I wasn't very happy after those nerfs. No common sense from me. That was an ugly break up for that game and me.
I wasn't reasonable then.
My every post was like "Cryptic is going to go out of business because...NCsoft will die because".
I was really jaded about the whole thing.
It took me a long time to remember how much of an enjoyable game they made. And ever since I've had alot of sympathy with anyone who cries nerfs. I thought I would go play SWG after that, but as I checked the forums they were doing their big nerf simultaneously to cryptics, so I didn't bother.
I feel like you that it is a clear sign of disregard for their players/customers. A clear sign of an attitude problem that will continue to upset. shame really because they make excellent games.
Perhaps if they made it and then sold it to SOE and let them take over the support.... that would work quite nicely for me.
That's what happened to Vanguard and Matrix after Microsoft dropped them too, so there is a reasonable possibility.
And that Regen and Invulnerability each had their own specific circumstances in which they excelled. And no offense but Hammidon is one fight. One monster. Shall we nerf stone tanks because they have psi res and were the tank of choice against The Maiden?
Regen is a superior build for soloing, or for small groups. The mobs because of their lower numbers never overpower his regeneration. He is to all purposes immune to damage. In this circumstance, Dark and Invulnerability are also very effective, but they must take breaks between fights or pop heal pills, where a Regen can go straight on to the next fight. In this circumstance, the Regen finishes the level quicker. He gains XP faster, although the difficulty of monster he can defeat compared to the other builds is unaltered. Invulnerability on the other hand is the superior build for 8 man teams and harder difficulty missions. Because of his % reductions to damage, he does not ever take more damage than his total hitpoints in any ione instant. If he picks a fight too big for him, he has time to run away, to hide behind the tank, pop a heal pill or get healed, etc etc etc. A Regen in this same circumstance simply dies on the first shot. So yes, in all my thousands of hours of play, I didn't notice that the other scrappers couldn't keep up with me. A lot of very vocal people with very few hours of play were noticing it, but only after being told about it by the dev's who were noticing the speed at which solo builds levelled. But only the moronic fanboys were buying into the "overpowered" routine. All the people with any actual experience of the game were disputing it. At the same time Controllers were soloing AV's their own level and no one cared less. Why? because they still took ages to level up and that's what earns the dev's money. Subscription games first design priority is to time sink. To keep you subbed for as long as possible. They didn't have the content, the subs were falling, they couldn't make the content fast enough, so they balanced the game.
Regain scrappers could tank anything that didn’t kill them in 1 hit, and with dull pain running there wasn’t an AV in the game that could do that. You could slot so that it took all of 6 seconds to recover for 1hp to full health, and no mob in the game could sustain anywhere near the damage required to overcome that.
As long as you didn’t make a habit of jumping into large groups who would all hit you at once you literally could not die. I don’t see how anyone can claim a class that cannot be killed unless the player does something stupid and has the highest DPS in the game wasn’t overpowered. I’m not saying Regain is properly balanced now, but soloing mission on higher difficulty levels is still easy, and there is no problem holding a DPS spot on a larger team. Other sets may be better, but Regain is hardly unplayable.
Inv, was overpowered too. Depending on what point you are talking about the could mitigate or avoid 99.75 of all damage directed at them. IOW took 80 000 points of damage to kill an Inv scrapper when most mobs only hit for 300-400. You needed to direct 6000 points of damage at them per second just to overcome their unaugmented health regain. They could go AFK with 50+ minion/Lt class mobs beating on them, and not be at any risk. With a few carfully selected skills they could take that over 100. Again I don’t see how anyone can argue that isn’t massively overpowered for a DPS class.
Originally posted by baff
P.S. as far as I aware you have never been able to heal or be healed during MoG. They don't stack. Mog is a usless skill, it will get you killed. Leave you in the middle of a fight with 100 hps. MoG only really had any use against the mana drainers, and against enemies with lots and lots of tiny damage minions (Rikti's for example) it was a suicide button. It's a get out of jail free card, pop it and run. I eliminated it from my build quite early on. It didn't suit my style. I've never felt it more powerful than the other scrappers similar powers of Elude and Invulnerability. It's a generic powertype found in every build.
