Only thing im upset about is that the game isnt skill based. I really wish developers would get over the whole level grind system.
-Jive
I think the class system this game proposes is actually a really good idea. When CoH was first in development they wanted a system that allowed players to choose any powers they wanted. However, it became very hard to balance. This class system will make it easier to balance but will allow customization of powers.
First of all, I did get my regen nerfed and I sucked it up. However, Regens were better than people who spent just as much time in their classes. A controller who spent 4000 hours would still not be as good as a regen who spent 4000 hours. That's why it had to be nerfed. They weren't nerfing you as some sort of vendetta. They were nerfing an over-powered set.
Really, after how many hours? If I got nerfed after only 50 hours I would not have lost much myself. I would perhaps not have blinked at the thought of doing it all over again.
Were you like level 20 when you got nerfed or something? It doesn't strike me that a regen who thought ED was the big nerf actually got nerfed at all.
I think you will find that the controllers who got nerfed weren't very happy about it either.
At the time they were nerfing Regens, Controllers were the only class able to solo bosses their own level and Invulnerability was the strongest defensive build.
All of which is completely irrelevant, COH is a team game, a co-operative game. An RPG. Who is the toughest in the team depended on the team not anyones specific build. It was also a complete irrelevance to the gameplay which depended on team play, not just one member of the team killing everything while the others picked their noses.
Regens got nerfed because they weretherecommendedsolo class, and statistically they proved to be the people levelling up the fastest. They got nerfed because subscription games are money sinks. Once you max level, you stop subscribing, so a class that levels up fastest must be nerfed. Only it wasn't the powerset that made regens level fast, it was the type of player who chose solo builds. The dev's looked at the spreadsheet and min maxxed their income.
They weren't the hardest build in the game and they most certainly weren't harder than Controllers who definitely were the hardest build in the game. Laughable that you should choose a Controller as your example.
The only thing they were intrested in balancing was the books. They were responding to a drop off of subscriptions due to the lack of end game content.
Nothing had to be nerfed, there are a million and one other ways to rebalance a game. You could buff the others. You could buff the monsters.
You could do like with the aliens and make special monsters hunting down regens.
You could choose to add something to the game. But they didn't.
They chose the min/max. Minimum effort /maximum revenue.
First of all, I did get my regen nerfed and I sucked it up. However, Regens were better than people who spent just as much time in their classes. A controller who spent 4000 hours would still not be as good as a regen who spent 4000 hours. That's why it had to be nerfed. They weren't nerfing you as some sort of vendetta. They were nerfing an over-powered set.
Really, after how many hours? If I got nerfed after only 50 hours I would not have lost much myself. I would perhaps not have blinked at the thought of doing it all over again.
Were you like level 20 when you got nerfed or something? It doesn't strike me that a regen who thought ED was the big nerf actually got nerfed at all.
I think you will find that the controllers who got nerfed weren't very happy about it either.
At the time they were nerfing Regens, Controllers were the only class able to solo bosses their own level and Invulnerability was the strongest defensive build.
All of which is completely irrelevant, COH is a team game, a co-operative game. An RPG. Who is the toughest in the team depended on the team not anyones specific build. It was also a complete irrelevance to the gameplay which depended on team play, not just one member of the team killing everything while the others picked their noses.
Regens got nerfed because they weretherecommendedsolo class, and statistically they proved to be the people levelling up the fastest. They got nerfed because subscription games are money sinks. Once you max level, you stop subscribing, so a class that levels up fastest must be nerfed. Only it wasn't the powerset that made regens level fast, it was the type of player who chose solo builds. The dev's looked at the spreadsheet and min maxxed their income.
They weren't the hardest build in the game and they most certainly weren't harder than Controllers who definitely were the hardest build in the game. Laughable that you should choose a Controller as your example.
Nothing had to be nerfed, there are a million and one other ways to rebalance a game. You could buff the others. You could buff the monsters.
You could do like with the aliens and make special monsters hunting down regens.
You could choose to add something to the game. But they didn't.
They chose the min/max. Minimum effort /maximum revenue.
So instead of rebalancing one class they should put in hundreds of hours to rebalance the entire game up? Also I had two regens. One was around 45-48 area at ED and the other was 30. Firrst was Katana second was Dark
Right........... So you weren't nerfed at all then.
Just as I thought.
ED wasn't the big nerf, it was the one months before that. I4. (Although there were others in I3, I2 and I1).
And yes the preferred solution was not to nerf the people who levelled fastest to stop them leaving the game, it was to create more end game content, so they have a reason to stay longer.
Nerfing them just ensured that they wouldn't re-sub when new content did eventually arrive.
Boo hoo, if that meant hundreds of hours of work. It's not like we weren't all paying them for every hour.
Right........... So you weren't nerfed at all then. Just as I thought.
And yes the preferred solution was not to nerf the people who levelled fastest to stop them leaving the game, it was to create more end game content, so they have a reason to stay longer. Nerfing them just ensured that they wouldn't re-sub when new content did eventually arrive. Boo hoo, if that meant hundreds of hours of work. It's not like we weren't all paying them for every hour.
They nerfed the Regens because they were effictevly resistant to all types of damage indiscrimently and were overpowered. Adding end-game content wasn't going to change that. Also I played since the beggining of the game. Had full SOs and had spent plenty of time on the character. Since you left before ED obviously your "Nerf" was based on your power selection not on any enhancements you had so the fact I didn't have Hamis at the time wouldn't matter so what exactly about me being level 47 made me not nerfed? My powers were nerfed just the same as yours so go ahead and tell me again how I wasn't nerfed.
