What a nice, friendly thread. I just have one thing to say: I liked Diablo. Stop. Is diablo an rpg? Is diablo an actionrpg? Is Tetris an action game? Is Revenge of the mutant camels a space sim? I really, really, really don't care about genres. It happens with music, cinema, games.... a lot of people arguing about the perfect way to define a game. Just play it, if you like it. Well, that's my point of view... I respect yours
Wow, first post on this nonsense? Really after 3 years of a nonposter that is impressive.
What a nice, friendly thread. I just have one thing to say: I liked Diablo. Stop. Is diablo an rpg? Is diablo an actionrpg? Is Tetris an action game? Is Revenge of the mutant camels a space sim? I really, really, really don't care about genres. It happens with music, cinema, games.... a lot of people arguing about the perfect way to define a game. Just play it, if you like it. Well, that's my point of view... I respect yours
Yes of course it does matter in this situation, because Flagship Studios called themselves the RPG authority.
And poster HoldMe thanks for your post. It summarizes the points perfectly as I see them, I couldn't explain it better.
The thing is i consider Diablo as hack'n slash action game with RPG features. Even if you dare to call it action RPG, it's noway near to agree with that Flagship self-title RPG Authority.
You also gonna make thread about the 100s of Asian MMO website claiming they have the most awared game in [Instert Asian country]?
Also Diablo is an action RPG, infact seeing there core members have created Diablo they have an right to claim the titel for first, last and only voice.
No Diablo is not RPG nor action RPG nor combat RPG or whatever. And I don't care who or what calls it that way, I don't care if those 18 years old kids called reviewers, writing for pseudo review websites like IGN or gamespot. RPG is a genre with its specifications. Diablo doesnt meet any of those.
Is tropico a game called political RPG? Sims called life RPG?, Europa 1400 Guild called economical RPG? No same as Diablo is not action RPG, it's just action game.
In tropico or Europa 1400 guild you have a story, you have a character with traits you pick and improve. That's just not enough to call a game a RPG. And Diablo has nothing more.
Ahahaha. D2 is an rpg and so is hellgate. It may be different in some ways then other rpgs but it is still classified as an rpg. Tell me what makes it not?
Why are you so eff'in butthurt? Hellgate is an RPG. I dont know about the "Authority" but its a good game and its an RPG in which i can play online with massive amounts of other people. I guess that makes it an MMORPG. Not on the same scale as WoW or EQ of course but an MMORPG none the less. Im playing the roll of a dude with purple hair. He wields two automatic handguns, blows zombies heads off, levels up, and gains new skills and attributes. I have a blademaster friend. Hes got grey hair. He wields to swords and spins through crowds of zombies, dismembering and decapitating as he goes. He levels up as well. We meet people as well and they join us on our crusade to rid london of hell's minions.
This in turn takes us to harder areas of the game where i find a Volt Rifle from a Boss Mob that fires faster then nailguns in Quake. Now i'm on a crusade with others to stop these demons from invading humanity.
I guess thats pretty RPG. You know i am playing the role of someone. In a fantasy setting a bit off from reality. Its kinda sick.
Why are you so eff'in butthurt. Hellgate is an RPG. I dont know about the "Authority" but its a good game and its an RPG in which i can play online with massive amounts of other people. I guess that makes it an MMORPG. Not on the same scale as WoW or EQ of course but an MMORPG none the less. Im playing the roll of a dude with purple hair. He wields two automatic handguns, blows zombies heads off, levels up, and gains new skills and attributes. I have a blademaster friend. Hes got grey hair. He wields to swords and spins through crowds of zombies, dismembering and decapitating as he goes. He levels up as well. We meet people as well and they join us on our crusade to rid london of hell's minions. This in turn takes us to harder areas of the game where i find a Volt Rifle from a Boss Mob that fires faster then nailguns in Quake. Now i'm on a crusade with others to stop these demons from invading humanity.
I guess thats pretty RPG. You know i am playing the role of someone. In a fantasy setting a bit off from reality. Its kinda sick. Imaginaaaaaaition.
