Sure it's possible. Is it possible in war, given the direction mythci wants to take war? No.
So, people make their own quests, great idea. But two things that jump right away.
1) If the game adds its own artificial reward (like exp in your example) and if exp has even remote importance to characters, what's to stop me from makign a quest for you to bring me a boulder that is laying 2 steps away from me? You bring it to me, I toss it back, make that quest again... great pl
2) If a game does not assign any reward, and the only reward you get is what the player who made the quest is willing to give (ie. no exp in the game, skill based game) The the question becomes, if you needed a piece of metal, but couldn't get it yourself (because it's in a cave guarded by a big and evil dragon) can you really offer me a reward that will justify spending all the time required to get that piece of metal? Maybe, but not terribly likely unless the game has some direction. (ie, you can make an uber sword that will let me pwn noobs all day) But then, aren't you back to just grindign resources to get uber gear? not that different from grinding for uber gear is it? =p
Yes, a game like what you want can be made. War is not that kind of game. It doesn't make it a bad game, or even worse than the game you want, it just makes it different. So, accept that point, then decide if you still find it good enaugh to play, and if yes then stick around, if no, not much point of staying around explaining how the game is designed differently than what you'd like it to be It's not going to change.
Originally posted by evil13 Sure it's possible. Is it possible in war, given the direction mythci wants to take war? No. So, people make their own quests, great idea. But two things that jump right away. 1) If the game adds its own artificial reward (like exp in your example) and if exp has even remote importance to characters, what's to stop me from makign a quest for you to bring me a boulder that is laying 2 steps away from me? You bring it to me, I toss it back, make that quest again... great pl 2) If a game does not assign any reward, and the only reward you get is what the player who made the quest is willing to give (ie. no exp in the game, skill based game) The the question becomes, if you needed a piece of metal, but couldn't get it yourself (because it's in a cave guarded by a big and evil dragon) can you really offer me a reward that will justify spending all the time required to get that piece of metal? Maybe, but not terribly likely unless the game has some direction. (ie, you can make an uber sword that will let me pwn noobs all day) But then, aren't you back to just grindign resources to get uber gear? not that different from grinding for uber gear is it? =p
Yes, a game like what you want can be made. War is not that kind of game. It doesn't make it a bad game, or even worse than the game you want, it just makes it different. So, accept that point, then decide if you still find it good enaugh to play, and if yes then stick around, if no, not much point of staying around explaining how the game is designed differently than what you'd like it to be It's not going to change.
You're right. I don't think I'll play WAR.
And that's a good point about the quest-making system. There are people who will exploit anything. Like I said, I'm not a developer. But I'm sure there's some way to prevent exploiting, and there's some smart developer out there who could come up with a few simple system rules to avoid that kind of exploitation.
- Phos
AAH! A troll fire! Quick, pour some Kool-Aid on it!!!
A game with levels and with gear that becomes stronger the higher level you are (i.e. any real RPG) is always going to be considered, by some, to be a "grind fest."
It is unavoidable.
Story telling, environment, and varied game play will do much to destract players from "the grind," but in the end it's a matter of personal preference.
I would say that any person looking for a 100% "grind free" game should not be playing MMORPGs.
Having any sort of advancement system, be it skills or classes and levels, will contain elements many will call "a grind." The only solution is a character advancement free system. But then is it truly a RPG?
Even many modern FPS games like Halo 3 and Call of Duty 4 contain elements of a "grind."
In fact, the "grind" is defined by many as repetitive content. What game does NOT have repetitive content? It is a COMPLETELY subjective measure, and as such, the "grind" is masked by other completely subjective means.
The same is true for real life. These things will never change.
The KEY factor is entertainment. Why can you do, both in your virtual life and real life, to distract yourself from "the grind?"
That being said...
WAR aims to have enough variety in content to mask the "grind" then any other MMORPG in development.
The only way to completely remove the "grind" in a game is 100% player to player interaction. No skills other then what the controls allow you to do, no NPCs, no quests or objectives, no mobs, nothing. Just a world full of players, and the actions they choose dictated by the limitations of the control scheme and rule structure.