Initially they stacked and the complaints about the nerf were loud and long. MoG is acutely a pretty heavy duty defensive skill. You have 10% health but non-psi attacks can’t lay a finger on you. MoG is what the annoying Paragon Protectors use. Some use Unstoppable, but those ones go down pretty easy even after they trigger it.
Originally posted by baff
Another example of this mentality is the nerfing of fire tanks. Fire tanks, despite being substantially weaker than Invulnerability and more limited in terms of which enemies they were good to fight as the stone tank (fire vs physical only, stone vs psi and physical only) got nerfed hard. Why did they get nerfed? Because people were herding with them. They were levelling up too fast. The fire tank wasn't un-balanced compared to the other players, having a fire tank for your tank was a liability anywhere outside of a freak run (99% of the game). But the players were using it to level up fast. They were unbalancing Cryptics income stream.
Fire tank is another class I happen to have played, in fact it's the only time I chose a class because I knew it was overpowered and can say first hand they were nerfed repeatedly because they were overpowered to the point of silly.
Yes they have weaker defenses then other tanks but these could be supplemented with pool powers so you could still cap your damage resist. They also have by far the best self heals of any tank, and even after multiple nerfs burn was insane damage. An AE that can 2 hit any mob below boss level in the hands of tank with caped damage resist and self heals is overpowered by any measure.
your arguement is so persuasive, so filled with knowledge and insight. You back up your argument very articulately, with suggestions of improvements and raising examples to glorify your position....oh wait, you didn't
Dunno these game looks good on paper , but will it really survive after massive marketing , beta hype , then players saying its lame 3 weeks after release..
Originally posted by baff I wasn't very happy after those nerfs. No common sense from me. That was an ugly break up for that game and me. I wasn't reasonable then. My every post was like "Cryptic is going to go out of business because...NCsoft will die because". I was really jaded about the whole thing.
It took me a long time to remember how much of an enjoyable game they made. And ever since I've had alot of sympathy with anyone who cries nerfs. I thought I would go play SWG after that, but as I checked the forums they were doing their big nerf simultaneously to cryptics, so I didn't bother. I feel like you that it is a clear sign of disregard for their players/customers. A clear sign of an attitude problem that will continue to upset. shame really because they make excellent games. Perhaps if they made it and then sold it to SOE and let them take over the support.... that would work quite nicely for me. That's what happened to Vanguard and Matrix after Microsoft dropped them too, so there is a reasonable possibility.
I came to CoH right before ED. Man I loved my regen scrapper. I just hit level 32 I think. I had all my favorite powers 6 slot. Next thing you know ED happened. ARGH!!!!
It wasnt so bad we all got nerfed--- no. What was bad, unbearable, was the repetitive fighting from level 32->35. No powers to look forward too. No extra slots to look forward to either
It was a horrid game design decision. I quit for a few months til CoV came out. Stuck with it for a bit because I discovered the joy of getting powerleveled which made the grind much more pleasant. But even getting PLed got boring... zzZZZzzz
Their smart decision was adding more powersets tho I gotta admit. EM/ELA brute was fun to play. Loved my brute, the BIOs, and character custimization. The pvp wasnt great but felt original
They really dont care about their customers. We asked for so may simple features and the Devs just gave us the middle finger
Without a doubt the Villain superpowers (epic powers) were a joke and they refused to change it
They are horrible developers overall but I hope they have gotten much better with time
Originally posted by Sanctus_Mors Originally posted by TedDanson Why is there no official site, and why can I not find even one single SS online right now?
Your powers, on your terms: There are a multitude of astonishing powers to choose from in Champions Online, and its flexible character creation system gives you total control over your hero's abilities. You can even pick the appearance of your powers. Do you want purple force fields? Green fire blasts? Jet black claws? In Champions Online, you decide!
Keep your enemies close: Every hero must have an archenemy. In Champions Online, you design your character's supreme adversary, choosing a name, powers and costume for a superpowered foe to bedevil your hero throughout his or her career.
oh my this is just too good can they really pull this off?! CoH was supposed to be a skill-based system too but they dropped it right before launch. Will they stick to their guns, their vision this time?
