ok tikovoo I can see where you'r at. I'm glad you try to muzzle fanboys (I don't like them and neither when they take my "side") because overhyping anything above one's mind isn't good for anyone. But once again I hear too much assumptions rather than facts. Yes gear will matter but you are basicly saying it will be WoW all over again which I have many doubts about. The question is how much top gear differ from standard gear. If the difference is minimal at least I know I won't care. Heck, I know I beat "Master Craft" set groups in EverQuest 2 with good team work and there gear REALLY matter alot! If WAR is gonna have gear just as important it's gonna be annoying. But you really know nothing about how effective top-end gear will be or how difficult it will be to achieve. And can you really call end-game city-siege-capturing RvR raiding? You are putting it like dungeon raids in WoW where you have raid calendars and so on. YES I saw you mentioning seeing one in WAR aswell but does that mean you have to farm like a monkey in WAR to get anywhere? I hear you get gear in PvP (random drop) and that sounds bout fine to me. Then I believe there'd be two ways of getting the top-notch gear. I guess the absolute best is from end-game city attack (which is the GOAL of the game anyway!) and from PvE aswell. Which one you choose is probably up to you. One thing is sure though, I will NEVER play a game that demands me to sit many times a week farming the same instance / dungeon over and over again. They mentioned VERY early that crafting will not be a big thing in WAR so I see no real "shocker" there either. You make stuff to kill stuff, probably only basic stuff aswell. Probably components but I see no more depth in it from there. So everyone getting all excited about the crafting details... what the heck are you on?
So now we know some more information and it looks like previous reports were founded.
End game city sieging sounds exactly like a long drawn out raid to me from the latest info. Although exciting ish, is something I shouldn't be forced to do. And now we found out crafting doesn't offer an alternative to the kings gear drops..... Well, A very sad time indeed.
You want the best gear, you will have to Farm the King for Gear about once a month. And multiple types of instance you will have to go thru.
Transcripts from IRC chats recently show that the gear will be important.
Gotta love em buggers judging a game with a few screenshots, some flyby's and a pr dude talking funny stuff. I prefer to try the game myself when its released. Oh, and the drops are handled in a completely different way than any other mmo out there, atleast to my knowledge. If you get the best gear from raids, mobs or crafting remains to be seen. Wait and see...
Why does every fcking game must have gear based pvp???????? What do the devs have? $hit for brains?
Maybe after i kill 35345345 people they should allow me to shoot thunderbolts out of my @ss for 60% advantage to make it a nice round 100%
I hope u guyz have fun playing this. I m out.
Wouldn't PvP without gear be like an FPS? I guess not exactly the same... there would be skills you could use too. Or maybe everyone could run around slapping each other.
Sounds like you don't like RPGs. That whole character progression thing.
No I think it's the other way around.
Take the gear out of it and you're effectively left with a classic RPG level system.
With a max-level toon and you've got a level playing field pvp-wise.
Until you factor in some brains and skill then the fun starts.
In a perfect MMO PvP prowess would come from:
Your level,
Your skill load-out,
an ability to work well in a team
Knowledge of your toon's strengths and weaknesses
and your personal skill and strategy.
Unfortuanetly no studio will ever put out a MMO that doesn't require some kind of lateral character progession at level cap. It's a 3 month ride otherwise. They want to keep you interested as long as possible. So I expect some kind of mechanic at cap that improves your character without actaully levelling.
What else could it be but gear grind or even worse - faction grind. This is where they start to loose me. I'm good for a few months but once those with higher boredom threshholds and more free time start to make my toon too uncompetitiive I just can't keep up any more. I'm mid-30's now and real life doesn't allow me the freedom (or inclination if I'm totally homsest) to sit infront of my screen like I could 10-15 years ago.
Personally, I think I'll take them at face-value when they say WAR wont be as item centric as WoW and see for myself.
_________________________________________ You can walk the walk but can you talk the talk?
Why does every fcking game must have gear based pvp???????? What do the devs have? $hit for brains?
Maybe after i kill 35345345 people they should allow me to shoot thunderbolts out of my @ss for 60% advantage to make it a nice round 100%
I hope u guyz have fun playing this. I m out.
Wouldn't PvP without gear be like an FPS? I guess not exactly the same... there would be skills you could use too. Or maybe everyone could run around slapping each other.
Sounds like you don't like RPGs. That whole character progression thing.
No I think it's the other way around.
Take the gear out of it and you're effectively left with a classic RPG level system.
With a max-level toon and you've got a level playing field pvp-wise.
Until you factor in some brains and skill then the fun starts.
