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A "Balanced discussion"
iceman00
Member Posts: 1,363
Lets try to keep the flamefests out. No "POTBS suxxorrzzz" or "no crying in the red zone" stuff here. There's a reason I goto these forums. You find people who care about games a lot here, and give ideas that are "out of the box" and many times won't be seen on the regular forums. Some of these ideas no doubt are, but some aren't.
Based on what I see, let me try to give a summation of some of the gripes, this coming from someone who is overall satisified with the game.
1.) Melee Combat is Borked.
I don't think even fans of the game can dispute this. Melee combat was clearly and afterthought in this game. Some will say "well this is being addressed in a future patch", but are you going to say people are not within their rights in saying that's sloppiness and laziness, especially for a game that was years in production?
2.) Small World
Right now the world is just too small, not a lot of exploration. As one critic said, you can get anywhere within 60 minutes. Now personally, this may not be a "negative" thing. I think the real problem would be a lot of the areas currently are not very well developed. Yes the game has a lot of ports, but these are small places. I think again this comes from adding exploration with avatars in as an afterthought. Personally I'd be for fewer ports, if those ports were wide and expansive. SWG had 9 planets, but those planets had a lot of area to them.
3.) Bugs
There are still a strong amount of bugs that are just unacceptable. Yes, all MMO's will have bugs. Yet rubber banding in ports is a fact of life. Today's patch, they borked, and as a result, ALL servers are now down for 12 hours. If such an unfortunate event should happen like this, players need to be credited with time. Knock a bit off the monthly fee. Yes it's something small, but it shows that if they mess up bigtime, they will not force you to pay for the full product.
4.) PvP ganking
Ganking is an unfortunate fact of life in any game that involves PvP. Anyone who says you can make a PvP game without any ganking is a hopeless idealist. The question then becomes: What mechanics are in place that encourage/discourage ganking? Right now, one cannot deny, this game has certain elements that encourage ganking. If a PvP fight starts, you can have people hang out in port, and make it there within 30 seconds, and it becomes a 6 on 1 fight. If their allies get stuck in the wind, and make it there in 31 seconds, tough. There are things on the forums that suggest, for example, quickly engaging an NPC and outrunning the NPC, then using your ad-hoc invisibility to get out of there. From someone who likes this game, that is absolute laziness, and based on current mechanics, darn near an exploit. You shouldn't be forced to use what sounds like an exploit to avoid getting ganked. There are two ways to fix this. Make it so you for the first minute when you come out of port, you can neither engage or be engaged. Or, do away with the 30 second timer.
5.) Endgame
Pirates are being forced to compete as a fourth nation, expecting to engage in battles where it's their ships versus national ships of the line. Such is hardly realistic. The thing is, I'm not entirely sure how to fix this. This was a bad design flaw.
6.) Economy
The economy is heading towards massive inflation and overstocking of goods. There is no authenticity to an economy. at an auction house, you can never have a clue who you are dealing with. Freetraders have little to no economic advantage over a naval officer. An officer in a royal navy should not be an economic powerhouse. He should be a naval powerhouse. At the rate it is going (at least on my server), all British port battles will have first or second rates within two months. This will not only shut out non-naval officers from any port battle, but most naval officers. Make goods more scarce by making production more scarce. Economics at its heart is the utilization of scarce goods that have alternative uses. Within 2 months, no goods will be scarce. The items that are of greatest worth now will be commonplace soon enough. This is not a viable economic strategy for a game.
I have tried to give a "fair and balanced" account, and suggest possible solutions. I think a lot of these would not be huge changes. Some people will not like these changes. Even though I like this game, I can understand and appreciate the bind FLS has put themselves in.
Thoughts?
Comments
Forgot to mention unrest decay. This cements the ganker mentality I believe. For example, from day one of the server flip, bluefields has been in the bubble, and has remained that way. People trying to do the story quest at level 15 cannot go there without an escort, or they risk getting ganked. And with the area in unrest, its very hard to reduce the unrest because you never see any pirates. As part of a temporary workaround, I've helped patrol the areas for my society mates to get through. Yet if unrest decay was there, you wouldn't have a permanent bubble. The pirates there aren't even bothering with building contention, they basically wait there to gank lvl 15's.
This is a game mechanic that if it was implemented, WAS ENTIRELY FORSEEABLE.
I play this regularly (50 pirate) and am somewhat satisfied. I'll say its a good start on what could be an great MMO for 'some' people.
1) Completely agree - Lots of room for improvement on this part.