Your powers, on your terms: There are a multitude of astonishing powers to choose from in Champions Online, and its flexible character creation system gives you total control over your hero's abilities. You can even pick the appearance of your powers. Do you want purple force fields? Green fire blasts? Jet black claws? In Champions Online, you decide!
Keep your enemies close: Every hero must have an archenemy. In Champions Online, you design your character's supreme adversary, choosing a name, powers and costume for a superpowered foe to bedevil your hero throughout his or her career.
oh my this is just too good can they really pull this off?! CoH was supposed to be a skill-based system too but they dropped it right before launch. Will they stick to their guns, their vision this time?
CoH dumped it because it was too hard to balance for how the powers work. With all they've learned, i could see it being a bit easier to balance from the getgo.
And considering some of the threads i've read(NOT relating to CO but rather mmos in general) it stands to reason it's possible to be higher then 15 IF the shift in prices occurs prior to it's release(I don't see it happening if it'd be the first to jump ship of the 15 fee)
Dunno these game looks good on paper , but will it really survive after massive marketing , beta hype , then players saying its lame 3 weeks after release..
Considering this is an improved CoX and CoX is still doing well I would yes it will survive. Just because a game isn’t as popular as WoW doesn’t mean it isn’t surviving.
Only thing im upset about is that the game isnt skill based. I really wish developers would get over the whole level grind system.
-Jive
Skill based games are very very hard to balance. And grinding skills is really no difference than grinding levels. At least you can grind levels with quests, which can be quite fun.
Being tied down to one linear path isn't fun either. While you may have more fun being walked down a path with your hands-tied, I have more fun doing what I want... when I want. Skill based systems offer true freedom, as well as countless ways to build your character. Now I am not saying questing can't be done with a skill based system as it can, it will just require people to think well beyond the box they live in.
As far as balance.... fuck balance. I am so sick of people bitching about why certain powers and abilities aren't as powerful as others. Thats the whole point of having different abilities, because they do different things... Why would I expect a build that is geared towards healing to do as much damage as a build based around damage. The point is do what you want and expect the consequences.
In light of my rant... Champions looks interesting.
One step at a time. They have to find someone willing to invest in the development first, or it won't ever get made, let alone survive for three months.
If I recall, they are going to publish it themselves.
Edit: Yep, they are...says it on their front page:
LOS GATOS, CA – February 20, 2008 – Cryptic Studios™, one of the leading independent developers of Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Games (MMORPGs), announced today Champions Online™, their first ever self-developed and self-published MMORPG. Champions Online, based on the popular pen-and-paper Champions RPG, will give players the power of total customization of their hero experience while they explore a vast universe of richly detailed 3D environments. Champions Online is slated for release in Spring 2009.
Edit again: Step 2 done, Step 3...early alpha/beta, from the magazine article early alpha is partway done
your arguement is so persuasive, so filled with knowledge and insight. You back up your argument very articulately, with suggestions of improvements and raising examples to glorify your position....oh wait, you didn't
Only thing im upset about is that the game isnt skill based. I really wish developers would get over the whole level grind system.
-Jive
Skill based games are very very hard to balance.
And grinding skills is really no difference than grinding levels. At least you can grind levels with quests, which can be quite fun.
I've argued this before but..
SKILL BASED AND LEVEL BASED ARE THE SAME THING AT IT'S CORE. THE EXACT SAME THING.
You raise heavy armor, swords, and healing magic, vs leveling a paladin. Same thing. The difference is the actual paladin could do MORE stuff then the combo spec of the skill system.
Skill based isn't inherently faster leveling.
Skill based leads to a game where you can create a character with your custom skill choices, ala oblivion. But at the same time, a class based game leads to more individuality between the classes.
But excluding all that.
Champions will be using a system where you can buy any skill but things not related to your base class cost more.
Only thing im upset about is that the game isnt skill based. I really wish developers would get over the whole level grind system.
-Jive
Skill based games are very very hard to balance.