In a perfect MMO PvP prowess would come from:
Your level,
Your skill load-out,
an ability to work well in a team
Knowledge of your toon's strengths and weaknesses
and your personal skill and strategy.
Unfortuanetly no studio will ever put out a MMO that doesn't require some kind of lateral character progession at level cap. It's a 3 month ride otherwise. They want to keep you interested as long as possible. So I expect some kind of mechanic at cap that improves your character without actaully levelling.
What else could it be but gear grind or even worse - faction grind. This is where they start to loose me. I'm good for a few months but once those with higher boredom threshholds and more free time start to make my toon too uncompetitiive I just can't keep up any more. I'm mid-30's now and real life doesn't allow me the freedom (or inclination if I'm totally homsest) to sit infront of my screen like I could 10-15 years ago.
Personally, I think I'll take them at face-value when they say WAR wont be as item centric as WoW and see for myself. Or at least see what the beta players say when the NDA is lifted. I don't mind a little bit of gear-centric pvp but if it compensates for poor skill and lack of knowledge then it goes too far.
Thanks for spending an hour dredging up extremely old posts...ever think it died because it was talked to death and nobody cared? Sometimes I think there should be an aptitude test to see if you are granted internet access.
Why does every fcking game must have gear based pvp???????? What do the devs have? $hit for brains?
Maybe after i kill 35345345 people they should allow me to shoot thunderbolts out of my @ss for 60% advantage to make it a nice round 100%
I hope u guyz have fun playing this. I m out.
Wouldn't PvP without gear be like an FPS? I guess not exactly the same... there would be skills you could use too. Or maybe everyone could run around slapping each other.
Sounds like you don't like RPGs. That whole character progression thing.
No I think it's the other way around.
Take the gear out of it and you're effectively left with a classic RPG level system.
With a max-level toon and you've got a level playing field pvp-wise.
Until you factor in some brains and skill then the fun starts.
In a perfect MMO PvP prowess would come from:
Your level,
Your skill load-out,
an ability to work well in a team
Knowledge of your toon's strengths and weaknesses
and your personal skill and strategy.
Unfortuanetly no studio will ever put out a MMO that doesn't require some kind of lateral character progession at level cap. It's a 3 month ride otherwise. They want to keep you interested as long as possible. So I expect some kind of mechanic at cap that improves your character without actaully levelling.
What else could it be but gear grind or even worse - faction grind. This is where they start to loose me. I'm good for a few months but once those with higher boredom threshholds and more free time start to make my toon too uncompetitiive I just can't keep up any more. I'm mid-30's now and real life doesn't allow me the freedom (or inclination if I'm totally homsest) to sit infront of my screen like I could 10-15 years ago.
Personally, I think I'll take them at face-value when they say WAR wont be as item centric as WoW and see for myself. Or at least see what the beta players say when the NDA is lifted. I don't mind a little bit of gear-centric pvp but if it compensates for poor skill and lack of knowledge then it goes too far.
Thanks for spending an hour dredging up extremely old posts...ever think it died because it was talked to death and nobody cared? Sometimes I think there should be an aptitude test to see if you are granted internet access.
You'd better hope not. I'm sure you would be sorely missed.
Apologies to everyone else I didn't notice the date when I clicked reply. I was linked to this thread from a post made today.
_________________________________________ You can walk the walk but can you talk the talk?
If you don't want gear to matter why are you playing MMORPG's? I've never really understood this opinion. These games are built on character progression, those who have played longer generally have an advantage. I bet the RR80 gear is pretty comperable to King gear and anyone who plays a lot can get to RR80.
There are multiple roads of character development in games.
1. leveling. just about all games have this, they let you level up and gain new skills and become stronger.
2. feats/skills AA. not all games feature this, but alot allow for feats that you can pick to personalize your character, and personalize him to your tastes and tactics.
3. Gear. Gear is another way to develop your character. Gaining good pieces is basically a reward for defeating difficult content.
Now You dont have to have all 3 in a game to make it a good game. If you have a massive amount of skills, such as in guild wars. 1 and 3 can be lightened up. Or you can put your feat/skill system at the end of the leveling. Personally i dont recomend that.
Usually you get a mixture of all 3 types of character development.
1 thing that most developers miss out on though is making all attributes worthwhile for every character. int and wisdom should not only apply to wizards and healers. The SPECIAL system is probably one of the greatest systems developed because it this.
When you get to max level, and you have all your feat choices made. What is left to do with your character. #3 if you are in a good mmo or game.
People like to bash raiding and the like because all the best gear is found in there. Gear is also basically levels though.