2) Small World - I like 'big' MMO worlds (love the vanguard world) and on this particular MMO I think player density is more important then sheer size. Its IMO not too small for the current population and hopefully they will do server merges soon.
3) Bugs - Of course theres bugs like any MMO. Some of them are pretty annoying but they are working on them. Once the annoying ones are taken care of then it'll be business as usual. (patch then repatch to fix bugs with the patch - repeat)
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4)PVP Ganking - I think this is where POTBS is extremely different then other MMOs and why I play this game. This is not a game for everyone and many folks who want to zerg/respawn/repeat will not like this MMO. There are serious consequences if you get sunk. Many people feel its about time there are consequences.
A) First of all PvP is optional. If I want I can avoid pvp and not get into a battle for a month. Theres many threads on many forums that detail how to avoid it if your a strickly pve person. If a person refuses to read these and apply these methods then they will die. Its their choice to apply these easy methods.
C) Since lower level can contribute to their nations war then yes, they will be KOS. This is where theres a big misunderstanding. That level 9 in a bermuda sloop is probably sneaking out unrest supplies or SOL parts. It happens every day and those unrest materials will be used to greatly do more damage to us then sinking that sloop. Those SOL parts will be used to build a 1st rate or 2nd rate that will destroy our nation in a port battle, and yes, the Iron ore will be used to make those parts.
D) Player skill rules. Being ready to handle any situation. There are some players that you'll need 2-3 ships to sink they are that good. Its not a matter of whoever has 'x' loot wins. A GOOD THING! I did most of my leveling in red zones and sure, I got sunk a lot at first but by the time I was ~30 I could survive fairly well.
E) Expect to lose whatever you bring to the red zone. If losing 'X' ship is going to make you /ragequit then dont bring it. There is no 'i win' button and I've been beaten by most of the folks on the server and I've also sunk them as well.
F) If you always have to have a fair fight then go play Mortal Kombat. Getting caught unprepared and at untimely moments happens and you can bet that your enemy is trying to catch you in that position all the time.
G) If you DO get caught in the red zone unprepared and get sunk dont run to the forums and tell the world how you got ganked because you were unprepared and its so unfair you didnt have the perfect scenario to 'pvp' in. Learn to be prepared. If you are prepared its the best PVP I ever seen.
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5 ) Endgame. I agree... bad design. Theres a way to win a defensive PB but I dont see any map wins until things change. Im sure there will be much more development in this area.
6) Economy is borked. I think everyone has a different reason why. I think low density of players and not enough demand. Demand is created through loss of supplies by pvp losses or shipments not making it through. Its too easy to manufacture outside of the dangers of war IMO. Or maybe its working as intended and I'm just not very good at it. lol
In the end I think its a pretty good MMO. Its not for those who want to have everything handed to them. I like it because it has a danger aspect I cant seem to find in other MMOs out atm. I think too many folks expect easy mode now days. I'll be playing it for awhile ( Im sure I'll try Warhammer ).
Palazious <The Vindicators> Darkfall
Palazious r40, rr45 SW War
Palazious 50 Pirate PoTBS
Palazious 35 Sorcerer Vanguard
Palazious 75 wizard EQ
Paladori 50 Champion LOTRO
Poppa Reaver bugged at rank15
Here's what I said on the forums:
Not all fights are going to be fair. However, game mechanics should not exist that remove the possibility of fairness for each fight.
I'm not for protecting bad mistakes. yet I got it confirmed that turning contention decay off, in hindsight, rusty admitted it probably wasn't a smart idea, as it opened up a situation that is completely unacceptable. No perpetual gank bubbles. If your gonna attack a port, attack a port. Me, i'd accept that if the British successully enter and hold an area for an hour, contention should start to reduce. If your not going to have a full raid on the port, then let it cause a few days of hell, and move along. Change this, along with some sort of warning (I don't view it fair for a port to be peaceful one second, then out of nowhere pop into unrest as someone is sailing out, then they get ganked. Though from what I hear that is being changed to, which is another positive development.