No. Regens were only resistant to physical damage. And only then with a pool power. Although since you didn't play one pre nerf, I don't expect you to understand.
That's why the scrapper next to you with Invulnerability is still standing when your Regen is dead. He can take more damage than you. You get one shotted and he does not.
And I did have Hammy's at the time.
But you still don't get it. ED wasn't the big nerf for Regens.I4 was.
They had already been devastated long before ED. ED was their 5th nerf.
And yes at level 47 ED won't have had much effect on you. You won't have spent 1,000's of hours grinding for a full set of 53's. You wont have spent hundreds of hours perfecting your build and attack routines.
To be nerfed they have to actually take something away from your character. Not just someone you knows.
As I said, if you haven't been hit by the nerf bat, you won't understand. You'll just spend your life thinking all who got it deserved it. Until it's your turn.
There are still SWG players arguing that the nerfs didn't affect anyone either. You have to understand, players won't forgive being nerfed. It takes away something they have paid for and spent significant amounts of their free time building. There's no point crying "balance" or it's "for the good of the game". When you steal from someone they won't trust you anymore.
It clearly wasn't for the good of my game. So I'll keep my money.
No. Regens were only resistant to physical damage. And only then with a pool power. Although since you didn't play one pre nerf, I don't expect you to understand. That's why the scrapper next to you with Invulnerability is still standing when your Regen is dead. He can take more damage than you. You get one shotted and he does not.
And I did have Hammy's at the time. But you still don't get it. ED wasn't the big nerf for Regens.I4 was. They had already been devastated long before ED. ED was their 5th nerf.
And yes at level 47 ED won't have had much effect on you. You won't have spent 1,000's of hours grinding for a full set of 53's. You wont have spent hundreds of hours perfecting your build and attack routines. To be nerfed they have to actually take something away from your character. Not just someone you knows.
As I said, if you haven't been hit by the nerf bat, you won't understand. You'll just spend your life thinking all who got it deserved it. Until it's your turn.
No I just spent hundreds of hours playing and perfecting my character at 47. I never did grind out 53s your right. How aweful of me to think I got nerfed when I was 47 and had played a long time. Forgive me for not being as perfect as you all mighty one.
And Regens might not have been actually resistant to damage but they were effectivly resistant to all types. This is because the regenerate regarless and thus over a period of time take less damage regardless of whether its psionic or leathal or smashing or what have you.
But if you don't want to play Champions fine. Don't. I'm not going to try and convince you because obviously I am too lowly to know anything about anything. Oh and by the way I had a level 50 tanker at ED and I though it as ok that I got nerfed on him so I know what it's like to be nerfed.
You didn't get nerfed but you claimed you did. You aren't lowly, you are lucky. You are the one still enjoying the game, and I am the one jaded by it.
If you were level 48 at ED, then you weren't level 47 at the I4 nerfs. ED didn't upset? Excellent.
Regens can regenerate damage, which means they are effectively resitant to Dps lower than their Hps.
Unfortunately by the time you get to max level this is irrelevant since mobs do more than your total HPs damage and you are dead in one shot. So even though you are not a blaster, you still have to hide behind the tank and only attack what is taunted. Unlike the invulnerbility scrapper, who only takes a % of the damage and cannot be one shotted, can heal himself and be healed. Can fight in the front row. The Regen however is just a pancake, he's substituted attack for a defense that doesn't cut it. He can't fight on his own and he does less DPS than the other second rows.
I'm sorry to hear about your 50 tanker at ED, and I'm sure you do know what nerfs are. However after ED could your tank still tank mobs his own level? Regen couldn't after I4. Not even 15 levels below. And again i cannot emphasise enough what a demoraliser it is to have all your hard grinded 53's rendered useless after the amount of time it took to get them.
I'm not trying to steal your moral high ground. I'm attempting to explain why nerfs are not fun. What it is people lose and why they get upset about it. No one minds minor nerfs. We can all live with those, it's the big fun-breakers that people hate. Anthing that removes a stlye of play you enjoyed, the ability to perform actions you found fun, or removes things from you that took a very long time to acquire.
I'm not sold on Champions yet. I may well play it, I enjoyed COH, but COH ended badly for me. I have no trust in their developers. They didn't earn my loyalty.
Plus they don't have a publisher yet. They've already been dropped by a big one.
If this game ever releases, I'll most certainly play it, possibly I'll wait for a trial though.
I think this is great news! I used to play the Pnp version many years ago! It's just sad that news like this is overshadowed in this thread by the "Waaaah! I got nerfed! Waaahhhh!!!"
You didn't get nerfed but you claimed you did. You aren't lowly, you are lucky. You are the one still enjoying the game, and I am the one jaded by it. If you were level 48 at ED, then you weren't level 47 at the I4 nerfs. ED didn't upset? Excellent.
Regens can regenerate damage, which means they are effectively resitant to Dps lower than their Hps. Unfortunately by the time you get to max level this is irrelevant since mobs do more than your total HPs damage and you are dead in one shot. So even though you are not a blaster, you still have to hide behind the tank and only attack what is taunted. Unlike the invulnerbility scrapper, who only takes a % of the damage and cannot be one shotted, can heal himself and be healed. Can fight in the front row. The Regen however is just a pancake, he's substituted attack for a defense that doesn't cut it. He can't fight on his own and he does less DPS than the other second rows.
I'm sorry to hear about your 50 tanker at ED, and I'm sure you do know what nerfs are. However after ED could your tank still tank mobs his own level? Regen couldn't after I4. Not even 15 levels below. And again i cannot emphasise enough what a demoraliser it is to have all your hard grinded 53's rendered useless after the amount of time it took to get them.
I'm not trying to steal your moral high ground. I'm attempting to explain why nerfs are not fun. What it is people lose and why they get upset about it. No one minds minor nerfs. We can all live with those, it's the big fun-breakers that people hate. Anthing that removes a stlye of play you enjoyed, the ability to perform actions you found fun, or removes things from you that took a very long time to acquire.
I'm not sold on Champions yet. I may well play it, I enjoyed COH, but COH ended badly for me. I have no trust in their developers. They didn't earn my loyalty. Plus they don't have a publisher yet. They've already been dropped by a big one. If this game ever releases, I'll most certainly play it, possibly I'll wait for a trial though.
I'll concede this argument. I felt i got nerfed, but you feel you got nerfed worse. I think they were needed to help gameplay over all. All in all I doubt it will be tat bad in CO because this time they are not new at MMO design. Although the more choices you have the harder it is to balance so we'll see.
Baff while i can understand why your upst, at the same time i simply find it unrealistic.
It simply isn't pheasable to buff the game around overpowered classes.
If you do this, eventually you'd end up with one that was buffed too much, and then you'd have to buff everyone all over again. Then buff all the mobs. IT simply is not a realistic option.
And despite all the nerfs done to coh... The balance of the game today is better then it ever was.
I'm better at games than everyone else because I put more time in than everyone else. Not because I lucked out on my choice of build. Because I spent 4,000 hours learning the game and the limits of my toon while no one else had managed a 1,000. Being better than everybody else at video games isn't a goal in my life, it's a side effect of my lifestyle.
Yet with all that play time you never noticed that any scrapper could kill anything their own level even with all their defenses turned off, and well built regain scrappers were the Hammidon tank of choice because they needed only minimal healing. I won’t even go into the days when IH and MoG stacked. cough godmode cough.
Just got the new gameinformer and this game looks amazing! It's everything people wanted in CoH! Better customization of costumes! Equipment with actual visuals that are toggleable! Base archetypes with access to all skills in game A entire world explorable not just a city! Action gameplay similar to marvel ultimate alliance rather then wow! Great graphics! Cel-shadingish, called "comic shading" by the devs. Customizable movement, so you can hover, pounce, hunker in to fit your theme! Crafting from the getgo! For 360 and PC WITH mixed play between the two. Plenty more stuff!
Being a big fan of CoH, this is exactly the mmorpg i was looking for! Screw war and aoc! It's all about champions online!
Nice to see Cryptic are coming back fighting after MUO knock.
I would have hoped someone other than Cryptic were using the Champions system, but there is always the hope they don't end up going the same way with it as CoH. It isn't a bad game and I played it for quite a while, but after the costume designer fun wore thin, I couldn't fool myself any longer that I was doing exactly the same thing at level 1 as I was at level 50, with just slightly different mobs and a handful of new powers. More mission types and maps would have made it at least appear a little less repetitive.
Now if they added some twitch combat in, I would be seriously interested. No matter how pretty my character looks or the battle looks if I am reduced to pressing the same few powers, spawn after spawn there isn't a lot of challenge.
Just got the new gameinformer and this game looks amazing! It's everything people wanted in CoH! Better customization of costumes! Equipment with actual visuals that are toggleable! Base archetypes with access to all skills in game A entire world explorable not just a city! Action gameplay similar to marvel ultimate alliance rather then wow! Great graphics! Cel-shadingish, called "comic shading" by the devs. Customizable movement, so you can hover, pounce, hunker in to fit your theme! Crafting from the getgo! For 360 and PC WITH mixed play between the two. Plenty more stuff!
Being a big fan of CoH, this is exactly the mmorpg i was looking for! Screw war and aoc! It's all about champions online!
I have to say, the Action Gameplay bit really got my attention. I'm a big fan of CoH's character creator as well as MUA's beat-em-up style of gameplay, and the thought of getting both of them together in one game makes me a happy little computer nerd. It's still a way off, but I'll wait patiently for it...
...probably...
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Playing: Nothing Played: Champions Online, CoX, STO, PSO, WoW, lots of free-to-play crap Looking Forward To: DC Universe Online, Blade and Soul
I'm better at games than everyone else because I put more time in than everyone else. Not because I lucked out on my choice of build. Because I spent 4,000 hours learning the game and the limits of my toon while no one else had managed a 1,000. Being better than everybody else at video games isn't a goal in my life, it's a side effect of my lifestyle.
Yet with all that play time you never noticed that any scrapper could kill anything their own level even with all their defenses turned off, and well built regain scrappers were the Hammidon tank of choice because they needed only minimal healing. I won’t even go into the days when IH and MoG stacked. cough godmode cough.
This guy is getting bragadocious about the fact that he is an insane amount of free time that he cannot fill with anything better than video games. I'm a gamer, but Jesus Christ go outside, interact with some real life people every once in a while. The fact that you do not have a life does not make you "better" at video games than anyone else....it just makes you sad.
I'm better at games than everyone else because I put more time in than everyone else. Not because I lucked out on my choice of build. Because I spent 4,000 hours learning the game and the limits of my toon while no one else had managed a 1,000. Being better than everybody else at video games isn't a goal in my life, it's a side effect of my lifestyle.
Yet with all that play time you never noticed that any scrapper could kill anything their own level even with all their defenses turned off, and well built regain scrappers were the Hammidon tank of choice because they needed only minimal healing. I won’t even go into the days when IH and MoG stacked. cough godmode cough.
Actually, in all that time, I noticed that one scrapper was considerably weaker. Dark.
