Pardon me, but let me give you a brief picture from Southpark.
After Stan found out about what scientologists believe regarding Xenu and the whole genocide via volcano thing, he declared "Dude, that's retarded" To which the leader of Scientology replied "Is it any more retarded than a belief in Jesus? Or that there is a God who has created everything?" To which Stan replied, "yeah dude, it's way, way more retarded." Common sense should win out here, I doubt very much that your instincts tell you that there is any validity at all to the Theology of Scientologists Methane.
The common sense you speak of is nothing more than consistancy of knowledge. As the Christian religions are the most widespread in history, especially in the west, their teachings being commonplace do not seem as "out there" as these ones. The truth is, they are all along the same lines, which Methane is correct in identifying. Heck, even Mormons believe in a God that lives in another solar system on a planet near a planet called Kolob, who's God they can one day be exactly like, having their own "earth" and raising millions of spirit children to take the same test we are supposedly taking now.
The point is, Religious beliefs are different, to say one is "more" strange than another is simply an aesthetic objection based off of previous knowledge which has been pounded into your psyche. Logical reality is, Scientology is scary because of its ideologies about outsiders, its actions towards everyone, its long term goals, its beliefs about where they stand and how they are willing to accomplish those plans.
As much as I love Trey and Matt, you might want to step back and understand that although they do a lot to bring information to another generation of people they still are ultimately there to entertain, not to mention they still have their own bias points of view. If Scientology simply believed what they believed and did not declare war on, harm, and the plot the destruction of outsiders, while attempting to retain full control over those within their church all while planning the manipulation and overthrow of the current world governments, then, they wouldn't be deemed in any special way, just merely another religion, that was probably started by a man, feigning divine knowledge and contact with a God.
If everyone cannibalized eachother in our culture, it's very unlikely you would find it as appalling. The same goes for incest, beastiality, slavery, and genocide. Anything can become palatable if one is born into an accepting cultural structure which enforces said practices.
EDIT: Capitols in my post dont indicate anger. I was just trying to emphasize those words.. So dont please dont get defensive or anything about my post... There is no anger... infact I absolute love the discussion you are adding
Hey, I'm not defending the church or anything, but I'm not going to condemn them for acts that I am not even certain really happened. Do you have links to actual court documents that have convicted them of these crimes? www.lermanet.com/reference/77Granjurypart1.htm Grand Jury indictment of a couple of the folks that broke into the IRS including LRH's wife.
QUOTE:
COUNT ONE
THE CONSPIRACY, ITS OBJECT AND MEANS
Beginning on or about November 21, 1973, and continuing until
on or about May 27, 1977, within the District of Columbia and elsewhere,
the defendants MARY SUE HUBBARD, JANE KEMBER, MO BUDLONG,
HENNING HELDT, DUKE SNIDER, RICHARD WEIGAND, GREGORY
WILLARDSON, MITCHELL HERMANN, a/k/a MIKE COOPER, CINDY
RAYMOND and SHARON THOMAS, together with unindicted
co-conspirators Gerald Bennet Wolfe and Michael J. Meisner, and other
unindicted coonspirators both known and unknown to the Grand Jury,
willfully and knowingly did conspire, confederate, combine, and agree
together and with each other, to commit offenses against the
United States of America, that is, by various illegal and unlawful means
which are known to the Grand Jury that were used or attempted to be used
by the defendants and the unindicted co-conspirators were as follows:
To willfully and knowling steal, purloin and convert
to their own use records and things of value of the United
States and departments and agencies thereof, that is, documents
and photocopies thereof which were the property of the IRS,
the United States Department of Justice, and the Office of the
United States Attorney for the District of Columbia, in violation
of Title 18, United States Code, Section 641;
To willfully interceptand procure other personas to
intercept oral communications made during a meeting of agents
and employees of the IRS held at IRS headquarters
in the District of Columbia, in violation of Title 18, United
States Code, Section 2511(1) (a)
And before you say it.. No... it wasn't JUST a rag tag bunch of fundamentalists that were doing this.. The Documents that were used in this case to prove the illegal activities.. were documents they found at the CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY HEAD QUARTERS. The people arrested were the top most leaders of the org. I've heard the horror stories, hell I make jokes about them, but I also have heard of the things that other religions have done. The Salem witch trials ring a bell? So you're saying that if the Salem witch trials were held today you'd be FINE and DANDY with that? The Spanish Inquisition? So you're saying that if the Spanish Inquisition were held today you'd be FINE and DANDY with that? The Crusades? So you're saying that if the Crusades were held today you'd be FINE and DANDY with that? Religion is all about fanaticism. I'm not saying the Scientology is good, I'm not defending their practices. I know all about the boat trips where people would be tossed overboard, and I've watched videos of interveiws with the man himself where he claims to have knowledge of past lives. Kooky? Oh hell yeah, but have you ever seen the rituals of the Free Masons? Yeah, I have a copy of OT 3 myself. I know what they say. I know as well that L.Ron Hubbard was a science fiction writter, and it looks more like the plot outline for a book, than an actual religious document. I would never join the church myself, but they do have some very interesting ideas. People to this day mock Charles Darwin, even in the face of overwhelming evidence to support evolution. I'm not going to sit here and feed you validation just because you or someone you know have had problems with the church. I know all about the list of enemies, my cousin's name is on that list. Why? Because he's the one who dowloaded the copy of OT 3 that I now possess. He was stalked by the church longer than I was, and they even sent him a free copy of the Fundamentals of Thought. They've in no way done him harm. The worst they have done was to send him a letter telling him that they knew he has been frequenting 'subversive' sites, and if he wanted to learn about the church they would prefer it if he would come talk to them instead. Oooh...scary. I know about Lisa McPherson too, but I know that Christianity used to believe that they could cure insanity by beating the demons out of you.