Lots of fixes needed, though like any mmo, there always will be. as for melee combat and ship npc combat the fixes that need implemented are server and speed based. the server sees a problem an implements the solution disregarding the time it takes, or lack thereof. npc ships for example obviously have nuclear engines and autoloaders as 99% of the time they outperform way out of the envelope. having a mission 4th rate sitting in one spot out turning a ship 10 times faster than it is indeed humorous, until it fires out of arc and keeps that turn up, again thats the server solving a problem and cheating while it does it. same thing with melee, too fast and way to jerky, again the servers answer to getting its avatars where they need to be and getting them "caught up" in melee combat. devs need to fix both of these.
pvp ganking? i really see this as a choice if you get ganked, there is no crying in the red circle, everyone knows this, its hard to get ganked if you know what your doing up to impossible to get ganked when you stay away from red circles. maybe for the folks that dont like pvp... a 30 second warning they are in a pvp zone? maybe they are colorblind etc, that warning giving them a bit of time to get out before they become fodder.
endgame, same as with any mmo, what endgame. they would need a complete set of devs working nothing but endgame to keep folks happy.
small world, def, they need more and larger areas, i would def like to go months of missions, traveling without seeing some of the same folks on my server.
the economy is saturating, not inflating, at least on our server,prices are dropping as they should be when things dont sell and stock builds up. supplies are infinite in an mmo so after the initial greed binge prices will always go down. folks need to keep in mind high prices are temporary and will occurr for two reasons only. one, if the server pop is low and folks dont produce something or somehow everyone gets together and they buy all cheap items continuously (unrealistic but possible.)
the economy in any mmo is no economy. when supplies are infinite and everyone has the capabilities to manufacture anything its just simple greed that keeps prices high until the market saturates, like whats happening now and prices drop like they are doing now.
economies really need to be called "loot marketing". until a game can produce say, seasonal supplies, finite resources, say resources available only during a set time frame or one of supplies (one game did that but it died a few months ago), but then it gets too much like real life and we dont want that do we?
can you smell that?!!...............there is nothing quite like it.....................the smell of troll in the morning............i love that smell.
I'd take an even shorter 5 or 10 second warning to get out of there, but I think that's not needed. Either increase the window when people can join a fight, or make it indefinite. I personally think "there's no crying in the red circle" applies both ways, to those who like 6 on 1's, and dealing with the fact if they don't finish him off quick, they could very well be looking at a 6 on 6.
I am now up to level 40 Naval Officer in this game and this says a lot since I am very impatient and have other MMO's that I can play and still love.
I take on board the OP's suggestions but I will tell you where I stand:
Bugs - TBH I still haven't come across any glaring bugs and I am being serious. Apart from some NPC text coming out all wrong. Either way it runs really well on my PC and 100% more stable than Vanguard at launch.
Red Zones / PvP - Ganking only happens to the stupid. This is fact. Up to level 40 I have been hit twice and I roam in red zones a lot and still do plenty of missions in those ports. Remember once you are in the port you can safely do missions without risk. Its just common sense. Watch for enemies, watch the wind and then move in. 1st time I got hit I was a noob and didnt know I was in a PvP zone. The 2nd I bought a sloop and I was in a high density area. So my point is a level 15 player can still get to Bluefields and do missions.
Avatar combat - this is a funny one. its nothing special but I don't mind some of the animations. It can be polished but its not horrendous. Also give credit to the developers as well. I saw plenty of articles pre launch from the developers saying that Avatar combat was a very late decision and they thought it sucked.
Map - This is probably where I have my biggest gripe. The game is great for players who are seeking a decent PvE game with a large PvP end game. However I hear the complaints on the exploration side. I dont mind the map size but I am dissapointed with the graghics on the shore and the ports themselves. I would prefer if the map was twice as big so the ports can be huge compared to the ships but to counter travel time make ships twice as fast. I think this game could be great if they added some key elements. 1) have rare map drops from NPC's and missions. These maps actually lead to a spot in the ocean or coastline where you can investigate and discover rare items etc. 2) Have expiditions that you can fund and there is a chance you can win big. These can be listed on the auction house and the time they take to go and come back. 3) Allow player housing later on but they can not be bought. Players should be able to become so famous or infamous that a mayor of a town will offer a house and land.
Market - i am on the EU server and IMO I don't mind the market system. in fact I love the auction system because you don't have 50 entries of the same item on the market. Plus you can see what the previous prices are. i dabble in the market and make decent cash from it on a daily basis. However I was very surprised that playing a NO I didn't seem to have any barriers to the market.
My big wish (which will not happen). As this is the new world I really hoped that they would allow player assistance to develop the actual world. You see plenty of ports that have animation of buildings being built etc. I would love it if majority of the ports were very underdeveloped. Then players and predominately privateers can shift goods such as timber and stone to their nations ports and this will speed up development of their structures. Even have a percentage chart showing progression. Think how great it would be having players speed up the building of defences and various useful structures?
The game for me is fun and some of the quest chains are pretty interesting. However like a lot of MMO's its had a pretty stable launch but its life span will depend on future developments and it has yet to find a 'soul'. Plus 12 hour downtime doesn't help! Especially when I was just about to finish a damn mission! thanks guys....