And grinding skills is really no difference than grinding levels. At least you can grind levels with quests, which can be quite fun.
I've argued this before but..
SKILL BASED AND LEVEL BASED ARE THE SAME THING AT IT'S CORE. THE EXACT SAME THING.
You raise heavy armor, swords, and healing magic, vs leveling a paladin. Same thing. The difference is the actual paladin could do MORE stuff then the combo spec of the skill system.
Skill based isn't inherently faster leveling.
Skill based leads to a game where you can create a character with your custom skill choices, ala oblivion. But at the same time, a class based game leads to more individuality between the classes.
But excluding all that.
Champions will be using a system where you can buy any skill but things not related to your base class cost more.
First, while COH didn't keep my interest for as long as some other MMORPGs, it was a fantastic game. Great character customization (how do you improve on that?), fast, fun, good solo, good grouping, fun to Xp or do quests.
I did find the grouping slightly lacking. It was fun to group, but the soloing was so easy, that grouping was just for fun, not really necessary. I like it when it's necessary.
But, my biggest gripe with CoH was the pace. So fast that there was no time to chat or get to know pick up groups, because there was almost no down time, and travel required a lot of jumping or flying around buildings, etc.
So, I expect great things from the team that made CoH.
I like this sort of skill system the best of all. You can make all sorts of characters, but, you don't end up with tank mages (not super hero, but you know what I'm talking about).
If any character can take any skill, then it's simple. You just min/max between defense and offense, and everyone plays the same character.
But, when things not related to your base skill cost more, you can't make a tank mage or else you end up with a toon that's both a wimpy tank, and a wimpy mage. However, there's still enough leeway to add some spice to your character, and take some unusual skills. I like it. I like it alot.
Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by jiveturkey12 Only thing im upset about is that the game isnt skill based. I really wish developers would get over the whole level grind system.
-Jive
Skill based games are very very hard to balance. And grinding skills is really no difference than grinding levels. At least you can grind levels with quests, which can be quite fun.
you are RIGHT skiill-based games are Taboo in mmorpg space. But this is not how the original skill-based games like HERO / Champions / GURPS worked at all!!!
In the pen & paper you do missions and complete objectives. At the end of the session, you tell the GM what skills you trained and spend the points as you wish
Ultima Online / Elder scrolls employ use-based systems. A variant of skill based
Pen & Paper skill-based systems are very close to Level/Class based systems. You kinda earn 'skill points' completing fun objectives and allocate them to the skills you wish in a logical way
The systems are really totally different in many ways though. But would take much too long to explain and its late now
Ultima Online used a use based skill system as well...I became a Master Fisherman, badass...
I hope to see games revert to this style of advancement... Then again I thought I had read the other day that this game, Champion Online, was going to use a system like that.
Did I miss an announcement or something?
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
Comments
I wasn't very happy after those nerfs. No common sense from me. That was an ugly break up for that game and me.
I wasn't reasonable then.
My every post was like "Cryptic is going to go out of business because...NCsoft will die because".
I was really jaded about the whole thing.
It took me a long time to remember how much of an enjoyable game they made. And ever since I've had alot of sympathy with anyone who cries nerfs. I thought I would go play SWG after that, but as I checked the forums they were doing their big nerf simultaneously to cryptics, so I didn't bother.
I feel like you that it is a clear sign of disregard for their players/customers. A clear sign of an attitude problem that will continue to upset. shame really because they make excellent games.
Perhaps if they made it and then sold it to SOE and let them take over the support.... that would work quite nicely for me.
That's what happened to Vanguard and Matrix after Microsoft dropped them too, so there is a reasonable possibility.
Regain scrappers could tank anything that didn’t kill them in 1 hit, and with dull pain running there wasn’t an AV in the game that could do that. You could slot so that it took all of 6 seconds to recover for 1hp to full health, and no mob in the game could sustain anywhere near the damage required to overcome that.
Initially they stacked and the complaints about the nerf were loud and long. MoG is acutely a pretty heavy duty defensive skill. You have 10% health but non-psi attacks can’t lay a finger on you. MoG is what the annoying Paragon Protectors use. Some use Unstoppable, but those ones go down pretty easy even after they trigger it.
Fire tank is another class I happen to have played, in fact it's the only time I chose a class because I knew it was overpowered and can say first hand they were nerfed repeatedly because they were overpowered to the point of silly.
Yes they have weaker defenses then other tanks but these could be supplemented with pool powers so you could still cap your damage resist. They also have by far the best self heals of any tank, and even after multiple nerfs burn was insane damage. An AE that can 2 hit any mob below boss level in the hands of tank with caped damage resist and self heals is overpowered by any measure.
Vaporware.
Im calling it now.
"Without funk, is there hope for panda?" -Derivative of Ishmael
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A site for pro and recreational gaming.
All I know is this is a fine pnp rpg, and if they do it justice it'll plain rock!
your arguement is so persuasive, so filled with knowledge and insight. You back up your argument very articulately, with suggestions of improvements and raising examples to glorify your position....oh wait, you didn't
Dunno these game looks good on paper , but will it really survive after massive marketing , beta hype , then players saying its lame 3 weeks after release..
I came to CoH right before ED. Man I loved my regen scrapper. I just hit level 32 I think. I had all my favorite powers 6 slot. Next thing you know ED happened. ARGH!!!!
It wasnt so bad we all got nerfed--- no. What was bad, unbearable, was the repetitive fighting from level 32->35. No powers to look forward too. No extra slots to look forward to either
It was a horrid game design decision. I quit for a few months til CoV came out. Stuck with it for a bit because I discovered the joy of getting powerleveled which made the grind much more pleasant. But even getting PLed got boring... zzZZZzzz
Their smart decision was adding more powersets tho I gotta admit. EM/ELA brute was fun to play. Loved my brute, the BIOs, and character custimization. The pvp wasnt great but felt original
They really dont care about their customers. We asked for so may simple features and the Devs just gave us the middle finger
Without a doubt the Villain superpowers (epic powers) were a joke and they refused to change it
They are horrible developers overall but I hope they have gotten much better with time
Thanks for the link adding it to the OP
I must admit I'm getting really excited this site looks good. I always complained why dont devs look at Champions / HERO system....
Good luck cryptic.....
I for one am totally excited about this game.
Let's see...here are my eyeballs bugging out after reading the website...
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
oh my this is just too good can they really pull this off?! CoH was supposed to be a skill-based system too but they dropped it right before launch. Will they stick to their guns, their vision this time?
oh my this is just too good can they really pull this off?! CoH was supposed to be a skill-based system too but they dropped it right before launch. Will they stick to their guns, their vision this time?
CoH dumped it because it was too hard to balance for how the powers work. With all they've learned, i could see it being a bit easier to balance from the getgo.
Looks great I like how its gonna have so much customization theres nothing I hate more then seeing someone that looks like me.
f2p? p2p ones? p2p monthly?
the graphics look awesome
And considering some of the threads i've read(NOT relating to CO but rather mmos in general) it stands to reason it's possible to be higher then 15 IF the shift in prices occurs prior to it's release(I don't see it happening if it'd be the first to jump ship of the 15 fee)
Considering this is an improved CoX and CoX is still doing well I would yes it will survive. Just because a game isn’t as popular as WoW doesn’t mean it isn’t surviving.
One step at a time.
They have to find someone willing to invest in the development first, or it won't ever get made, let alone survive for three months.
Skill based games are very very hard to balance.
And grinding skills is really no difference than grinding levels. At least you can grind levels with quests, which can be quite fun.
As far as balance.... fuck balance. I am so sick of people bitching about why certain powers and abilities aren't as powerful as others. Thats the whole point of having different abilities, because they do different things... Why would I expect a build that is geared towards healing to do as much damage as a build based around damage. The point is do what you want and expect the consequences.
In light of my rant... Champions looks interesting.
If I recall, they are going to publish it themselves.
