While I wouldn't go so far as to describe any mmo in and of itself as hard, I would pretty much insist that there are highly varying levels of difficulty between games. The problem is partially that mmo's have so many varieties of gameplay within them that it's not really fair to strictly say that one is harder than another.
However, I can tell you why I think wow and its various clones are easy. It's because all but the newest, most difficult challenges put into the game (new instances requiring large raids, that kind of thing) can be overcome most of the time with mediocre players in your party.
The thing about WoW is that if I'm in a party with a tank, or a healer, or DD, or whatever who's not very good at his job, more often than not, the party is only slowed a bit because of it. If the other players are decently skilled at their jobs, most challenges are still relatively easily overcome.
I'm going to use FFXI as a contrast because although I've played several MMO's for a very long time, this is one that I am extremely familiar the systems in place so I feel I can best illustrate what hard vs. easy means to me.
In FFXI, if you have a tank (for example) who isn't very good at his job, the entire party constantly has to drop everything they're doing and run for their lives. The distance you will have to run is significantly greater, it is likely at least one if not more of your party members will die while running (remember there is a death penalty both in XP and time-sink after being rezzed), and nobody will be able to save you. Also, depending on where you are at that moment, you may in fact risk killing every other party between you and the zone barrier (god I hate the jungle, though I've heard that they've changed this to stop the mob training, i.e. making the game easier). Now there are circumstances where the party can make up for a weak team member just like in WoW, but in most cases this player has to be an absolute GOD (very rare), or there has to be an unusual/highly creative job make-up spread across the team to deal with the eventuality...and the efficiency of the team instead of being mildly hampered by a weak player is SEVERELY impeded.
Then there's the fact that the way the various jobs interact changes significantly depending on a multitude of things: The current level of each party member, where they are fighting, what subjobs everyone has equipped, what type of weapon each person is using, and what specific mob the party is currently fighting to name only a few...what time of day it is in the world can even impact these things.
WoW tends to have required variety in combat only when going against some bosses that follow a basic script to be handled in a predefined way that any monkey can learn to do.
As a mage or a rogue in WoW, if I pull too much hate and it's one of the general mobs in the instance, most of the time I can take it down myself and I'll just need some extra healing. In FFXI if I'm a damage dealing class and I pull too much hate *no matter what mob the party is fighting*, everybody panics a little. It doesn't mean we won't get control back, but it does mean there is now a decent chance the party will now have to abandon post, or wipe. This doesn't only happen on bosses...it happens on bunny rabbits...it happens on crabs...it happens on any mob that requires a party to take down.
Having a situation like this means a variety of things:
Firstly, your team is only as good as its weakest player...period...there is no good way to compensate for this, there are even risks with a PL.
Secondly, it is not only the job of the players involved to fix the situation when control of a mob is lost. immediately every player must react attentively and quickly, or the entire party has to run for their lives or wipe...the entire party *must* be good at scrambling and adapting to changes in the immediate situation or the entire party has to run for their lives or wipe...the thing is EVERY party member has to be able to do this, not just most of them, or a few of them, or you quite literally end up standing around in game for hours waiting to get everybody together again in order to kill something.
Now when you have these qualities in a WoW party, you get a really badass party, but it's not required in order to advance. A decent party in FFXI requires significantly more coordination, group timing, communication, and attention than a decent party in WoW (I'm not talking about amazing groups, just a decent PuG that gets you through the night). Because the costs involved for not having a decent party in FFXI are significantly higher because having to run for your life or wipe costs a LOT more in terms of time, planning, and regrouping than it does in WoW.
The point is that having this level of complexity/difficulty forces parties to be significantly less tolerant of mediocre players. This doesn't mean they act like jerks necessarily (although some always do), it means that, most of the time, they are in fact more helpful in getting their team members better at playing because they absolutely must if they want to get anywhere in the game (remember FFXI is an extremely long grind, the reason the game works so well is because level capping isn't the only interesting thing there is to do, unlike WoW).
Party efficiency doesn't have even remotely the same level of significant impact in a game like WoW, party efficiency in a grind like FFXI is absolutely essential, and on top of that the method needed to achieve efficiency can change drastically by the swapping of a single party member, or weapon. Which means you must play well, if you do not play well, your entire team either kicks you, or wastes hours of time getting nowhere fast.
Most of the time in WoW simply being level 70 is enough to get you through whatever you need to get through. Being at the level cap in FFXI won't even stop you from getting killed just by running through about 1/3 of the zones in the game.
WoW is easy. EQ is easy. EQ2 is easy. I thought EVE was easy. DAoC is easy. Every MMO I've played has been easy. Some of these games have more depth, but certainly they are all easy to master. There is a simple concept to MMOs. Kill. Get XP. Get money. Try not to die. Name one MMO where those aren't the goals, and maybe its hard. You get the person or NPC you're fighting to die before you. That might mean you need to get more help. It may mean you can do it on your own. People are only fooling themselves who think the MMO they play is hard. Nah, MMOs are childsplay, but they are FUN.
Until they come out with MMOs where you have to formulate theories on nuclear energy, or solve calculus problems, or take about a car engine and figure out how to put it back together MMOs are not hard. They are easy!
You're not making any sense. We're talking about comparative difficulty between games, you're not.
if you're suggesting that every aspect of every MMO is exactly the same in regards to difficulty because you can summarize them all under an extraordinarily generalized content label then I feel I must point out to you that this post doesn't make you smart, it doesn't make you special, and your comment here is completely irrelevant and specious...I don't care if you were kidding, you're not clever for this post.
Now then, if you are in fact saying that playing any of these games is easy and they pose no challenge, then how come there are so many shitty pullers, tanks, off-tanks, healers, damage dealers, team leaders, guilds and players out there in the mmo world?
Ppl calling WoW easy are doing it because they are sick of dealing with players who don't do their jobs well and still get rewarded for it. You don't have to be any good at the game to advance. The bottom level required in order to pass in WoW and its clones is significantly lower than in several other games. I'd like there to be fewer players in my guild at level cap who aren't completely incompetent morons...but you don't have to develop a decent playskill to advance in WoW. All the guild needs is a handful of good players and a bunch of mediocre ones and a copy of the script to pass around and any instance can be taken down.
Does this situation change much from MMO to MMO, no, not really, they are all similar in a variety of manners, but there's no way the guy who's drooling into his keyboard and initially tried to "click on a button on the hotbar" by tapping it with his fingernail should be at level 70...AND STILL TRYING TO CLICK ON THE HOTBAR WITH HIS FINGER.
I hear a lot of people say that WoW is easy and i don't full understand what they mean...
Do they mean that WoW is easy to learn? In which case i would like to know which game is hard to learn?
Do they mean that it is easy to level up? Again i would like to know about a game that is hard to level up.
Or do they simply mean that it is an accessible game and interface and in fact mean it as a compliment?
Generally they mean two things that are not actually related (one of which I would argue is a mis=use of the word "easy"):
1) You go up in levels quicker than many other games. I do not consider this easy, but many people espeically old timer EQ-type people think it is. On the various boards here you can see many people saying games are way to easy because they got to some level in some amount of time.
Personally I think this part is just silly. But you will never get anyone who uses it to admit that. And to some degree WoW itself uses this idea. Just look at the time constraints on raids etc.
2a) WoW has a very simple combat model. This is true of EQ as well and since WoW is a copy of EQ that is not surprising. The entier game is a very simple equation of armor, staight up % damage mitigation + healing versus damage. The healing itself is extremely simple consistong mostly of only Heal over time or straight up static numbers. It is a very simple equation really.
A quick examination of CoX and Guild Wars makes it quite obvious how simple and limiting the WoW game mechanics are. Guild Wars have far more varied and deep healing mechanics and far far superior counter system. CoX has much more options for defense and mititagation and offers a more intricate way of doing crowd control. Just the addition of Magnitude on mezzes/stuns make CoX CC much more interesting.
2b) Also WoW for the most part is mapped out very explicitly. You go from zone 1to zone 2a or 2b to zone 3a or 3b etc. The instances you goto are limited to abotu 2 or 3 per level tier and for the most are very well known quote quickly.
Originally posted by VultureSkull Originally posted by Ascension08 Rofl, first off you're not making the same points here. You have two different ones that you're trying to mix into one. Point 1) You don't think WoW is easy Point 2) You think Wow is like every other MMO Well for Point 2, maybe that's why WoW is part of the MMO market? Because they're all similar? Wow who woulda thunk it. No one denies WoW is like other MMOs, in fact, most people argue new MMOs are all too similar to WoW. Now, for Point 1, you'll find WoW to be a casual's paradise, and since I assume that's what you are, enjoy your game. It's hard for you. Don't try to accuse the hardcores and/or older players who used to play of being wrong just because Blizz took most of the older challenges out to cater to YOU. There's two different mindsets here, deal with it.
If you read all the posts then you will understand what i am saying. I hear a lot of peeps saying oh WoW is easy etc. I am saying that it is just as hard or as easy as any other MMO out there period. You got to look at what hard means here, 1) Hard to understand 2) Hard to execute 3)Hard to level up. I personally don't find Wow or any other MMO hard with regards to the first two points. And possible not hard to level up either, it just a matter of time. Lol at your post, how do you ascertain that i am not an older player. And i am not accusing anybody of anything. My advice to you is to read through and understand posts before coming on here and making a fool of yourself by commenting on what you preceive is being talked about when infact you have no idea!
I think by hard, in this case means depth or alot of options that can be tough to grasp for a new player of MMO's(Overwhelming sensation) Where do I go now ???..WoW doesn't really have that much surprises when it comes to this..as in you do not have many options to choose from as a new player
Look at the crafting in EQ2, even thou they made it easier than the original crafting system, it's still "harder" to understand and grasp than WoW's crafting system..It's also a tad bit more realistic than WoW's crafting...
But all in all..I agree with most of what you say here,,Easy or Hard what is that "really"...
For a MMO to be hard it need's better AI in the long run..
But ALAS..It can be "hard" to overcome a harch death penaly, aspecially if you play careless, and without death penalty people tend to be more careless
WoW is easy. EQ is easy. EQ2 is easy. I thought EVE was easy. DAoC is easy. Every MMO I've played has been easy. Some of these games have more depth, but certainly they are all easy to master. There is a simple concept to MMOs. Kill. Get XP. Get money. Try not to die. Name one MMO where those aren't the goals, and maybe its hard. You get the person or NPC you're fighting to die before you. That might mean you need to get more help. It may mean you can do it on your own. People are only fooling themselves who think the MMO they play is hard. Nah, MMOs are childsplay, but they are FUN.
Until they come out with MMOs where you have to formulate theories on nuclear energy, or solve calculus problems, or take about a car engine and figure out how to put it back together MMOs are not hard. They are easy!
You're not making any sense. We're talking about comparative difficulty between games, you're not.
if you're suggesting that every aspect of every MMO is exactly the same in regards to difficulty because you can summarize them all under an extraordinarily generalized content label then I feel I must point out to you that this post doesn't make you smart, it doesn't make you special, and your comment here is completely irrelevant and specious...I don't care if you were kidding, you're not clever for this post.
Now then, if you are in fact saying that playing any of these games is easy and they pose no challenge, then how come there are so many shitty pullers, tanks, off-tanks, healers, damage dealers, team leaders, guilds and players out there in the mmo world?
Ppl calling WoW easy are doing it because they are sick of dealing with players who don't do their jobs well and still get rewarded for it. You don't have to be any good at the game to advance. The bottom level required in order to pass in WoW and its clones is significantly lower than in several other games. I'd like there to be fewer players in my guild at level cap who aren't completely incompetent morons...but you don't have to develop a decent playskill to advance in WoW. All the guild needs is a handful of good players and a bunch of mediocre ones and a copy of the script to pass around and any instance can be taken down.
Does this situation change much from MMO to MMO, no, not really, they are all similar in a variety of manners, but there's no way the guy who's drooling into his keyboard and initially tried to "click on a button on the hotbar" by tapping it with his fingernail should be at level 70...AND STILL TRYING TO CLICK ON THE HOTBAR WITH HIS FINGER.
Let me answer a few of your points.
People are bad players, because of a few reasons. One reason may be they are new to the genre. Once you get the hang of tanking, or pulling, or anything it becomes second nature. Secondly, its unfortunate, but a lot of people in this world are really, really not very bright. I've seen 8 year olds play EQ. If they can do it, trust me it isn't too hard. I met plenty of morons in EQ and DAoC.
There are certainly good players and bad players, which is what you are eluding to. You want recieve any arguments from me.
These games do pose a challenge. Just a very small one. Once you have the AI figured out, guess what? It doesn't change. You've mastered it, and you can post it on the internet, so every group leader or guild leader can tell you what to do. And people follow those directions.
As for you saying I'm not special or smart. I beg to differ. God made me, so I'm special.
On a serious note, you do realize people do instanced dungeons in WoW, and its not all about solo play, don't you? Granted, one can very well get to 70 without doing it. There is PvP in WoW, which may not be the best implentation, but is certainly better than going against the same AI hours on end. There are more paths in WoW than the "easy" solo route straight to 70. Like most games, WoW is what you make it.
WoW is easy. EQ is easy. EQ2 is easy. I thought EVE was easy. DAoC is easy. Every MMO I've played has been easy. Some of these games have more depth, but certainly they are all easy to master. There is a simple concept to MMOs. Kill. Get XP. Get money. Try not to die. Name one MMO where those aren't the goals, and maybe its hard. You get the person or NPC you're fighting to die before you. That might mean you need to get more help. It may mean you can do it on your own. People are only fooling themselves who think the MMO they play is hard. Nah, MMOs are childsplay, but they are FUN.
Until they come out with MMOs where you have to formulate theories on nuclear energy, or solve calculus problems, or take about a car engine and figure out how to put it back together MMOs are not hard. They are easy!
You're not making any sense. We're talking about comparative difficulty between games, you're not.
if you're suggesting that every aspect of every MMO is exactly the same in regards to difficulty because you can summarize them all under an extraordinarily generalized content label then I feel I must point out to you that this post doesn't make you smart, it doesn't make you special, and your comment here is completely irrelevant and specious...I don't care if you were kidding, you're not clever for this post.
Now then, if you are in fact saying that playing any of these games is easy and they pose no challenge, then how come there are so many shitty pullers, tanks, off-tanks, healers, damage dealers, team leaders, guilds and players out there in the mmo world?
Ppl calling WoW easy are doing it because they are sick of dealing with players who don't do their jobs well and still get rewarded for it. You don't have to be any good at the game to advance. The bottom level required in order to pass in WoW and its clones is significantly lower than in several other games. I'd like there to be fewer players in my guild at level cap who aren't completely incompetent morons...but you don't have to develop a decent playskill to advance in WoW. All the guild needs is a handful of good players and a bunch of mediocre ones and a copy of the script to pass around and any instance can be taken down.
Does this situation change much from MMO to MMO, no, not really, they are all similar in a variety of manners, but there's no way the guy who's drooling into his keyboard and initially tried to "click on a button on the hotbar" by tapping it with his fingernail should be at level 70...AND STILL TRYING TO CLICK ON THE HOTBAR WITH HIS FINGER.
Why do you keep using the word "job" for a game? Maybe you take these things a bit too seriously. Most people play to have fun, not to number crunch or whine because they have to recover from a wipe or point fingers at the supposed "weak" players. I've grouped with control freaks like you and I'll take a group that is chaotic and fun over one that is so controlled that it's an agonizing bore to even play.
This is one of the reasons why I find WoW superior to any other MMO on the market. It and many of it's players are here to have fun. Not to work, not to criticize players who make mistakes, not to grind endless hours just to get one level. There's a fine line between challenging combat and combat that forces you to play specifically as the developers insist it be played out, allowing absolutely no freedom for the players. These games inevitably get relegated to niche status in the industry, because not many people will put up with that kind of crap. That kind of gameplay isn't hard, it just requires you to play simon says and when the blue light goes off, press x button and if you make a mistake and press y then the group wipes and you get labeled as a mediocre player, puhlease.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Why do you keep using the word "job" for a game? Maybe you take these things a bit too seriously. Most people play to have fun, not to number crunch or whine because they have to recover from a wipe or point fingers at the supposed "weak" players. I've grouped with control freaks like you and I'll take a group that is chaotic and fun over one that is so controlled that it's an agonizing bore to even play. This is one of the reasons why I find WoW superior to any other MMO on the market. It and many of it's players are here to have fun. Not to work, not to criticize players who make mistakes, not to grind endless hours just to get one level. There's a fine line between challenging combat and combat that forces you to play specifically as the developers insist it be played out, allowing absolutely no freedom for the players. These games inevitably get relegated to niche status in the industry, because not many people will put up with that kind of crap. That kind of gameplay isn't hard, it just requires you to play simon says and when the blue light goes off, press x button and if you make a mistake and press y then the group wipes and you get labeled as a mediocre player, puhlease.
I don't number crunch, as a matter of fact I play a very loose game with my guilds, always have, I'm more interested in having fun than caring about leveling (one of the reasons I don't care for WoW, it pretty much only rewards leveling.)
The reason I use the word "job" is because it's an accurate term, it's a position that is required to be fulfilled in a party. A Tank is a certain player's, job. If you disagree you must not get very far in party based games. I have no problem with weak players, I love to help out and assist anyway I can, and I'm grateful for company.
But when the question of a game's difficulty comes into play, the game that allows anybody to play any half-assed way they want and still get by, is *not* as difficult of a game (which you may remember was the point of this conversation). The game that requires changing your playing styles and adapting creatively to various situations is significantly more difficult, and a LOT more fun.
"These games inevitably get relegated to niche status in the industry, because not many people will put up with that kind of crap. That kind of gameplay isn't hard, it just requires you to play simon says and when the blue light goes off, press x button and if you make a mistake and press y then the group wipes and you get labeled as a mediocre player, puhlease."
You're very confused...you think I'm complaining about people playing and not following a script, when in fact what I'm saying is that WoW and it's clones expect you to follow a script, and that in fact is what makes them easier games. "When the blue light goes off, press x button..." is EXACTLY what WoW game play is like, this is why the game isn;t challenging.
Playing a tank well means you DON'T follow some scripted gameplay (unless your script is really long and complicated). Playing a damage dealer well means you DON'T follow some scripted gameplay. Same goes for all other party jobs.
Players in WoW can get away with following a script over and over again and having the slack picked up by the two good players in the party. This in effect means that WoW is an easier game to play. Other games will get your party crucified for poor players, this means the game is harder.
How many years did ppl insist on having two to three people pull the dragons out of the egg-room in UBRS so they didn't leroy the place? How many people until the expansion decided to fight Onyxia in a different manner than the typically scripted one? How many people insist on standing in very specific places and running mods to let them know they are the bomb? WoW's PvE gameplay can be done by any player regardless of how good they are so long as they are the right level and follow the scripted actions...and the party-dynamic, in terms of class content, changes virtually nothing...in games that are more challenging, the entire combat style has to be adapted to suit the classes in the party (and the play style based on party makeup changes DRASTICALLY), the players don't necessarily know what the mob's going to do at any given moment, and there aren't safe places to stand.
That and it's significantly harder for the team to compensate for a poor player.
A bad healer can be covered in most cases with a good one, a bad tank can be covered in most cases with a good off-tank, or even with good DD and healers who recognize they have to hold off in order to avoid pulling. Doing this sort of balancing should be expected, but it's often NOT necessary in WoW. 2-3 players can almost always pull the weight of an entire party, and as a result, a LOT of players mindlessly stumble through the whole game thinking they know what they're doing.
The game is *easier* than those that don't have so much leeway. Less thinking + less attentiveness + less communication + lower reflexes necessary == easier, I'm not exactly sure how else to define a game's difficulty, but apparently you do it differently, so I'd like to hear from you what makes one game harder than another.
To put it a different way, in some other games I can think of, you wouldn't necessarily know when or if Ony was going to lift off from the ground or not...so you have to be creative and adaptable.
My point is the game doesn't *encourage* getting better at playing, in fact creative solutions are only necessary if you''ve decided to do something patently against the design of the game (e.g. 3-manning UBRS naked). So you wind up with a bunch of not very good players at the top. Whether or not that bothers you or me is beside the point, the point is that the game is therefore easier than others...you just follow the script.
In regards to having decent players or not and my frustration level, I don't expect the players in any group I play with to be incredible, but I'm embarrassed when I'm in a PuG with one other guild member and that guild member can't hold his weight at all with the rest of the group trying to accomplish a specific goal and everyone else doing quite well together.
I don't think everyone should play at my or anyone elses specific level, I have no problem with different styles of play. I just ask that the bar for average be better than the mage wiping the group 7 times in a row...yet for some reason I keep running into level 70 mages that do just that...regularly. I expect the damage dealer to figure out by the twelfth time he's pulled the hate off the tank that he should lighten up a bit, or at least not jump all over the rest of the party when they ask him to ease off.
There is a prevalent attitude in WoW of "HOW DARE YOU TELL ME HOW TO PLAY?!?!??? I'M A LEVEL 70!!!!!! I KNOW WHAT I'M DOING!!" that's just pathetic, because anybody can get to level 70 in a week and a half without even trying.
I'm not a control freak in the slightest, it's just that my idea of fun isn't trying to get 5 feet in an instance for 6 hours because one person consistently fails at life...I expect wipes, I expect failure, and I actually insist on personally wiping every guild party I am in at least once by trying to pull the entire instance because I think it's hilarious to do...trust me sheer chaos is usually what comes from my groups, and it's a riot, but the fact that I can even pull an entire room and get the mobs all back to the group more often than not without dying is another indicator that maybe WoW is a little *easier* than others...especially considering I can do this without playing a hunter.
But when the group is seriously involved in a specific project, for a specific goal, I also expect somebody at the level cap to have enough experience to be able to adapt or try new things when something they do over and over again consistently fails...and many in WoW can't do that. This is why WoW is *easier* than several other MMO's, even when the player isn't adapting well, half the time you can still survive and make it through. In the *harder* MMO's you can't, everybody actually has know the basics of how their "job"(if you'd prefer a different term for party combat positions, please feel free to substitue something else here, but you're arguing semantics and it's completely specious) works.
I don't care about damage meters, I don't care about winning, I'm fighting internet monsters for internet pants, but at the same time, I do occasionally need my keys/parts/other things in order to experience the rest of the game, and would rather not spend 3 weeks trying to get them when all I have to do is kill a handful of level 71 mobs.
I stand by my point, any game where a player who attempts to click on his hotbar by hitting his monitor with his finger can hit the level cap is simply going to be easier by any standard whatsoever than one that requires you to learn how to play.
2a) WoW has a very simple combat model. This is true of EQ as well and since WoW is a copy of EQ that is not surprising. The entier game is a very simple equation of armor, staight up % damage mitigation + healing versus damage. The healing itself is extremely simple consistong mostly of only Heal over time or straight up static numbers. It is a very simple equation really.
Apparently you've never used WoW Web Stats. I don't think anyone who has actually seen the number of things going on literally at the exact same moment in time could make this statement.
Take one of my recent trips thru Kara for instance. Using WoW Web stats you can see exactly all what is going on in the entire raid. There were literally hundreds of different types of attacks. There were 52 different types of heals applied during the run. There were hundreds of different buffs and debuffs applied both by the members of the raid and the mobs that were fought. A Very simple equation huh? That's a completely ridiculous statement. Don't believe me, go view some instance runs on WoW Web stats yourself. Dig down deep into the raid and don't just look at the first page. Look at the abilities used. Browse the log file and use the filter option to filter out the information. Look at the hit/miss/crit percentages for just about every type of skill and their average damage amount, min and max amounts. Every single thing in that log is effected by things such as armor, resistances, resilience, hit chance, crit chance etc. The sheer volume of complex calculations to determine all that goes on in a fraction of a second are astounding. Here's a couple seconds from the log file from a recent Moroes attempt:
Moroes's Swing hits Stinkywinky for 2570 Physical damage (248 blocked)
That's what happened in a couple seconds and this fight was approximately 3 and half minutes long. And remember that each and every one of those things are only the RESULTS of what happened, none of the actual complex calculations required to actually come up with any of that stuff is shown. You think this is a very simple combat model. Well I disagree.
2a) WoW has a very simple combat model. This is true of EQ as well and since WoW is a copy of EQ that is not surprising. The entier game is a very simple equation of armor, staight up % damage mitigation + healing versus damage. The healing itself is extremely simple consistong mostly of only Heal over time or straight up static numbers. It is a very simple equation really.
Apparently you've never used WoW Web Stats. I don't think anyone who has actually seen the number of things going on literally at the exact same moment in time could make this statement.
Take one of my recent trips thru Kara for instance. Using WoW Web stats you can see exactly all what is going on in the entire raid. There were literally hundreds of different types of attacks. There were 52 different types of heals applied during the run. There were hundreds of different buffs and debuffs applied both by the members of the raid and the mobs that were fought. A Very simple equation huh? That's a completely ridiculous statement. Don't believe me, go view some instance runs on WoW Web stats yourself. Dig down deep into the raid and don't just look at the first page. Look at the abilities used. Browse the log file and use the filter option to filter out the information. Look at the hit/miss/crit percentages for just about every type of skills and their average damage amount, min and max amounts. Every single thing in that log is effected by things such as armor, resistances, resilience, hit chance, crit chance etc. The sheer volume of complex calculations to determine all that goes on in a fraction of a second are astounding. Here's a couple seconds from the log file from a recent Moroes attempt:
That's what happened in a couple seconds and this fight was approximately 3 and half minutes long. And remember that each and every one of those things are only the RESULTS of what happened, none of the actual complex calculations required to actually come up with any of that stuff is shown. You think this is a very simple combat model. Well I disagree.
So what? The same thing can happen in CoX except that there are 3 other ways to add defense on and the debuffs etc have extra considerations.
If you think that is complex then CoX is 4 times as complex when you take in Magnitudes and opooising mez resistance and mex protection, the relationship between Avoidance, % mitigation, and regeration. Then add in the fact that most buffs and debuffs can stack unlike WoW.
The fact is WoW has a limited palette. Just because you think WoW's stuff is complex does not it is COMPARATIVELY complex.
The designers of WoW keep their palette intentionally limited. But anyone who has played either Guild Wars or CoX and has a decent understanding of the underlying mechanics finds it obvious that WoW's system is more simple.
It is a common mistake to believe that simple is easy. This is entirely wrong. Simple is often quite hard. But this is what people say.
However to me WoW is quite simple, there are often many things going on, but acutally understanding the effects is quite easy. Compared to the very learned debates I have seen on the CoX boards it seriously pales in comparison and is in fact quite easy to nail down exactly what is happening and which things are effective or nto effective.
If you do not believe me then goto the CoX boards and read the various guides on defense that Arcanaville has written. The mathematical modeling of WoW is much much simpler than what Arcanaville has done to try to mathematically compare just the defenses of particular sets. When you consider the math you would go through to evaluate the performance of a Warrior and then consider what Arcanaville has done it should be quite obvious. I have read and understood the many comparisons between Warrior tanking and Druid tanking in WoW and it is quite simple as far as I am concerned, there are only a few consideration and they are easily modeled.
Oh yes, magnitude is so complex. So now you have to use your hold power twice instead of once to overcome someone's defenses, really complex, really in depth combat there. CoH is one of the simplest games out there and you have the gall to call it more complex than WoW? Wow.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
I played WoW for just over a year from launch. I found it very fun, and easy. Compared to the games I was used to the biggest challenge was presented by the idiocy of some of my fellow players, not the content (though fun). Sorry mate, just the truth from my WoW experience.
Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Give a fish a man and he will eat for a month!
WoW is intentionally designed to be simple to play. That doesn't mean it isn't hard to master.
Almost any adult of average intelligence or above can get to max level. They can also complete normal mode instances throughout the game. However, from then on things start getting a lot more complex.
You can have 2 people with the same gear and spec, and yet one of them can output twice as much DPS as the other one, due to having a better idea of what skills to use and when.
Some skills take knowledge and ability to think on your feet to master - for example, many hunters are endgame are unable to reliably hold a mob in a trap for a minute or more. But the good ones can.
Someone mentioned earlier that in WoW a single mistake doesn't matter much. At endgame it most certainly does. If your rogue pulls aggro from one of the nastier non-boss mobs in a heroic, he will die in one or two blows, no matter how good your healer is.
Some fights require co-ordination between an entire team of 10 people. Someone above quoted a combat log from Moroes. This is only the second 10 man encounter at the current wow endgame, but even here, the party need to use cc and off-tanking to handle 5 mobs simultaneously. Any mistake in dealing with any of these mobs could easily lead to dead healers followed by a wipe.
Or to take another example - consider Aran. This is the 6th 10 man boss, and basically comes down to "can every member of your raid respond accurately to every one of Aran's special attacks for a period of 5 minutes". One out of 10 party members doing the wrong thing can easily cause a wipe (particularly for groups that don't outgear the encounter).
Unlike in the original vanilla WoW, most encounters in the Burning Crusade endgame are tuned so that when a group first encounters them, there is very little room for error from any group member, not just the tank.
I've been playing the game for several years. And I still learn new things on a regular basis. For example, I only learnt last week that at endgame, the totem for boosting strength is often more effective for keeping a tank alive than the totem that directly reduces damage (stoneskin). Sounds odd - but the strength totem can increase the tanks chance to block with a shield, and given the amount of damage a single shield block can save, it's a net win.
2a) WoW has a very simple combat model. This is true of EQ as well and since WoW is a copy of EQ that is not surprising. The entier game is a very simple equation of armor, staight up % damage mitigation + healing versus damage. The healing itself is extremely simple consistong mostly of only Heal over time or straight up static numbers. It is a very simple equation really.
Apparently you've never used WoW Web Stats. I don't think anyone who has actually seen the number of things going on literally at the exact same moment in time could make this statement.
Take one of my recent trips thru Kara for instance. Using WoW Web stats you can see exactly all what is going on in the entire raid. There were literally hundreds of different types of attacks. There were 52 different types of heals applied during the run. There were hundreds of different buffs and debuffs applied both by the members of the raid and the mobs that were fought. A Very simple equation huh? That's a completely ridiculous statement. Don't believe me, go view some instance runs on WoW Web stats yourself. Dig down deep into the raid and don't just look at the first page. Look at the abilities used. Browse the log file and use the filter option to filter out the information. Look at the hit/miss/crit percentages for just about every type of skill and their average damage amount, min and max amounts. Every single thing in that log is effected by things such as armor, resistances, resilience, hit chance, crit chance etc. The sheer volume of complex calculations to determine all that goes on in a fraction of a second are astounding. Here's a couple seconds from the log file from a recent Moroes attempt:
Moroes's Swing hits Stinkywinky for 2570 Physical damage (248 blocked)
That's what happened in a couple seconds and this fight was approximately 3 and half minutes long. And remember that each and every one of those things are only the RESULTS of what happened, none of the actual complex calculations required to actually come up with any of that stuff is shown. You think this is a very simple combat model. Well I disagree.
Ok you have a point moroes along with other boss fights are a little complex the FIRST few times you do the encounter... But what about after the 3rd and 4th time you fight these bosses (the 10th and 20th time), same with ZA, SSC, Hyjal ETC - the fights are fun at first but lose their difficulty quickly with repetition. This is why WOW is in trouble in the next year - there is actually games coming out that stray away from this snooze model of endgame. And dont get me wrong i even enjoyed every fight just about i did raiding in WOW, the key factor is the first few times - not repeating the same fights over and over for yrs at a time.
2a) WoW has a very simple combat model. This is true of EQ as well and since WoW is a copy of EQ that is not surprising. The entier game is a very simple equation of armor, staight up % damage mitigation + healing versus damage. The healing itself is extremely simple consistong mostly of only Heal over time or straight up static numbers. It is a very simple equation really.
Apparently you've never used WoW Web Stats. I don't think anyone who has actually seen the number of things going on literally at the exact same moment in time could make this statement.
Take one of my recent trips thru Kara for instance. Using WoW Web stats you can see exactly all what is going on in the entire raid. There were literally hundreds of different types of attacks. There were 52 different types of heals applied during the run. There were hundreds of different buffs and debuffs applied both by the members of the raid and the mobs that were fought. A Very simple equation huh? That's a completely ridiculous statement. Don't believe me, go view some instance runs on WoW Web stats yourself. Dig down deep into the raid and don't just look at the first page. Look at the abilities used. Browse the log file and use the filter option to filter out the information. Look at the hit/miss/crit percentages for just about every type of skill and their average damage amount, min and max amounts. Every single thing in that log is effected by things such as armor, resistances, resilience, hit chance, crit chance etc. The sheer volume of complex calculations to determine all that goes on in a fraction of a second are astounding. Here's a couple seconds from the log file from a recent Moroes attempt:
Moroes's Swing hits Stinkywinky for 2570 Physical damage (248 blocked)
That's what happened in a couple seconds and this fight was approximately 3 and half minutes long. And remember that each and every one of those things are only the RESULTS of what happened, none of the actual complex calculations required to actually come up with any of that stuff is shown. You think this is a very simple combat model. Well I disagree.
Ok you have a point moroes along with other boss fights are a little complex the FIRST few times you do the encounter... But what about after the 3rd and 4th time you fight these bosses (the 10th and 20th time), same with ZA, SSC, Hyjal ETC - the fights are fun at first but lose their difficulty quickly with repetition. This is why WOW is in trouble in the next year - there is actually games coming out that stray away from this snooze model of endgame. And dont get me wrong i even enjoyed every fight just about i did raiding in WOW, the key factor is the first few times - not repeating the same fights over and over for yrs at a time.
