Sandbox all the way. I don't know what developers (in general) are thinking, but they sure as hell are screwing up the MMO genre royally. I think SWG was a great example of what a game should be.....this is before SOE FUBARed it.
I think the djurability of Eve Online, and to a lesser extent Ryzom do show that a sandbox MMORPG can be both succesful and long lasting. So definitly yes, it can be done Torrential
Actually EVE did and still does to a lesser extent have storyline based quest/missions. That is to say, it is a Hybrid, not a pure sand box.
Which does explain why it is still around, had it been a pure sandbox the game would have died the first year.
Hybrid or open ended games are the way to go. Sandbox in that you are able to do almost anything but with a story line. All of the patches to EVE were based on story events that happend in EVE. Though a large part of the players beleve that all they should do is go out and pewpewpew other people there is a story line that the game has followed from day one. Yes CCP has lost the path several times but thats a diffrent issue, the upcomming race wars will get the game back on track with the story line.
If swg precu was available I'd still be playing. I did take some time off precu SWG to try quest driven games and they were ok. But it does get boring and I find myself soloing a lot more in quest type games than in the sandbox games.
Sometimes it seems like quests separate people. You could be the same level as someone, but they are on a different quest, and it's a quest chain. In the sandbox game it seemed like we used to hang out more together, and the sense of community was infinitely greater.
So I'd have to say sandbox. Although having some quests is great too.
I agree. What SOE and Nancy Macintyre of LA never got was that it could actually be fun just to log on, get into yoour ship and fly over to Dathomir or Lok, and then get into your AV21 to check out your harvesters in one long circuit, avoiding the killer mobs. Today's MMO desidgners don't seem to understand 'Kill, get treasure, repeat' is a surefire receipe for a limted game that will not appeal to a maturer and, by corollary, richer subsriber.
I voted sandbox as well, but prefer quest lines system to make the game less boring of a grind. I designed a concept game with a sandbox template, with quest lines to give the rpg effect. However being the state I am in, it is hard to find investors who know much about the time frame, and resources it takes to make a game of this size.
Sandbox game subs last longer than linear. However linear gains more subs due to the demand of players that find sandbox style boring because there is no direction in which the game goes, because of it being open ended. The fact of it is more sandbox games are not usually as threaten by other games, becaused there isn't as many sandbox competitors compared to linear games, and advent fans of sandbox games will not usually stray to linear.
If developing companies release a very well designed sandbox, with a player base encomony, and quest related rpg you find a larger fan base prefer to play a game as such compared to either or.
Yep, a good sandbox style game could most definitively keep my subscription. I do not want someone telling where to go, what to do, how to do it. I am definitively tired of leveling and only having relatively few choices what my character can do... if i want an archer mage then by god let me play one (sry, i miss 7x archer mage from UO). And I think if a lot of people who like linear style games would get the chance to play a good sandbox style game, they would absolutely love it. Player ran meetings where if you chose and have proven yourself worthy of being listened to you can actually impact the game play on a server. Open PvP warfare where you are actually fighting for something, like property, resources, or in-game fame and not just for sake of being #1 on the leader boards. These or just a few of things that make sandbox style MMO's a truly entertaining and immersive experience.
Originally posted by Kyleran [...]they are not mutually exclusive concepts.
Very True.
Im with the sandboxes, though. You can let the players create more content that you could ever create with a developement team. Political intrigues are more interesting if actual players participate.
I love the idea of a "sandbox" MMO. However, I would think that type of game would be not only much harder make but even harder to make fun. I can certainly appreciate Eve for what it is. It is a beautiful game, very deep, and critically acclaimed, however I just do not find it fun. I have tried 3 times so far to find it fun and failed each time. I have my hats off to the folks who have found a good group of friends in that game to play with to make it fun.
Of course, fun may not be the goal of why people would play a sandbox game. If not, then my comments do not apply.
Of course, fun may not be the goal of why people would play a sandbox game. If not, then my comments do not apply.
Ofcourse it is, thus your comment still aplies. But fun is relative and open to each game and each person's perspective. Some players like to build worlds, be it through politics, economics or by force of steel. Others like to unravel misteries, rediscover long lost relics and lore. And still others like to excell in their chosen field of profession, be it crafter, mage, warrior, etc ...
One sandbox game never gives the scope of posibilities for the whole style. Eve ain't nothing similar to Horizons or UO, Ryzom ain't the same as pre-nge SWG or Wurm online.
The person mentioning Eve online as a hybrid solely for the fact the story progresses through content patches makes a moot point. That's what most if not all MMO's seem to do; content and gameplay patches, added features, live events. What imo was meant earlier is the 'false sense of accomplishement' by story and predefined quest-line progression through individual accomplishements in static games.
All in all, it makes a lot more sense Sandbox games sway towards long-term investment due to the openess and scope of possibilities, even after skill of level cap, whereas more linear games suit the 'quick cash for quick entertainment' model; there's only so many times you can re-roll and cope to go through the same re-hashed quests over and over again after you reached the cap. Funnily enough however, the timesink of item-centric or rare drops raiding might prolong investments over additional content imo.
Admittedly this poll is not very scientifoic but, after 120 votes, 90% seem to prefer MMOs that at least have a sandbox-foundation.
So when are these great sandbox games coming then?
It seems to me that - with very few exceptions like EVE - not only qare there very few in operation but that there are even fewer currently oin development? All the big, upcoming games, like AOC or Warhammer, seem to be linear/quest variants.
WHERE IS THE FARSIGHTED DEVELOPMENT COMPANY READY TO MAKE THE MMO'S FIRST TECHNICALLY OPERABLE, COMMERCIALLY VIABLE AND USER FRIENDLY SANDBOX GAME?