And that Regen and Invulnerability each had their own specific circumstances in which they excelled.
And no offense but Hammidon is one fight. One monster. Shall we nerf stone tanks because they have psi res and were the tank of choice against The Maiden?
Regen is a superior build for soloing, or for small groups. The mobs because of their lower numbers never overpower his regeneration. He is to all purposes immune to damage. In this circumstance, Dark and Invulnerability are also very effective, but they must take breaks between fights or pop heal pills, where a Regen can go straight on to the next fight. In this circumstance, the Regen finishes the level quicker. He gains XP faster, although the difficulty of monster he can defeat compared to the other builds is unaltered.
Invulnerability on the other hand is the superior build for 8 man teams and harder difficulty missions. Because of his % reductions to damage, he does not ever take more damage than his total hitpoints in any ione instant. If he picks a fight too big for him, he has time to run away, to hide behind the tank, pop a heal pill or get healed, etc etc etc. A Regen in this same circumstance simply dies on the first shot.
It really depends on your play style.
So true to the design brief of the game a regen is a superior solo build and an inferior team build. The side effect of this is that when there is no one around to group with, he is still earning XP. He goes up levels faster than everyone else in a game where there is no end game and people who level cap would leave.
P.S. as far as I aware you have never been able to heal or be healed during MoG. They don't stack. Mog is a usless skill, it will get you killed. Leave you in the middle of a fight with 100 hps. MoG only really had any use against the mana drainers, and against enemies with lots and lots of tiny damage minions (Rikti's for example) it was a suicide button. It's a get out of jail free card, pop it and run. I eliminated it from my build quite early on. It didn't suit my style. I've never felt it more powerful than the other scrappers similar powers of Elude and Invulnerability. It's a generic powertype found in every build.
So yes, in all my thousands of hours of play, I didn't notice that the other scrappers couldn't keep up with me. A lot of very vocal people with very few hours of play were noticing it, but only after being told about it by the dev's who were noticing the speed at which solo builds levelled. But only the moronic fanboys were buying into the "overpowered" routine. All the people with any actual experience of the game were disputing it.
At the same time Controllers were soloing AV's their own level and no one cared less. Why? because they still took ages to level up and that's what earns the dev's money. Subscription games first design priority is to time sink. To keep you subbed for as long as possible. They didn't have the content, the subs were falling, they couldn't make the content fast enough, so they balanced the game.
Another example of this mentality is the nerfing of fire tanks. Fire tanks, despite being substantially weaker than Invulnerability and more limited in terms of which enemies they were good to fight as the stone tank (fire vs physical only, stone vs psi and physical only) got nerfed hard. Why did they get nerfed? Because people were herding with them. They were levelling up too fast. The fire tank wasn't un-balanced compared to the other players, having a fire tank for your tank was a liability anywhere outside of a freak run (99% of the game). But the players were using it to level up fast. They were unbalancing Cryptics income stream.
I see no reason to believe that faced with a similar situation, they won't do exactly the same again in any other product they make. They made no apologies. The lead dev's attitude was "players come players go". He had no loyalty. He stabilised his population and must be thinking the whole episode a success.
Cryptic nerfs. They believe in nerfs. They are famous for nerfs. Read for yourself.
Originally posted by Anofalye This is why a willpower scrapper (or a tanker) regen more than a regen scrapper today? (IH can't be up even half the time, and without it, the willpower outregen a regen...especially a brute/tanker with more basic hps(thereby more regen as it work in % for raw numbers of hps healed)).
Yeah that's just not true. I have a regen and a WP and the Regen heals faster than the WP. Even without IH not up half the time (which with IOs just isn't true anymore) . They get two good heals and MoG has been fixed to make it a better option when used with IH.
I have 2 regen scrappers and 2 willpowers...and I tell you that willpower outregen a regen, especially tankers or brutes. Go figure out Mid Hero Designer for yourself.
As to the "overpowered myth". Half the players in fantasy plays Elves, thereby it isn't balance or fun. Let's nerf the elves. More nerfs. More nerfs. More nerfs.
Both regen and invul has been nerfed to hell because they are popular for ARTISTIC REASONS (About 30-40% of the heroes the designers created are either a regen or invul, so they are also affected by this coolness artitistic flavor, strangely enought, these NPCs are not nerfed and weak to lameness). Eh, less peoples playing these 2 setting make a better game? Nope, it slowly but certainly cripple the game. Granted that invul nerfs are nothing compared to regen nerfs, but...they are hellish.
As someone who play all these set, I find it extremely offensive that willpower is outright better then a regen on healing, and is closer to an invul than the invul is to a stoner on resists...adding that the stoner has an inate relatively decent regen on top... I never ask for nerfs, and never would. But see, Granite is the only set which never was nerfed (I have a stoner as well, talk of a no life eh. 2 regens, 2 willpower, an invul, an electric armor, a stoner...gah, I shouldn't have created that many different stuff, the game should be nice enought for me to stick with 1 or 2...not 7 melee toons). And it is the only set which is fine beside willpower (fiery is taking on scrappers, but that is another topic which involve boosting scrapper damage output). Regen has to see it regen value about double...and invul needs to see it resist value about double as well. And then, they will be in line with willpower and granite respectively...but past nerfs drop them to where they are, for PvP reasons...which...I don't PvP, nor care about PvP, nor want PvP to affect me in anyway.