I'd like to point out that like EvE online and its 0.0 space, the idea is that a ship shouldn't be off by itself in a pvp zone, and doing so is literally asking to get ganked (which can be fun if you are able to out maneuveur the gank squad and they end up just wasting their time). The idea is that if a zone you need to go in is in pvp mode.. hire an escort. The game's about fleet vs fleet for the most part (even if they are tiny fleets), soloist pvprs are trying to play the wrong game there, if they expect to not get smashed by walking into a trap (which the 5 man at port thing is.. an ambush.. perfectly valid tactic given that the game doesnt provide mechanics for hiding behind stuff, etc).
I used to take out me pirate mc xebec and off and float around the frenchies trying to make traps, only to then have a blast as they scrambled to try to catch me while I hit n run the ones who got split up due to poor planning and wind angles. Even managed to sink one or two ships in enemy gank squads, 6 vs my xebec.
As for the economy.. yea.. as a pirate, it didnt take long to make 1.5 million dbs playing the markets.. not sure if that relates to the freetraders being economic gimps, or if its just because i exploited a niche while it was still unsaturated. (havent played in a few weeks, no doubt someone else took over the business heh)
I'd like to point out that like EvE online and its 0.0 space, the idea is that a ship shouldn't be off by itself in a pvp zone, and doing so is literally asking to get ganked (which can be fun if you are able to out maneuveur the gank squad and they end up just wasting their time). The idea is that if a zone you need to go in is in pvp mode.. hire an escort. The game's about fleet vs fleet for the most part (even if they are tiny fleets), soloist pvprs are trying to play the wrong game there, if they expect to not get smashed by walking into a trap (which the 5 man at port thing is.. an ambush.. perfectly valid tactic given that the game doesnt provide mechanics for hiding behind stuff, etc).
I used to take out me pirate mc xebec and off and float around the frenchies trying to make traps, only to then have a blast as they scrambled to try to catch me while I hit n run the ones who got split up due to poor planning and wind angles. Even managed to sink one or two ships in enemy gank squads, 6 vs my xebec.
As for the economy.. yea.. as a pirate, it didnt take long to make 1.5 million dbs playing the markets.. not sure if that relates to the freetraders being economic gimps, or if its just because i exploited a niche while it was still unsaturated. (havent played in a few weeks, no doubt someone else took over the business heh)
I'm not really talking about the random person who has no business being there. Whether it's the 30 second rule, the ability to fast travel into a port, sail out and join the gank, etc. While one should expect it given the games current design, I find that a flaw in the design.
And yes, the gankfests that are a fact of life in EVE is one of the reasons I believe the game is flawed. When it turns into gankfests being manipulated by the devs/gms, that takes things to an even more perverse level.
Ahh, I see that "blanced discussion" got just the expected audience with "if you get ganked, it is your fault" aka "no crying in red circle". It emphasizes nicely one of POTBS fundamental problems, naysayers really have no reason to come to terms with the gankers club. Sorry tough guys, you don't grow balls by playing a video game.
The discussion in this thread is pointless in my opinion simply because one side will identify ganking as an issues while the other will yell there is no such thing as ganking problem. The topic has been beaten to death on POTBS forums and the official line is that the game is "the art of gank". Really if ganking as reality of POTBS gameplay cannot be idnetified as an issues there is no point elaborating on other matters.
And, of course, it is exactly the same usual suspects who already posted exactly the same things on POTBS forums. Then again those players are not a problem, the problem are the players that left. In short this thread preaches to the converted. It was a nice try and a good idea though.
Have fun with your niche game, as Dracus said - it is just getting nichier and nichier.
Well I understand the frustration involved, etc. but the game is designed this way.. its meant for people who like that kind of play style.. yes, a type of pvp niche. Has nothing to do with epeening though. Shouldn't fallback to crass as a backup argument function, its not very becoming.
If you played eve, you understand my point - trying to fly through a 0.0 border gate with a hull full of zyd while all alone, then complaining that the game is dumb and should change because you got ganked by a gate camp squad is just silly.
You bought and subscribed to that kind of game.. if its not what you want in a game.. sure, fine.. but the game's not flawed for it, its your perception of what the game should deliver thats flawed.
Also, note that I said I purposely set out to get ganked often, because it was fun.. I am not a ganker, I am a gankee. I also am aware of what it is I was playing and why I was still playing it, without selfishly expecting it to change to suit my particular needs, something which the mmorpg crowd seems to be good at expecting. Might not be the game for you, but can you speak for the other couple hundred million gamers out there?