God damn useless post. And just for the record, the team who created Diablo was Flagship , previously a part of Blizzard and they left a bit before or after Burning Crusade ( world of warcraft ). So if you say the creators of Diablo are "The RPG Authority" and not Flagship....contradiction... and now a spinning smily :
I could probably care less, but seriously. OP, you're asking what makes this game an RPG, and there have been numerous posts explaining why it is an RPG. Yet you say that they don't have the intelligence to explain it in their own words, even though Wikipedia explains it loud and clear?
It also doesn't make sense to me why you keep comparing this game with Tropico.
Um, didn't you all know that original poster is right?
Diablo is NOT an RPG because nobody in their right mind can imagine themselves as a knight in black armor with a huge weapon, slaying demons, completing quests that are not in real life but are only in fairy tales, or anything of the sort.
Oh wait, I'm sorry, this just in! I'm getting a report that says - What part of ROLE PLAYING GAME don't you understand? ROLE PLAYING as a character that is created from the ground up by you, given the limitations of whichever game is definitely ROLE PLAYING. PLAYING the ROLE of someone in a GAME is definitely in there. You talk so much about RPG elements, yet you don't seem to be able to distinguish your own interpretation that 99.999999% of the world do not agree with, and complete and utter falacy.
It's alright though, I can play a schweet action game with RPG elements whether or not its labeled "RPG". What others label a game has nothing to do with what the game truly is or how I interpret it, and I imagine that you think the same way... Just... Way out there as if you were from some far away planet that nobody has heard of or will ever discover in hopes of saving their brains and intelligence.
*EDIT AFTER RE-READING THIS POST I REALISED ELEMENTS OF SARCASM******
DIABLO IS NOT A ROCKET PROPELLED GRENADE. /enddumbassremarks
People believe its an rpg cause, well, it is. Your playing a role of a character trying to kill teh primevils. Its not like we're saying its the ONLY rpg, and its definately not the best. Really i dont care if they're RPGS or not, hell they could be considered racing games for all I care (cmon connect the dots your goin as fast as you cna to reach the end level and you might crash a few times on the way up IT MAKES PERFECT SENSE). So we kinda agree on that point.
All i know is just becaue you dont roll dice and write down your characters information and have a guy as the designated DM doesnt mean it cant have some Role playing elements.
meh.. I see where the OP is coming from... Personally I must say that even if Diablo I and II were quite fun hack'n'slash games with RPG elements I wouldn't really call it an RPG... I have yet to meet Anyone who actually roleplayed in that game - no doubt they exist though. Even if D1 and D2 had RPG elements they're hardly compelling - though the story is quite well told - but for Flagship Studios to call themselves "The RPG Authority" is just laughable to me. Flame me if you wish, I don't really care - I have my own opinion, you have yours.
I roleplayed. I roleplayed the Crazybirdman with max level ravens. I roleplayed a barbarian that has every item will proc something. So yes roleplayers in diablo do exist. Or at least i exist.
well technicaly they can be rpg authority. Sales whise. Really its the big dawgs who say what is what. We all just have to give in as consumers. I mean we can all have our own renditions on whats what, i know i do. But majority rules.
D2 is a roguelike, think about it. Its got random dungeon levels, random items, random mobs you go down the levels to fight the boss. Pick a class some vague leveling few new abilities its Nethack or ADOM, with better graphics.
Well no Maxis takes the RPG to the next level which is simulation. That is a completely different tier of gameplay. Role playing game is a VERY broad term. Originally choose your own adventure books where the only Role Playing Game. Its only evolved into several different genres.
ActionRPG aka Diablo, titans quest, dynasty warriors, and to an extent NWN1. Foregoing some of the more extreme forms of RPG for a run and gun style of combat. Multiple classes, multiple skill trees per class, stats, Level, XP. Its an RPG.
TurnBased RPG: Final Fantasy, Breath of Fire, FFIX. This is the classic RPG style. We all grew up with NES, SNES, Genesis, and Playstation.
MMORPG "the king of all": There is a reason I say the king of all. MMORPGS are a very tight kind of game. If you don't have one feature its no longer a RPG its a plain old MMO.
Not only od you have to have the standard, Multiple classes, multiple skill trees per class, stats, Level, XP,
but you also HAVE to have PVP. Yea You have to have it else it can NOT by a true MMORPG. If your not able to kill other players and are limited to PVE your are playing an mmodungeon crawler. There is one exception and even they changed and added PVP after a bit. DDO. Origonally PVE only they added several ways to kill your fellow player. To duel IS a key feature in MMO's Combat between realms if an even better one. Now I am not a PVPer. I can do it but It doesn't get my rocks off. But I will defend a REAL MMORPG has PVP or RVR in SOME form.
But finally what sets an RPG apart is it is LIMITED. The only thing keeping NWN1 from being a D&D simulation game is that it is limited in what you ca do. If you don't limit the gameplay in any aspect your start to turn it into a simulation.
Its really not the game itself that makes an RPG. Its the mechanics that are used to excute the game correctally.
Also, Square are good at ~stories~ but there's no RP whatsoever in their games. They're as much a RPG as Diablo is, but with a prominent story.
For a proper RPG experience barring pen and paper you have to look at games like Planescape: Torment, Fallout or The Witcher, just to give a newer example. Games where you decide (within boundaries, sure, but they're needed to tell a story, heh) what your character says and how he/she behaves. Those are generally accepted to be RPGs in the proper sense.
There is RP is squaresofts games. You can make decisions in them. Infact simply controlling a character is making multiple decisions. Like you said, that's what an RPG has. The stories are a big part of RPGs, but squaresoft games also have action and strategy. Much more than a hack and slash game.
If the Diablo series are not RPGs nor Action RPGs, then please educate me and explain what RPG games are. I really would like to know, i've always thought they are RPGs, or action RPGs at least.
I'd like a response from the OP
RPGames give full control over your character. You have plenty of choices how to complete certain activities like quests. You are able to gain reputation in the world, and form your own alligment. In RPG games you can actually think of your RP style (examples: you dislike elves and you will never help -- never undertake any quests from them and take all that wants you to do something bad to them, or you don't trust magicians and therefore you never even speak to them cause you are afraid of them etc. RPGame should allow you to do such decisions, and not limit you in such an extent as Diablo does.
Games like these were not many, but only those give a real feeling of roleplaying that you know from RP pen and paper. Arcanum, Fallout 1/2, Greyhawk TOEE, Vampire the Bloodlines, Planescape Torment, BG1, Gothic1/2, older games I recall bard's tale 1 the version from 1987, lands of lore 1,...
RPgame should have :
adventure (Diablo has it altho it's as linear as possible and doesn't allow you to do anything off the scheme)
character customization (cookie cutter classes with a few talent trees , all just suited for combat and action. There's no single skill that wouldn't somehow improve combat) System with no social skills is no system at all for RP
story (diablo has no story, no don't try to convince me that an evil diablo-guy is going to destroy the world and you have to stop him is a story)
social interaction (there are no skills like diplomacy, bluff, persuade no reputation no sneaking, no pick pocketing, no open locking, no trap disarming ... , it's just as combat oriented as you could possibly imagine)
subquests (I don't think there is a single quests outside of main quest line, I have to admit i didn't finish the whole game but I don't remember getting any quests outside of main quest line, very few optionals)
The game offers nothing more outside of combat, there is nothing, it's just stupidly linear and the only thing you need to do is to smash your mouse buttons. It's pure action game with a few RPG features. But that's also Tropico or The Sims.
Funny, in my view, having achieved max level in D2 and lvl 64 in WOW, the criteria you are labelling as necessary for an RPG is either being met by D2, or not met by WOW.
Adventure: D2 Check WOW Check
Character Customization: Cookie Cutter with a few talent trees D2 Check WOW Check. (Neither meet this criteria)
Story: How is a 'prime-evil' is trying to take over the world and you have to fight through multiple plains to stop them not a story line? guess that means EQ didn't have a story line either. hmmm
Social Interaction: there was as much social interaction in D2 as you'll see in Barrens chat on any given day.
Subquests: technically the whole expansion for D2 was not-essential subquests, and the Cow level
"We aren't going to ... Period. End of statement."
It is a rather interesting thread here. As I am sure will be pointed out my posting count is insanely low, but who cares. I find it quite amusing how the topic strays so far from where it started. I will agree with the original post on it is very laughable for FSS to claim to be the authority on the RPG genre when in my opinion when they have yet to actually put out a previous pure rpg. Sure some of them came from Blizzard, but even they hadn't released a pure rpg as of yet. Now I know I am going to get some flak for that, but it is true. Honestly, there are very few of them out there in digital form. So what do I "feel" is a pure rpg? I forget who has it as a tag line, but it boils down to two important things, freedom and consequence.
Neither of the Diablos are imo an rpg simply based on the fact that, though they do tell an interesting story, I have no real decision on where or what that story becomes. You are locked in. There is no choices to be made outside of what power or pointy object so I want to use to kill the baddies. You are not even given the choice to not kill the baddies. Of course there are no consequences as you don't have any freedom to stray from the intended path. They are a great action game, but really that is all they are. You get better skills and pointy bits, but you gain those in all proper action games. Sure they can be used an a medium for some Role-Playing, but it was never intended to be used in such a manner.
Even most of the so-called mmorpg are not role-playing games. Sure you get the freedom to play what you like, but even then your character's actions has no real impact upon the setting of the game. There is no consequence to your actions. I am sure somewhere out there, there is an exception to all of this, but I haven't found it yet. The closest so far has been SWG with the whole faction occupation of various planets based upon player activity and such. That game has its own faults which is for another time. So if most mmorpgs are not actually role-playing games then what are they? Graphical Multi-User Dungeons. That's right, a MUD with graphics. Doesn't sound very exciting does it? Instead they invent a new term, the Massive Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game. Oooo...that sounds much better. That, of course, is what it is all about. Making something sound so spectacular we will buy it. Sure it is a blatant lie, but it sells the game. In the end that is all they are going to care about.
So what games would I call a pure rpg? Off hand, I would name Fallout 1&2, the Elder Scroll series, the Zork series, most of the Ultimas, and pretty much any game that lets you play who you want and how you want, ones that let you suddenly decide, that despite the long hard hours they have placed into writing that storyline, to just say, "to Hell with it, I'm making my own story." and be just as entertaining.
I think the OP got mixed up with the term RPG and MMORPG.
Diablo was a offline RPG with a few multiplayer functions. In that regards, it is a definitely a RPG.
It is not a mmorpg, where players would roleplay in a community perspective with each other, diablo roleplays in the perspective of the player as the hero of the story.
As whether Flagship studio is the RPG authority is another matter. For one, I personnally hated the fact that they created Hellgate instead of DIablo III, so I am inclined to feel that they don't quite know what the public really want from them in terms of RPGs.
I think the OP got mixed up with the term RPG and MMORPG. Diablo was a offline RPG with a few multiplayer functions. In that regards, it is a definitely a RPG. It is not a mmorpg, where players would roleplay in a community perspective with each other, diablo roleplays in the perspective of the player as the hero of the story. As whether Flagship studio is the RPG authority is another matter. For one, I personnally hated the fact that they created Hellgate instead of DIablo III, so I am inclined to feel that they don't quite know what the public really want from them in terms of RPGs.
If Diablo was a RPG then Baldur's Gate 1 was an adventure detective game.
I humbly submit my theory that the classical application of the term "RPG" is incorrect for the majority of modern games. In order to qualify as an RPG today a game need only provide some very basic control over the character's development, a story to follow, and perhaps a basic item/consumable system.
Of course, RPG used to refer to multiplayer, deep, involved, complex games that had freedom of choice, quantized character abilities and probability based mechanics. However these qualities have been chipped away since the golden age of table-top RPGs. It probably began when we got solo gamebooks and text-based computer games, eliminating the multiplayer component, the depth (although some made up with pretty amazing stories), the complexity, and much of the freedom of choice.