IH is a temporary power which isn't up half the time. Rise to the Challenge is always effective when you need it (surrounded by enemies)...and it is a LOT better than integration...and more than half of what IH is...since IH isn't up half the time...we have a winner...don't forget that Rise to the Challenge also has a debuff on the enemy...LOL...or that the tier 1 of willpower = Invul tier 1 + tier 4 + tier 6 + hps + psi resist....WTF is that? Willpower is fine...Invul isn't. Nor is regen. They need fixing, badly.
MoG duration is 15 seconds...this power is fined tuned for gankers. Not for PvE lovers. This is clearly not "fixed", they please their gankers squad...not the overwhelming PvE majority...
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I'm better at games than everyone else because I put more time in than everyone else. Not because I lucked out on my choice of build. Because I spent 4,000 hours learning the game and the limits of my toon while no one else had managed a 1,000. Being better than everybody else at video games isn't a goal in my life, it's a side effect of my lifestyle.
Yet with all that play time you never noticed that any scrapper could kill anything their own level even with all their defenses turned off, and well built regain scrappers were the Hammidon tank of choice because they needed only minimal healing. I won’t even go into the days when IH and MoG stacked. cough godmode cough.
This guy is getting bragadocious about the fact that he is an insane amount of free time that he cannot fill with anything better than video games. I'm a gamer, but Jesus Christ go outside, interact with some real life people every once in a while. The fact that you do not have a life does not make you "better" at video games than anyone else....it just makes you sad.
It might make me sad, but it also makes me better. Practise makes perfect.
When all I did all day and night was sit around bars and nightclubs, I was better at drinking than everybody else. When you do something much more than other people, anything, you will be better at it than them. It's a given. The professional racing car driver is better with a car than me. I feel no shame about this. I might feel that he lives a sad and unintresting existance, but I would be foolish to dispute his prowess with a car.
I have plenty in life to brag about. Being good at video games, isn't something I take any particular pride in. It's a side effect of how I choose to live my life.
Originally posted by lomiller Yet with all that play time you never noticed that any scrapper could kill anything their own level even with all their defenses turned off, and well built regain scrappers were the Hammidon tank of choice because they needed only minimal healing. I won’t even go into the days when IH and MoG stacked. cough godmode cough.
This guy is getting bragadocious about the fact that he is an insane amount of free time that he cannot fill with anything better than video games. I'm a gamer, but Jesus Christ go outside, interact with some real life people every once in a while. The fact that you do not have a life does not make you "better" at video games than anyone else....it just makes you sad.
It might make me sad, but it also makes me better. Practise makes perfect.
When all I did all day and night was sit around bars and nightclubs, I was better at drinking than everybody else. When you do something much more than other people, anything, you will be better at it than them. It's a given. The professional racing car driver is better with a car than me. I feel no shame about this.
I have plenty in life to brag about. Being good at video games, isn't something I take any particular pride in. It's a side effect of how I choose to live my life.
I am quoting this, because it would resume Cryptic attitude toward players so far. Insulting, denigrating, laughing at.
But never taking you seriously. They don't care to ruins your gaming experience, just as these posters...and they will even insult you. This resume their whole interactions... No amount of comon sense from you Baff will change the attitude of these users...or of Crytpic, for all what it matters.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Comments
Only thing im upset about is that the game isnt skill based. I really wish developers would get over the whole level grind system.
-Jive
I think the class system this game proposes is actually a really good idea. When CoH was first in development they wanted a system that allowed players to choose any powers they wanted. However, it became very hard to balance. This class system will make it easier to balance but will allow customization of powers.
Really, after how many hours? If I got nerfed after only 50 hours I would not have lost much myself. I would perhaps not have blinked at the thought of doing it all over again.
Were you like level 20 when you got nerfed or something? It doesn't strike me that a regen who thought ED was the big nerf actually got nerfed at all.
I think you will find that the controllers who got nerfed weren't very happy about it either.
At the time they were nerfing Regens, Controllers were the only class able to solo bosses their own level and Invulnerability was the strongest defensive build.
All of which is completely irrelevant, COH is a team game, a co-operative game. An RPG. Who is the toughest in the team depended on the team not anyones specific build. It was also a complete irrelevance to the gameplay which depended on team play, not just one member of the team killing everything while the others picked their noses.
Regens got nerfed because they were the recommended solo class, and statistically they proved to be the people levelling up the fastest. They got nerfed because subscription games are money sinks. Once you max level, you stop subscribing, so a class that levels up fastest must be nerfed. Only it wasn't the powerset that made regens level fast, it was the type of player who chose solo builds. The dev's looked at the spreadsheet and min maxxed their income.
They weren't the hardest build in the game and they most certainly weren't harder than Controllers who definitely were the hardest build in the game. Laughable that you should choose a Controller as your example.
The only thing they were intrested in balancing was the books. They were responding to a drop off of subscriptions due to the lack of end game content.
Nothing had to be nerfed, there are a million and one other ways to rebalance a game. You could buff the others. You could buff the monsters.
You could do like with the aliens and make special monsters hunting down regens.
You could choose to add something to the game. But they didn't.
They chose the min/max. Minimum effort /maximum revenue.
Really, after how many hours? If I got nerfed after only 50 hours I would not have lost much myself. I would perhaps not have blinked at the thought of doing it all over again.
Were you like level 20 when you got nerfed or something? It doesn't strike me that a regen who thought ED was the big nerf actually got nerfed at all.
I think you will find that the controllers who got nerfed weren't very happy about it either.
At the time they were nerfing Regens, Controllers were the only class able to solo bosses their own level and Invulnerability was the strongest defensive build.
All of which is completely irrelevant, COH is a team game, a co-operative game. An RPG. Who is the toughest in the team depended on the team not anyones specific build. It was also a complete irrelevance to the gameplay which depended on team play, not just one member of the team killing everything while the others picked their noses.
Regens got nerfed because they were the recommended solo class, and statistically they proved to be the people levelling up the fastest. They got nerfed because subscription games are money sinks. Once you max level, you stop subscribing, so a class that levels up fastest must be nerfed. Only it wasn't the powerset that made regens level fast, it was the type of player who chose solo builds. The dev's looked at the spreadsheet and min maxxed their income.
They weren't the hardest build in the game and they most certainly weren't harder than Controllers who definitely were the hardest build in the game. Laughable that you should choose a Controller as your example.
Nothing had to be nerfed, there are a million and one other ways to rebalance a game. You could buff the others. You could buff the monsters.
You could do like with the aliens and make special monsters hunting down regens.
You could choose to add something to the game. But they didn't.
They chose the min/max. Minimum effort /maximum revenue.
So instead of rebalancing one class they should put in hundreds of hours to rebalance the entire game up? Also I had two regens. One was around 45-48 area at ED and the other was 30. Firrst was Katana second was Dark
Right........... So you weren't nerfed at all then.
Just as I thought.
ED wasn't the big nerf, it was the one months before that. I4. (Although there were others in I3, I2 and I1).
And yes the preferred solution was not to nerf the people who levelled fastest to stop them leaving the game, it was to create more end game content, so they have a reason to stay longer.
Nerfing them just ensured that they wouldn't re-sub when new content did eventually arrive.
Boo hoo, if that meant hundreds of hours of work. It's not like we weren't all paying them for every hour.
They nerfed the Regens because they were effictevly resistant to all types of damage indiscrimently and were overpowered. Adding end-game content wasn't going to change that. Also I played since the beggining of the game. Had full SOs and had spent plenty of time on the character. Since you left before ED obviously your "Nerf" was based on your power selection not on any enhancements you had so the fact I didn't have Hamis at the time wouldn't matter so what exactly about me being level 47 made me not nerfed? My powers were nerfed just the same as yours so go ahead and tell me again how I wasn't nerfed.
No. Regens were only resistant to physical damage. And only then with a pool power. Although since you didn't play one pre nerf, I don't expect you to understand.
That's why the scrapper next to you with Invulnerability is still standing when your Regen is dead. He can take more damage than you. You get one shotted and he does not.
And I did have Hammy's at the time.
But you still don't get it. ED wasn't the big nerf for Regens. I4 was.
They had already been devastated long before ED. ED was their 5th nerf.
And yes at level 47 ED won't have had much effect on you. You won't have spent 1,000's of hours grinding for a full set of 53's. You wont have spent hundreds of hours perfecting your build and attack routines.
To be nerfed they have to actually take something away from your character. Not just someone you knows.
As I said, if you haven't been hit by the nerf bat, you won't understand. You'll just spend your life thinking all who got it deserved it. Until it's your turn.
There are still SWG players arguing that the nerfs didn't affect anyone either. You have to understand, players won't forgive being nerfed. It takes away something they have paid for and spent significant amounts of their free time building. There's no point crying "balance" or it's "for the good of the game". When you steal from someone they won't trust you anymore.
It clearly wasn't for the good of my game. So I'll keep my money.
No I just spent hundreds of hours playing and perfecting my character at 47. I never did grind out 53s your right. How aweful of me to think I got nerfed when I was 47 and had played a long time. Forgive me for not being as perfect as you all mighty one.
And Regens might not have been actually resistant to damage but they were effectivly resistant to all types. This is because the regenerate regarless and thus over a period of time take less damage regardless of whether its psionic or leathal or smashing or what have you.
But if you don't want to play Champions fine. Don't. I'm not going to try and convince you because obviously I am too lowly to know anything about anything. Oh and by the way I had a level 50 tanker at ED and I though it as ok that I got nerfed on him so I know what it's like to be nerfed.
You didn't get nerfed but you claimed you did. You aren't lowly, you are lucky. You are the one still enjoying the game, and I am the one jaded by it.
If you were level 48 at ED, then you weren't level 47 at the I4 nerfs. ED didn't upset? Excellent.
Regens can regenerate damage, which means they are effectively resitant to Dps lower than their Hps.
Unfortunately by the time you get to max level this is irrelevant since mobs do more than your total HPs damage and you are dead in one shot. So even though you are not a blaster, you still have to hide behind the tank and only attack what is taunted. Unlike the invulnerbility scrapper, who only takes a % of the damage and cannot be one shotted, can heal himself and be healed. Can fight in the front row. The Regen however is just a pancake, he's substituted attack for a defense that doesn't cut it. He can't fight on his own and he does less DPS than the other second rows.
I'm sorry to hear about your 50 tanker at ED, and I'm sure you do know what nerfs are. However after ED could your tank still tank mobs his own level? Regen couldn't after I4. Not even 15 levels below. And again i cannot emphasise enough what a demoraliser it is to have all your hard grinded 53's rendered useless after the amount of time it took to get them.
I'm not trying to steal your moral high ground. I'm attempting to explain why nerfs are not fun. What it is people lose and why they get upset about it. No one minds minor nerfs. We can all live with those, it's the big fun-breakers that people hate. Anthing that removes a stlye of play you enjoyed, the ability to perform actions you found fun, or removes things from you that took a very long time to acquire.
I'm not sold on Champions yet. I may well play it, I enjoyed COH, but COH ended badly for me. I have no trust in their developers. They didn't earn my loyalty.
Plus they don't have a publisher yet. They've already been dropped by a big one.
If this game ever releases, I'll most certainly play it, possibly I'll wait for a trial though.
I think this is great news! I used to play the Pnp version many years ago! It's just sad that news like this is overshadowed in this thread by the "Waaaah! I got nerfed! Waaahhhh!!!"
Get over it and move on.
Why is there no official site, and why can I not find even one single SS online right now?
The official site is set to be launched tommorow when Cryptic officially announces the MMO.
I'll concede this argument. I felt i got nerfed, but you feel you got nerfed worse. I think they were needed to help gameplay over all. All in all I doubt it will be tat bad in CO because this time they are not new at MMO design. Although the more choices you have the harder it is to balance so we'll see.
sounds a bit too good almost great news sir I concur
Baff while i can understand why your upst, at the same time i simply find it unrealistic.
It simply isn't pheasable to buff the game around overpowered classes.
If you do this, eventually you'd end up with one that was buffed too much, and then you'd have to buff everyone all over again. Then buff all the mobs. IT simply is not a realistic option.
And despite all the nerfs done to coh... The balance of the game today is better then it ever was.
Healthy competition, I like it. May the best superhero mmo win.
Yet with all that play time you never noticed that any scrapper could kill anything their own level even with all their defenses turned off, and well built regain scrappers were the Hammidon tank of choice because they needed only minimal healing. I won’t even go into the days when IH and MoG stacked. cough godmode cough.
Is there some videos for this? I play CoH
Nice to see Cryptic are coming back fighting after MUO knock.
I would have hoped someone other than Cryptic were using the Champions system, but there is always the hope they don't end up going the same way with it as CoH. It isn't a bad game and I played it for quite a while, but after the costume designer fun wore thin, I couldn't fool myself any longer that I was doing exactly the same thing at level 1 as I was at level 50, with just slightly different mobs and a handful of new powers. More mission types and maps would have made it at least appear a little less repetitive.
Now if they added some twitch combat in, I would be seriously interested. No matter how pretty my character looks or the battle looks if I am reduced to pressing the same few powers, spawn after spawn there isn't a lot of challenge.
I have to say, the Action Gameplay bit really got my attention. I'm a big fan of CoH's character creator as well as MUA's beat-em-up style of gameplay, and the thought of getting both of them together in one game makes me a happy little computer nerd. It's still a way off, but I'll wait patiently for it...
...probably...
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Playing: Nothing
Played: Champions Online, CoX, STO, PSO, WoW, lots of free-to-play crap
Looking Forward To: DC Universe Online, Blade and Soul
Yet with all that play time you never noticed that any scrapper could kill anything their own level even with all their defenses turned off, and well built regain scrappers were the Hammidon tank of choice because they needed only minimal healing. I won’t even go into the days when IH and MoG stacked. cough godmode cough.
This guy is getting bragadocious about the fact that he is an insane amount of free time that he cannot fill with anything better than video games. I'm a gamer, but Jesus Christ go outside, interact with some real life people every once in a while. The fact that you do not have a life does not make you "better" at video games than anyone else....it just makes you sad.
Yet with all that play time you never noticed that any scrapper could kill anything their own level even with all their defenses turned off, and well built regain scrappers were the Hammidon tank of choice because they needed only minimal healing. I won’t even go into the days when IH and MoG stacked. cough godmode cough.
Actually, in all that time, I noticed that one scrapper was considerably weaker. Dark.
And that Regen and Invulnerability each had their own specific circumstances in which they excelled.
And no offense but Hammidon is one fight. One monster. Shall we nerf stone tanks because they have psi res and were the tank of choice against The Maiden?
Regen is a superior build for soloing, or for small groups. The mobs because of their lower numbers never overpower his regeneration. He is to all purposes immune to damage. In this circumstance, Dark and Invulnerability are also very effective, but they must take breaks between fights or pop heal pills, where a Regen can go straight on to the next fight. In this circumstance, the Regen finishes the level quicker. He gains XP faster, although the difficulty of monster he can defeat compared to the other builds is unaltered.
Invulnerability on the other hand is the superior build for 8 man teams and harder difficulty missions. Because of his % reductions to damage, he does not ever take more damage than his total hitpoints in any ione instant. If he picks a fight too big for him, he has time to run away, to hide behind the tank, pop a heal pill or get healed, etc etc etc. A Regen in this same circumstance simply dies on the first shot.
It really depends on your play style.
So true to the design brief of the game a regen is a superior solo build and an inferior team build. The side effect of this is that when there is no one around to group with, he is still earning XP. He goes up levels faster than everyone else in a game where there is no end game and people who level cap would leave.
P.S. as far as I aware you have never been able to heal or be healed during MoG. They don't stack. Mog is a usless skill, it will get you killed. Leave you in the middle of a fight with 100 hps. MoG only really had any use against the mana drainers, and against enemies with lots and lots of tiny damage minions (Rikti's for example) it was a suicide button. It's a get out of jail free card, pop it and run. I eliminated it from my build quite early on. It didn't suit my style. I've never felt it more powerful than the other scrappers similar powers of Elude and Invulnerability. It's a generic powertype found in every build.
So yes, in all my thousands of hours of play, I didn't notice that the other scrappers couldn't keep up with me. A lot of very vocal people with very few hours of play were noticing it, but only after being told about it by the dev's who were noticing the speed at which solo builds levelled. But only the moronic fanboys were buying into the "overpowered" routine. All the people with any actual experience of the game were disputing it.
At the same time Controllers were soloing AV's their own level and no one cared less. Why? because they still took ages to level up and that's what earns the dev's money. Subscription games first design priority is to time sink. To keep you subbed for as long as possible. They didn't have the content, the subs were falling, they couldn't make the content fast enough, so they balanced the game.