Well I understand the frustration involved, etc. but the game is designed this way.. its meant for people who like that kind of play style.. yes, a type of pvp niche. Has nothing to do with epeening though. Shouldn't fallback to crass as a backup argument function, its not very becoming.
If you played eve, you understand my point - trying to fly through a 0.0 border gate with a hull full of zyd while all alone, then complaining that the game is dumb and should change because you got ganked by a gate camp squad is just silly.
You bought and subscribed to that kind of game.. if its not what you want in a game.. sure, fine.. but the game's not flawed for it, its your perception of what the game should deliver thats flawed.
Also, note that I said I purposely set out to get ganked often, because it was fun.. I am not a ganker, I am a gankee. I also am aware of what it is I was playing and why I was still playing it, without selfishly expecting it to change to suit my particular needs, something which the mmorpg crowd seems to be good at expecting. Might not be the game for you, but can you speak for the other couple hundred million gamers out there?
Ahh yes, now we get to "this is a PvP game". It is not labeled as such, advertised as such, and the fact it has limited zoned PvP certainly doesn't make it a PvP game. Again, this has been dragged on over and over. But you do illustrate the point of the problem well - naysayers think that the game is poor PvP/PvE/Econ combo while the other side claims it is a PvP game.
In case you haven't noticed this is not EVE although I suspect you are among those who are searching for EVE Lite game. Makes it even more funny because the like minded individuals like to snipe at people for making game "WoW like" while it is perfectly reasonable to demand it to be "EVE like".
You see from my angle it is your perception that is flawed, matter of opinion though.
Actually my opinion of EvE is its too simplistic, and i quite dislike their real time based skill scheme.. i am looking forward to jumpgate:evolution for a more hardcore pvp mmorpg experience. I couldn't help notice your attempt at stabbing me with the WoW knife though.. thats pretty amusing. Considering I call WoW the newbie island of mmo's
As for potbs, it is advertised as a rvr pvp game *shrug*. And thats what it is.
[quote]
Illyian wrote,
Ahh, I see that "blanced discussion" got just the expected audience with "if you get ganked, it is your fault" aka "no crying in red circle". It emphasizes nicely one of POTBS fundamental problems, naysayers really have no reason to come to terms with the gankers club. Sorry tough guys, you don't grow balls by playing a video game.
[/quote]
I suppose one reason the responses are such is that it is the way it is.
Its RvR or Nation vs. Nation. If your expecting a pvp type game that matches up a perfect 1vs1 scenario everytime it is probably not the game for you.
Sometimes your ganked
Sometimes your the gankee
The rest of the times its some pretty good, unique fight.
It has nothing to do with 'balls'. I think it is a unique game that doesnt try to be just like 'wow'. It is a niche game, I happen to like this niche where there a danger aspect in it.
Palazious <The Vindicators> Darkfall
Palazious r40, rr45 SW War
Palazious 50 Pirate PoTBS
Palazious 35 Sorcerer Vanguard
Palazious 75 wizard EQ
Paladori 50 Champion LOTRO
Poppa Reaver bugged at rank15
I would suggest reading POTBS advert again as the game is labeled as mixed type with distinct "or" between PvE, PvP and econ.
And you might be unpleasantly surprised at what Jumpgate Evolution developers have in store for the game. They actually expressed admiration on how Blizzard runs WoW, the links are provided at subsection of JGE at this site.
Good luck with your hardcore gaming experience though, it might take awhile to find it.
Well, as I said before, enjoy your niche game and low population servers. And you are right, I am among majority who left the game although I was neither ganker or gankee.
I have to make a point on this. 1st I am no ganker and never had ever got involved with ganking players but I do love PvP areas that require thinking about how you will get through and the rewards for doing so. As I mentioned in my previous post I travel through red zones continously and only two times I got sloppy and got caught. Am I so smart that I avoid PvP in PvP zones? No. Its common sense and I get annoyed when I see people moaning about PotBS, EVE or any game because they lost their uber ship because they sailed into a port with 6 enemy ships blockading it.
Besides I think the OP already stated that there are plenty of threads on how to avoid PvP. I even started one a week ago. Why is it so hard to undock from a port and survey your area and the map. If you see too many enemy players redock! PotBS have a teleport function so if you don't have other ships in other ports and you get stuck in that one specific port then who is to blame?
BTW I am not pointing this advice at your, just picking up on your comments.
P.s. since last patch all ships that undock are within docking distance. I could be wrong but I believe this is correct.