So you're saying that if the beatings were held today you'd be FINE and DANDY with that? The introspection rundown is tame by comparison. The difference being.. That was THEN.. this stuff is happening RIGHT NOW with Scientology. RIGHT NOW When they pull a Jonestown, then I'll recant my words and say; "Well I guess I was wrong about the church." But until then, they don't really seem all that dangerous to me. So you don't think an organization that freely and without remorse breaks into Governments is.. not dangerous?
The FACT remains that These are things that are ILLEGAL TODAY!!
I can't say that.. hey .. since my ancestors had slaves.. its ok for me to have slaves TODAY
I can't say that.. hey.. since cavemen killed each other for power .. its ok for me to kill my supervisor
I can't say that.. hey.. Since This happened SomE time ago.. THAT DOES NOT JUSTIFY those actions today
THE FACT REMAINS.. that those actions were just Following the law of the land THEN... The things that Scientology is doing TODAY is illegal NOW!
Scientology is .. the religious organization that endorses expansion BY ANY MEANS NECCESSARY INCLUDING BREAKING THE LAW.. I CANNOT see how you consider that a non-threat..
I could not CARE LESS WHAT they believe in... The religion is FINE.... the Organization is dangerous.
What's your Wu Name? Donovan --> Wu Name = Violent Knight Methane47 --> Wu Name = Thunderous Leader "Some people call me the walking plank, 'cuz any where you go... Death is right behind you.." <i>ME<i>
Pardon me, but let me give you a brief picture from Southpark.
After Stan found out about what scientologists believe regarding Xenu and the whole genocide via volcano thing, he declared "Dude, that's retarded" To which the leader of Scientology replied "Is it any more retarded than a belief in Jesus? Or that there is a God who has created everything?" To which Stan replied, "yeah dude, it's way, way more retarded." Common sense should win out here, I doubt very much that your instincts tell you that there is any validity at all to the Theology of Scientologists Methane.
The common sense you speak of is nothing more than consistancy of knowledge. As the Christian religions are the most widespread in history, especially in the west, their teachings being commonplace do not seem as "out there" as these ones. The truth is, they are all along the same lines, which Methane is correct in identifying. Heck, even Mormons believe in a God that lives in another solar system on a planet near a planet called Kolob, who's God they can one day be exactly like, having their own "earth" and raising millions of spirit children to take the same test we are supposedly taking now.
The point is, Religious beliefs are different, to say one is "more" strange than another is simply an aesthetic objection based off of previous knowledge which has been pounded into your psyche. Logical reality is, Scientology is scary because of its ideologies about outsiders, its actions towards everyone, its long term goals, its beliefs about where they stand and how they are willing to accomplish those plans.
As much as I love Trey and Matt, you might want to step back and understand that although they do a lot to bring information to another generation of people they still are ultimately there to entertain, not to mention they still have their own bias points of view. If Scientology simply believed what they believed and did not declare war on, harm, and the plot the destruction of outsiders, while attempting to retain full control over those within their church all while planning the manipulation and overthrow of the current world governments, then, they wouldn't be deemed in any special way, just merely another religion, that was probably started by a man, feigning divine knowledge and contact with a God.
If everyone cannibalized eachother in our culture, it's very unlikely you would find it as appalling. The same goes for incest, beastiality, slavery, and genocide. Anything can become palatable if one is born into an accepting cultural structure which enforces said practices.
Well said.
So what you're saying is that everything religious is equally absurd. Despite that there are thousands of manuscripts dating back to Jesus' time that confirm at least some of what was in the New Testament (and disproving none of it)
You are comparing thousands of manuscripts of support to the writings of a child molester science fiction writer. Please use common sense. I know that you're probably agnostic, that doesn't mean that you can't be at least somewhat discriminating in your views on various religious beliefs and the validity of them.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
speaking of this , i just got a flier in the mail form the church asking me to buy this set of book that explains it all from before to forever ...
only 495$
wow.
it also had an invitation to attend some seminars going to be held all next month.
Anyone want the info?
i can go dig it out of the trash.
I thought it was funny , the timing of the letter i got and the flier and this post.
My wife had a question for you all those in this thread. She read this and said scientology looks stupid i agree , but so does almost everything posted in this thread and competely unbeleiveable. SO what she wants to know is unless you have ever been to one of these secret meetings how do you really know whats going on?
Isnt heresay the worst thing to form an opinion on and in criminal court an eye witness is usually the LEAST important evidence there is. She asked .. screw this im letting her type ...
How do you guys know this is not just some lunatic fringe group that got kicked out trying to deface something they only heard the barest part of whatever their message is?
I guess she cant picture Tom Cruise beheading someone or something.
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
Sorry to drop some Buddhism in this thread, but im in the mood at the moment.
As The Buddha said "Respect all religion, and their practices, that preach understanding, love and compassion" Scientology does not make the cut i am afraid.
L. Ron Hubbard has said that HE WAS ACTUALLY BUDDHA in a previous life!!
What's your Wu Name? Donovan --> Wu Name = Violent Knight Methane47 --> Wu Name = Thunderous Leader "Some people call me the walking plank, 'cuz any where you go... Death is right behind you.." <i>ME<i>
So what you're saying is that everything religious is equally absurd. Despite that there are thousands of manuscripts dating back to Jesus' time that confirm at least some of what was in the New Testament (and disproving none of it) You are comparing thousands of manuscripts of support to the writings of a child molester science fiction writer. Please use common sense. I know that you're probably agnostic, that doesn't mean that you can't be at least somewhat discriminating in your views on various religious beliefs and the validity of them.
I'm going to try to be a little nicer with responses today as I think I may have been a bit choleric over the past few days.
What I am saying is that all religions are equally absurd AND equally plausible. The amount of evidence supporting the likelihood of Bible personages existing means nothing to our argument, which is, whether the teachings of that religion are factual or likely factual. Nothing which would be considered extraordinary is "confirmed" by any record; Confirming whether Jesus was born of a virgin impregnated by the Holy Spirit, calmed the seas, spoke with the devil, brought the dead back to life, fed 5000 with 12 loaves of bread, turned water to wine, was resurrected after three days, or truly died for our sins is impossible to do. We can merely confirm that these stories, these tales, have been around for a lengthy peroid of time, but they do not cease being unprovable and possibly fiction, just like all the work of Ron Hubburd.
You are making the logical error of comparing writings that prove the age of a story with the validity of that story, the writings merely give us a time frame of their existence not any factual evidence that would prove the truth of it.
You are right, I am agnostic, and I'm far more discriminating than you, as I think I've proven time and time again, but I refuse to replace my valid logical conclusions with grade school assumptions. Your argument holds no water, I'll repeat, your argument is based on an aesthetic objection as you are more versed, aware, used to, one possible fiction than another, thus you are objecting to the less well known, aesthetically objective one on those grounds alone, you cannot prove one is less or more plausible than the other, and likewise whether one is more absurd.
The fact that I'm agnostic is the sole base of why I can't take a stance either way, as this is really no different than the battle between Atheists and Theists, they are both incorrect if they believe they can either logically or empirically prove the existence or non-existence of God, just as you are wrong to assume one religion is more provable / valid than another, it's just not a creditable argument.
This is why agnosticism will always win out over Theism or Atheism as far as proof is concerned.
Anyway, I feel my point is proven. I probably over stated the facts, repetitiveness is something that creeps in when I'm trying to explain a simple concept to someone who just won't think through what I'm stating. I hope you see the flaw in your logic, and I hope this response had a lot less venom than my usual ones, although I think my "attitude" still crept through here and there.
At this point in the conversation I usually make some caustic remark comparing Jesus to Santa Claus and the Easter bunny, but that ALWAYS, and I don't mean just sometimes but 100% of the time, results in me getting a warning from the moderators. *laughing*
So I'm not gonna do it.
Most of you obviously feel strongly about your positions, where as I am just sticking up for the new kid who everyone seems to want to pick on.
It always seems to be the families of the people in the church that are making such a fuss, rarely is it the people themselves. Is that because they are brainwashed, or because they understand what is going on better than those watching from the outside through their tainted glasses? I don't know because I'm not personally involved, but just as much, I am not going to judge for the same reason.
The only thing I could possibly do at this point is launch attacks at people in the hopes that they will back down from a situation that they feel stronger about than I do, and that's not going to do anything but cause bad feelings. Not only that but since I am obviously in the minority, I am fighting a losing battle. The only thing that made me say anything at all is my dislike of prejudice, and that is what I feel is the major issue here. But you guys know more about the whole thing than I do, so I'm of no further use to the conversation.
At this point in the conversation I usually make some caustic remark comparing Jesus to Santa Claus and the Easter bunny, but that ALWAYS, and I don't mean just sometimes but 100% of the time, results in me getting a warning from the moderators. *laughing* So I'm not gonna do it. Most of you obviously feel strongly about your positions, where as I am just sticking up for the new kid who everyone seems to want to pick on. It always seems to be the families of the people in the church that are making such a fuss, rarely is it the people themselves. Is that because they are brainwashed, or because they understand what is going on better than those watching from the outside through their tainted glasses? I don't know because I'm not personally involved, but just as much, I am not going to judge for the same reason. The only thing I could possibly do at this point is launch attacks at people in the hopes that they will back down from a situation that they feel stronger about than I do, and that's not going to do anything but cause bad feelings. Not only that but since I am obviously in the minority, I am fighting a losing battle. The only thing that made me say anything at all is my dislike of prejudice, and that is what I feel is the major issue here. But you guys know more about the whole thing than I do, so I'm of no further use to the conversation. Call me a Conscientious Objector.
And I EMPLORE you to watch especially the videos from Tory (Bezazian) Christman.
What's your Wu Name? Donovan --> Wu Name = Violent Knight Methane47 --> Wu Name = Thunderous Leader "Some people call me the walking plank, 'cuz any where you go... Death is right behind you.." <i>ME<i>
Originally posted by tunabun I'm going to try to be a little nicer with responses today as I think I may have been a bit choleric over the past few days. What I am saying is that all religions are equally absurd AND equally plausible. The amount of evidence supporting the likelihood of Bible personages existing means nothing to our argument, which is, whether the teachings of that religion are factual or likely factual. Nothing which would be considered extraordinary is "confirmed" by any record; Confirming whether Jesus was born of a virgin impregnated by the Holy Spirit, Check out this video of a Scientologist CONFIRMING that Mary was a virgin!! video.google.com/videoplay Good part starts at the 18min mark in the video He Also says that he was Jesus's REAL father lol paradox you say? WATCH THE VIDEO and listen to what he says LOL... MUST WATCH. (Note this guy believes in Scientology but he was kicked out of the church after he refused the generous offer given to him by the Church that if he killed his shrink and then committed suicide, that They would give him a FULL scholarship in his next life) This guy at the time had the 2nd largest library of Scientology material in the world, I dont know what has become of him now though This guy is REALLY interesting. There are 7 videos of him if you want to know. calmed the seas, spoke with the devil, brought the dead back to life, fed 5000 with 12 loaves of bread, turned water to wine, was resurrected after three days, or truly died for our sins is impossible to do. We can merely confirm that these stories, these tales, have been around for a lengthy peroid of time, but they do not cease being unprovable and possibly fiction, just like all the work of Ron Hubburd. You are making the logical error of comparing writings that prove the age of a story with the validity of that story, the writings merely give us a time frame of their existence not any factual evidence that would prove the truth of it.
I agree...
But doesn't Scientology just put a pinch of skepticism when the sacred texts say that 75 million years ago .. humans were brought to earth on DC8's?
You HAVE to admit.. that chances of there being DC8's 75 million years ago is slim to none
(yes I know that this argument hits alittle below the belt )
What's your Wu Name? Donovan --> Wu Name = Violent Knight Methane47 --> Wu Name = Thunderous Leader "Some people call me the walking plank, 'cuz any where you go... Death is right behind you.." <i>ME<i>
But doesn't Scientology just put a pinch of skepticism when the sacred texts say that 75 million years ago .. humans were brought to earth on DC8's?
You HAVE to admit.. that chances of there being DC8's 75 million years ago is slim to none (yes I know that this argument hits alittle below the belt )
YOU FOOL!!!!!!
They were ROCKET SHIPS that LOOKED like DC8's.
I wont listen to your pro Xenu Propoganda now as have a protective book i got from scientology that only cost me £1500 and i know it works because my doctor said it would for an additional £2,000 fee and a E reading.
So now my Thetens wont get harmed by your evil lies.
Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981
On a completely different topic tho. Every time i read this topics title i keep on mis-reading the word Scientology with Scatology
Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981
I feel that 4chan is trying to do something right with their war on scientology, it was all crap anyways from the start. Mr. Fetch's videos on youtube talk about how Anonymous is being considered "terrorists" also seems like a load of crap, I feel that only HE alone views them as terrorists, maybe he himself is a scientologist. I would consider joining this war... I am sick of watching religion corrupt and destroy innocent people by making them do things that the religion wants to do, not the people themselves. Why has Scientology not been recognized, seen as a terrorist threat? This goes for a few other religions as well... the evil has to stop somewhere right? Let the people thnik for themselves?
Originally posted by ste2000 I cannot believe there is people who genuinely believe in Scientology, other than making money out of it.I mean, a Sci-Fi B-movie has better storyline. Scientology is just a joke, stop talking about it, and when Tom Cruise dies, we won't hear of this cult anymore.
Just as a little comment I don't genuinely believe how people can believe in any form of religion, except maybe buddhism. Don't start discussing this however, but just shows that it's not that hard to believe in something that's considered madness by others.
I don't like to be bias against any religion, but this really is a bad one to get involved with. They will never leave you alone once they get your name. Anyone considering this religion, seriously find something else.
Your mind is like a parachute, it's only useful when it's open. Don't forget, you can use the block function on trolls.
The working theory right now is that these are all the files containing the personal information the COS gains from members during audits to later use for blackmail.
What's your Wu Name? Donovan --> Wu Name = Violent Knight Methane47 --> Wu Name = Thunderous Leader "Some people call me the walking plank, 'cuz any where you go... Death is right behind you.." <i>ME<i>
After watching some of this stuff and reading articles I have to wonder, did L . Ron really die of natural causes?
I mean I wonder how much the CoS was worth at the time of his death.
If he say was having a change of heart after spending a few years in jail over the coruption, would he maybe be risking the success of the church?
Just a thought.
Also I never bought the argument that all religions are bad, they do more good than harm. All those wars and bad deeds associated to religions would have just happened for some other reason. Those are a result of living on a planet with limited resources and wanting to have your particualr group be the strongest, human nature. Which is also why communism will never work, but I'm getting off on a tangent...
Crap I usually never talk about politics and religion and I do both in this post..
Honestly I respect peoples beliefs and all, but after I watched that panorama episode I believe if those people are representative of that cult because it certainly is not a religion, then they are a collection of hypocrites and to be honest a lot of them seem to need anger management lessons especially the nut job that was following the BBC crew around.
And by hypocrites I mean they are trying to portray a belief that revolves around positive thoughts a good way of life from what I gathered, and there they are hunting down and belating people who do not believe in them or ask appropriate questions. Such as why they think they are a religion when others say it is a cult, is that not a perfectly ligitamate and unoffensive question?
A true religious organisation would not act in the way that those people in the video are portrayed. If a hater so to speak were to talk with the pope, or a muslim cleric about their religion then they would explain to you why they believe it, they would not spy on you, harass you, follow you around and complain when you ask a simple question like the one above.
I have no respect for anyone who tries to force their beliefs on others or tries to belate those that do not agree with them which is all that these people seem to be doing. I am sure that they are a minority but when these are the "higher ups" of the cult then its hard to think that the majority of them are open minded, non offensive etc.
Lastly what kind of religious organisation would copy right their book, that is why they are considered a cult. A true religious organisation would be happy for their book, for example the bible to be openly avaible for people to read and comment on so that they could make their own mind up. Sure they might not like what is being said but do you see then harassing people over it? nope mostly it is peaceful and non offensive protest. Of course every religion has it zealots.
I cannot believe there is people who genuinely believe in Scientology, other than making money out of it.
I mean, a Sci-Fi B-movie has better storyline.
Scientology is just a joke, stop talking about it, and when Tom Cruise dies, we won't hear of this cult anymore.
Just as a little comment I don't genuinely believe how people can believe in any form of religion, except maybe buddhism. Don't start discussing this however, but just shows that it's not that hard to believe in something that's considered madness by others.
My point was exactly that.
Already religions are kinda absurd for people who don't have a faith that explains all the "miracles" and contraddiction of the sacred books...........but scientology cult is built on a bad piece of sci-fi script.
At least whoever wrote the Bible or the Koran made a big effort, c'mon you must admit that 2000 years ago something like the Bible was a masterpiece (and still is, if not just for literature merits)
But Scientology "script" is just shit, I could come up with something better during my daily visit to the toilet while expelling my daily turd.
UHOH... man this is really getting scarey.. some real matrix type crap going on here The church of Scientology ANSWERS with their own hackers http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHFqNySAiR4
they fricking call out 4chan, YTMD ebaumsworld and Something Aweful
Nah. The regime is just some random group of hackers that brought down 711chan for a week. The message they posted on the front page said they didn't care about scientology and were just hacking 711chan because they didn't like anonymous. Then the g00ns from SA hacked their website and brought that down.
Wow.. So apparently the IRS may have some issues on their hands.. Scientologists get tax breaks for their training they undergo.. So why don't Jewish parents get tax breaks for sending their kids to jewish schools? Apparently that's the issue at hand.. And this will either turn out bad for the IRS or bad for Scientologists..
A Jewish couple's bid to take a tax deduction they say the Internal Revenue Service reserves only for members of the Church of Scientology is getting a friendly reception from a federal appeals court, increasing the possibility of a ruling that could create a tax break for taxpayers of many religions who pay tuition to religious schools.
"The view of the IRS is it can unconstitutionally violate the Constitution by establishing religion, by treating one religion more favorably than other religions in terms of what is allowed as deductions, and there can never be any judicial review of that?" Judge Kim Wardlaw asked at the court session Monday in Pasadena, Calif.
What's your Wu Name? Donovan --> Wu Name = Violent Knight Methane47 --> Wu Name = Thunderous Leader "Some people call me the walking plank, 'cuz any where you go... Death is right behind you.." <i>ME<i>
What's your Wu Name? Donovan --> Wu Name = Violent Knight Methane47 --> Wu Name = Thunderous Leader "Some people call me the walking plank, 'cuz any where you go... Death is right behind you.." <i>ME<i>
Comments
The common sense you speak of is nothing more than consistancy of knowledge. As the Christian religions are the most widespread in history, especially in the west, their teachings being commonplace do not seem as "out there" as these ones. The truth is, they are all along the same lines, which Methane is correct in identifying. Heck, even Mormons believe in a God that lives in another solar system on a planet near a planet called Kolob, who's God they can one day be exactly like, having their own "earth" and raising millions of spirit children to take the same test we are supposedly taking now.
The point is, Religious beliefs are different, to say one is "more" strange than another is simply an aesthetic objection based off of previous knowledge which has been pounded into your psyche. Logical reality is, Scientology is scary because of its ideologies about outsiders, its actions towards everyone, its long term goals, its beliefs about where they stand and how they are willing to accomplish those plans.
As much as I love Trey and Matt, you might want to step back and understand that although they do a lot to bring information to another generation of people they still are ultimately there to entertain, not to mention they still have their own bias points of view. If Scientology simply believed what they believed and did not declare war on, harm, and the plot the destruction of outsiders, while attempting to retain full control over those within their church all while planning the manipulation and overthrow of the current world governments, then, they wouldn't be deemed in any special way, just merely another religion, that was probably started by a man, feigning divine knowledge and contact with a God.
If everyone cannibalized eachother in our culture, it's very unlikely you would find it as appalling. The same goes for incest, beastiality, slavery, and genocide. Anything can become palatable if one is born into an accepting cultural structure which enforces said practices.
Well said.
The FACT remains that These are things that are ILLEGAL TODAY!!
I can't say that.. hey .. since my ancestors had slaves.. its ok for me to have slaves TODAY
I can't say that.. hey.. since cavemen killed each other for power .. its ok for me to kill my supervisor
I can't say that.. hey.. Since This happened SomE time ago.. THAT DOES NOT JUSTIFY those actions today
THE FACT REMAINS.. that those actions were just Following the law of the land THEN... The things that Scientology is doing TODAY is illegal NOW!
Scientology is .. the religious organization that endorses expansion BY ANY MEANS NECCESSARY INCLUDING BREAKING THE LAW.. I CANNOT see how you consider that a non-threat..
I could not CARE LESS WHAT they believe in... The religion is FINE.... the Organization is dangerous.
What's your Wu Name?
Donovan --> Wu Name = Violent Knight
Methane47 --> Wu Name = Thunderous Leader
"Some people call me the walking plank, 'cuz any where you go... Death is right behind you.."
<i>ME<i>
The common sense you speak of is nothing more than consistancy of knowledge. As the Christian religions are the most widespread in history, especially in the west, their teachings being commonplace do not seem as "out there" as these ones. The truth is, they are all along the same lines, which Methane is correct in identifying. Heck, even Mormons believe in a God that lives in another solar system on a planet near a planet called Kolob, who's God they can one day be exactly like, having their own "earth" and raising millions of spirit children to take the same test we are supposedly taking now.
The point is, Religious beliefs are different, to say one is "more" strange than another is simply an aesthetic objection based off of previous knowledge which has been pounded into your psyche. Logical reality is, Scientology is scary because of its ideologies about outsiders, its actions towards everyone, its long term goals, its beliefs about where they stand and how they are willing to accomplish those plans.
As much as I love Trey and Matt, you might want to step back and understand that although they do a lot to bring information to another generation of people they still are ultimately there to entertain, not to mention they still have their own bias points of view. If Scientology simply believed what they believed and did not declare war on, harm, and the plot the destruction of outsiders, while attempting to retain full control over those within their church all while planning the manipulation and overthrow of the current world governments, then, they wouldn't be deemed in any special way, just merely another religion, that was probably started by a man, feigning divine knowledge and contact with a God.
If everyone cannibalized eachother in our culture, it's very unlikely you would find it as appalling. The same goes for incest, beastiality, slavery, and genocide. Anything can become palatable if one is born into an accepting cultural structure which enforces said practices.
Well said.
So what you're saying is that everything religious is equally absurd. Despite that there are thousands of manuscripts dating back to Jesus' time that confirm at least some of what was in the New Testament (and disproving none of it)
You are comparing thousands of manuscripts of support to the writings of a child molester science fiction writer. Please use common sense. I know that you're probably agnostic, that doesn't mean that you can't be at least somewhat discriminating in your views on various religious beliefs and the validity of them.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
speaking of this , i just got a flier in the mail form the church asking me to buy this set of book that explains it all from before to forever ...
only 495$
wow.
it also had an invitation to attend some seminars going to be held all next month.
Anyone want the info?
i can go dig it out of the trash.
I thought it was funny , the timing of the letter i got and the flier and this post.
My wife had a question for you all those in this thread. She read this and said scientology looks stupid i agree , but so does almost everything posted in this thread and competely unbeleiveable. SO what she wants to know is unless you have ever been to one of these secret meetings how do you really know whats going on?
Isnt heresay the worst thing to form an opinion on and in criminal court an eye witness is usually the LEAST important evidence there is. She asked .. screw this im letting her type ...
How do you guys know this is not just some lunatic fringe group that got kicked out trying to deface something they only heard the barest part of whatever their message is?
I guess she cant picture Tom Cruise beheading someone or something.
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
she is actually on the other computer looking at some stuff now ...
i think she is upset , really upset.
she is an old school tom cruise fan ( hell we are both old)
1st heath ledger dies now tm cruise is an idiot ...
im pretty sure she is going to need jewerly soon.
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
L. Ron Hubbard has said that HE WAS ACTUALLY BUDDHA in a previous life!!
What's your Wu Name?
Donovan --> Wu Name = Violent Knight
Methane47 --> Wu Name = Thunderous Leader
"Some people call me the walking plank, 'cuz any where you go... Death is right behind you.."
<i>ME<i>
I'm going to try to be a little nicer with responses today as I think I may have been a bit choleric over the past few days.
What I am saying is that all religions are equally absurd AND equally plausible. The amount of evidence supporting the likelihood of Bible personages existing means nothing to our argument, which is, whether the teachings of that religion are factual or likely factual. Nothing which would be considered extraordinary is "confirmed" by any record; Confirming whether Jesus was born of a virgin impregnated by the Holy Spirit, calmed the seas, spoke with the devil, brought the dead back to life, fed 5000 with 12 loaves of bread, turned water to wine, was resurrected after three days, or truly died for our sins is impossible to do. We can merely confirm that these stories, these tales, have been around for a lengthy peroid of time, but they do not cease being unprovable and possibly fiction, just like all the work of Ron Hubburd.
You are making the logical error of comparing writings that prove the age of a story with the validity of that story, the writings merely give us a time frame of their existence not any factual evidence that would prove the truth of it.
You are right, I am agnostic, and I'm far more discriminating than you, as I think I've proven time and time again, but I refuse to replace my valid logical conclusions with grade school assumptions. Your argument holds no water, I'll repeat, your argument is based on an aesthetic objection as you are more versed, aware, used to, one possible fiction than another, thus you are objecting to the less well known, aesthetically objective one on those grounds alone, you cannot prove one is less or more plausible than the other, and likewise whether one is more absurd.
The fact that I'm agnostic is the sole base of why I can't take a stance either way, as this is really no different than the battle between Atheists and Theists, they are both incorrect if they believe they can either logically or empirically prove the existence or non-existence of God, just as you are wrong to assume one religion is more provable / valid than another, it's just not a creditable argument.
This is why agnosticism will always win out over Theism or Atheism as far as proof is concerned.
Possibly my favourite argumentation on this subject by mranenome.
Anyway, I feel my point is proven. I probably over stated the facts, repetitiveness is something that creeps in when I'm trying to explain a simple concept to someone who just won't think through what I'm stating. I hope you see the flaw in your logic, and I hope this response had a lot less venom than my usual ones, although I think my "attitude" still crept through here and there.
- Burying Threads Since 1979 -
So I'm not gonna do it.
Most of you obviously feel strongly about your positions, where as I am just sticking up for the new kid who everyone seems to want to pick on.
It always seems to be the families of the people in the church that are making such a fuss, rarely is it the people themselves. Is that because they are brainwashed, or because they understand what is going on better than those watching from the outside through their tainted glasses? I don't know because I'm not personally involved, but just as much, I am not going to judge for the same reason.
The only thing I could possibly do at this point is launch attacks at people in the hopes that they will back down from a situation that they feel stronger about than I do, and that's not going to do anything but cause bad feelings. Not only that but since I am obviously in the minority, I am fighting a losing battle. The only thing that made me say anything at all is my dislike of prejudice, and that is what I feel is the major issue here. But you guys know more about the whole thing than I do, so I'm of no further use to the conversation.
Call me a Conscientious Objector.
For some insight from ex-members of the church itself.. Check out this link xenutv.com/interviews/index.html
And I EMPLORE you to watch especially the videos from Tory (Bezazian) Christman.
What's your Wu Name?
Donovan --> Wu Name = Violent Knight
Methane47 --> Wu Name = Thunderous Leader
"Some people call me the walking plank, 'cuz any where you go... Death is right behind you.."
<i>ME<i>
But doesn't Scientology just put a pinch of skepticism when the sacred texts say that 75 million years ago .. humans were brought to earth on DC8's?
You HAVE to admit.. that chances of there being DC8's 75 million years ago is slim to none
(yes I know that this argument hits alittle below the belt
)
What's your Wu Name?
Donovan --> Wu Name = Violent Knight
Methane47 --> Wu Name = Thunderous Leader
"Some people call me the walking plank, 'cuz any where you go... Death is right behind you.."
<i>ME<i>
They were ROCKET SHIPS that LOOKED like DC8's.
I wont listen to your pro Xenu Propoganda now as have a protective book i got from scientology that only cost me £1500 and i know it works because my doctor said it would for an additional £2,000 fee and a E reading.
So now my Thetens wont get harmed by your evil lies.
Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981
On a completely different topic tho. Every time i read this topics title i keep on mis-reading the word Scientology with Scatology
Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981
I feel that 4chan is trying to do something right with their war on scientology, it was all crap anyways from the start. Mr. Fetch's videos on youtube talk about how Anonymous is being considered "terrorists" also seems like a load of crap, I feel that only HE alone views them as terrorists, maybe he himself is a scientologist. I would consider joining this war... I am sick of watching religion corrupt and destroy innocent people by making them do things that the religion wants to do, not the people themselves. Why has Scientology not been recognized, seen as a terrorist threat? This goes for a few other religions as well... the evil has to stop somewhere right? Let the people thnik for themselves?
To the person above me, wtf are you some scatfag?
36min Scientology orientation video
just saved you $3500.
I cannot believe there is people who genuinely believe in Scientology, other than making money out of it.
I mean, a Sci-Fi B-movie has better storyline.
Scientology is just a joke, stop talking about it, and when Tom Cruise dies, we won't hear of this cult anymore.
Just as a little comment I don't genuinely believe how people can believe in any form of religion, except maybe buddhism. Don't start discussing this however, but just shows that it's not that hard to believe in something that's considered madness by others.
I don't like to be bias against any religion, but this really is a bad one to get involved with. They will never leave you alone once they get your name. Anyone considering this religion, seriously find something else.
Your mind is like a parachute, it's only useful when it's open.
Don't forget, you can use the block function on trolls.
digg.com/world_news/147_Flordians_protest_Scientology
Video of a protest of the Orlando Church.. 147 people showed up.
And also
Looks like the COS is getting scared; caught on camera in Australia, possibly hiding/destroying evidence:
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=uNAbez5vViA
The working theory right now is that these are all the files containing the personal information the COS gains from members during audits to later use for blackmail.
What's your Wu Name?
Donovan --> Wu Name = Violent Knight
Methane47 --> Wu Name = Thunderous Leader
"Some people call me the walking plank, 'cuz any where you go... Death is right behind you.."
<i>ME<i>
After watching some of this stuff and reading articles I have to wonder, did L . Ron really die of natural causes?
I mean I wonder how much the CoS was worth at the time of his death.
If he say was having a change of heart after spending a few years in jail over the coruption, would he maybe be risking the success of the church?
Just a thought.
Also I never bought the argument that all religions are bad, they do more good than harm. All those wars and bad deeds associated to religions would have just happened for some other reason. Those are a result of living on a planet with limited resources and wanting to have your particualr group be the strongest, human nature. Which is also why communism will never work, but I'm getting off on a tangent...
Crap I usually never talk about politics and religion and I do both in this post..
------------------------------------
Honestly I respect peoples beliefs and all, but after I watched that panorama episode I believe if those people are representative of that cult because it certainly is not a religion, then they are a collection of hypocrites and to be honest a lot of them seem to need anger management lessons especially the nut job that was following the BBC crew around.
And by hypocrites I mean they are trying to portray a belief that revolves around positive thoughts a good way of life from what I gathered, and there they are hunting down and belating people who do not believe in them or ask appropriate questions. Such as why they think they are a religion when others say it is a cult, is that not a perfectly ligitamate and unoffensive question?
A true religious organisation would not act in the way that those people in the video are portrayed. If a hater so to speak were to talk with the pope, or a muslim cleric about their religion then they would explain to you why they believe it, they would not spy on you, harass you, follow you around and complain when you ask a simple question like the one above.
I have no respect for anyone who tries to force their beliefs on others or tries to belate those that do not agree with them which is all that these people seem to be doing. I am sure that they are a minority but when these are the "higher ups" of the cult then its hard to think that the majority of them are open minded, non offensive etc.
Lastly what kind of religious organisation would copy right their book, that is why they are considered a cult. A true religious organisation would be happy for their book, for example the bible to be openly avaible for people to read and comment on so that they could make their own mind up. Sure they might not like what is being said but do you see then harassing people over it? nope mostly it is peaceful and non offensive protest. Of course every religion has it zealots.
Just as a little comment I don't genuinely believe how people can believe in any form of religion, except maybe buddhism. Don't start discussing this however, but just shows that it's not that hard to believe in something that's considered madness by others.
My point was exactly that.
Already religions are kinda absurd for people who don't have a faith that explains all the "miracles" and contraddiction of the sacred books...........but scientology cult is built on a bad piece of sci-fi script.
At least whoever wrote the Bible or the Koran made a big effort, c'mon you must admit that 2000 years ago something like the Bible was a masterpiece (and still is, if not just for literature merits)
But Scientology "script" is just shit, I could come up with something better during my daily visit to the toilet while expelling my daily turd.
Wow.. So apparently the IRS may have some issues on their hands.. Scientologists get tax breaks for their training they undergo.. So why don't Jewish parents get tax breaks for sending their kids to jewish schools? Apparently that's the issue at hand.. And this will either turn out bad for the IRS or bad for Scientologists..
Read the full article here.
www.nysun.com/article/70957
Some choice quotes
What's your Wu Name?
Donovan --> Wu Name = Violent Knight
Methane47 --> Wu Name = Thunderous Leader
"Some people call me the walking plank, 'cuz any where you go... Death is right behind you.."
<i>ME<i>
The Big protest is going down tommorow guys...
Just wanted to remind you.
What's your Wu Name?
Donovan --> Wu Name = Violent Knight
Methane47 --> Wu Name = Thunderous Leader
"Some people call me the walking plank, 'cuz any where you go... Death is right behind you.."
<i>ME<i>
Big Protest videos:
Melbourne: ie.youtube.com/watch
Sydney: sydney.indymedia.org.au/story/anonymous-confronts-church-scientology
London: uk.youtube.com/watch
uk.youtube.com/watch