AmazingAveryAge of Conan AdvocateMemberUncommonPosts: 7,188
Originally posted by Apraxis
WAR and AoC cost both much more than Vanguard, or got the vanguard production team over 120 devs, as both WAR and AoC have. I really dont know how much they will need, to call it a success, but it will be much more than any mmorpg before, and i really guess both aim at 500k subs+, and that 200k could not be enough to call it a success, it may be enough to run it in a healthy state, but as i said.. just guesswork.
Gaute was quoted in a Norweigen newpaper the other week as saying that the estimate for the finished product is 20 to 25 million $
Which is more expensive that Norways most expensive film.
Gaute did also mention if they only get 100 000 subscribers it will be a flop and he dont wont to say how many they estimate will subscribe.
Yeah, there is at least 1 german fan site, which is quite active, but as i said, in comparasion to WAR. It is almost crazy, how much hype is around over this game here in germany one year before release.
Talk is cheap, and this is pretty much all of what we have, unless you're in the beta, on all of the new releases. I gave up on what devs say after vg and lotr's. drop it when it's ready and may the best game win
Nice catch on that cheap shot made by the funcom dev. I missed that the first time I read it. Doesn't surprise me in the least that they would stoop so low to make personal attacks on other developers. Very unprofessional. And that level of unprofessionalism deserves roasting! They must really be scared of the competition to lash out like that. Of course, if my development team was made up of programming interns like Funcom's appears to be.. i would be scared too. They have a lot in common with their fanbase.. Kind of like how they say dogs resemble their owners. Can't wait to see what prerendered scenes they have to show off at games day and to see the dogs eat it up like turds on the lawn. Lying to customers.. check
Attacking other games.. check
'Secret" features they won't show until release.. check
Horde of mindless fanboys.. check Vanguard 2.0 here we come. The question is... will SoE be willing to save them? I didn't really want to say these mean things... but you know funcom was just asking for it this time.
A.) They haven't released a single prerendered screenshot or movie since the game began development. Get it through your skull that the images presented are real.
B.) The development team is made up of experienced personell from all around the world. Two minutes in the bio pages will show experts, not remotely deserving of the term programming interns.
C.) They never once mentioned any game or game developers. The practice of bullshitting about why a delay occurs is very common, if an insult is implied, it is an insult towards nearly every game developer in existance INCLUDING THEMSELVES (during the AO launch). And it is an insult that needs to be born, unless you would prefer that developers continue to lie to you?
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. Hemingway
AoC is undermining itself at the moment, I'm not at all worried.
Few of my guildies have been monitoring and buying Funcom stock, which plummeted 47% just now with the announcement..
This isn't a good sign for the company, the game or the parties funding it.
But, the bigger picture is that there's two options that AoC will do, considering it's very ambitious nature.
It will either revolutionalize the whole MMO genre..
Or crash and burn horribly.
Sounds like a good time to buy stock to me.
Funcom will be fine, they just secured a 30 million dollar grant remember? It was likely in anticipation of the drop.
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. Hemingway
A.) They haven't released a single prerendered screenshot or movie since the game began development. Get it through your skull that the images presented are real.
B.) The development team is made up of experienced personell from all around the world. Two minutes in the bio pages will show experts, not remotely deserving of the term programming interns. C.) They never once mentioned any game or game developers. The practice of bullshitting about why a delay occurs is very common, if an insult is implied, it is an insult towards nearly every game developer in existance INCLUDING THEMSELVES (during the AO launch). And it is an insult that needs to be born, unless you would prefer that developers continue to lie to you?
a) . i seen some pretty edited vids. Not so much doctored but a dev, etc recored combat standign still 95% of the time .. as to no show the skating (and you could see it one short side movement he made). These vids also cut out quickly as to not show the repeditive nature of the combat... ie boring. So .. while they haven't made new renderings they have ... spun some vids.
b) no doubt this is true.
c). Oh come one man like like takign a gun pointing it at someone then closing your eyes and then firing. Later in the court room using the defence, " well my eyes were closed so i can't tell you who i shot only that i didn't SEE anyone when i pulled the trigger." Of course they didn't see anyone their eyes were CLOSED. However they did aim then pull the trigger.