This is fine if your a hard core pvp'er type however its a game that is supposed to support more then one kind of playstyle. I can give you an example of a guy I knew in beta that did not pick it up afterwards that defines a good half of the subscriptions that they had until after the trial periods ended etc. This guy loved ships and was very casual and wanted nothing to do with pvp (unlike me he did not even bother to fight back if "ganked"). He played for the ships and the economy he was "hardcore economy". He was escorted into a pvp zone and picked off as the weakest ship. He got split off and even though we were close we could not enter the battle he got sunk because he is not intersted in PVP. He had been waiting 1+ weeks to move his goods from red ports. He finally asked for help because he was logging in seeing the red, doing nothing and logging out after 1+ weeks of doing this he finally had to "brave the red zone" . He didn't bother with this game because its clearly a pvp game. However its not marketed or presented as only for PvP'ers. A LOt of pve'ers pick this up. However after a certain level your doomed to have to enter red zones (your capital city at level 4 ish if your doing the economy tutorial is the earliest example of PVE'er being forced into a red zone to complete a mission). Unlike most games that are not open pvp systems and RVR type systems where the bulk of PVE is found outside red zones, this games plops a great deal of the PVE content more then half square into areas which are doomed to turn red and if the server is busy enough STAY in a red zone for possibly weeks. NOw if you dont PvP and believe it or not there are people out there who were and possibly still are trying to play this game as a PVE only game what do you do with yourself if your mission storylines take you smack dab into the middle of one? There are two choices
a) go into the red zone
b) logout and wait for it to go away
its a very simplistic approach being taken "dont go into the red zone" but anyone who knows what is knows that these zones last at the least 3 days and at the other end can last WEEKS. How long should a person who is not interested in the PVP portion be denied access to content? How long should they subscribe for? Its not just a minor inconvenience as some people try to make it sound. If you login and have planed a night of entertainment with your pirate video game just how much fun is it to open up the map and find that your not allowed to do what you want to do and pay 15 bucks a month for it? The fact is they have tried to merge pvp with pve but in a disfunctional way. Its caused friction and is causing friction. The PVE'ers and economy only players are slowly being chased out of the game to leave the game for one type of playstyle alone which in my opinion is hardcore pvp. I say "hardcore" because just how many months is a pvp'er going to pay to use a skirmish system which is a free part of many offline PC games out there now where a server is provided as a link so you can have squirmishes all day everyday for like no money.. So we are down to one type of player. Knowing that this game is now a niche game. What your trying to do is tell people who are not interested in what your interested in to put up with it or avoid it and logout. Thats fine many many people have permanently left and this is why the servers are very very empty. So its a nice simplistic approach but in all honesty there is only one solution to NOT entering the red ring and it involves the cancel subscription button and no longer playing the game.
[
I actually didn't mind the melee combat. I think the issue is that players expect the avatar to react directly to their keystrokes. I understand that - but that is not how the AvCom works in PotBS.
See my comments here:
http://mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/161733
(end of post 2)
IMHO in order for PvP to work there has to be separation between players - that means travel time.
This was my concern pre-release and I said so with reasons (unfortunately the FLS archives appear to be down... or removed now?).
The world as it is works very well for a Solo PvE gamer (a-la GTA:SA) as I said in my comments linked above. But, as I also said it may not be the right size for PvP - which it turns out it isn't.
To make PvP work there needs to be a 'large world' that keeps people apart and makes them plan. If they want to operate in a certain area then they have to make a conscious choice to move to that area and base themselves there. This doesn't prevent guilds and "gank squads" dominating part of a map - but it does make it very difficult for them to dominate ALL of the map - which is what we are having happen in PotBS at the moment.
At a guess, the PotBS map needs to be 10-15 times 'bigger' at least.
The problem is that this would require a major re-write and re-design of many elements of the game.
The travel map is a very big issue here and may prove an ongoing long term problem in any potential problem fixes with this game.
I would still be interested to know how many Beta Testers never returned a bug report.
Too many people seem to regard a Beta Test as a "free game".
As I said before - to make PvP work the world has to be big enough to prevent "gank squads" being able to dominate the whole map.
The Red Circle idea actually makes this worse - by further reducing the area the "gank squads" have to patrol.
Yes, in PvP there will always be areas dominated by certain groups - but if the game world is big enough then they cannot possibly be everywhere at once. If they choose to operate in an area they must make a conscious choice to move to that area. This allows people to move elsewhere to avoid them.
Agreed. The whole design of the Pirate "nation" was bad from first concepts.
How would I have done it?
Becoming a Pirate would be a career development based on reputation and RPG from one of the national characters. This would also require a complete game re-design however...
Lots of issues here - and I agree with much of this.
The Free Trader should be the economic force having more plots than any other class.
The Naval Officer, as you say, should be naval and get paid from the Crown as his source of income.
The game should have had a 'naval ranking system' and 'player governed ports' in from the very beginning - but I am glad that it didn't actually because based on many of the other bad design choices I think FLS designers would probably have fluffed it?
On port battles - the "small world" factors in here too. If the world was larger then it would be possible to say that only those players with ships based at the port in contention and those nearby could contend - which would really open the whole thing up to all classes and levels of player. But again, lack of forethought in design.
I still think the AH in itself works very well and you do not need to know who you are dealing with specifically (which opens up a whole heap of 'exploits') for it to work. But yes, the economy was also badly planned as a whole due to many elements including NPC drops allowing players to destroy the economy by dumping goods on the market at less than what it costs for crafters to make them.
So, those are my thoughts based on what you posted - FWIW.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
I actually didn't mind the melee combat. I think the issue is that players expect the avatar to react directly to their keystrokes. I understand that - but that is not how the AvCom works in PotBS.
See my comments here:
http://mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/161733
(end of post 2)
IMHO in order for PvP to work there has to be separation between players - that means travel time.
This was my concern pre-release and I said so with reasons (unfortunately the FLS archives appear to be down... or removed now?).
The world as it is works very well for a Solo PvE gamer (a-la GTA:SA) as I said in my comments linked above. But, as I also said it may not be the right size for PvP - which it turns out it isn't.
To make PvP work there needs to be a 'large world' that keeps people apart and makes them plan. If they want to operate in a certain area then they have to make a conscious choice to move to that area and base themselves there. This doesn't prevent guilds and "gank squads" dominating part of a map - but it does make it very difficult for them to dominate ALL of the map - which is what we are having happen in PotBS at the moment.
At a guess, the PotBS map needs to be 10-15 times 'bigger' at least.
The problem is that this would require a major re-write and re-design of many elements of the game.
The travel map is a very big issue here and may prove an ongoing long term problem in any potential problem fixes with this game.
I would still be interested to know how many Beta Testers never returned a bug report.
Too many people seem to regard a Beta Test as a "free game".
As I said before - to make PvP work the world has to be big enough to prevent "gank squads" being able to dominate the whole map.
The Red Circle idea actually makes this worse - by further reducing the area the "gank squads" have to patrol.
Yes, in PvP there will always be areas dominated by certain groups - but if the game world is big enough then they cannot possibly be everywhere at once. If they choose to operate in an area they must make a conscious choice to move to that area. This allows people to move elsewhere to avoid them.
Agreed. The whole design of the Pirate "nation" was bad from first concepts.
How would I have done it?
Becoming a Pirate would be a career development based on reputation and RPG from one of the national characters. This would also require a complete game re-design however...
Lots of issues here - and I agree with much of this.
The Free Trader should be the economic force having more plots than any other class.
The Naval Officer, as you say, should be naval and get paid from the Crown as his source of income.
The game should have had a 'naval ranking system' and 'player governed ports' in from the very beginning - but I am glad that it didn't actually because based on many of the other bad design choices I think FLS designers would probably have fluffed it?
On port battles - the "small world" factors in here too. If the world was larger then it would be possible to say that only those players with ships based at the port in contention and those nearby could contend - which would really open the whole thing up to all classes and levels of player. But again, lack of forethought in design.
I still think the AH in itself works very well and you do not need to know who you are dealing with specifically (which opens up a whole heap of 'exploits') for it to work. But yes, the economy was also badly planned as a whole due to many elements including NPC drops allowing players to destroy the economy by dumping goods on the market at less than what it costs for crafters to make them.
So, those are my thoughts based on what you posted - FWIW.
Very well thought out and accurate responses Gyrus, and right on target.
