where your character gains in an ability by using it, as opposed to gaining xp by killing random critters to level up, keeps characters from not being able to advance in a system where they are able to be killed outside of safe city areas. This allows new player to be able to eventually be strong enough to compete against established characters. That can't happen in a system where you need to kill 1,000 pigs to get the xp to level up and also allows established characters to kill you while you are trying to do so.
That is what the magic of UO's skill system was and is for a PvP centric game. You could eventually become a full templated character by fighting other people.
Honestly, I don't have much interest in a PvP centric game, since I rarely engage in PvP, but I do see there is a market for it, and think one could attract enough people to be profitable.
Originally posted by Ohaan You completely missed the point. Study harder.
I didn't miss the point at all; you guys fail over and over again at explaining what an open, full-loot PVP game 'done right' would look like, and resort to complete cop-outs like what I replied to, or attempts to appear clever like what you posted.
[*]Players will, given the choice, take the easy path.
Now you're just responding to a proposed fact with a rant. You have conveniently left out VPellen's third point, PvP and PvE do not mix. So according to his position your example scenario would not exist.
No, I was agreeing that what he posted was a fact and pointing out that it applies as much, if not more, to the PVP crowd as it does to the PVE crowd. Babbling about "PVE and PVP don't mix" is a cop-out; how exactly is equipment generated if not by players engaging in PVE pursuits? Or does all the stuff about 'consequences' for losing, or about player crafting being important, or anything along those lines get conveniently ignored in your response?
The whole point of 'hardcore' PVP is that death has a consequence, and that consequence is normally the player being forced into PVE grinding. If you want to try to claim there will be no PVE in The Game, be sure to explain what the 'consequences' of losing are if they're not PVE grinding.
Again with the PvE vs PvP. The myriad of PvE MMO's has conditioned people to believe that there are no items without grinding. That does not have to be the case for a non-PvE PvP focussed MMO. Gear can be made less uber and more obtainable. It is not the size of your sword it is how you use it.
This is typical of the problem with attempting to communicate with the 'hardcore' PVP crowd. You make a bald assertion that there would need to be no grinding for items, but fail to explain how this would actually be accomplished in the game. Every time someone dies they need a new set of gear in typical 'hardcore' PVP rules, so players either grind out replacement gear or get it without having to do anything by the normal meaning of the terms. If you have some third option, EXPLAIN WHAT THAT OPTION IS. 'More obtainable' just means less grinding, 'less uber' is completely irrelevant.
I don't really expect a real answer, the typical 'hardcore' PVPer will just string together nonsensical insults like 'stay in school', and the moderately more advanced will just cop-out by using a phrase like 'player crafting' with no explanation of what it really means or how it solves the issue.
omg PVPers dont need gear too have fun. We dont need vertical progression darn farmers think everything revolves around loot lol.
Its all about doing what I want. I can earn loot, xp, money everything i need via pvp. I can cap some guy that has a fortune on him and get what i want.
Where is the grind in that? I know plenty successful pvpers that earn all their stuff that way in risk vs reward games
Originally posted by vajuras omg PVPers dont need gear too have fun. We dont need vertical progression darn farmers think everything revolves around loot lol.
Please explain how you manage to "dont need gear too have fun." and "dont need vertical progression", yet you then go on to say that what you want is to "earn loot, xp, money everything i need via pvp." It sounds like you're saying that you do actually need gear and progression.
Its all about doing what I want. I can earn loot, xp, money everything i need via pvp. I can cap some guy that has a fortune on him and get what i want.
Where, exactly, did the fortune come from? Did he just get it by logging in, or did he grind it out in some PVE fashion? Same with items, did they just pop into his inventory or did he have to craft them?
Level based open PVP doesnt work since some people will never catch up. Its gotta be skilled based ala Ultima Online.
And about UO PvPers not liking the game because of stat loss, thats not true at all. Well maybe for some of them, but I know that we all quit because of trammel, not because of stat loss. Another fun fact to remember is there were always more blues than reds in that game. Ex: After killing one person at the Yew liches so me and my roomate could kill them faster we would be overwhelmed by a force of blues. Raid someone house we dont like and guess what? a gate got opened at WBB and someone said there were 5 reds outside of his home; needless to say I dont think I've ever died so fast, and they kept coming even after we were dead lol. Blues could kill reds without punishment (they way it should be). I could go on but im sure most of you were the ones that wanted Trammel, or never played an open pvp game and are simply afraid of the unknown.
On a similar note... why the heck did they stop making darkfall?! I wouldnt even care if I had one server with 1000 people playing at peak times. That game was going to bring all of this. I dont care if we are the minority , the niche. Make me a game damnit....
omg PVPers dont need gear too have fun. We dont need vertical progression darn farmers think everything revolves around loot lol.
Please explain how you manage to "dont need gear too have fun." and "dont need vertical progression", yet you then go on to say that what you want is to "earn loot, xp, money everything i need via pvp." It sounds like you're saying that you do actually need gear and progression.
Its all about doing what I want. I can earn loot, xp, money everything i need via pvp. I can cap some guy that has a fortune on him and get what i want.
Where, exactly, did the fortune come from? Did he just get it by logging in, or did he grind it out in some PVE fashion? Same with items, did they just pop into his inventory or did he have to craft them?
lost my internet connection before i could elaborate
ev1 starts out with money. Everything u need is paid for with money
Some people gain money the hoenst way. like me, I love to just build my colonies. I put them down and nuture my colonists best I can. setup defenses to protect my investment- my farmers so to speak
sharks can come takeover my colony and steal my money. see, the money the colonists generate is stored in the colony. i ahve to come harvest it like a bee, then warp to the banks and store it. the banks you create on the planets not safe
we dont need gear. whole community starts out together as nooblets. ev1 starts out with some money. the sharks might start pwning the soloers upfront. take their moeny. get enough together drop down a colony or-
just go invade ppl colonies. good money that way too
I personally enjoy traveling to different planets and gathering colonists. I never farm NPCs. I trade at various stations while i explore and unlock universes. when i discover a fertile planet i laydown a colony and try to get my buds to logon and help me expand it with colonists.
but they are always sharks that will just team, reduce their risks, and just take what they want. I can see their stats and I see they dont give a crap about colonists lol
I never grind unless i just for some reason just wanna shot some mobs.
I got best ship for pvp like day 1 or day 2. I can trade in my ship for anything i want last time i checked the market.
What grind!?!? I got what i want upfront and now im making deals in order to protect my stake. Its not about me, im nothing solo. Its all politics and negotations. just making sure the other sharks will let you get your colonies up the speed if they inform you they moving in to the same galaxy u trying to takeover
<edit> btw, I only play on rebangs which is great for hardcore pvp. this game has permaverses (no rebang/reset) that seem really popular but i know nothing of those. there is some that appear to be non-PK too but they seem the minority lol
I think there is a market for free for all PvP MMOs, it just isn't a very large market. The problem is that no developer has actually made one that doesn't completely suck since early UO. Any company who sets out to make one also needs to realize they aren't going to get massive subscription number and budget the game's development accordingly. I also don't think a free for all PvP MMO can succeed with the level based model that almost every MMO currently uses. The power difference between a level 1 character and a level 50 character in WoW is much greater than the difference between a freshly made character and a 7x GM character in UO.
Yeah, this is a serious problem from a business point of view. There are many niche markets that an MMO can target; the catch is getting capital to develop niche games. The money guys are all totally mesmerized by Blizzard's massive numbers with WoW. Just making a small profit or breaking even does not cut it with corporate America; these guys shut down profitable subsidiaries because they aren't making money hand over fist.
This issue is not restricted to just FFA PvP games, but to those who seek anything not "mainstream" enough for many companies. Thus the perpetual fantasy dominance of MMOs, to the point where Star Wars Galaxies felt they had to have traditional melee type skillsets present along with blasters (filling in for archery and casting)...which from a "starwarsy" perspective didn't make much sense.
I also agree that level systems stereotype PvP play. WoW made a good stab at this issue with level restricted battlefields, but then the problem becomes the twink issue, which still colors PvP play, even if you're a level 19 in Warsong Gulch. Level systems are easy to code and balance, compared to skill based systems.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Comments
It is a question of fangs.
Just for some clarification, Trammel preceded Siege Perilous in UO. They made Siege Perilous because the pvpers were complaining about Trammel.
And while Lineage does quite well in Asia, it has a very small following in US/Europe. Lineage is the ultimate grind and farmer fest which the Asians love and most of us so dispise.
Got some news for you, In case you missed it.... soloing is the way most players prefer to play. Being forced to group for either PVE or PvP activities is an anathema for me, so I won't play games that revolve around it.
I PVP for completely different reasons than you probably do. I tend to live by a code of honor, and won't attack other players unless provoked or they are part of a previously acknowledged enemy guild. Others chose to live by a different rule set of course, but I'm free not to play in the same game as them.
I like PVP, when its fair and balanced (for the most part).... which is why I loved DAOC and am looking forward to WAR Online.
BTW...calling EVE a PVE game destroys your credibility a bit... while it is true there are folks who spend all of their time in the "safe" zones, most people find out sooner or later that no zone is completely safe. Ask someone whose lost 600 million ISK in their industrial because they got suicide bombed in a "safe" zone....
One things for sure.... almost everyone will die to the hands of another in EVE.
EVE really has got a lot of things right.... hard core full loot PVP for those who desire it...(and many do) interfacing with PVE only folks who actually supply the bulk of the materials needed for the PVP'ers to go to war against each other.
thats nice you enjoy solo PvP. but thats FPS Deathmatch mentality. In a game that has risk vs reward soloers will lose everything they own. In reality, its about TEAM not about you. Just like in RL where you see massive armies waging wars.
If I wanted to solo pvp I'd play a freaking shooter. I'm not paying $15 a month to just play by myself. Solo pvp has no place in an MMO whereas we all gain strength from each other portraying different roles and duties.
I dont understand why do we need pve'ers on a hardcore open pvp server? Why? Put them on their own server. Let them farm all day long in 100% safety on their own server. I dont want them on my servers period. We cannot cater to the "me me" farmer mentality. They cannot coexist on the same servers.
PvE = Static content
PvP with Looting and loss = Dynamic Content
PvPers will fight and fight til nothing is left. Everything will be rubble. This cannot work for pve'ers. They cannot coexist on our servers. They can't. Give them their own PvE games. LOTRO is good for them, 100% PvE.
I'm not here to persuade any PvE'er to join on my servers. I want them to have their own servers and farm in safety. I'm here to share ideas with fellow warriors and future devs. Farmers bloat economy and hoard all the uber, phat lootz. PvE'er = farmer
And when they come to pvp zones they will own us PvP'ers because they got all the phat lootz!
Screw that give them their own static servers and give me a server 100% player run. It will be all out war. Let the blood spill lol
PVE'er - needs constant level progression. PVPer- loves balanced playing field
look at FPS games they're all balanced playing fields and they're hella popular. I want that but the depth that only MMO can provide (persistant universe)
Of course it's restrictive. Your inability to pickpocket another player's belongings is also restrictive, as is your inability to logon to their account whenever you desire. Your subjective opinion about another paying customer's character is not relevant.
Of course it's unrealistic. So is one person being able to absorb damage equal to the totality of the first ten minutes of Omaha beach. It's a game, that people pay for. It's not your game, you don't own it, you're just another player.
If you get incensed about anything regarding an MMORPG, you need to remind yourself again that it's a game. It's not a "celebration" of anything, it's a game.
Unrestricted PvP will remain unpopular to the vast majority of those willing to pay for a game, precisely because of people with your mindset. We are not going to give control of our gaming experience, which we pay for, to a self-absorbed individual who thinks the game is a "celebration of the identity of homicidal mania" with the rest of us as targets.
We wish to play our game, PvP only when we desire, and under conditions that ensure a fairness in combat. We pay for entertainment, in a wide spectrum of gaming areas, of which PvP is only one possible avenue. Unrestricted PvP typically always degenerates into something less than entertainment, and more about juvenile efforts at self-actualization by a handful of disturbed children.
Agreed. The fantasic ideals put forth by the PvP-centric players here are much less grand in practice. The idea of a bloodthirsty world where anything can happen devolves into a corpse camping lolpwndu-fest. I wish people could understand that games that are considered very "niche" are just poorly executed games were kids get their jollies.Doktar - 70 Troll Priest - Perenolde
I dont understand why do we need pve'ers on a hardcore open pvp server? Why? Put them on their own server. Let them farm all day long in 100% safety on their own server. I dont want them on my servers period. We cannot cater to the "me me" farmer mentality. They cannot coexist on the same servers.
PvE = Static content
PvP with Looting and loss = Dynamic Content
PvPers will fight and fight til nothing is left. Everything will be rubble. This cannot work for pve'ers. They cannot coexist on our servers. They can't. Give them their own PvE games. LOTRO is good for them, 100% PvE.
I'm not here to persuade any PvE'er to join on my servers. I want them to have their own servers and farm in safety. I'm here to share ideas with fellow warriors and future devs. Farmers bloat economy and hoard all the uber, phat lootz. PvE'er = farmer
And when they come to pvp zones they will own us PvP'ers because they got all the phat lootz!
Screw that give them their own static servers and give me a server 100% player run. It will be all out war. Let the blood spill lol
PVE'er - needs constant level progression. PVPer- loves balanced playing field
look at FPS games they're all balanced playing fields and they're hella popular. I want that but the depth that only MMO can provide (persistant universe)
This is a completely biased opinion. You are trying to imply that all PvP players are searching for a mirror match. This is not true in the slightest. I've never been in a game which had PvP and players that ran around in groups or solo looking for other groups or solo players of equal calibre.Another assumption you've made is that PvE play is "static". I'm imagining that this is based on the fact that most dungeon or monster spawns are the same every time. This does not make PvE less dynamic. Many instances, dungeons, and other PvE lands offer contect which players enjoy. Otherwise wouldn't PvP focused games be more popular?
Also, there is no way to make a balanced PvP persistant world that really works. Players in a persistant world desire content which allows them to progress. This means that a veteran player will always be more equipped and skilled than new players. This persistant world also usually allows new players to be present in the same areas as veterans. The world you are seeking only exists in FPS games. Why? Because vets can still be killed by a wild rocket launcher carried by a novice.
Don't get me wrong, I would like to see someone make a fair PvP MMO, but it will never happen. As long as a minority of players have enough free time to exploit the world around them there will always be those who remain untouchable and flaunt that power.
I won't go into the fact that you believe PvE players are after a grind. That's a whole different argument.