Another example of this mentality is the nerfing of fire tanks. Fire tanks, despite being substantially weaker than Invulnerability and more limited in terms of which enemies they were good to fight as the stone tank (fire vs physical only, stone vs psi and physical only) got nerfed hard. Why did they get nerfed? Because people were herding with them. They were levelling up too fast. The fire tank wasn't un-balanced compared to the other players, having a fire tank for your tank was a liability anywhere outside of a freak run (99% of the game). But the players were using it to level up fast. They were unbalancing Cryptics income stream.
I see no reason to believe that faced with a similar situation, they won't do exactly the same again in any other product they make. They made no apologies. The lead dev's attitude was "players come players go". He had no loyalty. He stabilised his population and must be thinking the whole episode a success.
Cryptic nerfs. They believe in nerfs. They are famous for nerfs. Read for yourself.
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=cryptic+nerfs&meta=
Yeah that's just not true. I have a regen and a WP and the Regen heals faster than the WP. Even without IH not up half the time (which with IOs just isn't true anymore) . They get two good heals and MoG has been fixed to make it a better option when used with IH.
I have 2 regen scrappers and 2 willpowers...and I tell you that willpower outregen a regen, especially tankers or brutes. Go figure out Mid Hero Designer for yourself.
As to the "overpowered myth". Half the players in fantasy plays Elves, thereby it isn't balance or fun. Let's nerf the elves. More nerfs. More nerfs. More nerfs.
Both regen and invul has been nerfed to hell because they are popular for ARTISTIC REASONS (About 30-40% of the heroes the designers created are either a regen or invul, so they are also affected by this coolness artitistic flavor, strangely enought, these NPCs are not nerfed and weak to lameness). Eh, less peoples playing these 2 setting make a better game? Nope, it slowly but certainly cripple the game. Granted that invul nerfs are nothing compared to regen nerfs, but...they are hellish.
As someone who play all these set, I find it extremely offensive that willpower is outright better then a regen on healing, and is closer to an invul than the invul is to a stoner on resists...adding that the stoner has an inate relatively decent regen on top... I never ask for nerfs, and never would. But see, Granite is the only set which never was nerfed (I have a stoner as well, talk of a no life eh. 2 regens, 2 willpower, an invul, an electric armor, a stoner...gah, I shouldn't have created that many different stuff, the game should be nice enought for me to stick with 1 or 2...not 7 melee toons). And it is the only set which is fine beside willpower (fiery is taking on scrappers, but that is another topic which involve boosting scrapper damage output). Regen has to see it regen value about double...and invul needs to see it resist value about double as well. And then, they will be in line with willpower and granite respectively...but past nerfs drop them to where they are, for PvP reasons...which...I don't PvP, nor care about PvP, nor want PvP to affect me in anyway.
IH is a temporary power which isn't up half the time. Rise to the Challenge is always effective when you need it (surrounded by enemies)...and it is a LOT better than integration...and more than half of what IH is...since IH isn't up half the time...we have a winner...don't forget that Rise to the Challenge also has a debuff on the enemy...LOL...or that the tier 1 of willpower = Invul tier 1 + tier 4 + tier 6 + hps + psi resist....WTF is that? Willpower is fine...Invul isn't. Nor is regen. They need fixing, badly.
MoG duration is 15 seconds...this power is fined tuned for gankers. Not for PvE lovers. This is clearly not "fixed", they please their gankers squad...not the overwhelming PvE majority...
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Yet with all that play time you never noticed that any scrapper could kill anything their own level even with all their defenses turned off, and well built regain scrappers were the Hammidon tank of choice because they needed only minimal healing. I won’t even go into the days when IH and MoG stacked. cough godmode cough.
This guy is getting bragadocious about the fact that he is an insane amount of free time that he cannot fill with anything better than video games. I'm a gamer, but Jesus Christ go outside, interact with some real life people every once in a while. The fact that you do not have a life does not make you "better" at video games than anyone else....it just makes you sad.
It might make me sad, but it also makes me better. Practise makes perfect.
When all I did all day and night was sit around bars and nightclubs, I was better at drinking than everybody else. When you do something much more than other people, anything, you will be better at it than them. It's a given. The professional racing car driver is better with a car than me. I feel no shame about this. I might feel that he lives a sad and unintresting existance, but I would be foolish to dispute his prowess with a car.
I have plenty in life to brag about. Being good at video games, isn't something I take any particular pride in. It's a side effect of how I choose to live my life.
This guy is getting bragadocious about the fact that he is an insane amount of free time that he cannot fill with anything better than video games. I'm a gamer, but Jesus Christ go outside, interact with some real life people every once in a while. The fact that you do not have a life does not make you "better" at video games than anyone else....it just makes you sad.
It might make me sad, but it also makes me better. Practise makes perfect.When all I did all day and night was sit around bars and nightclubs, I was better at drinking than everybody else. When you do something much more than other people, anything, you will be better at it than them. It's a given. The professional racing car driver is better with a car than me. I feel no shame about this.
I have plenty in life to brag about. Being good at video games, isn't something I take any particular pride in. It's a side effect of how I choose to live my life.
I am quoting this, because it would resume Cryptic attitude toward players so far. Insulting, denigrating, laughing at.
But never taking you seriously. They don't care to ruins your gaming experience, just as these posters...and they will even insult you. This resume their whole interactions... No amount of comon sense from you Baff will change the attitude of these users...or of Crytpic, for all what it matters.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren