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What is 'sandbox' and what is 'linear'?
ladyattis
Member Posts: 1,273
I pose it as a question that I'll attempt to answer, but leave for everyone else to consider and answer as well because I think both terms are being used wrongly all too often on the forums as of late.
Let me consider the term sandbox. It comes from the actual real world sandbox, where some of us as children have played from time to time. We could shape the sand as we wanted with the toys we brought with us; shovel, pail, and maybe even a few other toys (dolls, cars, and so on). Whatever we did was due in part to our over active imaginations in the sandbox. In essence, the real world sandbox was part of its own design and part of our designs onto the sandbox.
How the conceptualization of the real world sandbox applies to games is well understood by many game developers. For example, the Grand Theft Auto series is known as one of the few significant sandbox games (next to earlier games such as Elite and Elite II) in history because it incorporated multiple paths for players to take in completing missions and the story arcs. In particular, GTA: San Andreas brought this peculiar nature of the game series to the fore by allowing multiple mini-games with different strategies involved, all which aided either in immersion or in the actual final set goals as to complete the game story arcs (ex: the gang land mini-game had to be completed up to a point before the player could do the final finish...). This means, at least from the examination of GTA, that sandbox for games is the treatment of linear story lines and gameplay to allow for multiple paths to either the same conclusion or down multiple possible states of conclusion for the game. With this definition, it becomes clear that the degree of freedom as enjoyed in sandbox games is due to widening the field of play through mini-games, additional game mechanics (different kinds of weaponry, abilities, and so forth), and multiple story lines and/or missions.
With this take on the sandbox concept for games in mind, let me consider the other term: linear. What is linear? Well, if we take the obvious meaning of the word, it is to mean that if one starts at point a and travels to point b, one has gotten there in a finite, distinct path: a linear path (quantifiable and discrete to a degree). By technicality, every game is linear because one starts at the initial point of the game and winds up at the fundamental end of the game. Even games like Chess and Go, which have multiple endings (in regards to plays each player can take), have defined initial states and terminal (ending) states, but the players are given wider than easily perceived fields of play (strategies and so on) which narrow with each successive turn winding up to a finite number of terminal states. In this context, linear in regards to games, does not mean anything more than stating the nature of all games; that they have a start, a middle 'field', and end(s).
What does this all mean for MMOs? Well, I don't think it means much, other than they're buzz words that get thrown about too often like synergy and 'self-help.' Essentially, if one is to take any of these terms to mean anything then one could take them to mean as I've argued, but there are many other possible definitions, to which have some degree of significance on this debate as well.
-- Brede
Comments
My very brief definition of Sandbox is total freedom. Its a world not a game.
My very bried definition of Linear is Quests and Leveling. Its a traditional game.
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atsdf.com
Among The Shadows
Darkfall Clan
But even GTA and Elite have degrees of both. Can you explain why they're sandbox yet having attributes of the other (aka linear)?
yes, because they want to make more money, by appealing to both types of gamers. Plus, these are not MMO's. Doesn't mean much but your primary examples to fit in to the category.
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atsdf.com
Among The Shadows
Darkfall Clan
Yet, they're very important as they've defined the terms by their creation and success in the marketplace. Again, why do you define both to be mutually exclusive when both seem to fit definitely on all games?
I think one big point of view MMO-wise is that linear games are all about moving along developer created content (typical example: WOW, preset progression of dungeons, preset progression of gear tiers) and sandbox ones are about player affected game world, challenges created by player interactions (typical example: EVE, player ran economy, player created mission, gameplay focused on player company interactions).
Subscribtions: EVE, SWTOR WOW, WAR, DDO, VG, AOC, COV, FFXI, GW, RFO, Aion
+plenty of F2P, betas, trials
Female Dwarf player: WOW, VG, WAR, DDO
.
Due to the recent economic crisis and spending cuts the light at the end of the tunnel was turned off. Sincerely, God.
That, I agree with, but fundamentally you can have both as to fulfill the needs of helping newbies to MMOs and games in general to understand the game through the content, and still provide a strong sandbox feature set for veteran players and experienced (who have played other games MMO and otherwise) players.
That, I agree with, but fundamentally you can have both as to fulfill the needs of helping newbies to MMOs and games in general to understand the game through the content, and still provide a strong sandbox feature set for veteran players and experienced (who have played other games MMO and otherwise) players.
Nice thread.
I like to bash on MMO's often over this very thing.
I think I am along the same lines as you ladyattis. Both are important but no game does both, at the same time, well.
You can have a "sandbox" world with linear questing. The sandbox element is more like the playfield but you do need something to play on that field. Without context to drive the player, it doesn't leave much for him to do. You run into that "you can do whatever you want" which is generally replied to "like what?" Ryzom was like this. Nothing to really do but you could do what you wanted. Mainly because it did not have enough sandbox tools in it or story elements.
You are always going to have some sort of linear element unless its a "sim" and even then, there is linear development. Step by step is a basic element of anything. Where MMORPG's have a problem is they totally rely on the linear MATH to provide entertainment.
Some of the problem with MMO's is they do not give you enough options and therefore feel linear. If each time I start a new character I follow the same quest path, well...that doesn't exactly encourage a virtual world feeling. Add the fact that its the same "kill 10 rats" task and you may as well play Peggle. Its more fun and challenging.
An example of a game that comes close but does more or less fail at creating a virtual world is LotRs. Now its a very good game but the problem is this. One, its combat centric. If you are not one of their dry combat classes, you can't play. Second, the storyline is too focused. Oblivion is a more free form game. In LotRs, if you do not follow the task lines, you may as well not play because you will not progress in anything from combat to crafting. Third, nothing you do has any impact on anything. The story quest are nice but do not impact the world. Now thats fine but nothing you do has any impact. In PvM, fighting and WINNING has no benefit. No impact. You may as well not have it. Its just a mini-game. Crafting is offset by loot, discouraging anyone looking to craft. Fight 10 boars or don't play is really what the game does. Follow the "books" like everyone else or don't play. What else can you do? Its the same with WoW, EQII and really most MMO's.
Some (not all) of the things a good MMORPG needs IMHO.
The story may be as simple as LotR's, the bad guys want to conquer the world and good needs to stop it BUT its how each player chooses to do that is what would make it a virtual world. This is what makes NON-Linear gameplay in a virtual world not a combat mechanic, a character view or movement system. Frodo makes the choice to go to Mordor for example. He makes all sorts of impacting choices along his way. That was his real quest "destroy the ring of power" not kill 10 pigs or deliver pies. That would be more incidental then anything else.
Finally, Grind. If its feels dull and repetitive, then it is. Math is fine and dandy but should not be the focus. If all you are doing is playing to get a new or higher number, then you may as well not play. Just skip it and get to the point of whatever it is the player is trying to get to. Punishing them with hundreds of hours of tedious and repetitive play is just plain old poor design. Asian games are NOT the only ones guilty of this, in fact most if not all MMO's are. GW is probably the only one to have enough "courage" to come out and say"ok, we know not everyone wants to grind, so skip it for our endgame". Now that non-linear lol
Anyway, my 2 cents. (opinion)
What is "Sandbox" and what is "linear"? I guess I'll answer both in few of the design concepts.
Sandbox:
1.) Game World: To me, the concept of "sandbox" in MMORPG is one where even though there is a general background story in the game world, it can be changed, redefined, and/or outright ignored by players' involvement. This means each action and interaction matters to the game world, for it will help forge it and help to evolve the game world. This also creates a dynamic experience for the players.
----- DYNAMIC GAME WORLD EXPERIENCES
2.) Character Progression/Development: For me, in a Sandbox format, I should be able to become whoever I want (within reason and the game world limitation), and I can change my mind, as long as I am willing to take the time to unlearn and learn other skills (Jack-of-all-trade, Master-of-none will be the design focus...). People can choose to specialize in certain area, or they can choose to broaden their character skills. But this is in no way hurting the players' method of playing in a group. There is a need for character inter-dependency, therefore each player can contribute to the game world according to their respective field. (combat, economic, political).. This will also help the Crafter-only players and non-combatants in the game.
----- DYNAMIC CHARACTER PROGRESSION/DEVELOPMENT
3.) Quest/Mission/Task: Under "sandbox", there can be quests and missions, but they are there as one of the method improve the character, not the only method. Also, with the freedom in character development, there can be different types of Quests/Missions/tasks existing for different types of players to enjoy. Each character, can in fact, have their own story as to how they get to where they are...
----- DYNAMIC STORIES/PROGRESSION
Linear:
1.) Game World: To me, the concept of "linear" in MMORPG is one where most of the present game world are static, and that it doesn't change at all. Nothing you do matters. Kill a boss? it will respawn so the next person can skill it. Everyone experience the same thing.
----- STATIC GAME WORLDS EXPERIENCES
2.) Character Progression/Development: For me, in a Linear format, I am limited by the preset design for characters, and I cannot change and/or become someone different. A mage is a mage, he cannot re-train to become a warrior, or a crafter. A warrior cannot become a mage, or even if just to learn a simple fire spell. There focus is mainly on the combat side of the character progression, and the economical side suffers from such design. Crafters are sub to the combat profession. All of these brings a very limited character progression/development to the game.
----- STATIC CHARACTER PROGRESSION/DEVELOPMENT
3.) Quest/Mission/Task: Under "linear" design, many of the game nowadays focus on questing instead of the older day's mob-grinding (tasks). These are the only ways to level, and since there aren't any more focus on the other types of gameplay (crafters, gathers, policitians), the quests/missions/tasks are infact the same for everyone to "set a fair ground" for players to gain experiences and level. But this means that as warrior, your story is the same as everyone elses.
----- STATIC STORIES/PROGRESSION
Of course, these view are only my own, and I don't expect everyone agree with it. I just want to state my own definition to the design idea of "sandbox" and "linear". This is from what I've seen, and what I believe that should be (in sandbox design anyway). There can be hybrid that does it better, but I haven't seen such game(s) running active right now. (I've never played EvE, so one of these day I might actually try it....)
Current MMO: FFXIV:ARR
Past MMO: Way too many (P2P and F2P)
Linear:
Gameplay is defined trough advancement. You have goals to reach and you will hit a level cap where you'll be forced to repeatedly do the same events over and over.
Sandbox:
Developpers pumps out dynamic and ever-updated content allowing you not to be forced in spending your max lvl in one spot waiting for a spawn or doing a raid.
So far, it seems to me the only sandbox MMORPGs ever created were SWG and Ryzom, and theyw ere far from the "ideal" sandbox MMORPG where your agenda is not determined by the amounbt of time you can spend better your character with very hard to attein content.
My addiction History:
>> EQ1 2000-2004 - Shaman/Bard/Wizard/Monk - nolife raid-whore
>> WoW 2004-2009 + Cataclysm for 2 months - hardcore casual
>> Current status : done with MMO, too old for that crap.
Ha. I love this question.
Q. What is Sandbox?
A. Take a triple-A MMORPG, that has been designed to cater for many play styles and has widespread critical acclaim. Now, take away content, such as quests and stories (these are linear!!1!). Leave the players to entertain themselves (EVE players like to call this 'politics').
Alternatively, take a Sandbox MMO which has hardly any content (like EVE), and add lots of storylines, quests, etc... and suddenly it's not sandbox anymore, because the majority of players assume that they must do the linear content. It's all in their heads.
In short a sandbox MMO is a game without any decent content. This is why most MMOs are actually sandbox and you won't find any examples other than EVE, because it has an absurdly devout player base of players that make money from GTCs and what have you, and need more noobs to come in and help fund their pyramid scheme.
Still waiting for your Holy Grail MMORPG? Interesting...
Great Thread.
IMO the biggest difference between sandbox and linear is player goals.
In a linear game the goals are clearly defined at the point of character creation - you start as a Mage your main goal is pre-defined to become a better mage. Players can add there own goals too that but every mage is going to become a better mage. This is where levels and equipment provide the steps upwards towards that goal. Most frequently all mages are all on the same linear path to that goal. At the end of the linear path max-level and equipment players are often left waiting for the next expansion, restarting an alternate path, or engaging in FPS style PVP.
The whole game world system is engineered to progress the players towards that goal. Levels, quests, dungeons, raids, some games maybe said to hold your hand thru this process.
A sandbox game does not have a pre-defined fixed goal at Character creation - the player must pick and choose there goal(s) within the world. The beauty (or curse) of a sandbox is the fact the player can change there goals as and when they like without having to do a reroll to select a new linear goal. Players get a lot more freedom to be creative about the goals and can use virtual world to define and shape there progress.
Playing to level - occurs alot in in a linear game, in a sandbox players are not driven down the level grind path and are more able to find there own way to play.
UO was the first sandbox MMO I played. The freedom it allowed thru a skill based, open PVP system was part of the wonder of that first MMO experiance. The clash between role-play and pvp in those early days made for some amazing player created events - deadly poisoning of the wedding cake followed by a PK raid of the wedding, just doesnt happen in a game where everyones nose is to the grindstone.
EVE is currently the biggest sandbox im playing in right now.
A sandbox is where you do want you want.
Linear is where you do what someone else wants.
"The death penalty is not a type of capital punishment. A death penalty is losing half your xp, whereas capital punishment is what you get when you enter a pvp area after one week playing. Totally different." - J.K. 2001
I see you are unable to grasp the concept instead you came here bashing the most prominent representative of sandbox system out there (bitter about the yearly awards results or what?). I'm not saying EVE is perfect, heck its not, but its probably the only major MMO like that out there. I WISH it werent, I wish we had more of a choice there, yet we are flooded with WOW clones.
Subscribtions: EVE, SWTOR WOW, WAR, DDO, VG, AOC, COV, FFXI, GW, RFO, Aion
+plenty of F2P, betas, trials
Female Dwarf player: WOW, VG, WAR, DDO
.
Due to the recent economic crisis and spending cuts the light at the end of the tunnel was turned off. Sincerely, God.
Sandbox definition see Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandbox_game
Linearity definition see Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linearity_%28computer_and_video_games%29
Then you havn't played many MMORPG's!
You should probably expand your game catalogue. EVE Online is not the only Sandbox game:
sandbox MMOs I of know of:
wurm online, Second Life (has 19% market share right behind WoW's heels), Starport, eve online, UO, ryzom, Vendetta online, and a few others.
So, Second Life is a critically acclaimed Sandbox MMO. Not popular here on this forum (like WoW), but within SL there are many "sims" where gamers ahve setup various little universes (like Midgar, city of los angels, etc). I would contend SL alone has more content then many linear MMOs (hence its popularity)
Next, your definition of Sandbox does not even cover Sandbox titles like Elder Scrolls Oblivion, GTA, Crackdown, Spiderman game series, etc. Sandbox titles have taken console/PC by storm and over 3 appeared in Neilsen's reports for 2007 for most played by PC gamers (The Sims, Sims 2, GTA)
The bare minimum definition has been pointed out by Thorgood at wikipedia
Lastly, I wonder have you played EVE Online? It has many Quests (missions). They go all the way up to Level 4. You should have seen them on day 1 of a free trial