NO GAME. NONE. Not even EVE nor DF can claim this.
Why? Because this type of "game" is not a game at all, it's a simulation. A social simulation. Some people want that, obviously from reading sales statistics, more people play games because they want a "game."
You want a game with zero grind? You have to create one with an empty expanse of land, a control scheme that lets you manipulate anything in the game in nearly any possible way (based on rules), and no A.I. controlled anything (unless of course the AI is self aware which is currently impossible.)
And even THEN! Players will probably still complete the same repetitive tasks over and over and over again. Thus, creating a "grind."
It will likely be about as much as DAOC has. Torrential
Ack...noooo.... oh...you mean as much grind as DAOC has today? Whew, that's OK then. But I first thought you were referring to DAOC's grind back in the old days...say around the SI release..... the game had quite a bit of grind to it back then.... I recall grinding 'trees' in this one camp for weeks at a time to get my first level 50...
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Originally posted by heerobya A game with levels and with gear that becomes stronger the higher level you are (i.e. any real RPG) is always going to be considered, by some, to be a "grind fest." It is unavoidable. Story telling, environment, and varied game play will do much to destract players from "the grind," but in the end it's a matter of personal preference. I would say that any person looking for a 100% "grind free" game should not be playing MMORPGs. Having any sort of advancement system, be it skills or classes and levels, will contain elements many will call "a grind." The only solution is a character advancement free system. But then is it truly a RPG? Even many modern FPS games like Halo 3 and Call of Duty 4 contain elements of a "grind." In fact, the "grind" is defined by many as repetitive content. What game does NOT have repetitive content? It is a COMPLETELY subjective measure, and as such, the "grind" is masked by other completely subjective means. The same is true for real life. These things will never change. The KEY factor is entertainment. Why can you do, both in your virtual life and real life, to distract yourself from "the grind?" That being said... WAR aims to have enough variety in content to mask the "grind" then any other MMORPG in development. The only way to completely remove the "grind" in a game is 100% player to player interaction. No skills other then what the controls allow you to do, no NPCs, no quests or objectives, no mobs, nothing. Just a world full of players, and the actions they choose dictated by the limitations of the control scheme and rule structure. NO GAME. NONE. Not even EVE nor DF can claim this. Why? Because this type of "game" is not a game at all, it's a simulation. A social simulation. Some people want that, obviously from reading sales statistics, more people play games because they want a "game." You want a game with zero grind? You have to create one with an empty expanse of land, a control scheme that lets you manipulate anything in the game in nearly any possible way (based on rules), and no A.I. controlled anything (unless of course the AI is self aware which is currently impossible.) And even THEN! Players will probably still complete the same repetitive tasks over and over and over again. Thus, creating a "grind."
Yeah, you're right. I think when I saw that video it just put a bad taste in my mouth and gave me horrible flashbacks to WoW. I just read another thread by a guy who just quit GW. He ranted for a while because there is NO grinding in that game, and it became boring very quickly.
I think maybe I take it for granted that I just play these games but don't actually develop them.
But I think back to when I played UO. There was little-to-no grinding (except when I wanted to learn how to tame animals). UO was really successful though, because it was a total sandbox. Quests weren't necessary to keep people interested. People did whatever they wanted to do. And there were almost no limitations. We could kill anyone we wanted to. We could attack miners in the mountains and steal their mules full of ore, or jump people on the main roads, or go to a dragon's lair and help random strangers slay the dragon (it wasn't instanced). It was a SANDBOX.
Anyways, thanks for the responses. I changed a little bit of how I view quest grinding. But overall, I still think grinding is just a substitute for a good sandbox with good game design, good rulesets, and interesting vast worlds.
- Phos
AAH! A troll fire! Quick, pour some Kool-Aid on it!!!
UO was successful because it was the first, and at the time only, graphical mmog. Weather or not game mechanics used in uo (skill based, sand box, ffa pvp) had anything to do with its success we'll never know, however I am willing to bet the answer is no
It was a good, great game of course, but would those ideas work in todays market? Ffa pvp where you lose all your loot on death (granted, in uo loot wasn't worth much to begin with) that alone will turn away so many people that such an mmo would at best be a niche game.
UO not a grind? Are you serious? That was one of the hardest games to level up your skills in. Getting from 80-100% in any skill was very, very hard pre-trammel.
I started the game as a very casual gamer, as I got more into it I eventually turned into a hardcore UO addict. I played for over 1 year and didn't have any skills maxed, then I really got into it and it turned into a grind for me.
I don't remember how many thousands of reagents I burned through to get 100% Magery. Or how many blade (things) were summoned to get 100% Magic Resist... during the time that it was broken. How many hours I spent in front of the polar bears trapped in my house to max out the Swords skill. Not to mention the fact that skills decayed over time if not being used & you could only have 7 100% skills and if you started to raise another skill, even just a little, you lost some % points in one of your GM skills. I remember many times people placing fires down around the Brittan bank so that people's camping skill started to go up, forcing them to spend another 20+ hours grinding (insert various skill here) to get back to GM level.
And don't even get me started on trade skills. There was a reason that there were only a handful of GM smiths per server, because it took MONTHS of non-stop grinding to get to 100%.
Another grind part of the game, gaining gold. Gold was very hard to come by pre-trammel. My friends and I would spend hours grinding ogres to get money.
Maybe you and I played two different versions of UO. The one I played had a HUGE grind in it. Again, that was pre-trammel. Maybe everything got easier after that horrible update.
Don't get me wrong. UO is still, in my opinion, the best MMO game that was ever released. But I'm also not going to kid myself into thinking that the game was not a grind.
Also, whoever said GW was not a grind must have played a different game then I did. I would personally consider GW a grind just as much as WoW.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
We already know it'll be entirely possible to max-out just from RVRing. Now, the definition of a grind is to perform a monotnous task over and over again for XP. PvP/RvR by its very nature isn't repetitive, therefore I can't see how PvPing up to max would be considered a grind.
Of course, if you choose to fight mobs up to max then yes, it probably would be a grind. But it'd be your fault.
As for UO not being a grind - I can see where you're coming from. It was technically a grind (in 4 years of play I only managed to get 1 char to 6xgm, none to 7x), but it never *felt* like a grind. Even standing there training on a summoned earth elemental outside Moonglow gates for hours on end was actually a massive amount of fun and *never* felt laborious.
I think your definition of grindfest is severely flawed. Lineage 2 and many korean mmos = Kill endlessly with almost no quests... really there are no quests you just kill and level. That is a grindfest. Doing quests is a kind of grind but there are extra awards to the killing, and they mix in mini stories. If you didn't have fun in so many games until level 30 then what the hell were you playing for? I never played a game if it wasn't fun in the first few levels. WoW is hardly a grindfest of an MMO when compared to the market. What exactly are you looking for?? Give an example or something..
This game sounds like the least amount of grind in a game to date. Considering you can experience the Warhammer story which is pretty cool, or PVP your brain out and either way you level while doing it... Please don't say EVE either.. That game has the biggest grind of anything i've ever played. Just because it's hidden doesn't mean there isn't a grind. The squig quest you are talking about.. if you researched it you would understand this quest line is one of the coolest things to be implemented in an MMO to date. I am not even a big follower of WAR either. I feel like the MMO industry might not be for you for another 10 or 20 years bud. Sorry man.
Nearly every RPG made is based on the "character advancement" model.
You start low and slowly (or quickly) work your character up to higher levels, higher skills, more this, more that. This is standard and, for the most part, many people enjoy advancing their character through time and effort. In some regards this mirrors the "game of life" in which one grows and matures.
If the character advancement is fun, then you will hardly notice the grind.
If it's not fun, then the game for sure will feel like a boring "grindfest."
What may make WAR not feel like a boring grindfest is one simple thing:
Comments
Sure it's possible. Is it possible in war, given the direction mythci wants to take war? No.
So, people make their own quests, great idea. But two things that jump right away.
1) If the game adds its own artificial reward (like exp in your example) and if exp has even remote importance to characters, what's to stop me from makign a quest for you to bring me a boulder that is laying 2 steps away from me? You bring it to me, I toss it back, make that quest again... great pl
2) If a game does not assign any reward, and the only reward you get is what the player who made the quest is willing to give (ie. no exp in the game, skill based game) The the question becomes, if you needed a piece of metal, but couldn't get it yourself (because it's in a cave guarded by a big and evil dragon) can you really offer me a reward that will justify spending all the time required to get that piece of metal? Maybe, but not terribly likely unless the game has some direction. (ie, you can make an uber sword that will let me pwn noobs all day) But then, aren't you back to just grindign resources to get uber gear? not that different from grinding for uber gear is it? =p
Yes, a game like what you want can be made. War is not that kind of game. It doesn't make it a bad game, or even worse than the game you want, it just makes it different. So, accept that point, then decide if you still find it good enaugh to play, and if yes then stick around, if no, not much point of staying around explaining how the game is designed differently than what you'd like it to be
It's not going to change.
You're right. I don't think I'll play WAR.
And that's a good point about the quest-making system. There are people who will exploit anything. Like I said, I'm not a developer. But I'm sure there's some way to prevent exploiting, and there's some smart developer out there who could come up with a few simple system rules to avoid that kind of exploitation.
- Phos
A game with levels and with gear that becomes stronger the higher level you are (i.e. any real RPG) is always going to be considered, by some, to be a "grind fest."
It is unavoidable.
Story telling, environment, and varied game play will do much to destract players from "the grind," but in the end it's a matter of personal preference.
I would say that any person looking for a 100% "grind free" game should not be playing MMORPGs.
Having any sort of advancement system, be it skills or classes and levels, will contain elements many will call "a grind." The only solution is a character advancement free system. But then is it truly a RPG?
Even many modern FPS games like Halo 3 and Call of Duty 4 contain elements of a "grind."
In fact, the "grind" is defined by many as repetitive content. What game does NOT have repetitive content? It is a COMPLETELY subjective measure, and as such, the "grind" is masked by other completely subjective means.
The same is true for real life. These things will never change.
The KEY factor is entertainment. Why can you do, both in your virtual life and real life, to distract yourself from "the grind?"
That being said...
WAR aims to have enough variety in content to mask the "grind" then any other MMORPG in development.
The only way to completely remove the "grind" in a game is 100% player to player interaction. No skills other then what the controls allow you to do, no NPCs, no quests or objectives, no mobs, nothing. Just a world full of players, and the actions they choose dictated by the limitations of the control scheme and rule structure.
NO GAME. NONE. Not even EVE nor DF can claim this.
Why? Because this type of "game" is not a game at all, it's a simulation. A social simulation. Some people want that, obviously from reading sales statistics, more people play games because they want a "game."
You want a game with zero grind? You have to create one with an empty expanse of land, a control scheme that lets you manipulate anything in the game in nearly any possible way (based on rules), and no A.I. controlled anything (unless of course the AI is self aware which is currently impossible.)
And even THEN! Players will probably still complete the same repetitive tasks over and over and over again. Thus, creating a "grind."
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Yeah, you're right. I think when I saw that video it just put a bad taste in my mouth and gave me horrible flashbacks to WoW. I just read another thread by a guy who just quit GW. He ranted for a while because there is NO grinding in that game, and it became boring very quickly.
I think maybe I take it for granted that I just play these games but don't actually develop them.
But I think back to when I played UO. There was little-to-no grinding (except when I wanted to learn how to tame animals). UO was really successful though, because it was a total sandbox. Quests weren't necessary to keep people interested. People did whatever they wanted to do. And there were almost no limitations. We could kill anyone we wanted to. We could attack miners in the mountains and steal their mules full of ore, or jump people on the main roads, or go to a dragon's lair and help random strangers slay the dragon (it wasn't instanced). It was a SANDBOX.
Anyways, thanks for the responses. I changed a little bit of how I view quest grinding. But overall, I still think grinding is just a substitute for a good sandbox with good game design, good rulesets, and interesting vast worlds.
- Phos
Grind or be grinded :P
well in PvP zones atleast.
UO was successful because it was the first, and at the time only, graphical mmog. Weather or not game mechanics used in uo (skill based, sand box, ffa pvp) had anything to do with its success we'll never know, however I am willing to bet the answer is no
It was a good, great game of course, but would those ideas work in todays market? Ffa pvp where you lose all your loot on death (granted, in uo loot wasn't worth much to begin with) that alone will turn away so many people that such an mmo would at best be a niche game.
UO not a grind? Are you serious? That was one of the hardest games to level up your skills in. Getting from 80-100% in any skill was very, very hard pre-trammel.
I started the game as a very casual gamer, as I got more into it I eventually turned into a hardcore UO addict. I played for over 1 year and didn't have any skills maxed, then I really got into it and it turned into a grind for me.
I don't remember how many thousands of reagents I burned through to get 100% Magery. Or how many blade (things) were summoned to get 100% Magic Resist... during the time that it was broken. How many hours I spent in front of the polar bears trapped in my house to max out the Swords skill. Not to mention the fact that skills decayed over time if not being used & you could only have 7 100% skills and if you started to raise another skill, even just a little, you lost some % points in one of your GM skills. I remember many times people placing fires down around the Brittan bank so that people's camping skill started to go up, forcing them to spend another 20+ hours grinding (insert various skill here) to get back to GM level.
And don't even get me started on trade skills. There was a reason that there were only a handful of GM smiths per server, because it took MONTHS of non-stop grinding to get to 100%.
Another grind part of the game, gaining gold. Gold was very hard to come by pre-trammel. My friends and I would spend hours grinding ogres to get money.
Maybe you and I played two different versions of UO. The one I played had a HUGE grind in it. Again, that was pre-trammel. Maybe everything got easier after that horrible update.
Don't get me wrong. UO is still, in my opinion, the best MMO game that was ever released. But I'm also not going to kid myself into thinking that the game was not a grind.
Also, whoever said GW was not a grind must have played a different game then I did. I would personally consider GW a grind just as much as WoW.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
I don't think so.
We already know it'll be entirely possible to max-out just from RVRing. Now, the definition of a grind is to perform a monotnous task over and over again for XP. PvP/RvR by its very nature isn't repetitive, therefore I can't see how PvPing up to max would be considered a grind.
Of course, if you choose to fight mobs up to max then yes, it probably would be a grind. But it'd be your fault.
As for UO not being a grind - I can see where you're coming from. It was technically a grind (in 4 years of play I only managed to get 1 char to 6xgm, none to 7x), but it never *felt* like a grind. Even standing there training on a summoned earth elemental outside Moonglow gates for hours on end was actually a massive amount of fun and *never* felt laborious.
Arg, memories of UO flooding back....
I think your definition of grindfest is severely flawed. Lineage 2 and many korean mmos = Kill endlessly with almost no quests... really there are no quests you just kill and level. That is a grindfest. Doing quests is a kind of grind but there are extra awards to the killing, and they mix in mini stories. If you didn't have fun in so many games until level 30 then what the hell were you playing for? I never played a game if it wasn't fun in the first few levels. WoW is hardly a grindfest of an MMO when compared to the market. What exactly are you looking for?? Give an example or something..
This game sounds like the least amount of grind in a game to date. Considering you can experience the Warhammer story which is pretty cool, or PVP your brain out and either way you level while doing it... Please don't say EVE either.. That game has the biggest grind of anything i've ever played. Just because it's hidden doesn't mean there isn't a grind. The squig quest you are talking about.. if you researched it you would understand this quest line is one of the coolest things to be implemented in an MMO to date. I am not even a big follower of WAR either. I feel like the MMO industry might not be for you for another 10 or 20 years bud. Sorry man.
Nearly every RPG made is based on the "character advancement" model.
You start low and slowly (or quickly) work your character up to higher levels, higher skills, more this, more that. This is standard and, for the most part, many people enjoy advancing their character through time and effort. In some regards this mirrors the "game of life" in which one grows and matures.
If the character advancement is fun, then you will hardly notice the grind.
If it's not fun, then the game for sure will feel like a boring "grindfest."
What may make WAR not feel like a boring grindfest is one simple thing:
As you advance ... you get to kill other players.
~ Ancient Membership ~