A fresh max level should not be equal to a max level who has spent his time acquiring his epic and good equipment. A person who has gather that stuff could be considered 81-85 depending on the tiered pieces he has acquired. The idea that your level 80 should be equal in strength to person who has been continuing thier character development for 20-30 hours is crazy.
I dont believe raiding should be the only epic equipment. Random world drops should also drop, but at a very small chance.
But back on topic. if your character is 40% based off equipment. we can expect common- 0% bonus. uncommon -10%. rare- 20% legendary - 30% Epic- 40%.
So most people will have a mix of uncommon and rares with a couple legendary and maybe an epic thrown in there when they reach max level 20-30% equipment bonus. People who have maxed out level for a while will likely have a 30-40% bonus. Dont think of them as equal levels, because they arent. They are still a few levels ahead of you because of the time they have spent.
But keep in mind that things will be pretty equal in pvp because even at most, another player is only going to have a few levels on you at most. Unless you spend no time doing the 3rd part of character development.
omg, Kill_trolls is a god walking amongst mere mortals. Cheers, mate
Man, Kaela Mensha Khaine says that in Warhammer 40K: Dawn of War... good Warhammer reference!
As for this thread, at first I was upset. I hate WoW PvP and that gear makes you better than skill does. But after reading a lot of the post, 40% is not much. 40% will be the max lets say. So if you have garbage gear, I assume you'll have 30% at worst. 10% is a marginal difference. And if you like playing and play a decent amount, you'll get to 35-37% in no time, thus only a few percentage worse. So if you play your doppleganger, you will probably use, but if you play someone who sucks, you are probably actually 15-25% up on them in skill.
Its not the best news that gear means anything, but I think it is hardly a deal breaker unless its like WoW.
"skill" in a video game...lol. maybe you will get lucky and inherit your fortune if "skill" in a game is all you have. most of the time when someone says they have "skill" anyway, it usally means they know how to download a hack and use it..rofl.
When I said i had "time", i meant virtual time, i got no RL "time" for you.
"skill" in a video game...lol. maybe you will get lucky and inherit your fortune if "skill" in a game is all you have. most of the time when someone says they have "skill" anyway, it usally means they know how to download a hack and use it..rofl.
I'm terribly sorry, did you say anything coherent in your post that I missed? Watch Quake 3 and Counter-strike tournaments, watch Starcraft tournaments, watch some of the top players in WoW in arena... there are skill in video games and in large amounts. Sorry it is not an opinion, its a fact. That's like saying NFL players don't have skill, they just take steroids, which so we're clear, is wrong also.
I had an exchange student when I was younger and we played CS and he was convinced I cheated. I'd shoot him through a box and he'd claim I had hacks. He left months later sure of it. Sadly people like you just assume if someone is better than you that they cheat and there's no point in playing multiplayer games.
so let's use the 3000 hp example... even if 1200 hp comes from gear... it's important to notice that what you WANT to know is not that 1200hp comes from gear, but the difference between gear you can loot from normal mobs, gear you get from PQs and gear you loot from the king...
In wow i have no problem wit gear giving you 60% of the stats or more, the problem is that S1 gear is a LOT worse then S4... and normal green/blue is a LOT worse then S1... gear HAS to have a "huge" influence on your stat so you actually WANT to use it... not run around naked like in AoC... the problem is the difference between "junk" gear and "l33t" gear... THAT has to be subtle but worth the "grind"...
But if in WAR you get +1000 hp from greens, +1200 hp from PQ and +1400 from the king i really don't see a problem... you will still want the extra hp... if you can get it... but 200 or 400 hp wont really make a difference in skill and gear...
So untill the NDA drops we can't realy say if the game is gear based or not, sorry... EOD :P
Comments
End game city sieging sounds exactly like a long drawn out raid to me from the latest info. Although exciting ish, is something I shouldn't be forced to do. And now we found out crafting doesn't offer an alternative to the kings gear drops..... Well, A very sad time indeed.
You want the best gear, you will have to Farm the King for Gear about once a month. And multiple types of instance you will have to go thru.
Transcripts from IRC chats recently show that the gear will be important.
Gotta love em buggers judging a game with a few screenshots, some flyby's and a pr dude talking funny stuff. I prefer to try the game myself when its released. Oh, and the drops are handled in a completely different way than any other mmo out there, atleast to my knowledge. If you get the best gear from raids, mobs or crafting remains to be seen. Wait and see...
---
Grammar nazi's. This one is for you.
Wouldn't PvP without gear be like an FPS? I guess not exactly the same... there would be skills you could use too. Or maybe everyone could run around slapping each other.
Sounds like you don't like RPGs. That whole character progression thing.
No I think it's the other way around.
Take the gear out of it and you're effectively left with a classic RPG level system.
With a max-level toon and you've got a level playing field pvp-wise.
Until you factor in some brains and skill then the fun starts.
In a perfect MMO PvP prowess would come from:
Unfortuanetly no studio will ever put out a MMO that doesn't require some kind of lateral character progession at level cap. It's a 3 month ride otherwise. They want to keep you interested as long as possible. So I expect some kind of mechanic at cap that improves your character without actaully levelling.
What else could it be but gear grind or even worse - faction grind. This is where they start to loose me. I'm good for a few months but once those with higher boredom threshholds and more free time start to make my toon too uncompetitiive I just can't keep up any more. I'm mid-30's now and real life doesn't allow me the freedom (or inclination if I'm totally homsest) to sit infront of my screen like I could 10-15 years ago.
Personally, I think I'll take them at face-value when they say WAR wont be as item centric as WoW and see for myself.
_________________________________________
You can walk the walk but can you talk the talk?
Wouldn't PvP without gear be like an FPS? I guess not exactly the same... there would be skills you could use too. Or maybe everyone could run around slapping each other.
Sounds like you don't like RPGs. That whole character progression thing.
No I think it's the other way around.
Take the gear out of it and you're effectively left with a classic RPG level system.
With a max-level toon and you've got a level playing field pvp-wise.
Until you factor in some brains and skill then the fun starts.
In a perfect MMO PvP prowess would come from:
Unfortuanetly no studio will ever put out a MMO that doesn't require some kind of lateral character progession at level cap. It's a 3 month ride otherwise. They want to keep you interested as long as possible. So I expect some kind of mechanic at cap that improves your character without actaully levelling.
What else could it be but gear grind or even worse - faction grind. This is where they start to loose me. I'm good for a few months but once those with higher boredom threshholds and more free time start to make my toon too uncompetitiive I just can't keep up any more. I'm mid-30's now and real life doesn't allow me the freedom (or inclination if I'm totally homsest) to sit infront of my screen like I could 10-15 years ago.
Personally, I think I'll take them at face-value when they say WAR wont be as item centric as WoW and see for myself. Or at least see what the beta players say when the NDA is lifted. I don't mind a little bit of gear-centric pvp but if it compensates for poor skill and lack of knowledge then it goes too far.
Thanks for spending an hour dredging up extremely old posts...ever think it died because it was talked to death and nobody cared? Sometimes I think there should be an aptitude test to see if you are granted internet access.
------------------
Originally posted by javac
well i'm 35 and have a PhD in science, and then 10 years experience in bioinformatics... you?
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/218865/page/8
Wouldn't PvP without gear be like an FPS? I guess not exactly the same... there would be skills you could use too. Or maybe everyone could run around slapping each other.
Sounds like you don't like RPGs. That whole character progression thing.
No I think it's the other way around.
Take the gear out of it and you're effectively left with a classic RPG level system.
With a max-level toon and you've got a level playing field pvp-wise.
Until you factor in some brains and skill then the fun starts.
In a perfect MMO PvP prowess would come from:
Unfortuanetly no studio will ever put out a MMO that doesn't require some kind of lateral character progession at level cap. It's a 3 month ride otherwise. They want to keep you interested as long as possible. So I expect some kind of mechanic at cap that improves your character without actaully levelling.
What else could it be but gear grind or even worse - faction grind. This is where they start to loose me. I'm good for a few months but once those with higher boredom threshholds and more free time start to make my toon too uncompetitiive I just can't keep up any more. I'm mid-30's now and real life doesn't allow me the freedom (or inclination if I'm totally homsest) to sit infront of my screen like I could 10-15 years ago.
Personally, I think I'll take them at face-value when they say WAR wont be as item centric as WoW and see for myself. Or at least see what the beta players say when the NDA is lifted. I don't mind a little bit of gear-centric pvp but if it compensates for poor skill and lack of knowledge then it goes too far.
Thanks for spending an hour dredging up extremely old posts...ever think it died because it was talked to death and nobody cared? Sometimes I think there should be an aptitude test to see if you are granted internet access.
You'd better hope not. I'm sure you would be sorely missed.
Apologies to everyone else I didn't notice the date when I clicked reply. I was linked to this thread from a post made today.
_________________________________________
You can walk the walk but can you talk the talk?
If you don't want gear to matter why are you playing MMORPG's? I've never really understood this opinion. These games are built on character progression, those who have played longer generally have an advantage. I bet the RR80 gear is pretty comperable to King gear and anyone who plays a lot can get to RR80.
There are multiple roads of character development in games.
1. leveling. just about all games have this, they let you level up and gain new skills and become stronger.
2. feats/skills AA. not all games feature this, but alot allow for feats that you can pick to personalize your character, and personalize him to your tastes and tactics.
3. Gear. Gear is another way to develop your character. Gaining good pieces is basically a reward for defeating difficult content.
Now You dont have to have all 3 in a game to make it a good game. If you have a massive amount of skills, such as in guild wars. 1 and 3 can be lightened up. Or you can put your feat/skill system at the end of the leveling. Personally i dont recomend that.
Usually you get a mixture of all 3 types of character development.
1 thing that most developers miss out on though is making all attributes worthwhile for every character. int and wisdom should not only apply to wizards and healers. The SPECIAL system is probably one of the greatest systems developed because it this.
When you get to max level, and you have all your feat choices made. What is left to do with your character. #3 if you are in a good mmo or game.
People like to bash raiding and the like because all the best gear is found in there. Gear is also basically levels though.
A fresh max level should not be equal to a max level who has spent his time acquiring his epic and good equipment. A person who has gather that stuff could be considered 81-85 depending on the tiered pieces he has acquired. The idea that your level 80 should be equal in strength to person who has been continuing thier character development for 20-30 hours is crazy.
I dont believe raiding should be the only epic equipment. Random world drops should also drop, but at a very small chance.
But back on topic. if your character is 40% based off equipment. we can expect common- 0% bonus. uncommon -10%. rare- 20% legendary - 30% Epic- 40%.
So most people will have a mix of uncommon and rares with a couple legendary and maybe an epic thrown in there when they reach max level 20-30% equipment bonus. People who have maxed out level for a while will likely have a 30-40% bonus. Dont think of them as equal levels, because they arent. They are still a few levels ahead of you because of the time they have spent.
But keep in mind that things will be pretty equal in pvp because even at most, another player is only going to have a few levels on you at most. Unless you spend no time doing the 3rd part of character development.
Man, Kaela Mensha Khaine says that in Warhammer 40K: Dawn of War... good Warhammer reference!
As for this thread, at first I was upset. I hate WoW PvP and that gear makes you better than skill does. But after reading a lot of the post, 40% is not much. 40% will be the max lets say. So if you have garbage gear, I assume you'll have 30% at worst. 10% is a marginal difference. And if you like playing and play a decent amount, you'll get to 35-37% in no time, thus only a few percentage worse. So if you play your doppleganger, you will probably use, but if you play someone who sucks, you are probably actually 15-25% up on them in skill.
Its not the best news that gear means anything, but I think it is hardly a deal breaker unless its like WoW.
"skill" in a video game...lol. maybe you will get lucky and inherit your fortune if "skill" in a game is all you have. most of the time when someone says they have "skill" anyway, it usally means they know how to download a hack and use it..rofl.
When I said i had "time", i meant virtual time, i got no RL "time" for you.
I'm terribly sorry, did you say anything coherent in your post that I missed? Watch Quake 3 and Counter-strike tournaments, watch Starcraft tournaments, watch some of the top players in WoW in arena... there are skill in video games and in large amounts. Sorry it is not an opinion, its a fact. That's like saying NFL players don't have skill, they just take steroids, which so we're clear, is wrong also.
I had an exchange student when I was younger and we played CS and he was convinced I cheated. I'd shoot him through a box and he'd claim I had hacks. He left months later sure of it. Sadly people like you just assume if someone is better than you that they cheat and there's no point in playing multiplayer games.
One important thing i have to add here...
so let's use the 3000 hp example... even if 1200 hp comes from gear... it's important to notice that what you WANT to know is not that 1200hp comes from gear, but the difference between gear you can loot from normal mobs, gear you get from PQs and gear you loot from the king...
In wow i have no problem wit gear giving you 60% of the stats or more, the problem is that S1 gear is a LOT worse then S4... and normal green/blue is a LOT worse then S1... gear HAS to have a "huge" influence on your stat so you actually WANT to use it... not run around naked like in AoC... the problem is the difference between "junk" gear and "l33t" gear... THAT has to be subtle but worth the "grind"...
But if in WAR you get +1000 hp from greens, +1200 hp from PQ and +1400 from the king i really don't see a problem... you will still want the extra hp... if you can get it... but 200 or 400 hp wont really make a difference in skill and gear...
So untill the NDA drops we can't realy say if the game is gear based or not, sorry... EOD :P