Edit: Yep, they are...says it on their front page:
LOS GATOS, CA – February 20, 2008 – Cryptic Studios™, one of the leading independent developers of Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Games (MMORPGs), announced today Champions Online™, their first ever self-developed and self-published MMORPG. Champions Online, based on the popular pen-and-paper Champions RPG, will give players the power of total customization of their hero experience while they explore a vast universe of richly detailed 3D environments. Champions Online is slated for release in Spring 2009.
Edit again: Step 2 done, Step 3...early alpha/beta, from the magazine article early alpha is partway done
your arguement is so persuasive, so filled with knowledge and insight. You back up your argument very articulately, with suggestions of improvements and raising examples to glorify your position....oh wait, you didn't
I also read somewhere (in ther forums or website I believe) that Heroes Systems will publish the comic books and ship the game.
Skill based games are very very hard to balance.
And grinding skills is really no difference than grinding levels. At least you can grind levels with quests, which can be quite fun.
I've argued this before but..SKILL BASED AND LEVEL BASED ARE THE SAME THING AT IT'S CORE. THE EXACT SAME THING.
You raise heavy armor, swords, and healing magic, vs leveling a paladin. Same thing. The difference is the actual paladin could do MORE stuff then the combo spec of the skill system.
Skill based isn't inherently faster leveling.
Skill based leads to a game where you can create a character with your custom skill choices, ala oblivion. But at the same time, a class based game leads to more individuality between the classes.
But excluding all that.
Champions will be using a system where you can buy any skill but things not related to your base class cost more.
Skill based games are very very hard to balance.
And grinding skills is really no difference than grinding levels. At least you can grind levels with quests, which can be quite fun.
I've argued this before but..SKILL BASED AND LEVEL BASED ARE THE SAME THING AT IT'S CORE. THE EXACT SAME THING.
You raise heavy armor, swords, and healing magic, vs leveling a paladin. Same thing. The difference is the actual paladin could do MORE stuff then the combo spec of the skill system.
Skill based isn't inherently faster leveling.
Skill based leads to a game where you can create a character with your custom skill choices, ala oblivion. But at the same time, a class based game leads to more individuality between the classes.
But excluding all that.
Champions will be using a system where you can buy any skill but things not related to your base class cost more.
First, while COH didn't keep my interest for as long as some other MMORPGs, it was a fantastic game. Great character customization (how do you improve on that?), fast, fun, good solo, good grouping, fun to Xp or do quests.
I did find the grouping slightly lacking. It was fun to group, but the soloing was so easy, that grouping was just for fun, not really necessary. I like it when it's necessary.
But, my biggest gripe with CoH was the pace. So fast that there was no time to chat or get to know pick up groups, because there was almost no down time, and travel required a lot of jumping or flying around buildings, etc.
So, I expect great things from the team that made CoH.
I like this sort of skill system the best of all. You can make all sorts of characters, but, you don't end up with tank mages (not super hero, but you know what I'm talking about).
If any character can take any skill, then it's simple. You just min/max between defense and offense, and everyone plays the same character.
But, when things not related to your base skill cost more, you can't make a tank mage or else you end up with a toon that's both a wimpy tank, and a wimpy mage. However, there's still enough leeway to add some spice to your character, and take some unusual skills. I like it. I like it alot.
MMORPG Maker
And grinding skills is really no difference than grinding levels. At least you can grind levels with quests, which can be quite fun.
you are RIGHT skiill-based games are Taboo in mmorpg space. But this is not how the original skill-based games like HERO / Champions / GURPS worked at all!!!
In the pen & paper you do missions and complete objectives. At the end of the session, you tell the GM what skills you trained and spend the points as you wish
Ultima Online / Elder scrolls employ use-based systems. A variant of skill based
Pen & Paper skill-based systems are very close to Level/Class based systems. You kinda earn 'skill points' completing fun objectives and allocate them to the skills you wish in a logical way
The systems are really totally different in many ways though. But would take much too long to explain and its late now
Ultima Online used a use based skill system as well...I became a Master Fisherman, badass...
I hope to see games revert to this style of advancement... Then again I thought I had read the other day that this game, Champion Online, was going to use a system like that.
Did I miss an announcement or something?
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!