Admittedly this poll is not very scientifoic but, after 120 votes, 90% seem to prefer MMOs that at least have a sandbox-foundation. So when are these great sandbox games coming then? It seems to me that - with very few exceptions like EVE - not only qare there very few in operation but that there are even fewer currently oin development? All the big, upcoming games, like AOC or Warhammer, seem to be linear/quest variants. WHERE IS THE FARSIGHTED DEVELOPMENT COMPANY READY TO MAKE THE MMO'S FIRST TECHNICALLY OPERABLE, COMMERCIALLY VIABLE AND USER FRIENDLY SANDBOX GAME?
I don't know but the two games that held my attention were AC1 from 99 till 03 and then SWG from 03 until SOE neutered it. Both were sandbox games and bot got 200-300 out of me in subscription fees and box purchase, nobody else has earned more then $65 from me. Sad thing is that I and most of us that voted "sandbox" are not going to find a game we are truly happy with because the linear games are selling better; companies will learn eventually that there is no point in going after WoW and if they make a great sandbox game they might be able to hold a 300-400k subscription base.
Ofcourse it is, thus your comment still aplies. But fun is relative and open to each game and each person's perspective. Some players like to build worlds, be it through politics, economics or by force of steel. Others like to unravel misteries, rediscover long lost relics and lore. And still others like to excell in their chosen field of profession, be it crafter, mage, warrior, etc ... One sandbox game never gives the scope of posibilities for the whole style. Eve ain't nothing similar to Horizons or UO, Ryzom ain't the same as pre-nge SWG or Wurm online. The person mentioning Eve online as a hybrid solely for the fact the story progresses through content patches makes a moot point. That's what most if not all MMO's seem to do; content and gameplay patches, added features, live events. What imo was meant earlier is the 'false sense of accomplishement' by story and predefined quest-line progression through individual accomplishements in static games. All in all, it makes a lot more sense Sandbox games sway towards long-term investment due to the openess and scope of possibilities, even after skill of level cap, whereas more linear games suit the 'quick cash for quick entertainment' model; there's only so many times you can re-roll and cope to go through the same re-hashed quests over and over again after you reached the cap. Funnily enough however, the timesink of item-centric or rare drops raiding might prolong investments over additional content imo.
Man, that's approximately what I was going to say, (well, atleast the first 3/4 of your post)... Sandbox lasts long, because if they enjoy what they already have at the start, then they're likely to continue, since it's the same damn stuff... Considering the many posters in this thread... Most don't play Sandbox games, not because they're stupid, or have no direction ( meaning, "I don't know of anything that I would consider to serve a purpose") or immature or etc. They don't play Sandbox games or get bored of it, most probably because they feel no sense of "Accomplishment". No accomplishment = pointless = boring = "I'm leaving because I'm boredddd". ( See, it works both ways...)
Btw, the poll proves nothing... This community is extremely biased and therefore, different from the rest of the world... Some people follow the assumption that sandbox games is this "great thing", which is different in everyone's mind... Politics and many kinds of player interaction that are a part of sand box games requires more time than the majority of casuals would care to take part in...
I, myself, am bored of the linear. ( I came into World of Warcraft enjoying it for 3 days or maybe just 2 days and I don't play that much hours a day... On the 3rd day, it hit me that I wasn't accomplishing anything. People yelling on the chat, "lets do this (insert Quest name)" that I just did awhile before, only quickens the realization... )... But evidently, the majority does not feel that way, and developers can't just ignore like the 90% of the population...
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You? if I were to kill a titan tomorrow and no CCP employees showed up to say grats I would petition it. Waiting for: the next MMO that lets me make this macro if hp < 30 then CastSpell("heal") SpellTargetUnit("player") else CastSpell("smite") end
Who knows maybe one of blizzards or biowares new mmo's will be a sandbox..
Well, stranger things have happened, but I'd be shocked if I heard this. To be honest, this is the main reason why I'm not at all hyped about those two developments...neither of them is likely to be skill based or a sandbox MMO.
The writing for the quests in nearly all MMOs is meager at best but they give you a reason and a purpose for playing these games with(and let's be honest here) terrible and boring gameplay. Sandbox MMOs have very little reason why you should be playing that particular one.
A lot of people like old SWG but forget that it was absolutely horrendous at launch and very little was fixed in the following months. It tried to be too "sand box" for it's own good and fell flat on it's face.
A lot of people like Eve but if it was a single player space sim it would be one of the worst ever.
Well personally I favor Sandbox. If they made Oblivion an MMO I would still be playing it.
I also think that quest based games are actually harder to put together for devs then a sandbox style. Look at SWG for example, pre-NGE ofcourse, the game had almost zero quests and was based entirely off of random missions. Granted that got boring quickly, but how much dev time did it take to key up the mission terminals? Compared to a game like WoW where you run into 25 quests every village (all of them easily found thanks to the annoying immersion killing ! over every head and now signposts.....) the DEVs have to slap together a series of pre-constructed and recycled scenarios and write out new scripts for them like the average Scooby-Doo episode (don't get me wrong, I loved Scooby when I was a kid and all...) for every single quest.
I have yet to find a game that captivates me completely. The only two games I have been utterly addicted to have been Planetside and DAoC. All other games I usually quit after 2 maybe 3 months of play.
'quest' is just 'fantasy-speak' for a CHORE. You people like to do chores?
NPC: Us stone workers are having problems with sand falling into our pants. This is irritating, and many of my workers are breaking out in rashes. We need these work pants cleaned! Can you help us out?
Adventurer: I would be glad to support my nation.
NPC: ok. Go find 10 piles of dirty laundry, and take them to the machine of cleaning. Once done, then pick them up and disburse them to my men. Hop to it soldier!
(And then you get to spam your 'community' for help and guidance)
/ooc Where are those damned dirty pants?!
Neighborhood smartass: Don't be so lazy! look it up on the web.
(then you go to the database on the web that describes every quest and it's solution.... do these guys ever get their pants clean?!)
That's a quest-game. Of course, you could make this laundry quest part of a CHAIN, leading to a super big chore/quest that will give the sword of a thousand truths.... but you might have to wait and pay 15/month for a year or so while they develop it. But that gives you time to master the 5 possible battle sequences (sequences of keystrokes resulting in avatar actions in the virtual world), as well and modify 2 of them and add 1 new one over the course of a year because the dev-gods decided to change the rules (class balancing) to make 'choring' more 'challenging'.... ugh
SB - i played on and off for a year or two then it went free and the pacific rim took over all the servers so i havent been back in a while.
AO - since it went free, i got almost 8 months lol after SWG died.
SWG - from day 1 ahem day 2 , 3 accounts until CU.
EVE - 2 accounts going on 2nd year now on both.
WOW - 3 months then got bored
LoTRO - free 30 days only really got bored.
EQ2 / MxO / CoH/V - free 30 days only - ugh.
TR - currently on 1st paid month. is still fun to me but i can see a need for some kinda high end game type stuff in next month or 2 or it goes poof. ends in 21 days if they cant control the credit sellers and PL services spamming for 18 of the 22 hrs the server is up everyday tho.
so yeah my track record says for sandbox games im willing to go longer and more than likely multiple accounts for the game vs liner i rarely last longer than3 months.
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
I wouldn't say it necessarily HAS to be sandbox. But it really should give us players something better to do with our time when we don't feel like going and killing rats or boars. Heck, even some random puzzles in dungeons would be nice. Make us use our brains for a bit rather than simply rushing to the finish line. An example of this can be, You have X amount of time to deciper this puzzle and open the door, if not, then some mobs will pop up from somewhere (prison cells for example). and if you don't solve it again, more mobs will show up, or, the second or third time around the room will be gassed/explode or SOMETHING. Just make it worth our while. Dungeons are supposed to be exciting and dangerous.
'quest' is just 'fantasy-speak' for a CHORE. You people like to do chores? NPC: Us stone workers are having problems with sand falling into our pants. This is irritating, and many of my workers are breaking out in rashes. We need these work pants cleaned! Can you help us out? Adventurer: I would be glad to support my nation. NPC: ok. Go find 10 piles of dirty laundry, and take them to the machine of cleaning. Once done, then pick them up and disburse them to my men. Hop to it soldier! (And then you get to spam your 'community' for help and guidance) /ooc Where are those damned dirty pants?! Neighborhood smartass: Don't be so lazy! look it up on the web. (then you go to the database on the web that describes every quest and it's solution.... do these guys ever get their pants clean?!) That's a quest-game. Of course, you could make this laundry quest part of a CHAIN, leading to a super big chore/quest that will give the sword of a thousand truths.... but you might have to wait and pay 15/month for a year or so while they develop it. But that gives you time to master the 5 possible battle sequences (sequences of keystrokes resulting in avatar actions in the virtual world), as well and modify 2 of them and add 1 new one over the course of a year because the dev-gods decided to change the rules (class balancing) to make 'choring' more 'challenging'.... ugh
I could not agree more. What current MMOs call Quests are grocery lists. Who wants to do that?
But... what if an MMORPG gave you real quests instead of these useless grocery lists? What if a Quest was like this...
Jordan, a man who previously hired you to find his daughter is in trouble and sends you a message telling you that he has uncovered a plot by the man who stole his daughter, the man that is now your enemy. You rescued the girl, and did some dirty deeds to his hirelings. He is seeking revenge. The evil bastard is planning to retake the girl and in order to keep you from interfering, again, he has hired a group of assassins to kill you. In his message, Jordan begs you to protect his daughter, you are the only one he trusts. He has sent her with a caravan to take refuge at a monastery, but he is afraid she will be taken on the route there. If you can save his daughter, he will put you in contact with a man who has information that you need.
Now, you have to find the Caravan, which is in route to another town. On the way there, at any time, you may be attacked by assassins who are actively hunting you. If you survive these ambushes, and reach the caravan the daughter may be there if you got there early enough. If, however, you were delayed by the ambushes, the caravan has been destroyed and the daughter taken. In that case you must track her abductors to their hideout, where they plan to sell her to the man that hired them, the same man that hired the assassins to kill you.
The hideout is very well guarded, you could try a frontal assault, but that might be suicide. Or, you could try to sneak into a secret entrance, or go in disguised as members of the bandits. There are several ways to attempt the rescue, which will you try?
And so on...
This quest is tied into things you have accomplished in the past, there are enemies actively seeking your death, and friends needing your help. Your actions affect how the Quest unfolds, and how you attempt to complete the Quest is up to you. Finally, there is no guarantee you will be successful, and if you fail, there is no repeating this; your story just goes on.
This is what MMORPG Quests should be like, plot driven non-linear and part of your ongoing story. Not grocery lists, or endless boring grinds.
I don’t believe you have to offer only sandbox games, or boring grocery list quest games, it is simply time to make a new kind of MMORPG game that is neither of these old designs, and that is exactly what we have been building for the past two years. I was so tired of playing those other shallow MMOs that I gathered some other game industry professionals and started building one that I want to play. If you are also bored, maybe you want to play something new as well? If so, stop by, we need to convince the industry that people want something better, not more clones of the same.
I could not agree more. What current MMOs call Quests are grocery lists. Who wants to do that?
But... what if an MMORPG gave you real quests instead of these useless grocery lists? What if a Quest was like this...
Jordan, a man who previously hired you to find his daughter is in trouble and sends you a message telling you that he has uncovered a plot by the man who stole his daughter, the man that is now your enemy. You rescued the girl, and did some dirty deeds to his hirelings. He is seeking revenge. The evil bastard is planning to retake the girl and in order to keep you from interfering, again, he has hired a group of assassins to kill you. In his message, Jordan begs you to protect his daughter, you are the only one he trusts. He has sent her with a caravan to take refuge at a monastery, but he is afraid she will be taken on the route there. If you can save his daughter, he will put you in contact with a man who has information that you need.
Now, you have to find the Caravan, which is in route to another town. On the way there, at any time, you may be attacked by assassins who are actively hunting you. If you survive these ambushes, and reach the caravan the daughter may be there if you got there early enough. If, however, you were delayed by the ambushes, the caravan has been destroyed and the daughter taken. In that case you must track her abductors to their hideout, where they plan to sell her to the man that hired them, the same man that hired the assassins to kill you.
The hideout is very well guarded, you could try a frontal assault, but that might be suicide. Or, you could try to sneak into a secret entrance, or go in disguised as members of the bandits. There are several ways to attempt the rescue, which will you try?
And so on...
This quest is tied into things you have accomplished in the past, there are enemies actively seeking your death, and friends needing your help. Your actions affect how the Quest unfolds, and how you attempt to complete the Quest is up to you. Finally, there is no guarantee you will be successful, and if you fail, there is no repeating this; your story just goes on.
This is what MMORPG Quests should be like, plot driven non-linear and part of your ongoing story. Not grocery lists, or endless boring grinds.
I don’t believe you have to offer only sandbox games, or boring grocery list quest games, it is simply time to make a new kind of MMORPG game that is neither of these old designs, and that is exactly what we have been building for the past two years. I was so tired of playing those other shallow MMOs that I gathered some other game industry professionals and started building one that I want to play. If you are also bored, maybe you want to play something new as well? If so, stop by, we need to convince the industry that people want something better, not more clones of the same.
Well, this would be cool.... IF it was dynamically created by the thoughts and intentions of the NPCs...sure. Ultimately, to me, if it is POSSIBLE to go to a third party website and read a list of instructions about what to do to complete it, then it's NOT dynamic. It's just a bigger more complicated list of actions that you do to complete it. With some randomness thrown in because you might crit that sword swing, or you might miss, so my gameplay is like this: do action A, action B... if fail, then do action M and maybe complete quest, if not do action C, etc. Just a little more complicated.
Now we are YEARS away from achieving such things with AI.... so the only way it could really happen in the near future is because there are humans behind those avatars. Also, the game mechanics would have to allow for such things as 'hiring assassins', or 'tracking assassins / others', etc. That's what developers should be doing... creating more things you can do. Then humans with all their greed, benevolence, loyalty, betrayal, etc create the story and world that the players live in.
(aside: when I use bold on a word, I'm not yelling, just emphasizing that word as the most important one in the sentence... to convey meaning etc. :-)
'quest' is just 'fantasy-speak' for a CHORE. You people like to do chores? NPC: Us stone workers are having problems with sand falling into our pants. This is irritating, and many of my workers are breaking out in rashes. We need these work pants cleaned! Can you help us out? Adventurer: I would be glad to support my nation. NPC: ok. Go find 10 piles of dirty laundry, and take them to the machine of cleaning. Once done, then pick them up and disburse them to my men. Hop to it soldier! (And then you get to spam your 'community' for help and guidance) /ooc Where are those damned dirty pants?! Neighborhood smartass: Don't be so lazy! look it up on the web. (then you go to the database on the web that describes every quest and it's solution.... do these guys ever get their pants clean?!) That's a quest-game. Of course, you could make this laundry quest part of a CHAIN, leading to a super big chore/quest that will give the sword of a thousand truths.... but you might have to wait and pay 15/month for a year or so while they develop it. But that gives you time to master the 5 possible battle sequences (sequences of keystrokes resulting in avatar actions in the virtual world), as well and modify 2 of them and add 1 new one over the course of a year because the dev-gods decided to change the rules (class balancing) to make 'choring' more 'challenging'.... ugh
By your logic LOTR was just one big chore. Take RING! Throw into lava. Done. AT least I can choose to do them or not. IN a Sandbox, everything is a chore you make up. There is no content. I'm paying to entertain myself and chat, since thats what content is in a sandbox. No thank you.
Sure most quests in WOW weren't all that special, but there were plenty of gems in there, mostly involving dungeons. Whenever someone mentions all of WOW"s quests are simple, I think "IDIOT, try something other than soloing." DOn't complain there weren't any decent quests if you purposely skipped all the good ones.
Basically I suggest not playing MMOs anymore, because you're obviously bitter and burnt out.
I could not agree more. What current MMOs call Quests are grocery lists. Who wants to do that?
But... what if an MMORPG gave you real quests instead of these useless grocery lists? What if a Quest was like this...
Jordan, a man who previously hired you to find his daughter is in trouble and sends you a message telling you that he has uncovered a plot by the man who stole his daughter, the man that is now your enemy. You rescued the girl, and did some dirty deeds to his hirelings. He is seeking revenge. The evil bastard is planning to retake the girl and in order to keep you from interfering, again, he has hired a group of assassins to kill you. In his message, Jordan begs you to protect his daughter, you are the only one he trusts. He has sent her with a caravan to take refuge at a monastery, but he is afraid she will be taken on the route there. If you can save his daughter, he will put you in contact with a man who has information that you need.
Now, you have to find the Caravan, which is in route to another town. On the way there, at any time, you may be attacked by assassins who are actively hunting you. If you survive these ambushes, and reach the caravan the daughter may be there if you got there early enough. If, however, you were delayed by the ambushes, the caravan has been destroyed and the daughter taken. In that case you must track her abductors to their hideout, where they plan to sell her to the man that hired them, the same man that hired the assassins to kill you.
The hideout is very well guarded, you could try a frontal assault, but that might be suicide. Or, you could try to sneak into a secret entrance, or go in disguised as members of the bandits. There are several ways to attempt the rescue, which will you try?
And so on...
This quest is tied into things you have accomplished in the past, there are enemies actively seeking your death, and friends needing your help. Your actions affect how the Quest unfolds, and how you attempt to complete the Quest is up to you. Finally, there is no guarantee you will be successful, and if you fail, there is no repeating this; your story just goes on.
This is what MMORPG Quests should be like, plot driven non-linear and part of your ongoing story. Not grocery lists, or endless boring grinds.
I don’t believe you have to offer only sandbox games, or boring grocery list quest games, it is simply time to make a new kind of MMORPG game that is neither of these old designs, and that is exactly what we have been building for the past two years. I was so tired of playing those other shallow MMOs that I gathered some other game industry professionals and started building one that I want to play. If you are also bored, maybe you want to play something new as well? If so, stop by, we need to convince the industry that people want something better, not more clones of the same.
Well, this would be cool.... IF it was dynamically created by the thoughts and intentions of the NPCs...sure. Ultimately, to me, if it is POSSIBLE to go to a third party website and read a list of instructions about what to do to complete it, then it's NOT dynamic. It's just a bigger more complicated list of actions that you do to complete it. With some randomness thrown in because you might crit that sword swing, or you might miss, so my gameplay is like this: do action A, action B... if fail, then do action M and maybe complete quest, if not do action C, etc. Just a little more complicated.
Now we are YEARS away from achieving such things with AI.... so the only way it could really happen in the near future is because there are humans behind those avatars. Also, the game mechanics would have to allow for such things as 'hiring assassins', or 'tracking assassins / others', etc. That's what developers should be doing... creating more things you can do. Then humans with all their greed, benevolence, loyalty, betrayal, etc create the story and world that the players live in.
(aside: when I use bold on a word, I'm not yelling, just emphasizing that word as the most important one in the sentence... to convey meaning etc. :-)
I'm pleased to tell you that this is not years away. Our Quest Generator creates Quests for the players, these cannot be looked up on a web site as they are made for the player at the time the player begins the Quest. The AI behind the NPCs is also very possible, as we already have this system in the works. Two years on technology and design, that's what we've spent to get here.
You say, 'that's what developers should be doing', right you are, and that is what we ARE doing. If you would like to see a list of the kind of things you can do in the game, look on our web site and read in the 'Cos Q and A' section, look under 'Design' and read some of the questions people have already asked us about the design of the game.
We're not doing the impossible, we're just trying harder.
Comments
Sandbox all the way. I don't know what developers (in general) are thinking, but they sure as hell are screwing up the MMO genre royally. I think SWG was a great example of what a game should be.....this is before SOE FUBARed it.
Actually EVE did and still does to a lesser extent have storyline based quest/missions. That is to say, it is a Hybrid, not a pure sand box.
Which does explain why it is still around, had it been a pure sandbox the game would have died the first year.
Hybrid or open ended games are the way to go. Sandbox in that you are able to do almost anything but with a story line. All of the patches to EVE were based on story events that happend in EVE. Though a large part of the players beleve that all they should do is go out and pewpewpew other people there is a story line that the game has followed from day one. Yes CCP has lost the path several times but thats a diffrent issue, the upcomming race wars will get the game back on track with the story line.
An so it begins
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.[/CENTER]
I agree. What SOE and Nancy Macintyre of LA never got was that it could actually be fun just to log on, get into yoour ship and fly over to Dathomir or Lok, and then get into your AV21 to check out your harvesters in one long circuit, avoiding the killer mobs. Today's MMO desidgners don't seem to understand 'Kill, get treasure, repeat' is a surefire receipe for a limted game that will not appeal to a maturer and, by corollary, richer subsriber.
I voted sandbox as well, but prefer quest lines system to make the game less boring of a grind. I designed a concept game with a sandbox template, with quest lines to give the rpg effect. However being the state I am in, it is hard to find investors who know much about the time frame, and resources it takes to make a game of this size.
Sandbox game subs last longer than linear. However linear gains more subs due to the demand of players that find sandbox style boring because there is no direction in which the game goes, because of it being open ended. The fact of it is more sandbox games are not usually as threaten by other games, becaused there isn't as many sandbox competitors compared to linear games, and advent fans of sandbox games will not usually stray to linear.
If developing companies release a very well designed sandbox, with a player base encomony, and quest related rpg you find a larger fan base prefer to play a game as such compared to either or.
Yep, a good sandbox style game could most definitively keep my subscription. I do not want someone telling where to go, what to do, how to do it. I am definitively tired of leveling and only having relatively few choices what my character can do... if i want an archer mage then by god let me play one (sry, i miss 7x archer mage from UO). And I think if a lot of people who like linear style games would get the chance to play a good sandbox style game, they would absolutely love it. Player ran meetings where if you chose and have proven yourself worthy of being listened to you can actually impact the game play on a server. Open PvP warfare where you are actually fighting for something, like property, resources, or in-game fame and not just for sake of being #1 on the leader boards. These or just a few of things that make sandbox style MMO's a truly entertaining and immersive experience.
... - ..-. ..-
Who knows maybe one of blizzards or biowares new mmo's will be a sandbox..
Very True.
Im with the sandboxes, though. You can let the players create more content that you could ever create with a developement team. Political intrigues are more interesting if actual players participate.
I love the idea of a "sandbox" MMO. However, I would think that type of game would be not only much harder make but even harder to make fun. I can certainly appreciate Eve for what it is. It is a beautiful game, very deep, and critically acclaimed, however I just do not find it fun. I have tried 3 times so far to find it fun and failed each time. I have my hats off to the folks who have found a good group of friends in that game to play with to make it fun.
Of course, fun may not be the goal of why people would play a sandbox game. If not, then my comments do not apply.
Ofcourse it is, thus your comment still aplies. But fun is relative and open to each game and each person's perspective. Some players like to build worlds, be it through politics, economics or by force of steel. Others like to unravel misteries, rediscover long lost relics and lore. And still others like to excell in their chosen field of profession, be it crafter, mage, warrior, etc ...
One sandbox game never gives the scope of posibilities for the whole style. Eve ain't nothing similar to Horizons or UO, Ryzom ain't the same as pre-nge SWG or Wurm online.
The person mentioning Eve online as a hybrid solely for the fact the story progresses through content patches makes a moot point. That's what most if not all MMO's seem to do; content and gameplay patches, added features, live events. What imo was meant earlier is the 'false sense of accomplishement' by story and predefined quest-line progression through individual accomplishements in static games.
All in all, it makes a lot more sense Sandbox games sway towards long-term investment due to the openess and scope of possibilities, even after skill of level cap, whereas more linear games suit the 'quick cash for quick entertainment' model; there's only so many times you can re-roll and cope to go through the same re-hashed quests over and over again after you reached the cap. Funnily enough however, the timesink of item-centric or rare drops raiding might prolong investments over additional content imo.
Admittedly this poll is not very scientifoic but, after 120 votes, 90% seem to prefer MMOs that at least have a sandbox-foundation.
So when are these great sandbox games coming then?
It seems to me that - with very few exceptions like EVE - not only qare there very few in operation but that there are even fewer currently oin development? All the big, upcoming games, like AOC or Warhammer, seem to be linear/quest variants.
WHERE IS THE FARSIGHTED DEVELOPMENT COMPANY READY TO MAKE THE MMO'S FIRST TECHNICALLY OPERABLE, COMMERCIALLY VIABLE AND USER FRIENDLY SANDBOX GAME?
I don't know but the two games that held my attention were AC1 from 99 till 03 and then SWG from 03 until SOE neutered it. Both were sandbox games and bot got 200-300 out of me in subscription fees and box purchase, nobody else has earned more then $65 from me. Sad thing is that I and most of us that voted "sandbox" are not going to find a game we are truly happy with because the linear games are selling better; companies will learn eventually that there is no point in going after WoW and if they make a great sandbox game they might be able to hold a 300-400k subscription base.
Btw, the poll proves nothing... This community is extremely biased and therefore, different from the rest of the world... Some people follow the assumption that sandbox games is this "great thing", which is different in everyone's mind... Politics and many kinds of player interaction that are a part of sand box games requires more time than the majority of casuals would care to take part in...
I, myself, am bored of the linear. ( I came into World of Warcraft enjoying it for 3 days or maybe just 2 days and I don't play that much hours a day... On the 3rd day, it hit me that I wasn't accomplishing anything. People yelling on the chat, "lets do this (insert Quest name)" that I just did awhile before, only quickens the realization... )... But evidently, the majority does not feel that way, and developers can't just ignore like the 90% of the population...
i hate quests
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
if I were to kill a titan tomorrow and no CCP employees showed up to say grats I would petition it.
Waiting for: the next MMO that lets me make this macro
if hp < 30 then CastSpell("heal") SpellTargetUnit("player") else CastSpell("smite") end
Sorry, but no content, no subscription.
If the dev's can't be bothered to code content into the game, I can't be bothered to pay them.
It's a simple value for money equation. I'll play a free sandbox. Fine.
But I'm not paying anyone for doing nothing.
I'd have to say, hybrid.
Open world and with your choice of grind group, single 1 off quests or even progresive quests.
You want be a crafter you say, then be one, but you shouldnt have to be completly reliant on adventures or be one yourself to excell.
Well, stranger things have happened, but I'd be shocked if I heard this. To be honest, this is the main reason why I'm not at all hyped about those two developments...neither of them is likely to be skill based or a sandbox MMO.
The writing for the quests in nearly all MMOs is meager at best but they give you a reason and a purpose for playing these games with(and let's be honest here) terrible and boring gameplay. Sandbox MMOs have very little reason why you should be playing that particular one.
A lot of people like old SWG but forget that it was absolutely horrendous at launch and very little was fixed in the following months. It tried to be too "sand box" for it's own good and fell flat on it's face.
A lot of people like Eve but if it was a single player space sim it would be one of the worst ever.
Well personally I favor Sandbox. If they made Oblivion an MMO I would still be playing it.
I also think that quest based games are actually harder to put together for devs then a sandbox style. Look at SWG for example, pre-NGE ofcourse, the game had almost zero quests and was based entirely off of random missions. Granted that got boring quickly, but how much dev time did it take to key up the mission terminals? Compared to a game like WoW where you run into 25 quests every village (all of them easily found thanks to the annoying immersion killing ! over every head and now signposts.....) the DEVs have to slap together a series of pre-constructed and recycled scenarios and write out new scripts for them like the average Scooby-Doo episode (don't get me wrong, I loved Scooby when I was a kid and all...) for every single quest.
I have yet to find a game that captivates me completely. The only two games I have been utterly addicted to have been Planetside and DAoC. All other games I usually quit after 2 maybe 3 months of play.
'quest' is just 'fantasy-speak' for a CHORE. You people like to do chores?
NPC: Us stone workers are having problems with sand falling into our pants. This is irritating, and many of my workers are breaking out in rashes. We need these work pants cleaned! Can you help us out?
Adventurer: I would be glad to support my nation.
NPC: ok. Go find 10 piles of dirty laundry, and take them to the machine of cleaning. Once done, then pick them up and disburse them to my men. Hop to it soldier!
(And then you get to spam your 'community' for help and guidance)
/ooc Where are those damned dirty pants?!
Neighborhood smartass: Don't be so lazy! look it up on the web.
(then you go to the database on the web that describes every quest and it's solution.... do these guys ever get their pants clean?!)
That's a quest-game. Of course, you could make this laundry quest part of a CHAIN, leading to a super big chore/quest that will give the sword of a thousand truths.... but you might have to wait and pay 15/month for a year or so while they develop it. But that gives you time to master the 5 possible battle sequences (sequences of keystrokes resulting in avatar actions in the virtual world), as well and modify 2 of them and add 1 new one over the course of a year because the dev-gods decided to change the rules (class balancing) to make 'choring' more 'challenging'.... ugh
well ...
UO - i played from start until trammel.
EQ1 - 5 months
DAoC - 6 months
SB - i played on and off for a year or two then it went free and the pacific rim took over all the servers so i havent been back in a while.
AO - since it went free, i got almost 8 months lol after SWG died.
SWG - from day 1 ahem day 2 , 3 accounts until CU.
EVE - 2 accounts going on 2nd year now on both.
WOW - 3 months then got bored
LoTRO - free 30 days only really got bored.
EQ2 / MxO / CoH/V - free 30 days only - ugh.
TR - currently on 1st paid month. is still fun to me but i can see a need for some kinda high end game type stuff in next month or 2 or it goes poof. ends in 21 days if they cant control the credit sellers and PL services spamming for 18 of the 22 hrs the server is up everyday tho.
so yeah my track record says for sandbox games im willing to go longer and more than likely multiple accounts for the game vs liner i rarely last longer than3 months.
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
I wouldn't say it necessarily HAS to be sandbox. But it really should give us players something better to do with our time when we don't feel like going and killing rats or boars. Heck, even some random puzzles in dungeons would be nice. Make us use our brains for a bit rather than simply rushing to the finish line. An example of this can be, You have X amount of time to deciper this puzzle and open the door, if not, then some mobs will pop up from somewhere (prison cells for example). and if you don't solve it again, more mobs will show up, or, the second or third time around the room will be gassed/explode or SOMETHING. Just make it worth our while. Dungeons are supposed to be exciting and dangerous.
But... what if an MMORPG gave you real quests instead of these useless grocery lists? What if a Quest was like this...
Jordan, a man who previously hired you to find his daughter is in trouble and sends you a message telling you that he has uncovered a plot by the man who stole his daughter, the man that is now your enemy. You rescued the girl, and did some dirty deeds to his hirelings. He is seeking revenge. The evil bastard is planning to retake the girl and in order to keep you from interfering, again, he has hired a group of assassins to kill you. In his message, Jordan begs you to protect his daughter, you are the only one he trusts. He has sent her with a caravan to take refuge at a monastery, but he is afraid she will be taken on the route there. If you can save his daughter, he will put you in contact with a man who has information that you need.
Now, you have to find the Caravan, which is in route to another town. On the way there, at any time, you may be attacked by assassins who are actively hunting you. If you survive these ambushes, and reach the caravan the daughter may be there if you got there early enough. If, however, you were delayed by the ambushes, the caravan has been destroyed and the daughter taken. In that case you must track her abductors to their hideout, where they plan to sell her to the man that hired them, the same man that hired the assassins to kill you.
The hideout is very well guarded, you could try a frontal assault, but that might be suicide. Or, you could try to sneak into a secret entrance, or go in disguised as members of the bandits. There are several ways to attempt the rescue, which will you try?
And so on...
This quest is tied into things you have accomplished in the past, there are enemies actively seeking your death, and friends needing your help. Your actions affect how the Quest unfolds, and how you attempt to complete the Quest is up to you. Finally, there is no guarantee you will be successful, and if you fail, there is no repeating this; your story just goes on.
This is what MMORPG Quests should be like, plot driven non-linear and part of your ongoing story. Not grocery lists, or endless boring grinds.
I don’t believe you have to offer only sandbox games, or boring grocery list quest games, it is simply time to make a new kind of MMORPG game that is neither of these old designs, and that is exactly what we have been building for the past two years. I was so tired of playing those other shallow MMOs that I gathered some other game industry professionals and started building one that I want to play. If you are also bored, maybe you want to play something new as well? If so, stop by, we need to convince the industry that people want something better, not more clones of the same.
Jatar
www.CitadelofSorcery.com
But... what if an MMORPG gave you real quests instead of these useless grocery lists? What if a Quest was like this...
Jordan, a man who previously hired you to find his daughter is in trouble and sends you a message telling you that he has uncovered a plot by the man who stole his daughter, the man that is now your enemy. You rescued the girl, and did some dirty deeds to his hirelings. He is seeking revenge. The evil bastard is planning to retake the girl and in order to keep you from interfering, again, he has hired a group of assassins to kill you. In his message, Jordan begs you to protect his daughter, you are the only one he trusts. He has sent her with a caravan to take refuge at a monastery, but he is afraid she will be taken on the route there. If you can save his daughter, he will put you in contact with a man who has information that you need.
Now, you have to find the Caravan, which is in route to another town. On the way there, at any time, you may be attacked by assassins who are actively hunting you. If you survive these ambushes, and reach the caravan the daughter may be there if you got there early enough. If, however, you were delayed by the ambushes, the caravan has been destroyed and the daughter taken. In that case you must track her abductors to their hideout, where they plan to sell her to the man that hired them, the same man that hired the assassins to kill you.
The hideout is very well guarded, you could try a frontal assault, but that might be suicide. Or, you could try to sneak into a secret entrance, or go in disguised as members of the bandits. There are several ways to attempt the rescue, which will you try?
And so on...
This quest is tied into things you have accomplished in the past, there are enemies actively seeking your death, and friends needing your help. Your actions affect how the Quest unfolds, and how you attempt to complete the Quest is up to you. Finally, there is no guarantee you will be successful, and if you fail, there is no repeating this; your story just goes on.
This is what MMORPG Quests should be like, plot driven non-linear and part of your ongoing story. Not grocery lists, or endless boring grinds.
I don’t believe you have to offer only sandbox games, or boring grocery list quest games, it is simply time to make a new kind of MMORPG game that is neither of these old designs, and that is exactly what we have been building for the past two years. I was so tired of playing those other shallow MMOs that I gathered some other game industry professionals and started building one that I want to play. If you are also bored, maybe you want to play something new as well? If so, stop by, we need to convince the industry that people want something better, not more clones of the same.
Jatar
www.CitadelofSorcery.com
Well, this would be cool.... IF it was dynamically created by the thoughts and intentions of the NPCs...sure. Ultimately, to me, if it is POSSIBLE to go to a third party website and read a list of instructions about what to do to complete it, then it's NOT dynamic. It's just a bigger more complicated list of actions that you do to complete it. With some randomness thrown in because you might crit that sword swing, or you might miss, so my gameplay is like this: do action A, action B... if fail, then do action M and maybe complete quest, if not do action C, etc. Just a little more complicated.
Now we are YEARS away from achieving such things with AI.... so the only way it could really happen in the near future is because there are humans behind those avatars. Also, the game mechanics would have to allow for such things as 'hiring assassins', or 'tracking assassins / others', etc. That's what developers should be doing... creating more things you can do. Then humans with all their greed, benevolence, loyalty, betrayal, etc create the story and world that the players live in.
(aside: when I use bold on a word, I'm not yelling, just emphasizing that word as the most important one in the sentence... to convey meaning etc. :-)
By your logic LOTR was just one big chore. Take RING! Throw into lava. Done. AT least I can choose to do them or not. IN a Sandbox, everything is a chore you make up. There is no content. I'm paying to entertain myself and chat, since thats what content is in a sandbox. No thank you.
Sure most quests in WOW weren't all that special, but there were plenty of gems in there, mostly involving dungeons. Whenever someone mentions all of WOW"s quests are simple, I think "IDIOT, try something other than soloing." DOn't complain there weren't any decent quests if you purposely skipped all the good ones.
Basically I suggest not playing MMOs anymore, because you're obviously bitter and burnt out.
But... what if an MMORPG gave you real quests instead of these useless grocery lists? What if a Quest was like this...
Jordan, a man who previously hired you to find his daughter is in trouble and sends you a message telling you that he has uncovered a plot by the man who stole his daughter, the man that is now your enemy. You rescued the girl, and did some dirty deeds to his hirelings. He is seeking revenge. The evil bastard is planning to retake the girl and in order to keep you from interfering, again, he has hired a group of assassins to kill you. In his message, Jordan begs you to protect his daughter, you are the only one he trusts. He has sent her with a caravan to take refuge at a monastery, but he is afraid she will be taken on the route there. If you can save his daughter, he will put you in contact with a man who has information that you need.
Now, you have to find the Caravan, which is in route to another town. On the way there, at any time, you may be attacked by assassins who are actively hunting you. If you survive these ambushes, and reach the caravan the daughter may be there if you got there early enough. If, however, you were delayed by the ambushes, the caravan has been destroyed and the daughter taken. In that case you must track her abductors to their hideout, where they plan to sell her to the man that hired them, the same man that hired the assassins to kill you.
The hideout is very well guarded, you could try a frontal assault, but that might be suicide. Or, you could try to sneak into a secret entrance, or go in disguised as members of the bandits. There are several ways to attempt the rescue, which will you try?
And so on...
This quest is tied into things you have accomplished in the past, there are enemies actively seeking your death, and friends needing your help. Your actions affect how the Quest unfolds, and how you attempt to complete the Quest is up to you. Finally, there is no guarantee you will be successful, and if you fail, there is no repeating this; your story just goes on.
This is what MMORPG Quests should be like, plot driven non-linear and part of your ongoing story. Not grocery lists, or endless boring grinds.
I don’t believe you have to offer only sandbox games, or boring grocery list quest games, it is simply time to make a new kind of MMORPG game that is neither of these old designs, and that is exactly what we have been building for the past two years. I was so tired of playing those other shallow MMOs that I gathered some other game industry professionals and started building one that I want to play. If you are also bored, maybe you want to play something new as well? If so, stop by, we need to convince the industry that people want something better, not more clones of the same.
Jatar
www.CitadelofSorcery.com
Well, this would be cool.... IF it was dynamically created by the thoughts and intentions of the NPCs...sure. Ultimately, to me, if it is POSSIBLE to go to a third party website and read a list of instructions about what to do to complete it, then it's NOT dynamic. It's just a bigger more complicated list of actions that you do to complete it. With some randomness thrown in because you might crit that sword swing, or you might miss, so my gameplay is like this: do action A, action B... if fail, then do action M and maybe complete quest, if not do action C, etc. Just a little more complicated.
Now we are YEARS away from achieving such things with AI.... so the only way it could really happen in the near future is because there are humans behind those avatars. Also, the game mechanics would have to allow for such things as 'hiring assassins', or 'tracking assassins / others', etc. That's what developers should be doing... creating more things you can do. Then humans with all their greed, benevolence, loyalty, betrayal, etc create the story and world that the players live in.
(aside: when I use bold on a word, I'm not yelling, just emphasizing that word as the most important one in the sentence... to convey meaning etc. :-)
I'm pleased to tell you that this is not years away. Our Quest Generator creates Quests for the players, these cannot be looked up on a web site as they are made for the player at the time the player begins the Quest. The AI behind the NPCs is also very possible, as we already have this system in the works. Two years on technology and design, that's what we've spent to get here.You say, 'that's what developers should be doing', right you are, and that is what we ARE doing. If you would like to see a list of the kind of things you can do in the game, look on our web site and read in the 'Cos Q and A' section, look under 'Design' and read some of the questions people have already asked us about the design of the game.
We're not doing the impossible, we're just trying harder.
Jatar
www.CitadelofSorcery.com