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Why I Hate PvP and PK: And Why I Quit the Last MMO
Kevyne-Shandris
Member UncommonPosts: 2,077
This is your typical PvP event when you give PvP toddlers cheap PK scrolls to turn a city into a PK zone. First thing you'll notice is my little plant carrier isn't AFK. Second, he's working in the city and unloading to the warehouse. Third, he has no weapon (15lbs of weight a carrier and non PvP player in a city never needs).
See PK scrolls in this game offers turns anyone into PvP targets. Not even newbie cities are immuned -- no 0.5 space here, it's PvP without any safety net.
The PvP player, in his store bought anime clown suit and Phase 3 falchion skills, proceeded to kill not just my carrier -- everyone -- FROM BEHIND like the cowards they are!
Now read the typical commentary of such PvP brats, and why responsible games have to put them behind some fence like cattle, before they lose customers (Voyage Century lost my business immediately after this [over $450 worth they'll never see again])...
Comments
The only thing I can say is this: PVP has yet to be properly setup in any MMO thus far. What I mean by that is the given situations where PVP follows in other genres and titles tend to be due to mechanisms they setup for it. Whether it's an RTS or an FPS, these sorts of games work well under PVP, and pretty much make it fun as the majority of cases the AI in such games can only go so far as to provide challenge beyond simply buffing the bots with insane stats/ratings. In any case, for MMOs PVP is something far more volatile in its nature. First, you have people taking on other people in such a manner that is indiscriminant. Death simply comes too often, but more so in cases where it makes little sense (like just sitting in the middle of a crowd in town). Second, it's often one sided where the one who gets the first hit wins (always). With these two factors as they are with regard to PVP in MMOs it's little wonder why folks hate PVP in MMOs yet love it in other games (like TF2, COD4, SC, CnC3, DoW, and etc). But again, I'm emphasizing the fact it's a matter of proper implementation and not one of some magical genre barrier (as it is often espoused). Once developers get a grasp of the factors that makes PVP in other titles fun, they may be on the road to making it fun in MMOs too (Maybe...).
-- Brede
I agree. I play the FPS games, and heck you'll die in some w-e-i-r-d ways. Dying isn't even the issue, as that genre if you're breathing you're a target!
The issue with MMOs is, unlike FPS games, they have things like drops of your own goods and loss of XP or other penalties. A FPS game could not be about killing everything in your path if your character will face such punishment -- because it's difficult to obtain the uber weapons until you play through a FPS SP or with games like BF2/BF2142, play long enough to unlock the uber weapons that's needed to survive.
In FPS games armor isn't the main attraction, the weapons are (why they spend god zillion days talking and modding new weapons). In MMOs, armor is about all you need, because tanking is the norm for their version of a fighter. If you tank, you can survive an PvP assault from other tankers.
What makes PvP so ugly though is that in FPS games there's more balance (they spend forever trying to tweak the weapons fire rates, projectile drops and hit boxes). A buck private can, with skill, take down a high ranked player with 6+ months play time and the best weapons, with even a knife. The game rewards skill, no matter if it's a n00b or not. In MMOs, anyone with a credit card or can exploit the game for ingame gold and/or XP, can buy that armor that will protect them from that n00b. You can see them laugh at the n00b trying to dice them with their low level sword that maybe, takes out 1 or 2 HPs, even.
It wouldn't be tolerated in a FPS, and frankly I don't believe even in a MMO, when it's this out of balance.
It's also why I see the worst trash talkers in gaming in this genre. They, these n00bs (yes they are since they don't need any skill but a good layout for their 10001 spells to spam) know they can't be taken down by a new player. They're not vulnerable.
I remember in BF2142 and the RDX bunnies thought they'll have easy prey on a non-friendly fire server with little rules. Got tired of our team being pinned down by these bunnies, and my death ratio going up. So I unlocked the Sniper tree, and got access to their tools. I was a total and absolute n00b to blowing things up with explosives, but within a week, I even RDXed couple of the top 20 RDX hoppers in the game and even took their dogtags.
Dogtags in that game is the epic armor, as it takes utter skill to knife a guy with a shotgun or RDX in your face or at your feet!
That's skill, and that openess to that you can take even the top players down as a low level player, makes things so much more tolerable and enjoyable.
PvP/PK in MMOs aren't fun. Not only can you lose items that you worked for a long time to get, you can lose them because some brat (ALWAYS in better armor than you) can do so because there's no penalty on them. In BF2142, the penalty for any top gunner if they error in their skills, is some buck private getting their dogtag.
Now tell me, the odds of a level 1 player in MMOs killing a level 120 PvP tanker?
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
No community can expect to function in pure lawlessness. What would do you in real life if you were a target everytime you stepped out of your house to goto work? Probably move, or in this case unsub.
Killing a citizen in broad day light should have some consequences and criminals should have to think twice before doing what they please.
I'm a pvp'er, I love pvp, but the carebears have a point. There are 2 types of pvp'ers, those who like a challenge and take pleasure in their victories - sportsmen , and those who don't like any challenge and take pleasure in other peoples pain - griefers/criminals. Theres a difference.
solution: police
Since most games dont require you to build cities and all its infrastructure, its alraedy made when you sign up it should also be assumed that police would also already exist when you sign up. Otherwise how did that city or community ever come to being without some sort of protection right? Police should be in every mmo where pve and pvp butt heads. Its why Eve works.
But PvP, as it stands in MMOs, is pure lawlessness.
In that game Voyage Century, any city guild owner (as you can see in the text) could buy a very cheap scroll to make the whole city and even port a PK zone. In the game if you don't max out combat skills, you can't play PvP nor another PvP player can harm you. But with those scrolls, everyone is a target, with low level players with zero protection against level 100+ PvPers.
It was abused in newbie cities before, and the above shows how it's being abused yet again. The company doesn't care, and lets this free-for-all continue. About all what's left in that game are silver sellers on eBay, and folks willing to put in $$$ a month on upping their weapon and armor stats with item mall refiners -- and do the above when bored.
Devs wouldn't have police in the cities, because part of the MMO problem IS the Devs themselves. Either they love PvP or they don't, and the schizophrenic nature of MMOs with PvP/PK enabled shows it. Those that allow open PvP love the concept, and the result is their subscriptions or accounts are v-e-r-y small. But the devs lived their dream in bringing FPS content without the vulnerabilities that wimps prefer.
I just love how they claim PvE players are "carebears", because these PvPers don't have any consequences when they get their epics. No low level players or even beasts can kill them. They're tanked wimps.
Games that don't offer PvP are as rare as a MUD that doesn't enforce roleplay. They give these kids something to play with, because if they don't get their way they pout, meanwhile the PvE players go find yet another game, as PvP ruins THEIR gameplay (and you notice, these PvPers don't care if they ruin anyone but their gameplay [then they proceed crying about finally being more vulnerable?]).
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
The problem with pvp is not everyone likes pvp or some people want different things.
Lets put it this way if you did not like daoc pvp you'll not like any pvp.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
PvP is really no different than a FPS way of fighting. The problem in MMOs is when you get epics, as you no longer are vulnerable to anyone below your level. Which causes the abuses mentioned.
In FPS games you're always vulnerable. No weapon or vehicle makes you immuned.
If devs introduce vulnerabilities in PvP players (like what happens even in RL with Special Forces encountering cave dwellers), then PvP wouldn't be such a bother. Even Newbie can have a crack at some n-i-c-e armor, and not grinding 6 months for it!
PvP players will cry like a newborn baby if that was possible, but PvP will finally be balanced. Frankly, they need the same fear as n00bs, fearing n00b in the shadows running up and tagging them, then walking away with prized armor and weapon(s), and bragging rights of the most humiliating defeat that'll be spammed all over MMOland.
Vulnerabilites, guys, vulnerabilities.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
I love open-world PVP (and player-killing) in a game, when it's done right and it can be.
Games such as old-UO and EVE had the best open-world PVP; you can kill anyone anywhere (which adds realism) but if you do so unprovoked then you suffer consequences (which adds more realism) such as becoming a murderer in UO; making you kill-on-sight for anyone and unable to enter towns for fear of NPC guards attacking you.
Likewise in EVE if you attack someone in secure space you will be attacked by guards and your security rating will go down eventually making you unable to even travel through secure space. Additionally, your victims will be able to put a bounty on you that anyone can collect by killing you, so you have to be careful to avoid retribution.
I also don't like the concept of guild-war; it doesn't seem realistic that two members of opposing gangs can kill one another in towns under the nose of the police without repercussions.
Sorry, that got a bit preachy, but tbh the game you're talking about just looks like a really crap game.
So i basicly agree you, but with a little extension. PvP/PK in PvE MMOs arnt fun.. a MMORPG has to be made from groundup for pvp to feature it really. This doesnt mean that you cant put in some kind of PvE in such a PvP mmo, but it have to be different, with different kind of reward.. no extreme grinding for levels or powerful items.
And by the way, i am a pvp player, but not in pve mmorpgs.. i hate grinding, i hate imba items, and even more the time i lose which i should invest to get them.. Sorry, i really dont want to waste 6 month of my live just to can compete against other players, and more so if the pvp balance, and pvp core gameplay is like shit in the most mmorpgs anyway.. And i dont like to bash lowlevels, i really dont get any fun out of it... so nowaday i play more rts and fps, because of lack of good pvp mmos.
And i didnt played Voyage Century, of course.. item mall games are plain stupid for pvp.. invest money to win? What a shit is this?
Boo' F'ing Hoo. You knew this game had PvP. You knew something lame like this could happen. Now you're bitching about it? It's the people like you who ruined this entire genre before it barely got started. People thinking their sub money gives them the right to influence design doctrine, and spineless developers caving into them.
This is why all MMORPGs suck. They try to be everything to everyone and end up being nothing.
Hope you got your things together. Hope you are quite prepared to die. Looks like we're in for nasty weather. ... There's a bad moon on the rise.
And that is the problem of games like Voyage Century.. and a lot of other mmorpgs.. and mmorpgs suck because it looks like that most devs are to stupid to develop something good, well rounded, something which is actually fun for their clientel.. and of course one part is the doctrine of mixing everything together, to please everyone, and in the end to please noone. When you make a pve game, and can not add pvp funtional and fun into your game.. let it out. If you cant please every pve player in your pvp game.. let them out. Flock to a vision, make a game of it, and dont try to be everybodys darling. That is the problem.. and as long as enough ppl play their shit, and they can make a lot of money with such crap games, the devs will produce more of those shit. That simple is it.. so if you dont like a game for whatever reason, dont play it, or even start to play it, if it is predictable that it will not do properly and is a piece of shit. As long as we customers are like sheeps and run into any game, even if it is the greatest shit of earth, we will get more of it. And i have really enough of it.. i dont play such games anymore.
Yeah pvp in VCO is messed up.
Bad thing is a lot of people just afk at mob spawns for days on end and get ridiculous weapon skills and if you try to go there to work on your skills they end up ejecting you with a scroll (if your not in their guild).
OP you should try POTBS - while it does have pvp you do not have to participate in it unless you enter a clearly marked pvp zone. Plus the game play is a lot better than VCO. The potbs crafting system is really nice (much better than vco).
Bottom line is that many MMO players are morons. They'll put up with crap games, broken mechanics and sucky development decisions and by doing so, they validate every bad decision that game companies make.
I'll be honest, if I was a developer and running a game that had 10 million subscriptions and some truly god-awful game systems/mechanics, I wouldn't change a single one of them because, why bother? I have 10 million people paying me money already. I'll wait 'til the numbers start to go down then throw them a bone or two in order to suck them back in.
I wouldn't be surprised if, for example, Blizzard had the Wrath of the Lich King more or less finished and ready to go but are just delaying its release because their subscription numbers are still rising. From a business sense, they should wait 'til the playerbase starts to stagnate and THEN release the new content. It sounds a bit paranoid but well.. it's what I'd do.
Want more whine with that cheese?
I didn't ruin anything. But those idiots cost that game a paying customer. I believe in value for my money, not living on mommy and daddy's credit card, big boy.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
Is the PvP zone like VCO, everywhere but cities? And can crafters hunt items for their crafts? That's the sore point in VCO: if you skill up any related combat skill, you can be PvPed, even if all you want is to collect hides and bee stings!
Might give it a try after reformatting my array, as AO really is one messed up install (never seen a game that got paths so screwed up, thinking it was installed in the Windows directory and wanting to delete it!).
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
Hyperbole for the win...
No All MMORPG's don't suck it's the childish brats that make them suck as you say. Ever heard of the word honor? Back in the day griefers were hunted down and slaughtered like game and rightfully so. The problem is as society has taken a down turn MMO behavior has followed suit. Look I love PVP but other than a few titles like DAOC & GW for instance by and large it's been handled quite poorly.
Take some lawless brat who can play for hours accumulating high end PVE gear. Next put Him / Her in a guild with like minded dopes= bad news. I agree with a previous posters idea of NPC squads that actively hunt down these deviants. Towns where these types are KOS heck even bounties on their heads.
While Anarchy sounds cool in theory it can never be. Remember pure lawlessness = Chaos and action without consiquence is completely at odds with the concept of MMO's. Old school tactics that rely on honor mean nothing to this new generation of players hence stronger deterents are in order.
Dutchess Zarraa Voltayre
Reborn/Zero Sum/Ancient Legacy/Jagged Legion/Feared/Nuke & Pave.
What happens now, is what happened in that MUD I posted about earlier: AN ENTIRE CITY WAS HIJACKED BY ONE THIEF, because no one in the city gave a damn to kill the thief blocking the entrance, including the city guard.
An entire RL day passed before the prissies got a band together to kill her. I wasn't even level 30 (needed to PvP), and there was no way I could've taken her down being 30 levels higher, but if I was leveled I would -- as that was my city. For weeks they called our city the city of Cowards for it (even though the storyline claimed it was a warrior city!!).
For shame!
And that wss suppose to be a game that requires good city deeds to rise in rank, and even tests you on lore (you are interviewed by pages) and more to rise in the guild ranks!
There's little or no honor in gaming today. It's like a sinking ship, every man/woman for themself.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
Problem with PVP in mmorpgs is it's not skill based.... rather just play games like CS and TF2 cause they are about your skill and are fun.
In mmorpgs it's just buying your way to the top with items.
Now of course a level 70 vs a level 25 is not skill based at all. Ganking som1 lower than you is not skill based.
Now of course a level 70 vs a level 25 is not skill based at all. Ganking som1 lower than you is not skill based.
I dunno cause all the stats and that I find it to be more about luck with Crits more than anything and I hate crits... even on TF2 they just ruin the skill so just play on servers with them off.
Critical hits have been around since the origination of D&D.
Critical hits are meant to simulate an occasional 'lucky hit'. The concept is realised as the effect of hitting an artery, or finding a weak point, as opposed to a stab merely in the leg causing less damage than a stab in the achilles tendon. In games that this rule is present, higher hit points are often symbolic of the characters' own ability to avoid crippling or disabling damage, not of their actual fortitude.
Precisely.
A level 1 player who's smart and very good at fighting could, with luck, topple a high level player if it was truly a skill match. In games that balance well, there can be chinks in even the heaviest armor to exploit.
But with everyone tanked at the higher levels, no one but similiar level can kill them. Which is why those tankers, that give PvP a bad name, like to raid on lower level characters -- as it's shooting fish in a barrel event.
No class, no honor and zero skills.
I love PvP when two can duel and the underdog has a fighting chance. Each compensating for each weakness and exploiting the opponents weaknesses. Those are well worth to post the fight log, too. PvP players who love the challenge of a good fight, truly enjoy that type of gameplay.
Used to be players went to kill the dragon for the thrill of a good fight. Now they just want to team and cart off the drops. :sigh:
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
It seems the issue isnt about PvP, but on HAcking of the game. Its the integrity of the game thats in question, not the PvP. I suppose a fair estimate is WHAT is the Legal PvP like in the game. It may be that the PvP, as its supposed to be is fine and fun.
I had a great time in DAOC, GW, SWG with PvP...yea, perhaps early on in WoW too....I cannot say its a total wash
Torrential
Torrential: DAOC (Pendragon)
Awned: World of Warcraft (Lothar)
Torren: Warhammer Online (Praag)
Ok, he knew it, thats right. But when a game is broken from the very beginning, is that also his fault?And that is the problem of games like Voyage Century.. and a lot of other mmorpgs.. and mmorpgs suck because it looks like that most devs are to stupid to develop something good, well rounded, something which is actually fun for their clientel.. and of course one part is the doctrine of mixing everything together, to please everyone, and in the end to please noone. When you make a pve game, and can not add pvp funtional and fun into your game.. let it out. If you cant please every pve player in your pvp game.. let them out. Flock to a vision, make a game of it, and dont try to be everybodys darling. That is the problem.. and as long as enough ppl play their shit, and they can make a lot of money with such crap games, the devs will produce more of those shit. That simple is it.. so if you dont like a game for whatever reason, dont play it, or even start to play it, if it is predictable that it will not do properly and is a piece of shit. As long as we customers are like sheeps and run into any game, even if it is the greatest shit of earth, we will get more of it. And i have really enough of it.. i dont play such games anymore.
I agree, I also have quit all mmorpgs. Levels/character skills are the main thing crippling this industry.
For pvp, if the combat system is based on player skill more than time invested, everyone stands a chance at winning or at least escaping if they are attacked. FF also prevents ganking. Even if you are a crafter, you might be able to defend yourself against a crappy pvper. As for vets losing to a newb, the person that played longer should still win if they actually pay attention to their previous mistakes. There will still be god-like players, but it will be because they are good not because they have no social life. As far as PvE, this also works out great. Anyone can be useful in a dungeon of any level. You wouldn't be able to just have a high level run you through. Also, it doesn't split the community, everyone can play together. The current combat system just supports the retard AI for NPC's, so they seem harder than they are because it is only based on stats. It's pretty annoying to start a new game wtih your friends, but all of you are different levels so you can't really play together. I think this really gives casual players a chance, while still letting hardcore pve players do some really hard dungeons.
The game described in this thread, Voyage century? It has no pvp, it only has character vs character or gear vs gear, like most mmorpgs today.
Some might argue that little/no character advancement isn't RPG. RPG isn't about character advancement, D&D didn't have levels and shit because it was a good idea, it was because thats about all you can do short of having people fight. Skills need to enhance player skill, such as being able to swing a sword faster or more accurately, or shooting a bow more accurate(smaller CoF). A lot like M&B had, it had a pretty ideal combat system.
Gear needs to account for about 5% or less when it come to a fight. IMO, gear should have horizontal progression instead of vertical. Meaning all weapons and armor are more less equal, but not all are good for all situations. Given that there is still a little bit of vertical progression just because a rusty old gladius wouldn't be as good as a adamandite shiny new gladius. But, you could kill someone of any "level" with either.
Taken from the latest DF dev journal
"You ride up to a seemingly abandoned village and you get off your mount to explore it. As you enter through a gate, you hear a sound just as a mob jumps on you from above and connects with its weapon. You back up trying to mess up its range while you pull out your battleaxe. You rush the mob which circle-strafes you and you miss in your initial attacks. You manage to trade a couple of blows with it and it turns and runs. You pull out your bow and you notice it's doing the same as it's running off. You aim for its back and right as you release, your aim is thrown off by the explosion of a fireball which knocks you back and you miss. By the time you recover, the initial mob starts landing arrows on you and its friends are shooting spells while a couple are closing in to engage you with melee weapons. You run to your mount under fire and you try to get away but it gets killed from under you and you have to run away zigzagging because your character is in bad shape."
Don't know about any of you, but that sounds like some PvE I would really like. Just a note about mounts since in the above your mount died, "Anyone can have a mount in Darkfall, and you don't need to fulfill a special set of conditions, reach a certain level, save gold for months, win a contest, or preorder the game to own one."
These reasons are why so many want DF and have quit playing mmorpgs. DF isn't a pvp game, it is a virtual world, the pvp crowd have just been the first to embrace it because most pve players havn't realized that DF isn't like you normal no skill mmorpg. If you have all these things, then rulesets are the least of your worries. Here is the link to where I got the above quotes http://www.warcry.com/articles/view/devjournals/darkfalljournals/3070-Darkfall-Dev-Journal-24-Full-Freedom-Gameplay-and-Substance
Your mind is like a parachute, it's only useful when it's open.
Don't forget, you can use the block function on trolls.
Precisely.
A level 1 player who's smart and very good at fighting could, with luck, topple a high level player if it was truly a skill match. In games that balance well, there can be chinks in even the heaviest armor to exploit.
But with everyone tanked at the higher levels, no one but similiar level can kill them. Which is why those tankers, that give PvP a bad name, like to raid on lower level characters -- as it's shooting fish in a barrel event.
No class, no honor and zero skills.
I love PvP when two can duel and the underdog has a fighting chance. Each compensating for each weakness and exploiting the opponents weaknesses. Those are well worth to post the fight log, too. PvP players who love the challenge of a good fight, truly enjoy that type of gameplay.
Used to be players went to kill the dragon for the thrill of a good fight. Now they just want to team and cart off the drops. :sigh:
The day a level 1 can stand a fighting chance against a level 70-80 is the day I quit MMO's. There is no way in hell im gonna let a level 1 beat me who has put 3+ years into the game. Its called expierence and legacy.
If you get into an MMO at launch your chance of creating a legacy in the online world is greater. You think in a fantasy world you dont have Gods/Immortals/Heroes? If I train for 3 years your damn right I better be able to kill just about any1 anytime I feel like. Not saying ganking is right, but in a dog eat dog world, sometimes It is fun to wreak havoc on the peasants.
If being uber in a MMO is not your cup of tea..why play them at all? If your getting ganked and you are defenseless try these simple solutions to shake the bastard.
1. Dont Immedialey respawn on top of your body(this will make the ganker camp you)
2. Find a large obstacle to hide behind/stand on before you spawn and try to escape the area.
3. Announce in general chat the name and location of your ganker and som1 may come to aid you(being in a good guild will make this easier)
4.Logging or doing something afk for 10 minutes(this will make the ganker enter a state of boredom and he will move to a different location to feed on som1else)
Now of course these tips wont always prevent you from being ganked, but they increase your chances of not being. I also know that certain ganking tactics such as camping a certain NPC that you need to talk to or repeatedly killing a quest mob you need is down right dirty and the GM's should consider this a hindrance to your ability to progress through the game you pay for and have measures to warn/suspend players like this.
IMO open world ffa pvp is great but, it should be restricted to level ranges 1-10,11-20,21-30,etc.