This is fine if your a hard core pvp'er type however its a game that is supposed to support more then one kind of playstyle. I can give you an example of a guy I knew in beta that did not pick it up afterwards that defines a good half of the subscriptions that they had until after the trial periods ended etc. This guy loved ships and was very casual and wanted nothing to do with pvp (unlike me he did not even bother to fight back if "ganked"). He played for the ships and the economy he was "hardcore economy". He was escorted into a pvp zone and picked off as the weakest ship. He got split off and even though we were close we could not enter the battle he got sunk because he is not intersted in PVP. He had been waiting 1+ weeks to move his goods from red ports. He finally asked for help because he was logging in seeing the red, doing nothing and logging out after 1+ weeks of doing this he finally had to "brave the red zone" . He didn't bother with this game because its clearly a pvp game. However its not marketed or presented as only for PvP'ers. A LOt of pve'ers pick this up. However after a certain level your doomed to have to enter red zones (your capital city at level 4 ish if your doing the economy tutorial is the earliest example of PVE'er being forced into a red zone to complete a mission). Unlike most games that are not open pvp systems and RVR type systems where the bulk of PVE is found outside red zones, this games plops a great deal of the PVE content more then half square into areas which are doomed to turn red and if the server is busy enough STAY in a red zone for possibly weeks. NOw if you dont PvP and believe it or not there are people out there who were and possibly still are trying to play this game as a PVE only game what do you do with yourself if your mission storylines take you smack dab into the middle of one? There are two choices
a) go into the red zone
b) logout and wait for it to go away
its a very simplistic approach being taken "dont go into the red zone" but anyone who knows what is knows that these zones last at the least 3 days and at the other end can last WEEKS. How long should a person who is not interested in the PVP portion be denied access to content? How long should they subscribe for? Its not just a minor inconvenience as some people try to make it sound. If you login and have planed a night of entertainment with your pirate video game just how much fun is it to open up the map and find that your not allowed to do what you want to do and pay 15 bucks a month for it? The fact is they have tried to merge pvp with pve but in a disfunctional way. Its caused friction and is causing friction. The PVE'ers and economy only players are slowly being chased out of the game to leave the game for one type of playstyle alone which in my opinion is hardcore pvp. I say "hardcore" because just how many months is a pvp'er going to pay to use a skirmish system which is a free part of many offline PC games out there now where a server is provided as a link so you can have squirmishes all day everyday for like no money.. So we are down to one type of player. Knowing that this game is now a niche game. What your trying to do is tell people who are not interested in what your interested in to put up with it or avoid it and logout. Thats fine many many people have permanently left and this is why the servers are very very empty. So its a nice simplistic approach but in all honesty there is only one solution to NOT entering the red ring and it involves the cancel subscription button and no longer playing the game.
I can understand a lot of these points. However I have sailed through numerous red zones with cargo and have been fine. When you undock you can redock immediately and if the winds are favourable you should be able to get out easily enough. If he hates it that much then its understandable but half of me says that even if you are a hard core merchant / economist having the thrill of running a red zone with valuable goods is half the thrill. Just like mining in 0.0 space in EVE, knowing you are making a tonne of cash but you risk being spanked. *shrug* PotBS will find its fan base and its pretty specific on taste.
My wish list:
* Exploration!! I want to feel I can sail off and get lost and maybe find something that no one else will find. Its a ship game and its a shame not to have exploration as a major part. E.g. Pirates drop rare loot maps that lead to sunken treasure in the deep ocean.
* Large invasion fleets that are enemies of all nations. They could enter from the east side and cause havoc. Be interesting to see enemy factions join up and fight it off.
* Better graghics for towns and coastline on the open map. I think its a little average considering this day and age. However it may help the FPS
GANKING occurs simply because a level 60 character is not under any danger from a level 10 character. Its as simple as that. If a developer can create a game that isn't based on one character's uber equipment and uber powers, then there would be no ganking.
Take Medieval Total war for example. An army with the high ground can defeat a much larger army attacking uphill. Playing smart will let you win in Medieval Total War.
The basic of the basic architecture of all MMORPG's is the downfall, it is character centric. If a MMORPG weren't so character centric then even with unrestricted PvP then GANKING would be a think of the past.
GANKING occurs simply because a level 60 character is not under any danger from a level 10 character. Its as simple as that. If a developer can create a game that isn't based on one character's uber equipment and uber powers, then there would be no ganking.
Take Medieval Total war for example. An army with the high ground can defeat a much larger army attacking uphill. Playing smart will let you win in Medieval Total War.
The basic of the basic architecture of all MMORPG's is the downfall, it is character centric. If a MMORPG weren't so character centric then even with unrestricted PvP then GANKING would be a think of the past.
Yes, you are a hopeless idealist.
I remember having a talk in vent last night about this. I mentioned that the problem with FLS was that they didn't have any real foresight. Another chimed in stating "the problem is they developed a game solely on, look how cool this stuff is, rather than, how will people use this to their advantage."
Simply put, people will always look for an advantage, and there will always be those who will do "anything to win." I remember back in SWG, when a prominent member of our guild was caught exploiting. When asked to explain himself he stated "my actions have helped the guild and benefitted others, therefore its not an exploit." A lot of people have very little sense of ethics in their real lives, and even less in gaming.