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Why would a carebear play this?
dsebutchr
Member Posts: 245
Okay. First let me say I love PVP in the right amounts and doses. If I can find a good fair game where each side has a chance nothing is more fun that pounding away at other players hoping to win the day with my team or squad.
That said...Why would a carebear play this game?
I am willing to admit that PVP players make up an incredibly small number of the population of successful MMO's today. If this game does not give the PVE centric players something MASSIVE and VERY soon they will have absolutely no reason to pay 50 bucks plus I'm assuming another 15 bucks a month to bother with this game.
What this means is that it will amount to the same kind of population that DAoC has which is dismal at best. Same people same servers same ole crap ad nauseum.
So again, why would a carebear...the largest population of players and the player base that determines a game's success, why would they play this?
Honestly curious...
Comments
Not that I am expecting or asking for wow, by any means, please god, not wow, but...The Warhammer series is well known for it's pvp aspects as well as it's player vs AI. Warcraft has the same aspect in earlier releases. In both games, once the player v computer became old, you could always log online and experience the game from another person's viewpoint by engaging them in a "duel" of sort. I still find it strange trying to incorporate these games into a MMO standpoint. It seems blizzard has been very successful in this aspect, and I highly expect WAR to hit a similar nerve. My overriding question is how do they expect to run established systems in an MMO, in Blizzard's respect the abandoned all systems whole hog, and I don't see WAR changing pace on this subject. It will be interesting, but my guess (I am not a beta player) is that WAR will do a similar abandon of it's skin in order to appeal to a mass of consumers, you know, the whole single character identity and all...
Played (more than a month): SWG, Second Life, Tabula Rasa, Lineage 2, Everquest 2, EvE, MxO, Ryzom.
Tried: WoW, Shadowbane, Anarchy Online, Everquest, WWII Online, Planetside
Beta: Lotro, Tabula Rasa, WAR.
Taken from the interview with James Nichols earlier this week....
Question: In the update letter, Jacobs also mentions changes to inprove both RvR and "a great play experience for those that do not choose to engage in RvR 24/7". How do you hope to capture the minds of the PvE crowd without deviating from the primary focus of the game?
James Nichols: The intention from the very beginning of the project was to present a fully-realized PvE experience in addition to the RvR campaign. In that regard, PvE IS one of the primary focuses of the game. As to how we've engaged that challenge, we've made a concerted effort to treat the PvE experience as a true hero's narrative. The game literally plays as one, huge story set against the backdrop of the greater Realm war. PvE content is broken up into chapters and the events that take place throughout those chapters tell the player's ongoing story. Problems arise - some are resolved quickly, others seem to be settled, but then crop back up later in another form - and all throughout you're experiencing a narrative that immerses you in the lore of Warhammer and in your own character's development.
That aside, I do believe there are more PVPers out there than you might think. Most modern mmorpgs incorporate both aspects (PVE and PVP) within the same system. While the hardcore PvPers may be limited, ( I'd say maybe 20% of the player base) if you factor in all kinds of PvPers from hardcore to casual (those who like PVE and PVP) it would probably be in the 50%-75% range. Leaving 25% as the hardcore carebear players who only PVE. Most people nowadays want a mix of both.
I don't know about you, but I think DAOC had a moderately strong player base. There were always plenty of people to pvp and group with back in its prime.
Your comment on DAoC was way off the mark though, back before WoW brought the mmo world to the entire planet, you could often find 80 v 80 battles for relics. Now, imagine the millions of people WoW has brought into the gaming industry. 10 times what nearly any other game has ever had in subscriptions, imagine 300 v 300 on the same map.
Only the DAoC players know what is truly in store for WAR. People claim to say it's just going to be a big AV. Hah. A big AV that pits players' skill against each other with huge siege weapons and keep defense. Large bloodbath types of violence. Your common joe WoW'er thinks he knows what is to come. He knows nothing. A place where skill, tactics and smarts are the trump card. Gear will be good, but it won't win a battle outright.
My fondest memories were defending milegates. Large armies storming through gates, clashing steel and magic all around you, this is a real epic battle. I will promise, the first time joe WoW'er experiences the rush that some of us know so well, he'll never go back to.. what was that game called?
Exactly.
I just got pumped up typing this..
Understand, the use of the term "CareBear" is thrown around a lot yet it is often ill defined. Carebear is most often called when one person feels another had it easier because they didnt PvP as much. However, just because they didnt play on a PvP server, doesnt mean they dont like PvP.
If by your definition CAREBEAR means exclusive PVE..then yes, they would not like it. However, there is a lot in WAR that will appeal to many players.
Torrential
Torrential: DAOC (Pendragon)
Awned: World of Warcraft (Lothar)
Torren: Warhammer Online (Praag)
The number one reason a real carebear (somebody who shuns PvP) would play this game is for the shear newness of it all. Most people who only play the PvE aspect of a game get to max lvl and tap out very quickly there after. After max lvl is reached your only option is to either raid which is somewhat of a second job, or start a new toon. Granted there is a bit of end-game content in most MMO's that doesn't require a large group, but a most MMO's really do focus on the PvP. Take WOW, if you decide that you don't have 12 hours a day to raid once you hit 70 than your most likely off to PvP. For the carebears out there who this doesn't appeal to, they get bored and stop playing until something new comes along (or they start alts). The mere fact that there are TWENTY FOUR completely different character classes will have most PvE type players drooling at the mouth. Not to mention the 6 different paths/story's to take to your races capitol. Any casual PvE player will have massive amounts of content to explore prior to getting bored with WAR.
Please take this opportunity to watch the Podcasts on the WAR website. It is clearly stated in the video (you don't even have to read) that "It is quite possible for any player to get to the tier four content without any RvR interaction". Hopefully some of the posts on this thread fead your curiosity, if not my post than another.
I think if they were to come through on the whole plan of having PvE players able to support the war efforts of their race/faction through PvE means (quests or have some objectives held by dogs of war, the NPC factions) it would add a lot of value to the game for these players. Hopefully they do some good things for the PvE side of things to keep it fresh without the need of near-impossible to reach content and/or rediculous time sinks.
So we can burn, maim, kill, loot, plunder, drink, and cry WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGHHHHHH all the while of course.
Yes, pvp populations makes up a very small part of total mmo player base.. what's with wow having half of their servers pvp and all. Not to say that there is actually much pvp on the pvp servers, or that it's any more important there than on the pve servers. But people do, for some strange reason, click "pvp server" instead of pve, in fact, they do it so much that wow has abotu half of their servers pvp
Daoc has dismall population now, as a very old game compared to newer games (or mostly wow) Back when it was released (or 1-2 years after) it had as many as 200k subs and was second largest mmo, second only to eq1 for a while (I think untill swg came out, but I could be wrong)
So, seeing how mythic is basically doing the same thign with war to wow as they did with daoc to eq (it's quite funny actually, you just have to look back at the mmo scene when daoc released and compare it to war's =p) if they were to get half the numbers wow has in us/europe, you are looking at 1-1.5millions of subs. Seems to be good enaugh and I am sure mythic won't complain
Carebears, much like pvp'ers, have no idea what they want anyway. Some want uber raids (like wow) but then they claim raids suck.. some want to be able to solo everything, some want forced grouping + a kick in the nuts when you die. etc. etc. Almost as hard to appeal to carebears as it is to pvp fans.
In the end, war will provide a decent amount of fun pve content, not long lasting, but fun, harcore pve raiders will of course get bored and leave (if they even join in the first place) casual players should have fun with that for a while, and might get into pvp
And if not.. well, what do casual carebears do in wow? In mean, majority of wow's players do not raid, so what do they do? I am sure they can do somethign at least as fun in war =p
The problem with PvP is that it's often a sitaution of being either pointless... or gankerfest annoying.
PVP servers in WoW pre-BC... you just TRY and level in STV for example...
WAR looks to take the DAoC tradition of meaningful PvP with little or no Ganking to worry about. That will draw in a lot of people that have a negative view of PVP. Not everyone, but I was the biggest carebear you ever met till I played DAoC back in the day
Always change your signature.
I'm still weary on the potential boredom/powerlessness of taking a capitol city and getting thrown out after a while no matter what due to mechanics, the best incentive to actually doing it heard of so far being ... items and gear.
I just fear that after running into the capitol for the 6th time or something, knowing i'll be pushed back to do it all over again is just gonna wear me down. I just don't see the long term appeal in it yet.
Why did people roam emain? Or camp milegates for that matter? I mean, there was no reward assocciated with camping mile gates, yet people did it. Because it was fun
If fights around/inside capitol city are fun, people will try to push for it. If it's not.. well, hopefully mythic will change it so it is.
Also, it's not like you go to some portal, zone in and all of a sudden you are in a capitol siege getting bored. It could take months for one side to push all the way to a capitol, or it could never even happen =p if the sides are equally matched. So, I kind of doubt anyone is going to get bored doing capitol sieges under one year unless you ither play on completely lopsided server population wise, or the sieges are so badly done that you are bored after you did it once.
I mean, there are 6 different cities to have siege in, so, that's 6 times you could do capitol sieges (defendign and attacking) before you even see the same capitol twice.
In the end though, it's all about fun
if it's fun, nothign else matters, if it's not.. well, nothign else matters as well, untill it is changed to be fun 
Well, as already stated, it's possible that 1 capitol city siege could take a very, very long time to happen, or not at all. Let alone do it 6 times in a short enough period of time to be bored with it.
Also, even if you did get bored with it, then not doing the capitol city push is going to allow the opposing realm to gain ground going toward your capitol city. Hopefully this will give you enough incentive & you have built enough "Realm Pride" by that point to not want this to happen!
The thing that makes the WAR Realm setup interesting is that it's not just Order vs. Destruction. What I mean is if the Greenskins are handing it to the Dwarves, the Greenskin players can put a Realm wide call out saying "Ugk, we needs choppas!" Then the Chaos and the Dark Elves can rush over and push the Dwarves back out of the Greenskin area.
So you have allies that land's are not being directly effected by the fight with your opposing realm, but they also have their own opposing realms to worry about. It will make for some interesting scenarios if all of Destruction can become organized and set up a flanking manuver where they whittle down one Realm, lets say Empire, until all 3 opposing Realms are focused on that section of the game world. Then switch a big force over to attack, say, the Dwarves. Attempting to conquer the unguarded Dwarven lands.
If the Dwarves leave the defense of then the Empire may fall, but if they don't, then the Dwarven lands may fall. I think it will be interesting to say the least.
Also if both Order and Destruction are unorganized, then a city may never fall.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
PvP is not the only content in War, if you bothered to do any research into what the game is about and allegedly going to offer you would'nt have asked a question thats already been answered in a hundred different ways ie forums, podcasts, videos, news release, news letter.
<Mod edit>
I'm still weary on the potential boredom/powerlessness of taking a capitol city and getting thrown out after a while no matter what due to mechanics, the best incentive to actually doing it heard of so far being ... items and gear.
I just fear that after running into the capitol for the 6th time or something, knowing i'll be pushed back to do it all over again is just gonna wear me down. I just don't see the long term appeal in it yet.
No I don't think boredom comes that way. Why would people push the tennis across the court over the net, knowing that the tennis will be pushed back within a second? FUN. Tennis is fun for the player.During DAoC, you can hold the enemy relic for eternity. Some keeps kept by the major guilds of the other realm can be captured and held for as long as you can manage to beat off the other realm's comeback attempts. Its the big fight itself (the confusions too) as much as the fame of holding an enemy keep that gives the most fun. Hell, the biggest fights took place at the frontier plains when 2 zergs meet, and well there is no keep or capitol city to take, just a lot of people to kill, and a lot of people trying to kill you.
As for the carebear argument, well why use the word carebear for PVErs? Are you trying to provoke them?
PVE has as much fun in DAoC as PVP. In a game in which people of the same realm feel a strong bond of solidarity (working together against another realm), the sense of brotherhood is high during the levelling stages. Crafters, resources collectors, guildies, realm-mates. People help each other readily during PVE, fight for loot is far less a concern and the factor of fun in cooperation looms large. In WoW you hate the guy who won the roll, sometimes so intensely that you start verbal wars. In DAoC loot is seldom an issue, most of the loots are immediately broken down into mats after the player goes to town (not before b/c the mats are heavier than the item, stupid I say).
Why would I, a carebear by your standard, play WAR? First, if its like DAoC, its fun. The PVE part will be fun and generally more so than normal PVE (EQs or WoW). Second, the zergs or RVRs are fun too, b/c of the fact that it matches the PVE. WE, WE, WE, work together in PVE b/c we want the largest number of lvl 50s available to go out to scout, infiltrate, hold key routes and zerg. PVE and RVR is one integrated gameplay in DAoC. If only WAR recaptures the spirit, or better still, enhances it.
Instead of doing that you posted something that's obviously trolling, and then you call the OP a troll for having a legitimate concern that he didn't feel he had the necessary time and/or skills to find on his own.
Thanks for the comments.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
Well, as already stated, it's possible that 1 capitol city siege could take a very, very long time to happen, or not at all. Let alone do it 6 times in a short enough period of time to be bored with it.
Also, even if you did get bored with it, then not doing the capitol city push is going to allow the opposing realm to gain ground going toward your capitol city. Hopefully this will give you enough incentive & you have built enough "Realm Pride" by that point to not want this to happen!
The thing that makes the WAR Realm setup interesting is that it's not just Order vs. Destruction. What I mean is if the Greenskins are handing it to the Dwarves, the Greenskin players can put a Realm wide call out saying "Ugk, we needs choppas!" Then the Chaos and the Dark Elves can rush over and push the Dwarves back out of the Greenskin area.
So you have allies that land's are not being directly effected by the fight with your opposing realm, but they also have their own opposing realms to worry about. It will make for some interesting scenarios if all of Destruction can become organized and set up a flanking manuver where they whittle down one Realm, lets say Empire, until all 3 opposing Realms are focused on that section of the game world. Then switch a big force over to attack, say, the Dwarves. Attempting to conquer the unguarded Dwarven lands.
If the Dwarves leave the defense of then the Empire may fall, but if they don't, then the Dwarven lands may fall. I think it will be interesting to say the least.
Also if both Order and Destruction are unorganized, then a city may never fall.
We shall see ^^ We obviously look at this game differently than I do ^^
You see 3 realms waging their own war and helping the others when necessary where I just see 3 different battlefronts with a mass of people (combined of the 3 races) go whereever they want regardless of their own homefront/enemyfront.
Realm pride for me vanished long ago in Daoc when the relics settled in and it became obvious taking keeps for your realm was either futile or pointless especially since 90% of the people merely did it to run into DF so they could grind out in the best spot around not to mention that it might just as well happen a keep you took got taken back behind you while it was undefended again to do it all over again.
Yes I'm jaded ^^ Yes I'm open to be proven wrong ^^ Yes I'm not expecting to be proven wrong by this game just yet ^^
I don't think you fully understand the mechanics of the sieges. When you sack someone's city you do not 'get pushed out' after a time. Instead, you get to revel in your victory for a time and the losing side loses the functions of their capitol city for a time. Then, the battle RESETS to 0 and you start the war again in all the associated zones. All the war points reset to 0. Some battlegrounds close up while others that had been closed will reopen. It will be like the war never happened.
If you have sacked a city then you have WON. When you win something it is time to reset stuff to 0 and see if you can win again.
If they did not do this - if they didn't reset things - it would get boring really fast.
I don't think you fully understand the mechanics of the sieges. When you sack someone's city you do not 'get pushed out' after a time. Instead, you get to revel in your victory for a time and the losing side loses the functions of their capitol city for a time. Then, the battle RESETS to 0 and you start the war again in all the associated zones. All the war points reset to 0. Some battlegrounds close up while others that had been closed will reopen. It will be like the war never happened.
If you have sacked a city then you have WON. When you win something it is time to reset stuff to 0 and see if you can win again.
If they did not do this - if they didn't reset things - it would get boring really fast.
You're right, I didn't understand exactly how the reset would happen, this is actually worse than I imagined :E
What? "Resets to zero" where the heck did you get that? And I quote "Systems will be in place that will prevent capitol cities from being held indefinately". If you were to further research this a bit you would find that they are not intending to simply "Reset" the city. As has been recently explained by the Devs the city gaurds are going to become progressively stronger in order to assist the defenders in taking back their city. They have also stated that spawn points will be pushed back after a time so that the attackers are not always Re-poping within their enemy's walls.
I suppose that you could call this a "Reset" of sorts but it is going to be a long a slow process, especially since there is going to be additional content within your enemy city. The Devs have stated multiple times that there is going to be additional quests for you to do once you have sacked your enemy city. Officially nobody knows exactly how all of this is going to pan out but to say that the system is just going to magically pop back to zero is a gross generaliztion of what the Devs have been promoting.
What? "Resets to zero" where the heck did you get that? And I quote "Systems will be in place that will prevent capitol cities from being held indefinately". If you were to further research this a bit you would find that they are not intending to simply "Reset" the city. As has been recently explained by the Devs the city gaurds are going to become progressively stronger in order to assist the defenders in taking back their city. They have also stated that spawn points will be pushed back after a time so that the attackers are not always Re-poping within their enemy's walls.
I suppose that you could call this a "Reset" of sorts but it is going to be a long a slow process, especially since there is going to be additional content within your enemy city. The Devs have stated multiple times that there is going to be additional quests for you to do once you have sacked your enemy city. Officially nobody knows exactly how all of this is going to pan out but to say that the system is just going to magically pop back to zero is a gross generaliztion of what the Devs have been promoting.
he is right, they also said that special quest givers and special missions would appear only in the captured capital city of an ennemy race. So there is not only a "FUN" factor in capturing enemy city, but a "material" matter too. Maybe not uber gear, but an insigna, a title or such that tell peoples that you were part of the ransaking of an ennemy city.
Black Gorath Bris'Elfes
G
If there is no full looting and no eventual perma death, everyone playing is a carebear, just for the record.
Perma-death and full looting is called "real life" ... go outside and play, it's free.
Black Gorath Bris'Elfes
G
What? "Resets to zero" where the heck did you get that? And I quote "Systems will be in place that will prevent capitol cities from being held indefinately". If you were to further research this a bit you would find that they are not intending to simply "Reset" the city. As has been recently explained by the Devs the city gaurds are going to become progressively stronger in order to assist the defenders in taking back their city. They have also stated that spawn points will be pushed back after a time so that the attackers are not always Re-poping within their enemy's walls.
I suppose that you could call this a "Reset" of sorts but it is going to be a long a slow process, especially since there is going to be additional content within your enemy city. The Devs have stated multiple times that there is going to be additional quests for you to do once you have sacked your enemy city. Officially nobody knows exactly how all of this is going to pan out but to say that the system is just going to magically pop back to zero is a gross generaliztion of what the Devs have been promoting.
Actually, it is exactly what they have been saying. Watch the Podcast that goes into detail about how the various tiers interact with one another (Pod Cast #3). Scroll towards the end of the video where Josh is discussing the sacking of a city. There he says:
"You will not be able to hold onto your enemy's city indefinitely. Systems will be in place that will eventually wrest control of the cities back to their rightful owners. When this happens the conflict will begin again."
The illustration also shows the 4th tier resetting back to a neutral point in which neither side controls the central zone (Thunder Mountain in the case of the Greenskiin/Dwarf area.
Keep in mind that this only effect tier 4 itself. The other tier battles continue on as they were. There would be no real point to resetting the lower tiers to 0 as well since you can lose control of a lower tier but still sack your enemy's capitol.
It is not a gross generalization - it is precisely what has been said both in the pod cast and at a number of shows.
Unerstood and point well made. In the podcast it does show an illustration of the conflict resetting back into the neutral control zone. However it is my personal understanding that it is not going to be an instantanious event, but rather a battle over time where the enemy is actually PUSHED out of the city. Although I the actual mechanics of this will not be publicly known until the release date, I just can't see an automatic reset happening while you are still in complete control of a hostile capitol
Lol just pure lol. Not in this day and age is that true.
Anyway tbh I don't want to see that many carebears in the game. Too much of a pve drive's gonna have a negative effect on the pvp balance.
One good thing is despite the dreadful news that there's gonna be plenty of PvE action in the game - the best gear still comes from pvp and sieging the capitals.