It so obvious that the Funcom took a stab at mythic, denial of this = you are a fanboy ... no argument case closed. Personlly .. i have no issue with the comment ... i prefer more devs doing this, it puts pressure on other compainies and their own company to be more honest with the public.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
After careful consideration, and analysis of recent feedback from Beta testing of `Age of Conan`, Funcom and Eidos have concluded that more development time is required to reduce the entry barrier to `Age of Conan` and make the game even more accessible during the first hours of playtime."
" After careful consideration, and analysis of recent feedback from Beta testing of `Age of Conan`, Funcom and Eidos have concluded that more development time is required to reduce the entry barrier to `Age of Conan` and make the game even more accessible during the first hours of playtime."
what does that mean? Revamp?
It means it's not easy enough......needs to be more WoW-like.
" After careful consideration, and analysis of recent feedback from Beta testing of `Age of Conan`, Funcom and Eidos have concluded that more development time is required to reduce the entry barrier to `Age of Conan` and make the game even more accessible during the first hours of playtime."
what does that mean? Revamp?
It means it's not easy enough......needs to be more WoW-like.
I took it to mean people were bored of the single player leveling to 20 before actually playing the MMO. I expect this to change where you may only need to level up to 10 before entering MMO areas. That would explain 6 months worth of work fleshing out the areas between 10 and 20.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
I took it to mean people were bored of the single player leveling to 20 before actually playing the MMO. I expect this to change where you may only need to level up to 10 before entering MMO areas. That would explain 6 months worth of work fleshing out the areas between 10 and 20.
It's not impossible, but I think that you're on the wrong track.
I took it to mean people were bored of the single player leveling to 20 before actually playing the MMO. I expect this to change where you may only need to level up to 10 before entering MMO areas. That would explain 6 months worth of work fleshing out the areas between 10 and 20.
It's not impossible, but I think that you're on the wrong track.
Could be... the keys to that sentence is "entry barrier" and "first few hours".
Revamping the combat system does not seem to fit anywhere for the term entry barrier... the initial combat is not at all complex from the movies and what they have described would be the combo progression. They are clearly talking about the beginning of the game which we know is single player until lv 20. While it was interesting to put in this genre hybrid concept, I never quite understood why they did it. If you make a safe zone for level 1 - 20 it provides the same service as single player for those levels with the added bonus you can hook up with your friends immediately in the game and learn together...
Like I said... I very well could be wrong, but to me it makes more sense then the combat system being overly complicated... From the videos it was pretty straight forward and simple.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
I can't stop whisteling "Always look at the bright side of life" when I read this thread
Edit: I do feel sorry for the employees Funcom. The marked punished the announcement a bit to harsh. But the stock will probably recover some of the losses, so monday would be a good time to invest some cash in funcom.
--- And when we got more women on the team, it was like No, no, no. We need puppies and horses in there. John Smedley, SOE
Bottom line is if it ain't fun and does not run smoothly it will not be profitable.Six months gives the hardware industry time to improve video performance which from rumors was a issue and give them time to work on the fun factor and make sure there is sufficient content. I have been both hopeful and yet sceptical over the combat system for a while now. There are reasons why most MMO's use the familiar system that they do. Lag and fun factor are the main reasons in my opinion. Funcom is doing the right thing, a SOE ' ish Vanguard release would put the game into a hole it could never crawl out of.
Concerning all the conspiracy theories about why they delayed...
While changing the combo system, adjusting combos to fit, and rebalancing classes to reflect the changes is a more daunting and time consuming task than most have said it is, no, that is not the only thing they will be doing. They gave one of the primary changes they would be working on, without listing the 1001 other small items that would have to be tweaked, partly to accomodate the combat changes, partly because they just need tweaking. One of the first rules of programming, be it a game, a virus, or a filing program, is that you are NEVER done getting the problems out, you are never short on the number of things you can do to improve it.
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. Hemingway
Actually it was -42,57 at end friday. I can't stop whisteling "Always look at the bright side of life" when I read this thread Edit: I do feel sorry for the employees Funcom. The marked punished the announcement a bit to harsh. But the stock will probably recover some of the losses, so monday would be a good time to invest some cash in funcom.
Thsi si alot ill admit but the stock market recently took a hit to so some of it maybe related to this (not a majority but some)
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
According to Norwegian finance newspaper Dagens Næringsliv, Funcom's owners lost over $120 million dollars as Funcom shares plummeted 47,8 per cent upon the announcement that Age of Conan will be delayed. Tthis means AoC might have to compete not just with WoW/TBC but also Warhammer Online, Wrath of the Lich King and whatever other major MMOs might be scheduled for release in the near future. Earlier this summer, Funcom received as much as $30 million dollars in funding from various investors. According to analyst Espen Torgersen of Carniege, Funcom's credibility is at an all-time low, and that the only way they can pull through this is by releasing the game as soon as possible and make sure the launch is successful (Right guess, Sherlock). According to product manager Erling Ellingsen, they've pushed the title back because beta testers identified some areas which needed improving if the game were to match other competitors in the market.
Funcom head honcho, Trond Arne Aas, who owns 3% of the company's shares, does not comment much, but says that he's been running from meeting to meeting with other owners and investors, and that they're all mighty pissed off. Investors bought Funcom shares at 38,12NOK (approximately $6,57) a piece earlier this summer. As of yesterday, Funcom's shares were worth 20,10NOK (or $3,45).
They simply could have ignored the issues ala Vanguard but they didn't. Kudos for them! It shows they want to make a great game for their players. For months the nay sayers would come in the conan forums and say it is going to be another Vanguard release, well guess what they fooled you guys eh ? My pre-order will be waiting for me in Q1 2008. It is going to be a great game to play.
They simply could have ignored the issues ala Vanguard but they didn't. Kudos for them! It shows they want to make a great game for their players. For months the nay sayers would come in the conan forums and say it is going to be another Vanguard release, well guess what they fooled you guys eh ? My pre-order will be waiting for me in Q1 2008. It is going to be a great game to play.
It would have been another Vanguard release if they released at october 30th and that's the point. "fooled you guys eh?" Ye they can keep pushing it to 2012 and you would still go "hah! no vanguard here, fooled ya!". People were right, it was in a bad shape, and _that_ is the point. Ofc they did the right thing pushing it back, now lets pray for a great game shall we
You guys can bet your butts that this is the very last pushback we will see. Funcom's investors and owners are pissed and are pretty much squeezed for all theyre worth. It will suck for Funcom if the game crash and burns, this will put them out for good. However I have faith that AoC is gonna rock.
Originally posted by checkthis500 Coming from a Software testing group that tests accounting software. If we would have come out and said "Hey we have this problem with adding, subtracting and multiplying." It doesn't work right. And we had been developing/internally testing it for 2 years. We would have all been fired. it's an extreme example, but it's accurate. The thing is. It "is" a good thing that they're delaying it. The bad thing is that the reasons for delaying it are things that people have been pointing out for 2 years, and they didn't think to go back and think they were credible opinions until probably the majority of beta testers gave them the same exact opinions. I think it's bad form on the testing group that works for Funcom. Someone should have "ponied up" and said "Ummm guys, this combat system is a bit hard and could use "a lot of little tweaks over the whole thing."
I would be willing to bet that the test group did "pony up". It was probably a bone of contention between the design team and the beta test group until finally, the design team had to relent and admit that that system was flawed.
For a game that is in extended development, especially when you, as the developer, have already put in considerable time on the game mechanics and have become enamored of the game concept and its mechanics, it can be difficult to overcome your own feelings or perceptions about a particular system when you begin receiving negative input.
At first, your tendency is to assume that the game mechanics (systems that the game are based on, rather than supporting content or actual bugs) issues reported by your beta tester group are due to a lack of familiarity with the product. Normally you ask your test group to continue testing with the assumption that as they become more familiar with the system, those initial complaints will either change or disappear altogether.
Sometimes that is what happens. Your beta group becomes more familiar with the system and as they progress through the game, they fully adopt the mechanic in question and what put them off in the beginning is a moot issue.
And then there are those times when it becomes more and more clear that the mechanic in question is just honestly flawed in some way. It is either too complex, too difficult to use or requires too much time investment compared to the reward.
In any of those cases, the mechanic itself is performing as designed; but it detracts from the activity that is supposed to be "fun" for a huge audience, which can be much more difficult to quantify than the ability of a given program to add, subtract or multiply.
The length of time it takes the designer to come to terms with the fact that what they thought was "fun" actually isn't can drag out the whole process. It really boils down to how stubborn the design team/lead is, how much they let this design failure affect them personally and what remaining time and resources they have left to address the situation.
From the developer's posts, it sounds to me as though this was exactly the situation. The design team was resisting the idea that the complexity of the combat system was interfering with the "fun" of game play. They were loathe to change a system that they saw as highly innovative and in which they had already invested considerable time.
It sounds like it boiled down to a "do or die" situation where they had to make the decision to either face facts and push back release to give them time to re-evaluate what is a core game mechanic or push forward and publish.
Personally, I think it's a shame that it sounds like the development team stuck to their guns on the combat system past the point where it was clear to the test group that it was flawed, but at least on the upside they finally made the decision to listen to their beta testers and revise the system, rather than saddling the players with it.
Abbatoir / Abbatoir Cinq Adnihilo Beorn Judge's Edge Somnulus Perfect Black ---------------------- Asheron's Call / Asheron's Call 2 Everquest / Everquest 2 Anarchy Online Shadowbane Dark Age of Camelot Star Wars Galaxies Matrix Online World of Warcraft Guild Wars City of Heroes
You can be assured that this will take people that would've bought AOC in October and put them buying WAR instead since it'll be out before or right around AOC.
Bad move IMO, AOC really needs to launch at least a month before WAR if they're gonna have any chance of stealing people off the WAR bandwagon.
Comments
Which is more expensive that Norways most expensive film.
and he dont wont to say how many they estimate will subscribe.
Gaute did also mention if they only get 100 000 subscribers it will be a flop
link in Norwegian If your any good at reading it
I dunno if you have checked out the German AoC fan sites, they seem pretty active to me.
Hmm.. interesting.. as i thought.
Yeah, there is at least 1 german fan site, which is quite active, but as i said, in comparasion to WAR. It is almost crazy, how much hype is around over this game here in germany one year before release.
Talk is cheap, and this is pretty much all of what we have, unless you're in the beta, on all of the new releases. I gave up on what devs say after vg and lotr's. drop it when it's ready and may the best game win
AoC is undermining itself at the moment, I'm not at all worried.
Few of my guildies have been monitoring and buying Funcom stock, which plummeted 47% just now with the announcement..
This isn't a good sign for the company, the game or the parties funding it.
But, the bigger picture is that there's two options that AoC will do, considering it's very ambitious nature.
It will either revolutionalize the whole MMO genre..
Or crash and burn horribly.
This is great news! It shows they actually listen to their beta testers. Way to go Funcom. Now let me in the beta already.
Thats 42.5% down, but Im not too worried EA are also nearly down $250 million might have to rush warhammer out.
ITs the perfect time to invest in Funcom.
There are alot more options than the two you listed, if you looked at the bigger picture you would know that.
B.) The development team is made up of experienced personell from all around the world. Two minutes in the bio pages will show experts, not remotely deserving of the term programming interns.
C.) They never once mentioned any game or game developers. The practice of bullshitting about why a delay occurs is very common, if an insult is implied, it is an insult towards nearly every game developer in existance INCLUDING THEMSELVES (during the AO launch). And it is an insult that needs to be born, unless you would prefer that developers continue to lie to you?
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
Hemingway
Sounds like a good time to buy stock to me.
Funcom will be fine, they just secured a 30 million dollar grant remember? It was likely in anticipation of the drop.
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
Hemingway
a) . i seen some pretty edited vids. Not so much doctored but a dev, etc recored combat standign still 95% of the time .. as to no show the skating (and you could see it one short side movement he made). These vids also cut out quickly as to not show the repeditive nature of the combat... ie boring. So .. while they haven't made new renderings they have ... spun some vids.
b) no doubt this is true.
c). Oh come one man like like takign a gun pointing it at someone then closing your eyes and then firing. Later in the court room using the defence, " well my eyes were closed so i can't tell you who i shot only that i didn't SEE anyone when i pulled the trigger." Of course they didn't see anyone their eyes were CLOSED. However they did aim then pull the trigger.
It so obvious that the Funcom took a stab at mythic, denial of this = you are a fanboy ... no argument case closed. Personlly .. i have no issue with the comment ... i prefer more devs doing this, it puts pressure on other compainies and their own company to be more honest with the public.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
"
After careful consideration, and analysis ofrecent
feedback from Beta testing of `Age of Conan`,
Funcom and Eidos have concluded that more
development time is required to reduce the entry
barrier to `Age of Conan` and make the game even
more accessible during the first hours of playtime."
what does that mean? Revamp?eqnext.wikia.com
It means it's not easy enough......needs to be more WoW-like.
bah.... just BAH.. leave me waiting again for |AOC, just like for TLG part 3... BAh
It means it's not easy enough......needs to be more WoW-like.
I took it to mean people were bored of the single player leveling to 20 before actually playing the MMO. I expect this to change where you may only need to level up to 10 before entering MMO areas. That would explain 6 months worth of work fleshing out the areas between 10 and 20.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
It's not impossible, but I think that you're on the wrong track.
It's not impossible, but I think that you're on the wrong track.
Could be... the keys to that sentence is "entry barrier" and "first few hours".Revamping the combat system does not seem to fit anywhere for the term entry barrier... the initial combat is not at all complex from the movies and what they have described would be the combo progression. They are clearly talking about the beginning of the game which we know is single player until lv 20. While it was interesting to put in this genre hybrid concept, I never quite understood why they did it. If you make a safe zone for level 1 - 20 it provides the same service as single player for those levels with the added bonus you can hook up with your friends immediately in the game and learn together...
Like I said... I very well could be wrong, but to me it makes more sense then the combat system being overly complicated... From the videos it was pretty straight forward and simple.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
Thats 42.5% down, but Im not too worried EA are also nearly down $250 million might have to rush warhammer out.
ITs the perfect time to invest in Funcom.
There are alot more options than the two you listed, if you looked at the bigger picture you would know that.
Actually it was -42,57 at end friday.
I can't stop whisteling "Always look at the bright side of life" when I read this thread
Edit: I do feel sorry for the employees Funcom. The marked punished the announcement a bit to harsh. But the stock will probably recover some of the losses, so monday would be a good time to invest some cash in funcom.
---
And when we got more women on the team, it was like No, no, no. We need puppies and horses in there.
John Smedley, SOE
Bottom line is if it ain't fun and does not run smoothly it will not be profitable.Six months gives the hardware industry time to improve video performance which from rumors was a issue and give them time to work on the fun factor and make sure there is sufficient content. I have been both hopeful and yet sceptical over the combat system for a while now. There are reasons why most MMO's use the familiar system that they do. Lag and fun factor are the main reasons in my opinion. Funcom is doing the right thing, a SOE ' ish Vanguard release would put the game into a hole it could never crawl out of.
I miss DAoC
Concerning all the conspiracy theories about why they delayed...
While changing the combo system, adjusting combos to fit, and rebalancing classes to reflect the changes is a more daunting and time consuming task than most have said it is, no, that is not the only thing they will be doing. They gave one of the primary changes they would be working on, without listing the 1001 other small items that would have to be tweaked, partly to accomodate the combat changes, partly because they just need tweaking. One of the first rules of programming, be it a game, a virus, or a filing program, is that you are NEVER done getting the problems out, you are never short on the number of things you can do to improve it.
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
Hemingway
Thsi si alot ill admit but the stock market recently took a hit to so some of it maybe related to this (not a majority but some)
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
According to Norwegian finance newspaper Dagens Næringsliv, Funcom's owners lost over $120 million dollars as Funcom shares plummeted 47,8 per cent upon the announcement that Age of Conan will be delayed. Tthis means AoC might have to compete not just with WoW/TBC but also Warhammer Online, Wrath of the Lich King and whatever other major MMOs might be scheduled for release in the near future. Earlier this summer, Funcom received as much as $30 million dollars in funding from various investors. According to analyst Espen Torgersen of Carniege, Funcom's credibility is at an all-time low, and that the only way they can pull through this is by releasing the game as soon as possible and make sure the launch is successful (Right guess, Sherlock). According to product manager Erling Ellingsen, they've pushed the title back because beta testers identified some areas which needed improving if the game were to match other competitors in the market.
Funcom head honcho, Trond Arne Aas, who owns 3% of the company's shares, does not comment much, but says that he's been running from meeting to meeting with other owners and investors, and that they're all mighty pissed off. Investors bought Funcom shares at 38,12NOK (approximately $6,57) a piece earlier this summer. As of yesterday, Funcom's shares were worth 20,10NOK (or $3,45).
Ouch.
They simply could have ignored the issues ala Vanguard but they didn't. Kudos for them! It shows they want to make a great game for their players. For months the nay sayers would come in the conan forums and say it is going to be another Vanguard release, well guess what they fooled you guys eh ? My pre-order will be waiting for me in Q1 2008. It is going to be a great game to play.
It would have been another Vanguard release if they released at october 30th and that's the point. "fooled you guys eh?" Ye they can keep pushing it to 2012 and you would still go "hah! no vanguard here, fooled ya!". People were right, it was in a bad shape, and _that_ is the point. Ofc they did the right thing pushing it back, now lets pray for a great game shall we
You guys can bet your butts that this is the very last pushback we will see. Funcom's investors and owners are pissed and are pretty much squeezed for all theyre worth. It will suck for Funcom if the game crash and burns, this will put them out for good. However I have faith that AoC is gonna rock.
I would be willing to bet that the test group did "pony up". It was probably a bone of contention between the design team and the beta test group until finally, the design team had to relent and admit that that system was flawed.
For a game that is in extended development, especially when you, as the developer, have already put in considerable time on the game mechanics and have become enamored of the game concept and its mechanics, it can be difficult to overcome your own feelings or perceptions about a particular system when you begin receiving negative input.
At first, your tendency is to assume that the game mechanics (systems that the game are based on, rather than supporting content or actual bugs) issues reported by your beta tester group are due to a lack of familiarity with the product. Normally you ask your test group to continue testing with the assumption that as they become more familiar with the system, those initial complaints will either change or disappear altogether.
Sometimes that is what happens. Your beta group becomes more familiar with the system and as they progress through the game, they fully adopt the mechanic in question and what put them off in the beginning is a moot issue.
And then there are those times when it becomes more and more clear that the mechanic in question is just honestly flawed in some way. It is either too complex, too difficult to use or requires too much time investment compared to the reward.
In any of those cases, the mechanic itself is performing as designed; but it detracts from the activity that is supposed to be "fun" for a huge audience, which can be much more difficult to quantify than the ability of a given program to add, subtract or multiply.
The length of time it takes the designer to come to terms with the fact that what they thought was "fun" actually isn't can drag out the whole process. It really boils down to how stubborn the design team/lead is, how much they let this design failure affect them personally and what remaining time and resources they have left to address the situation.
From the developer's posts, it sounds to me as though this was exactly the situation. The design team was resisting the idea that the complexity of the combat system was interfering with the "fun" of game play. They were loathe to change a system that they saw as highly innovative and in which they had already invested considerable time.
It sounds like it boiled down to a "do or die" situation where they had to make the decision to either face facts and push back release to give them time to re-evaluate what is a core game mechanic or push forward and publish.
Personally, I think it's a shame that it sounds like the development team stuck to their guns on the combat system past the point where it was clear to the test group that it was flawed, but at least on the upside they finally made the decision to listen to their beta testers and revise the system, rather than saddling the players with it.
Abbatoir / Abbatoir Cinq
Adnihilo
Beorn Judge's Edge
Somnulus
Perfect Black
----------------------
Asheron's Call / Asheron's Call 2
Everquest / Everquest 2
Anarchy Online
Shadowbane
Dark Age of Camelot
Star Wars Galaxies
Matrix Online
World of Warcraft
Guild Wars
City of Heroes
You can be assured that this will take people that would've bought AOC in October and put them buying WAR instead since it'll be out before or right around AOC.
Bad move IMO, AOC really needs to launch at least a month before WAR if they're gonna have any chance of stealing people off the WAR bandwagon.