Then came graphical video games such as Gauntlet. It was a hack and slash game in a fantasy setting that allowed you to choose your character from four fantasy archetypes, each with different attributes. It had potions, keys, food, hit points, magic, melee & ranged combat. Most interestingly, it brought back the multiplayer aspect by letting up to four people to play at the same time. Unfortunately its story was non-existent. I have never come across the arcade game but several console and computer versions were made.
Because of graphical limitations, every single RPG game up to the groundbreaking Dungeon Master could not be first person and real time. What you had instead was a tactical overhead view or a static 1st person view, and turn-based play. Dungeon Master changed all that, bringing back the immersion and complexity of traditional table-top gaming (I just played it last year and it is STILL a great game!). They went one step further and made magic something to be discovered and understood, as opposed to just cast at the touch of a button. But for all the success of Dungeon Master, the tactical top-down and isometric views didn't go away, nor did the simplified hack and slash Gauntlet gameplay. And soon, the explosion of console RPGs led to 100% scripted games that offered zero control over the story.
Somehow, somewhere along the way, the term RPG came to mean something vastly simplified compared to its original meaning. I see Diablo and "action RPGs" or "hack and slash RPGs" in general as the spawn of Gauntlet. They're not real RPGs to a purist. But they have some of the elements, often simplified, of RPGs. Diablo 2 in particular is not a serious offender, at least it offers all the basic staples of RPGs (including being multiplayer) except for the fact that a true RPG calculates events based on formulae, and can't be hack and slash - button mashing is not an RPG concept! And that's why they get called "action RPGs" or similar.
In short, what is and isn't an RPG really depends on your view. Personally I think if the label "RPG" were applied a little more strictly, games and gamers would benefit a lot - think deeper games, better immersion, smarter interfaces, etc. I mean, why should S.T.A.L.K.E.R. (a great game) be an FPS-RPG, when Jedi Outcast (an amazing game) is simply an FPS? Is it because the latter is older, or because it doesn't require the insane amount of item management? It's all pretty vague, so not really worth getting worked up about it.
Comments
Wow, first post on this nonsense? Really after 3 years of a nonposter that is impressive.
Yes of course it does matter in this situation, because Flagship Studios called themselves the RPG authority.
And poster HoldMe thanks for your post. It summarizes the points perfectly as I see them, I couldn't explain it better.
The thing is i consider Diablo as hack'n slash action game with RPG features. Even if you dare to call it action RPG, it's noway near to agree with that Flagship self-title RPG Authority.
REALITY CHECK
Flagship Studios is far from the RPG Authority. I chuckled the first time I saw them use that.
No Diablo is not RPG nor action RPG nor combat RPG or whatever. And I don't care who or what calls it that way, I don't care if those 18 years old kids called reviewers, writing for pseudo review websites like IGN or gamespot. RPG is a genre with its specifications. Diablo doesnt meet any of those.
Is tropico a game called political RPG? Sims called life RPG?, Europa 1400 Guild called economical RPG? No same as Diablo is not action RPG, it's just action game.
In tropico or Europa 1400 guild you have a story, you have a character with traits you pick and improve. That's just not enough to call a game a RPG. And Diablo has nothing more.
Ahahaha. D2 is an rpg and so is hellgate. It may be different in some ways then other rpgs but it is still classified as an rpg. Tell me what makes it not?
Why are you so eff'in butthurt? Hellgate is an RPG. I dont know about the "Authority" but its a good game and its an RPG in which i can play online with massive amounts of other people. I guess that makes it an MMORPG. Not on the same scale as WoW or EQ of course but an MMORPG none the less. Im playing the roll of a dude with purple hair. He wields two automatic handguns, blows zombies heads off, levels up, and gains new skills and attributes. I have a blademaster friend. Hes got grey hair. He wields to swords and spins through crowds of zombies, dismembering and decapitating as he goes. He levels up as well. We meet people as well and they join us on our crusade to rid london of hell's minions.
This in turn takes us to harder areas of the game where i find a Volt Rifle from a Boss Mob that fires faster then nailguns in Quake. Now i'm on a crusade with others to stop these demons from invading humanity.
I guess thats pretty RPG. You know i am playing the role of someone. In a fantasy setting a bit off from reality. Its kinda sick.
Imaginaaaaaaition.
w3rd
ahahaha awesome post
God damn useless post. And just for the record, the team who created Diablo was Flagship , previously a part of Blizzard and they left a bit before or after Burning Crusade ( world of warcraft ). So if you say the creators of Diablo are "The RPG Authority" and not Flagship....contradiction... and now a spinning smily :
Yes, the authority with the worst programmers (Electronic Arts).
CURRENTLY PLAYING SHAIYA
I could probably care less, but seriously. OP, you're asking what makes this game an RPG, and there have been numerous posts explaining why it is an RPG. Yet you say that they don't have the intelligence to explain it in their own words, even though Wikipedia explains it loud and clear?
*EDIT AFTER RE-READING THIS POST I REALISED ELEMENTS OF SARCASM******
DIABLO IS NOT A ROCKET PROPELLED GRENADE. /enddumbassremarks
People believe its an rpg cause, well, it is. Your playing a role of a character trying to kill teh primevils. Its not like we're saying its the ONLY rpg, and its definately not the best. Really i dont care if they're RPGS or not, hell they could be considered racing games for all I care (cmon connect the dots your goin as fast as you cna to reach the end level and you might crash a few times on the way up IT MAKES PERFECT SENSE). So we kinda agree on that point.
All i know is just becaue you dont roll dice and write down your characters information and have a guy as the designated DM doesnt mean it cant have some Role playing elements.
I roleplayed. I roleplayed the Crazybirdman with max level ravens. I roleplayed a barbarian that has every item will proc something. So yes roleplayers in diablo do exist. Or at least i exist.
well technicaly they can be rpg authority. Sales whise. Really its the big dawgs who say what is what. We all just have to give in as consumers. I mean we can all have our own renditions on whats what, i know i do. But majority rules.
Eh idk food for thought mroe than anything
Hi there, i just felt like replying on such a heated pointless discussion !!!
Long live the rpgs ! weeeee.. etc...etc...
p.s. Anyone knows any forum where ppl actually consider others opinions? Ive been lookin for years with no luck =|
ok, break time over! carry on children.
/me shout Flames ON ! and leave flying thru the window.
D2 is a roguelike, think about it. Its got random dungeon levels, random items, random mobs you go down the levels to fight the boss. Pick a class some vague leveling few new abilities its Nethack or ADOM, with better graphics.
Well no Maxis takes the RPG to the next level which is simulation. That is a completely different tier of gameplay. Role playing game is a VERY broad term. Originally choose your own adventure books where the only Role Playing Game. Its only evolved into several different genres.
ActionRPG aka Diablo, titans quest, dynasty warriors, and to an extent NWN1. Foregoing some of the more extreme forms of RPG for a run and gun style of combat. Multiple classes, multiple skill trees per class, stats, Level, XP. Its an RPG.
TurnBased RPG: Final Fantasy, Breath of Fire, FFIX. This is the classic RPG style. We all grew up with NES, SNES, Genesis, and Playstation.
MMORPG "the king of all": There is a reason I say the king of all. MMORPGS are a very tight kind of game. If you don't have one feature its no longer a RPG its a plain old MMO.
Not only od you have to have the standard, Multiple classes, multiple skill trees per class, stats, Level, XP,
but you also HAVE to have PVP. Yea You have to have it else it can NOT by a true MMORPG. If your not able to kill other players and are limited to PVE your are playing an mmodungeon crawler. There is one exception and even they changed and added PVP after a bit. DDO. Origonally PVE only they added several ways to kill your fellow player. To duel IS a key feature in MMO's Combat between realms if an even better one. Now I am not a PVPer. I can do it but It doesn't get my rocks off. But I will defend a REAL MMORPG has PVP or RVR in SOME form.
But finally what sets an RPG apart is it is LIMITED. The only thing keeping NWN1 from being a D&D simulation game is that it is limited in what you ca do. If you don't limit the gameplay in any aspect your start to turn it into a simulation.
Its really not the game itself that makes an RPG. Its the mechanics that are used to excute the game correctally.
There is RP is squaresofts games. You can make decisions in them. Infact simply controlling a character is making multiple decisions. Like you said, that's what an RPG has. The stories are a big part of RPGs, but squaresoft games also have action and strategy. Much more than a hack and slash game.
Games like these were not many, but only those give a real feeling of roleplaying that you know from RP pen and paper. Arcanum, Fallout 1/2, Greyhawk TOEE, Vampire the Bloodlines, Planescape Torment, BG1, Gothic1/2, older games I recall bard's tale 1 the version from 1987, lands of lore 1,...
RPgame should have :
The game offers nothing more outside of combat, there is nothing, it's just stupidly linear and the only thing you need to do is to smash your mouse buttons. It's pure action game with a few RPG features. But that's also Tropico or The Sims.
Funny, in my view, having achieved max level in D2 and lvl 64 in WOW, the criteria you are labelling as necessary for an RPG is either being met by D2, or not met by WOW.Adventure: D2 Check WOW Check
Character Customization: Cookie Cutter with a few talent trees D2 Check WOW Check. (Neither meet this criteria)
Story: How is a 'prime-evil' is trying to take over the world and you have to fight through multiple plains to stop them not a story line? guess that means EQ didn't have a story line either. hmmm
Social Interaction: there was as much social interaction in D2 as you'll see in Barrens chat on any given day.
Subquests: technically the whole expansion for D2 was not-essential subquests, and the Cow level
"We aren't going to ... Period. End of statement."
ya. ok. whatever.
but what do i know, i'm only a vanbois i'm told.
It is a rather interesting thread here. As I am sure will be pointed out my posting count is insanely low, but who cares. I find it quite amusing how the topic strays so far from where it started. I will agree with the original post on it is very laughable for FSS to claim to be the authority on the RPG genre when in my opinion when they have yet to actually put out a previous pure rpg. Sure some of them came from Blizzard, but even they hadn't released a pure rpg as of yet. Now I know I am going to get some flak for that, but it is true. Honestly, there are very few of them out there in digital form. So what do I "feel" is a pure rpg? I forget who has it as a tag line, but it boils down to two important things, freedom and consequence.
Neither of the Diablos are imo an rpg simply based on the fact that, though they do tell an interesting story, I have no real decision on where or what that story becomes. You are locked in. There is no choices to be made outside of what power or pointy object so I want to use to kill the baddies. You are not even given the choice to not kill the baddies. Of course there are no consequences as you don't have any freedom to stray from the intended path. They are a great action game, but really that is all they are. You get better skills and pointy bits, but you gain those in all proper action games. Sure they can be used an a medium for some Role-Playing, but it was never intended to be used in such a manner.
Even most of the so-called mmorpg are not role-playing games. Sure you get the freedom to play what you like, but even then your character's actions has no real impact upon the setting of the game. There is no consequence to your actions. I am sure somewhere out there, there is an exception to all of this, but I haven't found it yet. The closest so far has been SWG with the whole faction occupation of various planets based upon player activity and such. That game has its own faults which is for another time. So if most mmorpgs are not actually role-playing games then what are they? Graphical Multi-User Dungeons. That's right, a MUD with graphics. Doesn't sound very exciting does it? Instead they invent a new term, the Massive Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game. Oooo...that sounds much better. That, of course, is what it is all about. Making something sound so spectacular we will buy it. Sure it is a blatant lie, but it sells the game. In the end that is all they are going to care about.
So what games would I call a pure rpg? Off hand, I would name Fallout 1&2, the Elder Scroll series, the Zork series, most of the Ultimas, and pretty much any game that lets you play who you want and how you want, ones that let you suddenly decide, that despite the long hard hours they have placed into writing that storyline, to just say, "to Hell with it, I'm making my own story." and be just as entertaining.
Fallout 1 and 2
Planescape; Torment
Awesome examples of pure RPG games. Games where you can choose how to procede with the story, and the choices you make actually effect the story.
Want a taste of religion? Lick a witch.
I think the OP got mixed up with the term RPG and MMORPG.
Diablo was a offline RPG with a few multiplayer functions. In that regards, it is a definitely a RPG.
It is not a mmorpg, where players would roleplay in a community perspective with each other, diablo roleplays in the perspective of the player as the hero of the story.
As whether Flagship studio is the RPG authority is another matter. For one, I personnally hated the fact that they created Hellgate instead of DIablo III, so I am inclined to feel that they don't quite know what the public really want from them in terms of RPGs.
If Diablo was a RPG then Baldur's Gate 1 was an adventure detective game.
REALITY CHECK
OP might be arguing to hell and back who is an authority on RPG.... anythings... One thing he has made perfectly clear though...
There might be many people in the world to claim the title "RPG authority"... He is not one of them.
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Anatomy of a Fanboi
This is you.
I humbly submit my theory that the classical application of the term "RPG" is incorrect for the majority of modern games. In order to qualify as an RPG today a game need only provide some very basic control over the character's development, a story to follow, and perhaps a basic item/consumable system.
Of course, RPG used to refer to multiplayer, deep, involved, complex games that had freedom of choice, quantized character abilities and probability based mechanics. However these qualities have been chipped away since the golden age of table-top RPGs. It probably began when we got solo gamebooks and text-based computer games, eliminating the multiplayer component, the depth (although some made up with pretty amazing stories), the complexity, and much of the freedom of choice.
Then came graphical video games such as Gauntlet. It was a hack and slash game in a fantasy setting that allowed you to choose your character from four fantasy archetypes, each with different attributes. It had potions, keys, food, hit points, magic, melee & ranged combat. Most interestingly, it brought back the multiplayer aspect by letting up to four people to play at the same time. Unfortunately its story was non-existent. I have never come across the arcade game but several console and computer versions were made.
Because of graphical limitations, every single RPG game up to the groundbreaking Dungeon Master could not be first person and real time. What you had instead was a tactical overhead view or a static 1st person view, and turn-based play. Dungeon Master changed all that, bringing back the immersion and complexity of traditional table-top gaming (I just played it last year and it is STILL a great game!). They went one step further and made magic something to be discovered and understood, as opposed to just cast at the touch of a button. But for all the success of Dungeon Master, the tactical top-down and isometric views didn't go away, nor did the simplified hack and slash Gauntlet gameplay. And soon, the explosion of console RPGs led to 100% scripted games that offered zero control over the story.
Somehow, somewhere along the way, the term RPG came to mean something vastly simplified compared to its original meaning. I see Diablo and "action RPGs" or "hack and slash RPGs" in general as the spawn of Gauntlet. They're not real RPGs to a purist. But they have some of the elements, often simplified, of RPGs. Diablo 2 in particular is not a serious offender, at least it offers all the basic staples of RPGs (including being multiplayer) except for the fact that a true RPG calculates events based on formulae, and can't be hack and slash - button mashing is not an RPG concept! And that's why they get called "action RPGs" or similar.
In short, what is and isn't an RPG really depends on your view. Personally I think if the label "RPG" were applied a little more strictly, games and gamers would benefit a lot - think deeper games, better immersion, smarter interfaces, etc. I mean, why should S.T.A.L.K.E.R. (a great game) be an FPS-RPG, when Jedi Outcast (an amazing game) is simply an FPS? Is it because the latter is older, or because it doesn't require the insane amount of item management? It's all pretty vague, so not really worth getting worked up about it.
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JULIE xx
LOL .. the OP has too much time on his hands.
"Action RPG" is just a name for a category of games. It is pretty much accepted usage. Wasting time debating a name is idiotic.
Word use changes all the time.
It's an RPG.
You go on quests, level up and talk to people while exploring a world of adventure.
Traditional, bod standard RPG.