Doktar - 70 Troll Priest - Perenolde
But you know what's much worse? Getting ganked every time you leave town or turn your back on another player. That's what happens in an unrestricted PK game and it's much worse than the occaisional jerk.
2. If you want realisim let's have PKs that get caught put in prison and be unable to play that character until their sentence is finished. Since most committed PKs have the body count of a serial killer, that would pretty much mean a PK character would be on suspension for life. Oh, and you only get one character per account.
You wouldn't like that though.
My youtube MMO gaming channel
Why do I like RPGs and Pen and Paper RPGs?:
- Treasure - Getting new gear is always fun in a game. Especially when you notice a difference when fighting, or can advance to new areas because of the equipment (see: Hookshot in Zelda)
- Lore/Quests/Story line - I enjoy playing RPGs because alongside the usual hack and slash is a story to become involved in. Just like literature these stories put emotion and feeling into the actions of a character. While playing you experience this. It gives the entertainment value to a game. Even FPSers like Half-Life have a storyline to follow
- Bosses/Mobs - They add a dynamic to the game. They give the risk so that the reward is sweet. They are also usually creatures which you feel no remorse for, or learn to have (see: Bixies, Gnolls, Goblins, etc). In RPGs they become the meat of the content in a game
Now, when I started playing an MMORPG I realized that I was no longer the "hero", and that many players were working in conjunction to real this "boss" and complete the "story". I liked this because it meant a lot of people to explore, fight, talk to, laugh with, etc. Every part of the three things I mentioned earlier became that much cooler. Instead of making the princess happy I was enjoying the content of the game with real people. Very cool.Now, I understand PvP and full loot. It adds a bit of realism and danger to an MMO. The problem is that players abuse the system in order to grief other players. This ultimately ends up screwing up the vision the new player had for the game.
Let me put it this way. The hardcore PvPer is Ganon (the end guy from Zelda) and the new player in Young Link. The designers of the game purposefully made Ganon hard because he is the final encounter.
The developers never allowed Ganon to pop out in the forest and smote young link in one hit.
Even though Ganon existed at that point the developers allowed him to be a goal rather than a game deturant. If you, as the hardcore PvPer, act as a player killing force of unfair advantage you add something to the game which turns people away.
Regardless of the "good" PvPer who only wants equal contests the system will never thrive as long as Johnny Pwnsauce is standing right at the edge of the city waiting to axe anyone who looks like they have 9 hit points.
The person who ruins the game isn't the player who complains about being ganked, but the ganker who continually kills players with no other benefit than his own twisted pleasure.
Doktar - 70 Troll Priest - Perenolde
But you know what's much worse? Getting ganked every time you leave town or turn your back on another player. That's what happens in an unrestricted PK game and it's much worse than the occaisional jerk.
2. If you want realisim let's have PKs that get caught put in prison and be unable to play that character until their sentence is finished. Since most committed PKs have the body count of a serial killer, that would pretty much mean a PK character would be on suspension for life. Oh, and you only get one character per account.
You wouldn't like that though.
A similar system was placed within the Ultima Online world. Instead of being jailed players who were murderers would be penalized when they were killed. A "Red" player (killer) would have to remain a ghost until their murder counts decayed (which took a lot of time logged in). This was similar to being in jail because players could not do anything while working off counts. Player killers hate this and it is one reason more PvP players in UO think the game sucks now.
So there you have it.
Doktar - 70 Troll Priest - Perenolde
Of course it's restrictive. Your inability to pickpocket another player's belongings is also restrictive, as is your inability to logon to their account whenever you desire. Your subjective opinion about another paying customer's character is not relevant.
Of course it's unrealistic. So is one person being able to absorb damage equal to the totality of the first ten minutes of Omaha beach. It's a game, that people pay for. It's not your game, you don't own it, you're just another player.
If you get incensed about anything regarding an MMORPG, you need to remind yourself again that it's a game. It's not a "celebration" of anything, it's a game.
Unrestricted PvP will remain unpopular to the vast majority of those willing to pay for a game, precisely because of people with your mindset. We are not going to give control of our gaming experience, which we pay for, to a self-absorbed individual who thinks the game is a "celebration of the identity of homicidal mania" with the rest of us as targets.
We wish to play our game, PvP only when we desire, and under conditions that ensure a fairness in combat. We pay for entertainment, in a wide spectrum of gaming areas, of which PvP is only one possible avenue. Unrestricted PvP typically always degenerates into something less than entertainment, and more about juvenile efforts at self-actualization by a handful of disturbed children.
Agreed. The fantasic ideals put forth by the PvP-centric players here are much less grand in practice. The idea of a bloodthirsty world where anything can happen devolves into a corpse camping lolpwndu-fest. I wish people could understand that games that are considered very "niche" are just poorly executed games were kids get their jollies.omg you need to play more games there's no camping in Starport what broken PVE game do you speak of? Real pvp games dont allow that.
But you know what's much worse? Getting ganked every time you leave town or turn your back on another player. That's what happens in an unrestricted PK game and it's much worse than the occaisional jerk.
2. If you want realisim let's have PKs that get caught put in prison and be unable to play that character until their sentence is finished. Since most committed PKs have the body count of a serial killer, that would pretty much mean a PK character would be on suspension for life. Oh, and you only get one character per account.
You wouldn't like that though.
A similar system was placed within the Ultima Online world. Instead of being jailed players who were murderers would be penalized when they were killed. A "Red" player (killer) would have to remain a ghost until their murder counts decayed (which took a lot of time logged in). This was similar to being in jail because players could not do anything while working off counts. Player killers hate this and it is one reason more PvP players in UO think the game sucks now.
So there you have it.
Yeah there is no reason to punish players for PKing really. you only need hardcore punishments only if you trying to keep the farmers happy. I have realized it much better to give them their own server
Farmers want control. They want to win. They wanna sit back and take it easy. They want to win. PK'ers are a random element they cannot control
What are all the farmers posting about right now? They're complaining bout some bulley in a broken pvp game took their lunch money. They want revenge. But instead of teaming and reducing their risk and reclaiming their stuff they want a bounty system?
I like the depth a bounty system proposes but I dont think we need to punish players on a hardcore pvp server. thats what I didnt like bout Rappelz. discouraged good, pvp and removed my control over the world.
good post about your history I respect the old timers / true old school RPG'ers that started it all. I do.
Okay now please listen/read- I will elaborate for you one last time. I will not be rude. I will elaborate on this for you guys that like to farm PVE content.
Players that dont wanna get destroyed should simply roll on the PvE / consentual PvP servers or play LOTRO. Seriously its a good game for PVE'ers.
If they roll on the hardcore pvp one- its okay for them to transfer to PvE. But they cant bring their toon back. It will be permenant and u will have to reroll to come back. Because Farmers ruin pvp period. We dont want you going to PvE server, earning everything through PvE, then coming back and owning us. Because you will if the MMO in question is somewhat loot driven
On the hardcore pvp servers you can't let camping exist. You just cant it ruins pvp. It sucks. I'm -not- a proponent of camping period.
you speak of a non-issue in a well designed game. Maybe that exists in WoW which sucks for pvp anyway (its just an MMO for farmers period). it is enough you just lost everything you had on you. Its okay for devs to respawn you in some slight safe zone to buy a new ship if you have the money. In this safe place like a space station you can buy your ship. then warp to whatever place you wanna go after that. If someone camping the gates, you should be able to turn around.
But you will accept the risks. We cannot punish your attacked. You must learn to team and fight back or get ran off the server.
We cant allow people to be exploited. Even FPS games dont allow that- not the good ones. You have spawn points.
But we will allow an army to gank the soloer. Yep. We do not encourage "me me" mentality. We encourage teaming. FPS deathmatchers will get chased off the server first or right behind the Farmers. You cant make money on this type of server. What moron will buy an account from you knowing they gonna lose it all? very few to zero. you're toon is disposable. expendable. Its not about you- its about the community
I encourage safe zones for pvpers to buy new ships like in Starport. I do, I'm not that bad. If you have the cash u should be able to bounce back man. If not, well see ya next rebang lol. well you do have option to get the newb boats again if you lost it all somehow. But sdmart players will reduce their risk no matter what and store their money in banks.
we just cant have people farming in safe zones though. I'm fine with people farming in safety in a casual pvp MMO cause that just to introduce pve'ers to PvP or a place for people to just farm and bloat the economy. The casual pvpers will realize the farmers are owning them and will want full looting or they will just farm. meaning they're a farmer anyway.
I dont understand why do we need pve'ers on a hardcore open pvp server? Why? Put them on their own server. Let them farm all day long in 100% safety on their own server. I dont want them on my servers period. We cannot cater to the "me me" farmer mentality. They cannot coexist on the same servers.
PvE = Static content
PvP with Looting and loss = Dynamic Content
PvPers will fight and fight til nothing is left. Everything will be rubble. This cannot work for pve'ers. They cannot coexist on our servers. They can't. Give them their own PvE games. LOTRO is good for them, 100% PvE.
I'm not here to persuade any PvE'er to join on my servers. I want them to have their own servers and farm in safety. I'm here to share ideas with fellow warriors and future devs. Farmers bloat economy and hoard all the uber, phat lootz. PvE'er = farmer
And when they come to pvp zones they will own us PvP'ers because they got all the phat lootz!
Screw that give them their own static servers and give me a server 100% player run. It will be all out war. Let the blood spill lol
PVE'er - needs constant level progression. PVPer- loves balanced playing field
look at FPS games they're all balanced playing fields and they're hella popular. I want that but the depth that only MMO can provide (persistant universe)
This is a completely biased opinion. You are trying to imply that all PvP players are searching for a mirror match. This is not true in the slightest. I've never been in a game which had PvP and players that ran around in groups or solo looking for other groups or solo players of equal calibre.Another assumption you've made is that PvE play is "static". I'm imagining that this is based on the fact that most dungeon or monster spawns are the same every time. This does not make PvE less dynamic. Many instances, dungeons, and other PvE lands offer contect which players enjoy. Otherwise wouldn't PvP focused games be more popular?
Also, there is no way to make a balanced PvP persistant world that really works. Players in a persistant world desire content which allows them to progress. This means that a veteran player will always be more equipped and skilled than new players. This persistant world also usually allows new players to be present in the same areas as veterans. The world you are seeking only exists in FPS games. Why? Because vets can still be killed by a wild rocket launcher carried by a novice.
Don't get me wrong, I would like to see someone make a fair PvP MMO, but it will never happen. As long as a minority of players have enough free time to exploit the world around them there will always be those who remain untouchable and flaunt that power.
I won't go into the fact that you believe PvE players are after a grind. That's a whole different argument.
so wait a second- you mean you're down for a world where all the mobs dont respawn? A world where you cant gain levels?
Every PvE driven game has progression whether you're gonna complete the story or something. PvP based games- many dont or its linear progression. Guild Wars is linear progression if I create a pvp toon for instance.
Lineage 2 is here and is one of the top MMOs. Hardcore pvp proven period. makes NCSoft the most money by far
All PvP games are pretty fair. It's not hard. BF2142 is fair no one cries about camping? Starport is fair. There is no camping.
I have yet to see a non-static instance / dungeon. Even City of heroes you notice patterns sooner or later. PvE is static. Let the world get set ablaze your PvE'ers/farmers will quit. The pvpers will rejoice we live for that stuff. crushing our competition, dominating, survival of the fittest. We will take over the entire universe and shape it to our will.
Its not a hard thing to understand alas I knew you could not see reason. but I post for the benefit of the Casual pvpers. I'm sure they're like "omg I knew something was fishy in WoW!"
edit- ah I get you now. You think instances are unique and non-static because what its your first time through it? That's scripts my friend. Next person that walks into the instance will see the same drama unfold. Its fake. Thats static. PvE'ers like controlled enviroments like that where they can farm it over and over. If you play a game with true dynamic instances I want to see it. Not scripted sequences / action that 1,000,000 other farmers will repeat too. PvP provides dynamic content. PvE does not in its current form
so wait a second- you mean you're down for a world where all the mobs dont respawn? A world where you cant gain levels?
Every PvE driven game has progression whether you're gonna complete the story or something. PvP based games- many dont or its linear progression. Guild Wars is linear progression if I create a pvp toon for instance.
Lineage 2 is here and is one of the top MMOs. Hardcore pvp proven period. makes NCSoft the most money by far
All PvP games are pretty fair. It's not hard. BF2142 is fair no one cries about camping? Starport is fair. There is no camping.
I have yet to see a non-static instance / dungeon. Even City of heroes you notice patterns sooner or later. PvE is static. Let the world get set ablaze your PvE'ers/farmers will quit. The pvpers will rejoice we live for that stuff. crushing our competition, dominating, survival of the fittest. We will take over the entire universe and shape it to our will.
Its not a hard thing to understand alas I knew you could not see reason. but I post for the benefit of the Casual pvpers. I'm sure they're like "omg I knew something was fishy in WoW!"
edit- ah I get you now. You think instances are unique and non-static because what its your first time through it? That's scripts my friend. Next person that walks into the instance will see the same drama unfold. Its fake. Thats static. PvE'ers like controlled enviroments like that where they can farm it over and over. If you play a game with true dynamic instances I want to see it. Not scripted sequences / action that 1,000,000 other farmers will repeat too. PvP provides dynamic content. PvE does not in its current form
Dynamic is very relative. Instances and open world PvE is dynamic for many players. Just because I walk a similar path to other players don't mean I am not having fun. To say PvP is any more dynamic is silly. Just because your target has a mind of their own doesn't mean PvP can't dry up after a number of encounters. Repetition is something that all MMOs deal with on every avenue. You can't make a persistant world that constantly changes because those are two very different kinds of games.
City of Heroes is a poor example of a PvE game that has PvP content tacked on. WoW is the same way. I'm not trying to discredit a good PvP MMO. No good PvP MMOs really exist now. Every one of them has fallen to one death or another. The systems are abused or altered. The game you play seems VERY niche and your opinions often seem to come from very little MMO experience.
Also you must understand that "farming" is not something most PvE players crave. The exploration and conquering of dungeons and content is usually what they are after. Sadly the risk vs. reward in this situation is often turned into a grind of some sort. The farming that goes along with it is what some developers think is a good way to stop players from unlocking and destroying content too quickly.
BUT. That's not what this is about. Right now a lot of MMORPGs are suffering from bad execution. Even WoW (the most successful so far) suffers from this grindfest mentality. Even though I'm played my fair share of it I still see a glaring error in how these games are being created.
What this was originally about before it turned into a semi-flame war was about what happens to PVP-centric MMORPGs. I wasn't trying to support or discredit any form of gameplay, and I wasn't trying to support (until later) my playstyle. What I asked for was what people wanted, not what people have now.
In my humble and rarely asked for opinion, I think MMORPGs right now suck. Every one I play feels like a job rather than a hobby. The primary concern of developers is to slow people down and make them grind the same content numerous time with little advancement. PvP is never balanced in these games, and most devs think the solution is to tell people to fight in groups.
I could go on, but I'll stop there. Basically I see where you are coming from, but your opinion is just as biased as mine in the opposite direction. I have seen many good PvE players who aren't farmers, and you've seen plenty of PvPers who aren't griefers.
We just have to agree to disagree.
Hopefully someone creates a game that caters to our personal tastes while not discouraging the tastes of others.
Doktar - 70 Troll Priest - Perenolde
my 2cp
The pvper could change the pve world by wining Relic and taking many castle. So the pvp fan was happy to have the control of something. The pve fan had a very nice dungeon everytime the most powerfull Realm had relic. We still had many other dungeon without pvp. Someone could pvp and leveling in the same time from 5 to 50 by only doing pvp and someone could lvl from 1 to 50 without pvp one time.
I hope futur game will do something like that !!!
WoW almost had it but had a boring pvp BG ( fun for 1 month ) and arena is just about geting 2 class ( 2v2 ) or ...
The pve raid was almost a fun experience at first , but after doing the same thing countless of time ............
I hope Castle victory , PvP siege weapon , a changing world that player can change by their action. Something that make you hate the other side and wish to be them , challenging Pve batle solo , group and raid., a world that you can create your house, a game with many place to explore ( underground , sky , ground ) with many update. Uptodate graphic ..../......
Well thats problably a dream if any game come out soon like!
We all have our opinion of a great game and i wish everyone find one they like !!!
lol I dont play many MMOs its always funny when people run out of valid counters and start dropping the personal insults based on little fact. I can show you many pvp films I've made PM me offline ill send you the links.
I never said CoX or WoW has good meaningful pvp those are games for farmers period
we've disapproved your ridiculous posts about how there's no hardcore MMOs out there. L2 makes sick money. International title that blows away many other international titles
You've tried to make it sound like UO was a failure which is a baseless comment seeing as how Austin Devs make our MMOs. EA, Bioware, sony, the list just goes on and on. hard to work in game industry and not run into an Austin Dev. dont forget UO was well over 150k theres many PvE MMOs hovering around 150k you have no arguments based on anything factual.
I expect nothing less from such a topic as this though. I want to see facts and numbers backing up these outrageous stupid claims. only noobs that cant read quarterly reports will believe this stuff
All PvPers camp noobs? Yeah right not all pvp games like that. stop trying to focus on old pvp games and the current broken pve games
I think there is a market for free for all PvP MMOs, it just isn't a very large market. The problem is that no developer has actually made one that doesn't completely suck since early UO. Any company who sets out to make one also needs to realize they aren't going to get massive subscription number and budget the game's development accordingly. I also don't think a free for all PvP MMO can succeed with the level based model that almost every MMO currently uses. The power difference between a level 1 character and a level 50 character in WoW is much greater than the difference between a freshly made character and a 7x GM character in UO.
A system where your character gains in an ability by using it, as opposed to gaining xp by killing random critters to level up, keeps characters from not being able to advance in a system where they are able to be killed outside of safe city areas. This allows new player to be able to eventually be strong enough to compete against established characters. That can't happen in a system where you need to kill 1,000 pigs to get the xp to level up and also allows established characters to kill you while you are trying to do so.
That is what the magic of UO's skill system was and is for a PvP centric game. You could eventually become a full templated character by fighting other people.
Honestly, I don't have much interest in a PvP centric game, since I rarely engage in PvP, but I do see there is a market for it, and think one could attract enough people to be profitable.
I didn't miss the point at all; you guys fail over and over again at explaining what an open, full-loot PVP game 'done right' would look like, and resort to complete cop-outs like what I replied to, or attempts to appear clever like what you posted.
[*]Players will, given the choice, take the easy path.
No, I was agreeing that what he posted was a fact and pointing out that it applies as much, if not more, to the PVP crowd as it does to the PVE crowd. Babbling about "PVE and PVP don't mix" is a cop-out; how exactly is equipment generated if not by players engaging in PVE pursuits? Or does all the stuff about 'consequences' for losing, or about player crafting being important, or anything along those lines get conveniently ignored in your response?
The whole point of 'hardcore' PVP is that death has a consequence, and that consequence is normally the player being forced into PVE grinding. If you want to try to claim there will be no PVE in The Game, be sure to explain what the 'consequences' of losing are if they're not PVE grinding.
This is typical of the problem with attempting to communicate with the 'hardcore' PVP crowd. You make a bald assertion that there would need to be no grinding for items, but fail to explain how this would actually be accomplished in the game. Every time someone dies they need a new set of gear in typical 'hardcore' PVP rules, so players either grind out replacement gear or get it without having to do anything by the normal meaning of the terms. If you have some third option, EXPLAIN WHAT THAT OPTION IS. 'More obtainable' just means less grinding, 'less uber' is completely irrelevant.
I don't really expect a real answer, the typical 'hardcore' PVPer will just string together nonsensical insults like 'stay in school', and the moderately more advanced will just cop-out by using a phrase like 'player crafting' with no explanation of what it really means or how it solves the issue.
omg PVPers dont need gear too have fun. We dont need vertical progression darn farmers think everything revolves around loot lol.
Its all about doing what I want. I can earn loot, xp, money everything i need via pvp. I can cap some guy that has a fortune on him and get what i want.
Where is the grind in that? I know plenty successful pvpers that earn all their stuff that way in risk vs reward games
Please explain how you manage to "dont need gear too have fun." and "dont need vertical progression", yet you then go on to say that what you want is to "earn loot, xp, money everything i need via pvp." It sounds like you're saying that you do actually need gear and progression.
Where, exactly, did the fortune come from? Did he just get it by logging in, or did he grind it out in some PVE fashion? Same with items, did they just pop into his inventory or did he have to craft them?
Level based open PVP doesnt work since some people will never catch up. Its gotta be skilled based ala Ultima Online.
And about UO PvPers not liking the game because of stat loss, thats not true at all. Well maybe for some of them, but I know that we all quit because of trammel, not because of stat loss. Another fun fact to remember is there were always more blues than reds in that game. Ex: After killing one person at the Yew liches so me and my roomate could kill them faster we would be overwhelmed by a force of blues. Raid someone house we dont like and guess what? a gate got opened at WBB and someone said there were 5 reds outside of his home; needless to say I dont think I've ever died so fast, and they kept coming even after we were dead lol. Blues could kill reds without punishment (they way it should be). I could go on but im sure most of you were the ones that wanted Trammel, or never played an open pvp game and are simply afraid of the unknown.
On a similar note... why the heck did they stop making darkfall?! I wouldnt even care if I had one server with 1000 people playing at peak times. That game was going to bring all of this. I dont care if we are the minority , the niche. Make me a game damnit....
Please explain how you manage to "dont need gear too have fun." and "dont need vertical progression", yet you then go on to say that what you want is to "earn loot, xp, money everything i need via pvp." It sounds like you're saying that you do actually need gear and progression.
Where, exactly, did the fortune come from? Did he just get it by logging in, or did he grind it out in some PVE fashion? Same with items, did they just pop into his inventory or did he have to craft them?
lost my internet connection before i could elaborate
ev1 starts out with money. Everything u need is paid for with money
Some people gain money the hoenst way. like me, I love to just build my colonies. I put them down and nuture my colonists best I can. setup defenses to protect my investment- my farmers so to speak
sharks can come takeover my colony and steal my money. see, the money the colonists generate is stored in the colony. i ahve to come harvest it like a bee, then warp to the banks and store it. the banks you create on the planets not safe
we dont need gear. whole community starts out together as nooblets. ev1 starts out with some money. the sharks might start pwning the soloers upfront. take their moeny. get enough together drop down a colony or-
just go invade ppl colonies. good money that way too
I personally enjoy traveling to different planets and gathering colonists. I never farm NPCs. I trade at various stations while i explore and unlock universes. when i discover a fertile planet i laydown a colony and try to get my buds to logon and help me expand it with colonists.
but they are always sharks that will just team, reduce their risks, and just take what they want. I can see their stats and I see they dont give a crap about colonists lol
I never grind unless i just for some reason just wanna shot some mobs.
I got best ship for pvp like day 1 or day 2. I can trade in my ship for anything i want last time i checked the market.
What grind!?!? I got what i want upfront and now im making deals in order to protect my stake. Its not about me, im nothing solo. Its all politics and negotations. just making sure the other sharks will let you get your colonies up the speed if they inform you they moving in to the same galaxy u trying to takeover
<edit> btw, I only play on rebangs which is great for hardcore pvp. this game has permaverses (no rebang/reset) that seem really popular but i know nothing of those. there is some that appear to be non-PK too but they seem the minority lol
Yeah, this is a serious problem from a business point of view. There are many niche markets that an MMO can target; the catch is getting capital to develop niche games. The money guys are all totally mesmerized by Blizzard's massive numbers with WoW. Just making a small profit or breaking even does not cut it with corporate America; these guys shut down profitable subsidiaries because they aren't making money hand over fist.
This issue is not restricted to just FFA PvP games, but to those who seek anything not "mainstream" enough for many companies. Thus the perpetual fantasy dominance of MMOs, to the point where Star Wars Galaxies felt they had to have traditional melee type skillsets present along with blasters (filling in for archery and casting)...which from a "starwarsy" perspective didn't make much sense.
I also agree that level systems stereotype PvP play. WoW made a good stab at this issue with level restricted battlefields, but then the problem becomes the twink issue, which still colors PvP play, even if you're a level 19 in Warsong Gulch. Level systems are easy to code and balance, compared to skill based systems.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi