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MMORPGs going downhill
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Sorry your favourite way of playing isn't represented in the current crop of MMOs, but you can always go back and play what was before...wait they've been 'dumbed down' too. The horrors of living in a society that has a form of capitalism as the basis for production of goods and services. The market forces drive these games, and guess what? They respond.
Venting is fine, purposely insulting people just because you're POd is just trolling. I know I'm feeding the trolls, but it's lunchtime and too cold to go outside. Need to do something to keep me amused.
Since we pretty much all are venting our personal likes and dislikes instead of actual facts i'll post mine.
I dislike it when people say a game doesn't take skill because it doesn't take two years to get to max level ala EQ.
I dislike it when people say a game is dumbed down because they can't be the only guy with the vorpal sword of rabbit slaying on their server.
I dislike it when people say they hate time sinks but also hate pvp without losses and setbacks that create time sinks.
Everyone copies World of Warcraft because its the first mmorpg to ever be produce in the industry.
Obviously, the OP is an idiot that doesn't realize that WoWbecame WoW by copying from Warhammer,
and other mmorpg's that were made before WoW. The only reason why people compare WoW to everything is because that's their first mmorpg, they expect every mmorpg to be exactly, dumb downed, and gear centric just-like Wow; yes WoW is the benchmark of mmorpg because of the popularity.
There's countless mmorpg's companies that are creating an MMORPG as we speak and ain't following the ways of World of warcraft - The creator of the LOTRO tried to copy WoW and the game isn't that great. There's two great games that are being produced at the moment - Age of conan and Warhammer online - they're not following the footsteps of World of warcraft. I would say Age of Conan is following R.H books, and Warhammer: Guild wars, and DAOC, so lets stop this "Other games are copying WoW" it's false and a lie.
Anyways, I think WoW sucks.
How can people whine about MMO's being WoW clones when games like CoX and Pirates of the Burning Sea are out? How can people whine about how much better Ultima Online was when they could go play Ultima Online right now?
I have been playing MMO's since the early days of "get all corpse" and I have to say that WoW was a huge improvement on the genre and MMO's have moved way beyond Diku mud's with graphics in the past couple of years.
I do have to say that every time I hear someone lament the loss of PKing on Ultima Online, I have to laugh. The player killers in UO drove that game into the ground and the fiasco has made UO a cautionary example for other games. Not only did the player killers wreck their favorite game, they made sure that nobody will ever make a game like UO again.
Lol @ Reklaw..
Yeah i have notice that people that are new to games do play MMO's like that...unfortunaly...again my opinion.
Yes, people play WoW PvE with add-ons. "new to games". If you don't use addons your guild is garbage and you probably only beat instances on sheer luck. The fact is they are needed and without them you won't go anywhere except maybe newbie zones.
Their pvp system is just a diablo 2 clone. Make a character, a build, and it might be good vs certain classes, and garbage vs others. The whole talent tree is idiotic. Everyone should be on a level playing field and player skill not build should determine outcome of fights. It's too bad they couldn't balance classes so put in the idiotic talent tree's to overpower classes vs certain other ones and weaken it vs others.
People who want the game to be solely about time investments are just newbies. I dont know why they play games even. If you're going to play really long and still suck then you're kind of pathetic if you need a garbage MMORPG like WoW to feel good. At least some of the other MMORPGs are balanced in terms of skill and not just about grinding
Name in WoW? and it's meaningless. In EQ, if someone pisses you off, you can kill them no matter what, except if they are in bazaar or something. Look at WoW, it's just a bluebie game where nothing you do matters and where no one cares about dying etc. because the lack of any real pvp system. There is no such thing as a community because you can just transfer between them for $35. You dont fight people on your own server usually, just people in a certain battlegroup. WoW is the only MMO ive played with such a blue pvp system
Why? Because WoW is designed to only cater to hardcore needs and hardcore playing habits. It's designed to make loot and level grinding the only things worth doing, and rewards hardcore templating, powerclan membership, and TS/vent use.
Roleplay tools, crafting, and immersion take a backseat to levelling and looting, meaning that the game really only appeals to the achiever segment at the expense of the other dispositions that typically play MMOs.
And the reason I feel safe in saying that WoW has catered to the hardcore is the rise of worlds such as Second Life, which appeal to non-gamers, with no rigidly discernable goals or achievement benchmarks like rankings, stats, or levels.
I'm sure a lot of those Second Lifers would like a new virtual setting to visit. The only problem is that the places like WoW have no room for creative expression or user determined goals. All of this can be traced back to the attitude that has become commonplace in today's MMO landscape: that if you aren't pursuing combat/exp/loots, you aren't having fun.
More hardcore? What do you call hardcore then?
I guess you would define it as a game that is a timesink piece of garbage where you arent penalized for anything?
I'd argue that WoW is a softcore newbie game which is why it's so successful. You don't lose anything, so you can play like garbage and you arent penalized. You can keep raiding zones, pvping, and every time you can die and you still won't lose anything except durability.
The game is basically for people who couldn't handle a real MMORPG so they need some game where you can't possibly screw anything up. It's for people who couldn't handle the challenges of the older generation of MMORPGs where bosses actually required complex strategies, and where you don't get infinite retries on everything. But WoW is just "give them their own zone and let them keep trying"
WoW is the big MMORPG, whether you want to whine about it copying some game that was not even released.. I dont care
From what it looks like, WAR is using a lot of the same concepts from WoW. Since they didn't have the MMORPG developed, how is WAR not copying WoW? Just because they had some lore or whatever that was used.. what a joke. MMORPGs and lore are way different. I dont think ill play WAR because it looks exactly like WoW and it's catering to the same immature audience (players like you clearly)
And I have been played many MMORPGs and WoW was not my first. If you were old enough to read you would have read this thread but clearly you can only respond with random insults.
I compare WoW to everything because look at all the game companies who use WoW as a starting poijnt for where their MMORPG should be. I think TR copied WoW heavily and that's why the game failed miserably.
Lets watch the overhyped WAR which is a WoW clone fail as well. There is no way you're gonna create a game like WoW and expect to topple it now that it has all the content that it does.
The only thing these companies should do is focus on making a new MMORPG that does not rehash the same concepts we've seen in post WoW MMORPGs.
I'm sick of seeing softcore MMORPGs like WoW that just care about your time investments.
I'm also sick of MMORPGs that cut the raid limit down so far that it means you are farming the same instance over and over and over for gear. It's like doing baal runs in D2, except in an instance.
I think there is some hope for some good mmo games but I think that games such as AOC and WAR are extremely overhyped due to the fact that people are wanting the next best thing. Both will really be alternatives for those who aren't playing WOW, EQ2, Lineage 2. Not to mention that WAR is going to be pvp centric which never has a long lasting appealing on the mmo community.
I think 2009 will be the best year for mmo games. Guild Wars 2, Bioware mmo, Stargate Worlds and Blizzard will hopefully tell us about their next-gen mmo soon. Heck who knows, if they even finish Hero's Journey that game maybe be pretty good was well. See so there is hope for better mmo games nut unfortunately at the moment it seems to be more quantity than quality.
Most of the old strats in games of old were simply tank and spank fights with a tiny bit of variance here and there. You might have to deal with a few targets in a fight or use geometry to your advantage, but that is about as complex as most got. For the most part they were just one big gear check after another.
I have been far more impressed at the boss fights offered by WoW in dungeons and raids compared to most old game encounters. The scripting and logic is much better for variety and creativity of encounter and simply put, fun factor.
There is no incentive for PvE in WoW. So even if you think PvE is challenging, what is the point when some skill-less newb honor grinder can get better gear from doing BGs a few hours a day?
No one even wants to do PvE in WoW because of what they did with their idiotic BG system.
Going Downhill?????
They have gone downhill.....
Reached the bottom and kept going....
They are now somewhere in the gutter.......
I love angry nerd threads. This forum would be nothing without a few elitist types puffing up their chests and going on the rampage.
Im amazed you wasted all that time playing a game you hate so much.Why even play it then and support the exact thing your crusade is against? i didnt particularly like dark eden,but i didnt keep playing it,i just uninstalled. If you want to see 5-10 year olds,play an open pvp game for a few months,you'd be astounded at how retarded some people actually are.
Take a deep breath,a large claw hammer and smash your wow box into tiny pieces and promise youll never raid again.
I don't care if someone gets better gear doing something else. I play for enjoyment first and really don't care about gear a vs gear b. Plus having multiple avenues to chose progression for your character is a GOOD thing. I don't enjoy arena combat so I don't do it regardless of the rewards, but more power to those who do.
Really I don't expect perfection in equality of loot between PvP rewards, crafting, PvE and the number of other paths offered. Times are changing for MMO and this is going to be considered as a crude implementation in the next 5-10 years as EQ was when it launched when looked at now. Plenty of fun at the time, but with hindsight the flaws will be obvious as new games improve and perfect the concepts we are seeing develop now.
WAR and AoC look promising. But without item decay and high turnover of equipment I fear the PVP will eventually be ruined by 'uber items'. Guild Wars, not-quite-an-MMO, dealt with this problem using a Brute force solution- give pvpers the best gear. I like that solution as well of course. City of Heroes- the devs added more and more items as the game aged. Still, last time I played the loot was handled much better then other games. The difference between a raider and a casual wasn't too horrible
Hopefully both of those titles (aoC/WAR) will try to deal with loot much better then what we saw in World of Warcraft. It got to the point if you were greens/blues- you'd get melted by someone using high tier epix really fast. Of course now they have the Arenas but back when I played there was no feasible alternative for PVPers to acquire good gear to compete
People keep talking about WAR everywhere I go now. Makes me wonder if there is some information being leaked out of beta or something cause everyone seems to be beaming about it lately....
EACH PERSON is entitled to his view. There are many that played WoW and 9M still paying to play it. That is some substantial number, and also the lion's share of MMORPG. Yes there are many billion christians, more than the number of WoW subscribers. So what? There are also many more billion ants. So what? Irrelevant statistics. Why compare the population of christians to population of WoW players, why not compare population of WoW players to that of VG? You are manipulating numbers and comparing totally irrelavant numbers. Bad use of statistics, very bad indeed.
Apart from using wrong comparison, you keep creating new definitions. You have not yet defined what a real PVP is apart from vague statements like PVP with costs. Who says that everyone wants PVP with costs, and what costs? PVP that will cut off your arm when you lose? PVP that will permanently kill your avatar when you lose? PVP that would strip you of all gear when you lose? PVP that will force you to go back to the grave and wait for 20 sec before rejoining? Every game has a different way of implementing PVP penalties. You have your idea about what you like, that does not make it REAL, nor does that make the others FAKE. You are trying to pass on your idea as the truth, as if your view and your view alone matters. Come on, who are you? I do not know you, and need not follow your view. Keep your view and respect our views that are different. We should share and discuss but not impose.
Sweeping statements, wrong comparison, bad use of statistics, random new terms, intolerance of different views, ... and a totally wrong way of discussing the topic. Are MMORPGs going down hill? From what you have said we know nothing, we only see a pile of hatred thrown against WoW, and WoW =/= the entire MMORPG. Nor is your hatred a reason to conclude that something must be going downhill. Your line of argument surely is going downhill.
The christian comment was a response to someone saying how great an MMORPG WoW was because of the 10 million or whatever suscribers. Learn to read thanks. Yes I read and yes I mean what I said, comparing the size of WoW population to the population size of Christians are meaningless, you might as well compare WoW population size to the number of ants on earth. What does the comparison do? 10 million WoW players is a lot b/c 10 million is a lot relative to the gamer population of competing MMOs. No need to tell me to read. I have been telling you that you are repeating yourself in every post, like a broken record, and you have not been reading.
I told you what real PvP is. It's a PvP system that entails risk and reward, where players fight each other because they may not have good relations with a guild, or they may want control of a zone. Once again you tell me what a real PVP is? No you are telling me what you think a real PVP should be, that is your view, that is not my view or everyone's. Your view is just the view of one person, its nothing universal, nothing nearer to the truth than mine, and carries no more weight than my view or anyone's. I do not buy it, period. You make the same mistake again, unbounded projection of yourself into the universe. I said it many times "Learn to read thanks" (your words).
Real PvP is not having people queue up and fight each other over and over, over pointless objectives that un-immerse the player from the whole server they belong to. BGs have nothing to do with WoW the game and should not be the pvp system of choice. If you think players should be able to fight people on any server in some artificial environment over pointless objectives, maybe you should go play tetris or some other single player game because that's equivalent to what you do when you put people in instanced BGs against random people. That is what you think REAL PVP is. Stop putting words into my mouth, I do not think that players should be ..., NO, I do not think about things that way, b/c what players should do its their own business, and I have no say about it.
Everquest had a real pvp system. People fight over zones, or because they hated another guild, etc. Why is it that these newer MMORPGs have no drama? That just means they are boring. MMORPGs should largely be unmoderated, and players should be able to cause drama etc. or whatever just because it makes the game more enjoyable. It is more real that way. It is a more REAL thing in your view, you like to make drama, ok that is you. That is not me. We understand your view, and we have the right not to agree with it. I have read your reiteration enough times but totally unconvinced nonetheless
Why should online games be moderated for language(profanity, not racial slurs etc.), player conduct, etc.? To me that just means each player has less rights. You have to conform to some idiotic view of an MMORPG being some kind of boxing ring where everyone is wearing padding and no one can cause any problems for other players. Not that I enjoy causing problems, but lets face it, WoW is kind of like a game where you are just fighting NPCs because there is no emotion in WoW really. It's like you can kill someone and they won't give a shit because they'll just come back in 10 seconds and fight you again. Once again that is what you think. I have already expressed my disappointment with many aspects of WoW. I think I have repeated enough times: different games designed different forms of penalties for losing in PVP. If you do not like the way it is set up in WoW move on. You don't like it =/= its stupid or whatever. Your view is just the view of one person, nothing special nor universal, and is NOT the truth. Well I have repeated this too many times. Are you reading this?
A real PvP system wouldn't allow players to do that.. A real person wouldn't be repeating the same argument over and over like you did, oh come on, that is your view about a PVP game, its nothing real.
You can argue that WoW has a real pvp system, but that is a stupid viewpoint. Anyone who played real games knows that WoW's pvp system exists so unskilled players arent penalized for playing like garbage. That is a good reason why you can take the max level players in WoW, go raid an instance and get raped.. Because these players don't ever learn or become better. All they do is die and respawn and it doesn't matter at all. MMOS with costs will force players to be more careful about where they go, who they attack, and how they play their character. Check my posts, I never talk about PVP in WoW, I already repeated many times I do not like WoW. But that does not mean I must hate WoW for the same reason, nor that I need to agree with you. Read first before you write, not everyone who disagrees with you must be a WoW fan.
How about the fact that WOW has no exploratory value at all? You can even download fully complete maps.. not that it matters much. You aren't penalized for running into level 70 zones as a level 1 really REALLY? you mean you won't die?. In EQ you'd be lucky to get through 1 zone without getting beat down by some weird NPC... Games like WoW just aren't even close to being as exciting as EQ was. You must be totally out of your mind. I remember the Level 50+ undead zone (east and west plagueland?) being next to the undead newbie zone in WoW. When I finished exploring the undead newbie zone I found that funny entrance and walked in. I died before I can see what hit me, 1 hit. Ok you can say that after dying in WoW you face less trouble, b/c you do not need to drag your body back to safety. THAT is the issue of death penalty, and stop glorifying body dragging. Not everyone wants that. Oh now I come to wonder, do you know about WoW at all?
In summary I hope these moronic gaming companies release a game for players who want a challening MMORPG with a non-carebear PvE and PvP system that is more unforgiving than WoW's incompetent noob-fest they call an MMORPG. What a joke of a game, nothing is an accomplishment there. Personal wish expressed in insulting terms, totally intolerant of people with a different view. That about sums up your interpersonal skills.
Learn to read thanks. That is your words. Many here have been trying to tell you that your views are a bit extreme, partial and not a universally agreed stand on some of the issues being discussed. We have heard enough about your very same views expressed in every post of yours and some have stopped responding to you b/c you are bringing no new ideas to the floor. I guess I have repeated my reservations already and should not have been repeating as many times as you reiterated.
You are once again confusing your own wishes with the fact. You hate WoW. You dislike WoW PVE that is a fact. That is one person not wanting to do PvE in WoW, that does not extend to everyone else. Last time I heard there are 10 million paid accounts, and someone is online doing PvE somewhere. That disproves your wild claims. And I do not believe that these players do not want to do PvE in WoW but they spend their time and money doing it, and millions of them.
In simple terms, you are wrong.
Haha. My views are a bit extreme, yeah right.
You have said my views suck basically, what are your views then, if they are not the same as mine, and why do you think that it makes for a better MMORPG than the system I proposed?
Sure, you dopes might not agree exactly with what I mean by real pvp, but I think there would be a consensus that WoW's pvp system is artificial and not a real pvp system.
You can run through level 70 zones easy in WoW. Just stay on the path and look around. And what happens if you die? Just run back grab corpse and you get to gate, with no real loss.
Exploring is more exciting when there is more at stake. When you can run around the world without consequence, it becomes boring.
Oh im insulting to WoW players? big deal. I don't care what people who play WoW think, because they are responsible for gaming companies producing such trash like TR etc. I don't know why they play MMORPGs because it seems quite pointless when there is a system like the one in WoW.
The game is for young kids. If you are 30 and playing WoW, that's pretty sad. It must really suck when you have to log onto ventrilo and raid with 10 year olds talking about generally stupid things. Personally I don't enjoy playing with people who are younger than me, because they are almost always immature and don't have anything interesting to say.
I like people who like challenging games, and sadly there are no challenging MMORPGs are out. I like people who like to take on the most difficult content that is available in any game possible. I'm not interested in farming weak players in BGs for the best gear in the game. Killing the type of player that you encounter in WoW repeatedly is not a challenge at all. That is why there is no sense of accomplishment in WoW
Ginkeq sounds bitter and a case of sour grapes.
Lots of professionals (tons in my companies) play WOW. Just because others don't want stress in their entertaintment, he called people names.
Well, if walking 30 min around with nothing to do and have a 30% chance of being killed is fun for you ... guess what ... that is not fun for us. Furthermore, like it or not, you belong to a SMALL fraction of the gaming population, like it or not. While there are certainly niche games catered to your needs, ranting like a mad dog about successful games which entertain millions of users will only show how bitter you are.
I am sure you have the same rant about alll the popular SP games like HALO, COD4, ....
I was reading a blog by a World of Warcraft player awhile back. He claimed that WoW is indeed casual of course but raiding is a bit more of a hardcore activity (Molten Core back in the day was pretty brutal to new guilds). I'm not sure how it is now- but I remember the first Warrior who acquired the Hand of Ragnaros on my server. We thought he was a hero. And he was the only one to bear it for a long time.....
I like the aspect somewhat that you can be special like this but I wish they was a better way to be unique other then go through the trouble his guild went to in order to craft hand of rag....
maybe so, but remember back then your server probably didnt have this idiotic BG setup so people actually thought highly of people who could beat instances that havent been beaten at the time.
Now everyone just farms in BGs for their gear which is ridiculous. Even more ridiculous is that it is usually better than instance gear which is 100x harder to get.
From your frame of reference, they might be skilled. From mine, they are newbies. Big difference
From your frame of reference, they might be skilled. From mine, they are newbies. Big difference
What is the issue? Glink thinks its newbies, nari thinks it might be skilled. 2 persons 2 views. Neither is superior. Both are just views for our reference. PERIOD.
You repeated the same old argument again, round 20. Any new views?
I disagree GoldGunNoDow.
First of all your analogy is incorrect, the question is 'why are MMORPGS going downhill?' not 'why are MMORPGS reaching their limit?'.
And it's not just video and sound that make a modern mmorpg (and besides these both have a long way to go before they reach their limit) it's the game rules and the economics too - it's these things which can be improved the most to take MMORPGs past the standard grinder game.
If you really think that things like olfactory, tactile, taste, real3Dvideo are needed to take mmorpgs to the next level then you'll be waiting a long time. We need to concentrate on the basics before we do those things.
Also I'll criticize your English, it's not "American is stupid." it's "Americans are stupid".
Why? Because WoW is designed to only cater to hardcore needs and hardcore playing habits. It's designed to make loot and level grinding the only things worth doing, and rewards hardcore templating, powerclan membership, and TS/vent use.
Roleplay tools, crafting, and immersion take a backseat to levelling and looting, meaning that the game really only appeals to the achiever segment at the expense of the other dispositions that typically play MMOs.
And the reason I feel safe in saying that WoW has catered to the hardcore is the rise of worlds such as Second Life, which appeal to non-gamers, with no rigidly discernable goals or achievement benchmarks like rankings, stats, or levels.
I'm sure a lot of those Second Lifers would like a new virtual setting to visit. The only problem is that the places like WoW have no room for creative expression or user determined goals. All of this can be traced back to the attitude that has become commonplace in today's MMO landscape: that if you aren't pursuing combat/exp/loots, you aren't having fun.
More hardcore? What do you call hardcore then?
I guess you would define it as a game that is a timesink piece of garbage where you arent penalized for anything?
I'd argue that WoW is a softcore newbie game which is why it's so successful. You don't lose anything, so you can play like garbage and you arent penalized. You can keep raiding zones, pvping, and every time you can die and you still won't lose anything except durability.
The game is basically for people who couldn't handle a real MMORPG so they need some game where you can't possibly screw anything up. It's for people who couldn't handle the challenges of the older generation of MMORPGs where bosses actually required complex strategies, and where you don't get infinite retries on everything. But WoW is just "give them their own zone and let them keep trying"
I define a hardcore game as quite simply: placing achievement through combat-related tasks above all other things.
Hardcore isn't a matter of tweaking the difficulty. Would WoW suddenly become hardcore if you double the toughness of MOBs, halve the XP, and introduce item decay and corpse looting? I'd say the game under those conditions would be no more and no less hardcore than WoW as it stands today.
Hardcore to me is not about hours played. It's about how one is supposed to approach play in order to gain fulfillment. And to me, WoW rewards immersion breakers, templaters, min/maxers, and professionalized cross-game clans/guilds. It rewards the hardcore playstyle, and offers very little to those who enjoy roleplay, crafting, exploration, or immersion.
What makes a game "hardcore" isn't the difficulty of quests, raids, and PvP. What makes a game hardcore, for me at least, is that there's nothing to do but quests, raids, and PvP. WoW is hardcore, because it rewards the tenacious "kill, loot, repeat" mindset found in hardcore playing habits to the exclusion of all other playing habits.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE