Instead of Permadeath, lose a level only after Max Level.

gillvane1

Instead of Perma Death, how about after you reach max level, if you die, you lose one level. (but only if you are not rezzed).

 

So for example, the levels, or skill levels, go to 100. Up until level 99, if you die it's the same sort of penalty like EQ2 or WoW. But at level 100, if you die, and don't get rezzed, you go back to level 99. If you die at level 99, you don't lose any more levels.

After you kill someone in PvP that is max level, you camp their corpse for a little while, and if you prevent anyone from rezzing them, they lose a level.

That would sting, but not bad enough to make you quit.

Get a more detailed description by clicking this link, it's a short read, only three or four short paragraphs.

rcorvin

The current generation of MMORPGs has set a mold in place - it is most likely not going to be profitable to continue to make MMOs with terribly harsh death penalties. Oh, I'm sure there'll always be a hand-full of them floating around out there, fulfilling a small niche in the market.

 

But at this point in time, harsh death penalties are obsolete - even in a limited capacity such as this one.

 

Personally, I wouldn't play a game that nixed my progress if I died, unless that game was absolutely amazing in every other way. That includes, yes, losing a level after reaching max level. I don't want to have to worry about regaining that last level repeatedly, particularly if it can be lost by means of "some dick killing me and camping my corpse", of which there would be plenty if such activities were permitted.

 

Some people may enjoy this. Perhaps it should be an option - which is to say, you can voluntarily set yourself up to take "harsh" penalties like this.

 

Personally, though, I wouldn't do it.

paulscott

you do not punish players just for the sake of punishing them.   you need to design your game and have a game design to suit it's death penalty.

 

in something that follows the everquest/WoW mold this game mechanic is full of fail.

in something like WurmOnline it would be stupid to not have it's skill loss penalty.  town raids would be impossible otherwise, PvP would be a smaller deal, and outside of PvP it can be pretty hard to die.  edit: you do gain back lost skills faster, and it's very good for characteristics IE faster than if you were to not have died.

MuffinManXIV

I would rather see fully lootable corpses over losing a level.  What is a player to gain from killing someone else and forcing them to lose a level?

 

Of course fully lootable corpses wouldn't really work in the current state of most MMO's where the gear grind is longer and more harsh than the level grind.

Qal_Nephesh

Thats not a bad idea.  It certainly would get rid of the evil that is Permadeath.  But would you give an almost max level character some exp or rare loot bonus for taking down a max level character?  Or, just to make things more interesting, give the max level character a chance to get that last level back?  If the player had a chance to gain that last level back by revenging themselves (like what has been done in Kane and Lynch: Dean Men) or defeating some insanely strong boss, it could really add something to PvP.  Maybe give the player a bonus to their stats for a limited amount of time, and if they don't revenge themselves/ defeat the boss quick enough, the have to gain back that last level through normal grinding. 

paulscott

Once again it's all based on what the game is designed around.  wurm once again is full item loot,  it works because 99.9% of items are player crafted.

skill loss is the thing that keeps the HUR HUR HUR I GOT UR STOOF N0W people away.

rcorvin

Originally posted by MuffinManXIV


I would rather see fully lootable corpses over losing a level.  What is a player to gain from killing someone else and forcing them to lose a level?
 
Of course fully lootable corpses wouldn't really work in the current state of most MMO's where the gear grind is longer and more harsh than the level grind.

This could work - but ultimately, when it boils right down to it...

 

IF you HAVE to put a death penalty in, you need to refrain from killing progress made by characters. If gear is going to be dropped when you die, gear shouldn't be difficult to acquire or all THAT big a reward for killing someone.

 

Basically, if your game is one where players kill the Lich King and he drops Frostmourne, they shouldn't be dropping their stuff if they die. If your game is like Ultima Online, where every single bit of your equipment is easily replaced, then sure, have everything drop.

 

Bottom line is, don't screw the players. The current generation of MMOs is not terribly forgiving of harsh death penalties of any kind.

MuffinManXIV

Originally posted by rcorvin


 
Originally posted by MuffinManXIV


I would rather see fully lootable corpses over losing a level.  What is a player to gain from killing someone else and forcing them to lose a level?
 
Of course fully lootable corpses wouldn't really work in the current state of most MMO's where the gear grind is longer and more harsh than the level grind.

 

This could work - but ultimately, when it boils right down to it...

 

IF you HAVE to put a death penalty in, you need to refrain from killing progress made by characters. If gear is going to be dropped when you die, gear shouldn't be difficult to acquire or all THAT big a reward for killing someone.

 

Basically, if your game is one where players kill the Lich King and he drops Frostmourne, they shouldn't be dropping their stuff if they die. If your game is like Ultima Online, where every single bit of your equipment is easily replaced, then sure, have everything drop.

 

Bottom line is, don't screw the players. The current generation of MMOs is not terribly forgiving of harsh death penalties of any kind.

Yeah, which is why I stated it wouldn't work in a lot of current MMO's, WoW being a perfect example.  As you said, it takes quite a lot of effort to get your epics in WoW, having them drop to some lucky nub one day would just be over the top.  The only way I could see this ever working in a game like WoW is if you insured your items (/cough ultima online) or you simply just did not drop items that bind on pickup.  The latter idea would probably be the better option, while you won't get their uber pwnage gear, you can still get stuff like herbs or minerals that they have have been gathering and still make quite a pretty penny on some of the other stuff they drop.  Losing your ore that you have been mining for the past hour will certainly give you an incentive not to die, while still being mild enough to not warrant quitting over.

Kremlik

Originally posted by rcorvin


 
Originally posted by MuffinManXIV


I would rather see fully lootable corpses over losing a level.  What is a player to gain from killing someone else and forcing them to lose a level?
 
Of course fully lootable corpses wouldn't really work in the current state of most MMO's where the gear grind is longer and more harsh than the level grind.

 

This could work - but ultimately, when it boils right down to it...

 

IF you HAVE to put a death penalty in, you need to refrain from killing progress made by characters. If gear is going to be dropped when you die, gear shouldn't be difficult to acquire or all THAT big a reward for killing someone.

 

Basically, if your game is one where players kill the Lich King and he drops Frostmourne, they shouldn't be dropping their stuff if they die. If your game is like Ultima Online, where every single bit of your equipment is easily replaced, then sure, have everything drop.

 

Bottom line is, don't screw the players. The current generation of MMOs is not terribly forgiving of harsh death penalties of any kind.

To flip that a bit a lot of MMOs out there have 'debuffs' but they are that small they don't actally effect the gameplay and allow you to continue even if you 'died' straight away..

In both PVP and PVE, 'death' should keep you out of combat unless you are aided via a buff from a healer class or another item (which BOTH should cost heavy).. LOTRO has it almost right were 'death' decreases your 'health', healing taken AND ups damage taken (also distorts the visual effects and 'blinds' you a bit), this increases the further you get into the game and stacks, but still the first instance of 'death' is still minor.. Like I said a 'debuff' is fine as long as it keeps you out of combat..

Jenuviel

I think harsh penalties, whether it's perma-death, level loss, or even massive financial loss, have one effect on a playerbase: it makes them risk-adverse. When there's a lot to lose, the playerbase avoids situations where that loss is a possibility. That means no raids, no pvp, no fighting bosses, none of the current "endgame" solutions; now, I don't like any of those things anyway, and I tend to be very cautious when I play,  but I have no idea what they'd replace them with, if anything. If the playerbase is going to be huddling in their houses dodging the reaper, maybe an in-game version of solitaire?

Adrenaline junkies might find the huge risk to be fuel for their particular fires, but if the current market shows anything, it's that there aren't enough of those players to make any impact on the market research being done by the game publishers. And, believe me, when you're investing tens of millions of dollars in a genre as hit-or-miss as this one, you do employ market research to make sure you reach as many possible buyers as you can. It's entirely possible that permadeath could add a lot of benefits to an MMO. I've read articles by both Raph Koster and Richard Bartle saying such. The thing is, if the players don't  want it, no matter how beneficial it might (or might not) be, then you'll never see it.

Now, if you're willing to play online games that don't need to meet a bottom line, the odds of finding permadeath shards go up significantly. Permadeth exists in MUDs, it exists in some Neverwinter Nights realms, and it pops up occasionally on MMO pirate shards. It wouldn't surprise me if the SWGemu had one or more people running permadeath shards. They won't be hugely populated, but they won't have to be because money's been taken out of the equation. As long as cash is a factor, though, I just don't see harsh penalties making a comeback.

paulscott

it is not time for this thread to be at the bottom.   I know people on these forums are opioniated enough to say something, maybe even spew something.

daylight01

Cant see how this would work tbh,Someone goes out farming just before I raid dies and either loses a level or someone from his guild has to go res him,I can hear the bashing from here,It really feels you would just be punishing someone for the sake of punishing them.It is maybe a little like(i did say little) bit like VG were you can lose xp and go into negative but not as unfair as for the player to lose a level.

MuffinManXIV

Haha, all this talk of gettin people to come rez them reminded me of something.  I doubt any of you have even heard of this game, let alone even play it, but it had some cool features.  The game isn't online anymore (ha, it probably had the shortest life of any MMO) but it was called tales of eternia online and was only released in japan.  But anywho, it had a cool feature where if you died, you would lie on the ground and you could actually have your groupmates pick you up and carry you to the church back in town.  Doing so avoided any penalties that you would normally have gotten from just releasing.  I duno, it was just a nifty feature the game had and seemed appropriate for the topic   Was always funny to be walkin through town and you just see a little line of people carrying their friends over to the church.

Unknown

Heh man on the MUD I used to play dying at level 70 would lose you 5 levels and since the xp to level started was an ever increasing curve that was a whole lot.  You also had to do corpse runs.

 

Man MMORPGs are so whimpy even the "hardcore" ones.  Its so funny when the people who play them try to act all tough.

 

Anyway perma-death versus in play penalties are completely different you cannot exachange one for the other.  Perma-death only makes sense in a game that is predicated on replayability not player investment.

 

Most RPG are an investment if you kill off  that investment people with despair and pull a Kevin Landwaster on you.

 

Perma-death is not a completely bad idea but it would need to be a dynamic game based around replayability and be accepted as a natural part of a character, not a penalty.

For example there are no heroic acts in current MMOs.  But with perma-death a person who sacrifices themselves so that their friends may survive would be heroic.  A game with perma-death may in fact be the best for role-play (as in acting a part).  But again it would need to be a game that successfully sold the idea that you are playing a hero or whatever and that there is no permanence, no need to hold on to your invested character like scrooge McDuck.  It would most likely have to be a highly dynamic game.

Xp penalties or minor level loss is merely a penalty.  A behavior modification.  Perma-death is far to extreme to be that.

gillvane1

 

Originally posted by Qal_Nephesh


Thats not a bad idea.  It certainly would get rid of the evil that is Permadeath.  But would you give an almost max level character some exp or rare loot bonus for taking down a max level character?  Or, just to make things more interesting, give the max level character a chance to get that last level back?  If the player had a chance to gain that last level back by revenging themselves (like what has been done in Kane and Lynch: Dean Men) or defeating some insanely strong boss, it could really add something to PvP.  Maybe give the player a bonus to their stats for a limited amount of time, and if they don't revenge themselves/ defeat the boss quick enough, the have to gain back that last level through normal grinding. 

 

 

I think that's a good suggestion. There could be ways to get your level back, like perhaps a bounty on your killer, or some of the things mentioned above. Leveling all over again for that last level would be a last resort.

 

Also, a lot depends on how hard it is to actually gain that last level. If it's excruiatingly boring, the sure I'd quit, but if it's not that bad, but enough to sting, I wouldn't mind that much. I would be rather mad if my guildmates did not kill the people camping my corpse so I didn't lose my level.

 MMORPG Maker

dikky

I wish mmorpgs would have powerful classes and regular classes. Powerful classes should be powerful in PvP only but if you die, you get a pretty heavy exp/lvl loss. They should be expensive for upkeep as well.

Regular classes should only lose buffs and what not.

Classicstar

I think when you implement in a game when reach lvl100 and you be killed lose lvl and at 99 again be killed and lose lvl to98 and so on it would give a big boost for  such a game to try delvl someone.

Fun factor would be enormous i gues, a matter affect hilarious.

Man get this picture some one finally reach lvl100 and then someone come along and delvl him to 99 camp his body and again delvl him to 98 OMG , what fun would that be.

Is there any game out there, who have this?....., ill sign up!

Classicstar

Originally posted by teiohFromSWG


I wish mmorpgs would have powerful classes and regular classes. Powerful classes should be powerful in PvP only but if you die, you get a pretty heavy exp/lvl loss. They should be expensive for upkeep as well.
Regular classes should only lose buffs and what not.

This would not work or everybody is so carebear they choose the latter, and some are powerfull kill over and over again the less powerfull.

Or everyboddy choose powerfull class becouse no use choosing a less powerfull class becouse you all ways die when the powerfull comes along:P

andyjd

Originally posted by MuffinManXIV


I would rather see fully lootable corpses over losing a level.  What is a player to gain from killing someone else and forcing them to lose a level?
 
Of course fully lootable corpses wouldn't really work in the current state of most MMO's where the gear grind is longer and more harsh than the level grind.

i think thats it....if you're going to do PvP 'properly', you need to think about it in terms of the entire game, rather than just tacking it into a PvE game.

Netzoko

If this would be, nobody would bother staying at cap, but rather everyone would stay one below it to avoid having to grind up after each dealth.

Briansho

I would rather see a rare, hard to kill, hard to skill gain, stealth, assassin/ninja type class thats a pain in the ass to play have perma-death. Also 1 character per account.