What game exactly is coming along that is different in endgame? Aoc is no different nor is warhammer, nor is Aion etc etc tec. Wow war has so called city siege, you think after a while it wont get repetitve ? They said that about lotro, and TR etc etc etc. Previous mmos have same endgame model and yet for some reason they get no crtisicm. Funny how people on this site blame wow for all the worlds problems.
You think in aoc and warhammer boss fights wont just be the same repetition? If you think they will not be then you are seriously deluded. The only game even mentioning different type of NPC AI path is Stargte worlds, and lest just say the jury is still out on that game. Boss fights are the same repetition in every mmo, infact every single boss fight in every single game I can think is the same repetition.
2a) WoW has a very simple combat model. This is true of EQ as well and since WoW is a copy of EQ that is not surprising. The entier game is a very simple equation of armor, staight up % damage mitigation + healing versus damage. The healing itself is extremely simple consistong mostly of only Heal over time or straight up static numbers. It is a very simple equation really.
Apparently you've never used WoW Web Stats. I don't think anyone who has actually seen the number of things going on literally at the exact same moment in time could make this statement.
Take one of my recent trips thru Kara for instance. Using WoW Web stats you can see exactly all what is going on in the entire raid. There were literally hundreds of different types of attacks. There were 52 different types of heals applied during the run. There were hundreds of different buffs and debuffs applied both by the members of the raid and the mobs that were fought. A Very simple equation huh? That's a completely ridiculous statement. Don't believe me, go view some instance runs on WoW Web stats yourself. Dig down deep into the raid and don't just look at the first page. Look at the abilities used. Browse the log file and use the filter option to filter out the information. Look at the hit/miss/crit percentages for just about every type of skill and their average damage amount, min and max amounts. Every single thing in that log is effected by things such as armor, resistances, resilience, hit chance, crit chance etc. The sheer volume of complex calculations to determine all that goes on in a fraction of a second are astounding. Here's a couple seconds from the log file from a recent Moroes attempt:
Moroes's Swing hits Stinkywinky for 2570 Physical damage (248 blocked)
That's what happened in a couple seconds and this fight was approximately 3 and half minutes long. And remember that each and every one of those things are only the RESULTS of what happened, none of the actual complex calculations required to actually come up with any of that stuff is shown. You think this is a very simple combat model. Well I disagree.
Ok you have a point moroes along with other boss fights are a little complex the FIRST few times you do the encounter... But what about after the 3rd and 4th time you fight these bosses (the 10th and 20th time), same with ZA, SSC, Hyjal ETC - the fights are fun at first but lose their difficulty quickly with repetition. This is why WOW is in trouble in the next year - there is actually games coming out that stray away from this snooze model of endgame. And dont get me wrong i even enjoyed every fight just about i did raiding in WOW, the key factor is the first few times - not repeating the same fights over and over for yrs at a time.
What game exactly is coming along that is different in endgame? Aoc is no different nor is warhammer, nor is Aion etc etc tec. Wow war has so called city siege, you think after a while it wont get repetitve ? They said that about lotro, and TR etc etc etc. Previous mmos have same endgame model and yet for some reason they get no crtisicm. Funny how people on this site blame wow for all the worlds problems.
You think in aoc and warhammer boss fights wont just be the same repetition? If you think they will not be then you are seriously deluded. The only game even mentioning different type of NPC AI path is Stargte worlds, and lest just say the jury is still out on that game. Boss fights are the same repetition in every mmo, infact every single boss fight in every single game I can think is the same repetition.
Um actually there is nothing more repetitive than endgame PvE, this is sadly a fact as those encounters DO NOT change ever unless the devs decide to make the encounter easier/harder or fix bugs with minor changes. Now as for you saying WAR and AoC's endgame will be similiar to WoW, i seriously think you should go actually read about those 3 games as you couldn't be further from the truth. The Sieging/city building PvP raiding etc will of course be repetitive if you chose to fight the same groups over and over and do the same things every time (meaning its you that choses to be repetitive not the game making you do so). The difference is however the players themselves will ALWAYS be evolving with new gear, new strats they use. every class also uses different skills/abilities (in almost every fight you never get the exact same outcome in PvP due to this). If you cant see the difference in the endgame of a PvP game and a PvE focused game i dont know what to tell ya....
I'm sorry, but do players in WOW not constantly evolve with new gear and strategies in the arenas? Because WOW is so easy, it takes no skill, I keep forgeting. Just pick a Warlock, hit a few button mindlessly and suddenly you know what you're doing.
Go ask any of the top players in the arenas how easy it all is. Go ask any REAL raider(not forum warriors) who actually completes the dungeons before everyone else, how easy it all is. I'll bet not a single person who claims WOW is so easy every did a raid without an FAQ or actually led one. Its very easy to follow orders on a raid when its on farm status. Its not easy actually figuring it all out before hand. The BAR exam is pretty damn easy with a cheat sheet you know.
Hard to level up = FFXI::: Deeply interdependent grouping system, steep experience curve, prejudice class/grouping system; among many other things like lets see; you lose exp when you die.
WoW is the most spoonfed MMO that's ever existed. There's not much of a death penalty. Everything is grinds and questing. It's targeted at soccer moms and 10 year olds alike.
WoW is the most spoonfed MMO that's ever existed. There's not much of a death penalty. Everything is grinds and questing. It's targeted at soccer moms and 10 year olds alike.
It's the easiest, not just easy.
So what in your opinion makes EVERY other game harder? I just don't see it to be honest.
A stiffer death penalty doesn't make the combat that took place before your death one bit more challenging. It just makes it more tedious.
Removing quests just makes leveling boring and/or tedious. Sitting in the same spot grinding mobs to level isn't exactly difficult.
There is a world of difference between tedious game mechanics and difficult gameplay. I've played a lot of games in my online time and none really stick out as difficult in comparison to others. I've seen to many game that substitute long boring mechanics in place of entertaining gameplay that draws a player in.
well i must say its everything my friend people thing wow is easy to get easy to play and easy to learn. i personally think its a very fun game and it is easy to learn and easy to lvl since they dont make u lose xp when you die.....thank god lol but some people think its full of imature little brats well it is i am personally 14 kinda young but i have a 22 year old bro and a 30 year old bro that love the game like me so people it may be full of brats and it may be easy buts its still a very very fun game
I played WoW for 2 years before I quit, and having raided most of that time in guilds that DIDN'T have areas on farm status, raiding in WoW is tough. Before I quit I had done all of Blackwing Lair before the expansion came out, and after the expansion all of Kharazan before I quit.
Prince Malchezzar was fairly simple as far as some of the fights go in Khara, but everyone still needed to know exactly what they were doing, and be able to conserve their mana for an extended period of time.
Having also raided in DDO and EQ2 among others, WoW blows them out of the water in difficulty. Not to mention fights are actually somewhat fun for the DPS, unlike EQ2's snoozefest raids with some of the most uninspiried fights I've ever done.
well i must say its everything my friend people thing wow is easy to get easy to play and easy to learn. i personally think its a very fun game and it is easy to learn and easy to lvl since they dont make u lose xp when you die.....thank god lol but some people think its full of imature little brats well it is i am personally 14 kinda young but i have a 22 year old bro and a 30 year old bro that love the game like me so people it may be full of brats and it may be easy buts its still a very very fun game
Heya Puddy!!!
Don't let anyone tell you that since you're 14 you are immature. Maturity has absolutely NOTHING to do with age. My 19 year old son has been playing video games since he was 5 years old and he's more mature than a lot of the folks I meet on these forums that are 40 or 50. Maturity is a lot of things, but mostly it has to do with tolerance. It's being able to have an opinion on something and being able to express it without resorting to insults to those who don't agree with you. It's also about being able to see the difference between an opinion and a fact. So welcome Puddy to the forums. Based on your first post, you won't have any problems here.
Comments
While I wouldn't go so far as to describe any mmo in and of itself as hard, I would pretty much insist that there are highly varying levels of difficulty between games. The problem is partially that mmo's have so many varieties of gameplay within them that it's not really fair to strictly say that one is harder than another.
However, I can tell you why I think wow and its various clones are easy. It's because all but the newest, most difficult challenges put into the game (new instances requiring large raids, that kind of thing) can be overcome most of the time with mediocre players in your party.
The thing about WoW is that if I'm in a party with a tank, or a healer, or DD, or whatever who's not very good at his job, more often than not, the party is only slowed a bit because of it. If the other players are decently skilled at their jobs, most challenges are still relatively easily overcome.
I'm going to use FFXI as a contrast because although I've played several MMO's for a very long time, this is one that I am extremely familiar the systems in place so I feel I can best illustrate what hard vs. easy means to me.
In FFXI, if you have a tank (for example) who isn't very good at his job, the entire party constantly has to drop everything they're doing and run for their lives. The distance you will have to run is significantly greater, it is likely at least one if not more of your party members will die while running (remember there is a death penalty both in XP and time-sink after being rezzed), and nobody will be able to save you. Also, depending on where you are at that moment, you may in fact risk killing every other party between you and the zone barrier (god I hate the jungle, though I've heard that they've changed this to stop the mob training, i.e. making the game easier). Now there are circumstances where the party can make up for a weak team member just like in WoW, but in most cases this player has to be an absolute GOD (very rare), or there has to be an unusual/highly creative job make-up spread across the team to deal with the eventuality...and the efficiency of the team instead of being mildly hampered by a weak player is SEVERELY impeded.
Then there's the fact that the way the various jobs interact changes significantly depending on a multitude of things: The current level of each party member, where they are fighting, what subjobs everyone has equipped, what type of weapon each person is using, and what specific mob the party is currently fighting to name only a few...what time of day it is in the world can even impact these things.
WoW tends to have required variety in combat only when going against some bosses that follow a basic script to be handled in a predefined way that any monkey can learn to do.
As a mage or a rogue in WoW, if I pull too much hate and it's one of the general mobs in the instance, most of the time I can take it down myself and I'll just need some extra healing. In FFXI if I'm a damage dealing class and I pull too much hate *no matter what mob the party is fighting*, everybody panics a little. It doesn't mean we won't get control back, but it does mean there is now a decent chance the party will now have to abandon post, or wipe. This doesn't only happen on bosses...it happens on bunny rabbits...it happens on crabs...it happens on any mob that requires a party to take down.
Having a situation like this means a variety of things:
Firstly, your team is only as good as its weakest player...period...there is no good way to compensate for this, there are even risks with a PL.
Secondly, it is not only the job of the players involved to fix the situation when control of a mob is lost. immediately every player must react attentively and quickly, or the entire party has to run for their lives or wipe...the entire party *must* be good at scrambling and adapting to changes in the immediate situation or the entire party has to run for their lives or wipe...the thing is EVERY party member has to be able to do this, not just most of them, or a few of them, or you quite literally end up standing around in game for hours waiting to get everybody together again in order to kill something.
Now when you have these qualities in a WoW party, you get a really badass party, but it's not required in order to advance. A decent party in FFXI requires significantly more coordination, group timing, communication, and attention than a decent party in WoW (I'm not talking about amazing groups, just a decent PuG that gets you through the night). Because the costs involved for not having a decent party in FFXI are significantly higher because having to run for your life or wipe costs a LOT more in terms of time, planning, and regrouping than it does in WoW.
The point is that having this level of complexity/difficulty forces parties to be significantly less tolerant of mediocre players. This doesn't mean they act like jerks necessarily (although some always do), it means that, most of the time, they are in fact more helpful in getting their team members better at playing because they absolutely must if they want to get anywhere in the game (remember FFXI is an extremely long grind, the reason the game works so well is because level capping isn't the only interesting thing there is to do, unlike WoW).
Party efficiency doesn't have even remotely the same level of significant impact in a game like WoW, party efficiency in a grind like FFXI is absolutely essential, and on top of that the method needed to achieve efficiency can change drastically by the swapping of a single party member, or weapon. Which means you must play well, if you do not play well, your entire team either kicks you, or wastes hours of time getting nowhere fast.
Most of the time in WoW simply being level 70 is enough to get you through whatever you need to get through. Being at the level cap in FFXI won't even stop you from getting killed just by running through about 1/3 of the zones in the game.
You're not making any sense. We're talking about comparative difficulty between games, you're not.
if you're suggesting that every aspect of every MMO is exactly the same in regards to difficulty because you can summarize them all under an extraordinarily generalized content label then I feel I must point out to you that this post doesn't make you smart, it doesn't make you special, and your comment here is completely irrelevant and specious...I don't care if you were kidding, you're not clever for this post.
Now then, if you are in fact saying that playing any of these games is easy and they pose no challenge, then how come there are so many shitty pullers, tanks, off-tanks, healers, damage dealers, team leaders, guilds and players out there in the mmo world?
Ppl calling WoW easy are doing it because they are sick of dealing with players who don't do their jobs well and still get rewarded for it. You don't have to be any good at the game to advance. The bottom level required in order to pass in WoW and its clones is significantly lower than in several other games. I'd like there to be fewer players in my guild at level cap who aren't completely incompetent morons...but you don't have to develop a decent playskill to advance in WoW. All the guild needs is a handful of good players and a bunch of mediocre ones and a copy of the script to pass around and any instance can be taken down.
Does this situation change much from MMO to MMO, no, not really, they are all similar in a variety of manners, but there's no way the guy who's drooling into his keyboard and initially tried to "click on a button on the hotbar" by tapping it with his fingernail should be at level 70...AND STILL TRYING TO CLICK ON THE HOTBAR WITH HIS FINGER.
Wow is much easier to play than Eve. Im not saying this makes Eve any better (it can get boring just as easy), but definately:
Eve is much more complex.
Eve has much more to learn.
If you die (lose a ship) most of the time its more of a loss than dieing 20 times in WoW, sometimes like dieing 10000 times in Wow (Titan anyone?).
You need much more teamplay.
You need to make decisions about skilling your character.
And Eve PvP is not even on the same planet as Wow PvP.
There is no right or wrong -
There is only fun and boring.
1) You go up in levels quicker than many other games. I do not consider this easy, but many people espeically old timer EQ-type people think it is. On the various boards here you can see many people saying games are way to easy because they got to some level in some amount of time.
Personally I think this part is just silly. But you will never get anyone who uses it to admit that. And to some degree WoW itself uses this idea. Just look at the time constraints on raids etc.
2a) WoW has a very simple combat model. This is true of EQ as well and since WoW is a copy of EQ that is not surprising. The entier game is a very simple equation of armor, staight up % damage mitigation + healing versus damage. The healing itself is extremely simple consistong mostly of only Heal over time or straight up static numbers. It is a very simple equation really.
A quick examination of CoX and Guild Wars makes it quite obvious how simple and limiting the WoW game mechanics are. Guild Wars have far more varied and deep healing mechanics and far far superior counter system. CoX has much more options for defense and mititagation and offers a more intricate way of doing crowd control. Just the addition of Magnitude on mezzes/stuns make CoX CC much more interesting.
2b) Also WoW for the most part is mapped out very explicitly. You go from zone 1to zone 2a or 2b to zone 3a or 3b etc. The instances you goto are limited to abotu 2 or 3 per level tier and for the most are very well known quote quickly.
I hear a lot of peeps saying oh WoW is easy etc.
I am saying that it is just as hard or as easy as any other MMO out there period.
You got to look at what hard means here,
1) Hard to understand
2) Hard to execute
3)Hard to level up.
I personally don't find Wow or any other MMO hard with regards to the first two points. And possible not hard to level up either, it just a matter of time.
Lol at your post, how do you ascertain that i am not an older player. And i am not accusing anybody of anything.
My advice to you is to read through and understand posts before coming on here and making a fool of yourself by commenting on what you preceive is being talked about when infact you have no idea!
I think by hard, in this case means depth or alot of options that can be tough to grasp for a new player of MMO's(Overwhelming sensation) Where do I go now ???..WoW doesn't really have that much surprises when it comes to this..as in you do not have many options to choose from as a new player
Look at the crafting in EQ2, even thou they made it easier than the original crafting system, it's still "harder" to understand and grasp than WoW's crafting system..It's also a tad bit more realistic than WoW's crafting...
But all in all..I agree with most of what you say here,,Easy or Hard what is that "really"...
For a MMO to be hard it need's better AI in the long run..
But ALAS..It can be "hard" to overcome a harch death penaly, aspecially if you play careless, and without death penalty people tend to be more careless
You're not making any sense. We're talking about comparative difficulty between games, you're not.
if you're suggesting that every aspect of every MMO is exactly the same in regards to difficulty because you can summarize them all under an extraordinarily generalized content label then I feel I must point out to you that this post doesn't make you smart, it doesn't make you special, and your comment here is completely irrelevant and specious...I don't care if you were kidding, you're not clever for this post.
Now then, if you are in fact saying that playing any of these games is easy and they pose no challenge, then how come there are so many shitty pullers, tanks, off-tanks, healers, damage dealers, team leaders, guilds and players out there in the mmo world?
Ppl calling WoW easy are doing it because they are sick of dealing with players who don't do their jobs well and still get rewarded for it. You don't have to be any good at the game to advance. The bottom level required in order to pass in WoW and its clones is significantly lower than in several other games. I'd like there to be fewer players in my guild at level cap who aren't completely incompetent morons...but you don't have to develop a decent playskill to advance in WoW. All the guild needs is a handful of good players and a bunch of mediocre ones and a copy of the script to pass around and any instance can be taken down.
Does this situation change much from MMO to MMO, no, not really, they are all similar in a variety of manners, but there's no way the guy who's drooling into his keyboard and initially tried to "click on a button on the hotbar" by tapping it with his fingernail should be at level 70...AND STILL TRYING TO CLICK ON THE HOTBAR WITH HIS FINGER.
Let me answer a few of your points.People are bad players, because of a few reasons. One reason may be they are new to the genre. Once you get the hang of tanking, or pulling, or anything it becomes second nature. Secondly, its unfortunate, but a lot of people in this world are really, really not very bright. I've seen 8 year olds play EQ. If they can do it, trust me it isn't too hard. I met plenty of morons in EQ and DAoC.
There are certainly good players and bad players, which is what you are eluding to. You want recieve any arguments from me.
These games do pose a challenge. Just a very small one. Once you have the AI figured out, guess what? It doesn't change. You've mastered it, and you can post it on the internet, so every group leader or guild leader can tell you what to do. And people follow those directions.
As for you saying I'm not special or smart. I beg to differ. God made me, so I'm special.
On a serious note, you do realize people do instanced dungeons in WoW, and its not all about solo play, don't you? Granted, one can very well get to 70 without doing it. There is PvP in WoW, which may not be the best implentation, but is certainly better than going against the same AI hours on end. There are more paths in WoW than the "easy" solo route straight to 70. Like most games, WoW is what you make it.
You're not making any sense. We're talking about comparative difficulty between games, you're not.
if you're suggesting that every aspect of every MMO is exactly the same in regards to difficulty because you can summarize them all under an extraordinarily generalized content label then I feel I must point out to you that this post doesn't make you smart, it doesn't make you special, and your comment here is completely irrelevant and specious...I don't care if you were kidding, you're not clever for this post.
Now then, if you are in fact saying that playing any of these games is easy and they pose no challenge, then how come there are so many shitty pullers, tanks, off-tanks, healers, damage dealers, team leaders, guilds and players out there in the mmo world?
Ppl calling WoW easy are doing it because they are sick of dealing with players who don't do their jobs well and still get rewarded for it. You don't have to be any good at the game to advance. The bottom level required in order to pass in WoW and its clones is significantly lower than in several other games. I'd like there to be fewer players in my guild at level cap who aren't completely incompetent morons...but you don't have to develop a decent playskill to advance in WoW. All the guild needs is a handful of good players and a bunch of mediocre ones and a copy of the script to pass around and any instance can be taken down.
Does this situation change much from MMO to MMO, no, not really, they are all similar in a variety of manners, but there's no way the guy who's drooling into his keyboard and initially tried to "click on a button on the hotbar" by tapping it with his fingernail should be at level 70...AND STILL TRYING TO CLICK ON THE HOTBAR WITH HIS FINGER.
Why do you keep using the word "job" for a game? Maybe you take these things a bit too seriously. Most people play to have fun, not to number crunch or whine because they have to recover from a wipe or point fingers at the supposed "weak" players. I've grouped with control freaks like you and I'll take a group that is chaotic and fun over one that is so controlled that it's an agonizing bore to even play.
This is one of the reasons why I find WoW superior to any other MMO on the market. It and many of it's players are here to have fun. Not to work, not to criticize players who make mistakes, not to grind endless hours just to get one level. There's a fine line between challenging combat and combat that forces you to play specifically as the developers insist it be played out, allowing absolutely no freedom for the players. These games inevitably get relegated to niche status in the industry, because not many people will put up with that kind of crap. That kind of gameplay isn't hard, it just requires you to play simon says and when the blue light goes off, press x button and if you make a mistake and press y then the group wipes and you get labeled as a mediocre player, puhlease.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
I don't number crunch, as a matter of fact I play a very loose game with my guilds, always have, I'm more interested in having fun than caring about leveling (one of the reasons I don't care for WoW, it pretty much only rewards leveling.)
The reason I use the word "job" is because it's an accurate term, it's a position that is required to be fulfilled in a party. A Tank is a certain player's, job. If you disagree you must not get very far in party based games. I have no problem with weak players, I love to help out and assist anyway I can, and I'm grateful for company.
But when the question of a game's difficulty comes into play, the game that allows anybody to play any half-assed way they want and still get by, is *not* as difficult of a game (which you may remember was the point of this conversation). The game that requires changing your playing styles and adapting creatively to various situations is significantly more difficult, and a LOT more fun.
"These games inevitably get relegated to niche status in the industry, because not many people will put up with that kind of crap. That kind of gameplay isn't hard, it just requires you to play simon says and when the blue light goes off, press x button and if you make a mistake and press y then the group wipes and you get labeled as a mediocre player, puhlease."
You're very confused...you think I'm complaining about people playing and not following a script, when in fact what I'm saying is that WoW and it's clones expect you to follow a script, and that in fact is what makes them easier games. "When the blue light goes off, press x button..." is EXACTLY what WoW game play is like, this is why the game isn;t challenging.
Playing a tank well means you DON'T follow some scripted gameplay (unless your script is really long and complicated). Playing a damage dealer well means you DON'T follow some scripted gameplay. Same goes for all other party jobs.
Players in WoW can get away with following a script over and over again and having the slack picked up by the two good players in the party. This in effect means that WoW is an easier game to play. Other games will get your party crucified for poor players, this means the game is harder.
How many years did ppl insist on having two to three people pull the dragons out of the egg-room in UBRS so they didn't leroy the place? How many people until the expansion decided to fight Onyxia in a different manner than the typically scripted one? How many people insist on standing in very specific places and running mods to let them know they are the bomb? WoW's PvE gameplay can be done by any player regardless of how good they are so long as they are the right level and follow the scripted actions...and the party-dynamic, in terms of class content, changes virtually nothing...in games that are more challenging, the entire combat style has to be adapted to suit the classes in the party (and the play style based on party makeup changes DRASTICALLY), the players don't necessarily know what the mob's going to do at any given moment, and there aren't safe places to stand.
That and it's significantly harder for the team to compensate for a poor player.
A bad healer can be covered in most cases with a good one, a bad tank can be covered in most cases with a good off-tank, or even with good DD and healers who recognize they have to hold off in order to avoid pulling. Doing this sort of balancing should be expected, but it's often NOT necessary in WoW. 2-3 players can almost always pull the weight of an entire party, and as a result, a LOT of players mindlessly stumble through the whole game thinking they know what they're doing.
The game is *easier* than those that don't have so much leeway. Less thinking + less attentiveness + less communication + lower reflexes necessary == easier, I'm not exactly sure how else to define a game's difficulty, but apparently you do it differently, so I'd like to hear from you what makes one game harder than another.
To put it a different way, in some other games I can think of, you wouldn't necessarily know when or if Ony was going to lift off from the ground or not...so you have to be creative and adaptable.
My point is the game doesn't *encourage* getting better at playing, in fact creative solutions are only necessary if you''ve decided to do something patently against the design of the game (e.g. 3-manning UBRS naked). So you wind up with a bunch of not very good players at the top. Whether or not that bothers you or me is beside the point, the point is that the game is therefore easier than others...you just follow the script.
In regards to having decent players or not and my frustration level, I don't expect the players in any group I play with to be incredible, but I'm embarrassed when I'm in a PuG with one other guild member and that guild member can't hold his weight at all with the rest of the group trying to accomplish a specific goal and everyone else doing quite well together.
I don't think everyone should play at my or anyone elses specific level, I have no problem with different styles of play. I just ask that the bar for average be better than the mage wiping the group 7 times in a row...yet for some reason I keep running into level 70 mages that do just that...regularly. I expect the damage dealer to figure out by the twelfth time he's pulled the hate off the tank that he should lighten up a bit, or at least not jump all over the rest of the party when they ask him to ease off.
There is a prevalent attitude in WoW of "HOW DARE YOU TELL ME HOW TO PLAY?!?!??? I'M A LEVEL 70!!!!!! I KNOW WHAT I'M DOING!!" that's just pathetic, because anybody can get to level 70 in a week and a half without even trying.
I'm not a control freak in the slightest, it's just that my idea of fun isn't trying to get 5 feet in an instance for 6 hours because one person consistently fails at life...I expect wipes, I expect failure, and I actually insist on personally wiping every guild party I am in at least once by trying to pull the entire instance because I think it's hilarious to do...trust me sheer chaos is usually what comes from my groups, and it's a riot, but the fact that I can even pull an entire room and get the mobs all back to the group more often than not without dying is another indicator that maybe WoW is a little *easier* than others...especially considering I can do this without playing a hunter.
But when the group is seriously involved in a specific project, for a specific goal, I also expect somebody at the level cap to have enough experience to be able to adapt or try new things when something they do over and over again consistently fails...and many in WoW can't do that. This is why WoW is *easier* than several other MMO's, even when the player isn't adapting well, half the time you can still survive and make it through. In the *harder* MMO's you can't, everybody actually has know the basics of how their "job"(if you'd prefer a different term for party combat positions, please feel free to substitue something else here, but you're arguing semantics and it's completely specious) works.
I don't care about damage meters, I don't care about winning, I'm fighting internet monsters for internet pants, but at the same time, I do occasionally need my keys/parts/other things in order to experience the rest of the game, and would rather not spend 3 weeks trying to get them when all I have to do is kill a handful of level 71 mobs.
I stand by my point, any game where a player who attempts to click on his hotbar by hitting his monitor with his finger can hit the level cap is simply going to be easier by any standard whatsoever than one that requires you to learn how to play.
ah-men. more power to ya.
-Maltos-
Take one of my recent trips thru Kara for instance. Using WoW Web stats you can see exactly all what is going on in the entire raid. There were literally hundreds of different types of attacks. There were 52 different types of heals applied during the run. There were hundreds of different buffs and debuffs applied both by the members of the raid and the mobs that were fought. A Very simple equation huh? That's a completely ridiculous statement. Don't believe me, go view some instance runs on WoW Web stats yourself. Dig down deep into the raid and don't just look at the first page. Look at the abilities used. Browse the log file and use the filter option to filter out the information. Look at the hit/miss/crit percentages for just about every type of skill and their average damage amount, min and max amounts. Every single thing in that log is effected by things such as armor, resistances, resilience, hit chance, crit chance etc. The sheer volume of complex calculations to determine all that goes on in a fraction of a second are astounding. Here's a couple seconds from the log file from a recent Moroes attempt:
That's what happened in a couple seconds and this fight was approximately 3 and half minutes long. And remember that each and every one of those things are only the RESULTS of what happened, none of the actual complex calculations required to actually come up with any of that stuff is shown. You think this is a very simple combat model. Well I disagree.
Take one of my recent trips thru Kara for instance. Using WoW Web stats you can see exactly all what is going on in the entire raid. There were literally hundreds of different types of attacks. There were 52 different types of heals applied during the run. There were hundreds of different buffs and debuffs applied both by the members of the raid and the mobs that were fought. A Very simple equation huh? That's a completely ridiculous statement. Don't believe me, go view some instance runs on WoW Web stats yourself. Dig down deep into the raid and don't just look at the first page. Look at the abilities used. Browse the log file and use the filter option to filter out the information. Look at the hit/miss/crit percentages for just about every type of skills and their average damage amount, min and max amounts. Every single thing in that log is effected by things such as armor, resistances, resilience, hit chance, crit chance etc. The sheer volume of complex calculations to determine all that goes on in a fraction of a second are astounding. Here's a couple seconds from the log file from a recent Moroes attempt:
That's what happened in a couple seconds and this fight was approximately 3 and half minutes long. And remember that each and every one of those things are only the RESULTS of what happened, none of the actual complex calculations required to actually come up with any of that stuff is shown. You think this is a very simple combat model. Well I disagree.
So what? The same thing can happen in CoX except that there are 3 other ways to add defense on and the debuffs etc have extra considerations.
If you think that is complex then CoX is 4 times as complex when you take in Magnitudes and opooising mez resistance and mex protection, the relationship between Avoidance, % mitigation, and regeration. Then add in the fact that most buffs and debuffs can stack unlike WoW.
The fact is WoW has a limited palette. Just because you think WoW's stuff is complex does not it is COMPARATIVELY complex.
The designers of WoW keep their palette intentionally limited. But anyone who has played either Guild Wars or CoX and has a decent understanding of the underlying mechanics finds it obvious that WoW's system is more simple.
It is a common mistake to believe that simple is easy. This is entirely wrong. Simple is often quite hard. But this is what people say.
However to me WoW is quite simple, there are often many things going on, but acutally understanding the effects is quite easy. Compared to the very learned debates I have seen on the CoX boards it seriously pales in comparison and is in fact quite easy to nail down exactly what is happening and which things are effective or nto effective.
If you do not believe me then goto the CoX boards and read the various guides on defense that Arcanaville has written. The mathematical modeling of WoW is much much simpler than what Arcanaville has done to try to mathematically compare just the defenses of particular sets. When you consider the math you would go through to evaluate the performance of a Warrior and then consider what Arcanaville has done it should be quite obvious. I have read and understood the many comparisons between Warrior tanking and Druid tanking in WoW and it is quite simple as far as I am concerned, there are only a few consideration and they are easily modeled.
Oh yes, magnitude is so complex. So now you have to use your hold power twice instead of once to overcome someone's defenses, really complex, really in depth combat there. CoH is one of the simplest games out there and you have the gall to call it more complex than WoW? Wow.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
I played WoW for just over a year from launch. I found it very fun, and easy. Compared to the games I was used to the biggest challenge was presented by the idiocy of some of my fellow players, not the content (though fun). Sorry mate, just the truth from my WoW experience.
Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Give a fish a man and he will eat for a month!
WoW is intentionally designed to be simple to play. That doesn't mean it isn't hard to master.
Almost any adult of average intelligence or above can get to max level. They can also complete normal mode instances throughout the game. However, from then on things start getting a lot more complex.
You can have 2 people with the same gear and spec, and yet one of them can output twice as much DPS as the other one, due to having a better idea of what skills to use and when.
Some skills take knowledge and ability to think on your feet to master - for example, many hunters are endgame are unable to reliably hold a mob in a trap for a minute or more. But the good ones can.
Someone mentioned earlier that in WoW a single mistake doesn't matter much. At endgame it most certainly does. If your rogue pulls aggro from one of the nastier non-boss mobs in a heroic, he will die in one or two blows, no matter how good your healer is.
Some fights require co-ordination between an entire team of 10 people. Someone above quoted a combat log from Moroes. This is only the second 10 man encounter at the current wow endgame, but even here, the party need to use cc and off-tanking to handle 5 mobs simultaneously. Any mistake in dealing with any of these mobs could easily lead to dead healers followed by a wipe.
Or to take another example - consider Aran. This is the 6th 10 man boss, and basically comes down to "can every member of your raid respond accurately to every one of Aran's special attacks for a period of 5 minutes". One out of 10 party members doing the wrong thing can easily cause a wipe (particularly for groups that don't outgear the encounter).
Unlike in the original vanilla WoW, most encounters in the Burning Crusade endgame are tuned so that when a group first encounters them, there is very little room for error from any group member, not just the tank.
I've been playing the game for several years. And I still learn new things on a regular basis. For example, I only learnt last week that at endgame, the totem for boosting strength is often more effective for keeping a tank alive than the totem that directly reduces damage (stoneskin). Sounds odd - but the strength totem can increase the tanks chance to block with a shield, and given the amount of damage a single shield block can save, it's a net win.
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Take one of my recent trips thru Kara for instance. Using WoW Web stats you can see exactly all what is going on in the entire raid. There were literally hundreds of different types of attacks. There were 52 different types of heals applied during the run. There were hundreds of different buffs and debuffs applied both by the members of the raid and the mobs that were fought. A Very simple equation huh? That's a completely ridiculous statement. Don't believe me, go view some instance runs on WoW Web stats yourself. Dig down deep into the raid and don't just look at the first page. Look at the abilities used. Browse the log file and use the filter option to filter out the information. Look at the hit/miss/crit percentages for just about every type of skill and their average damage amount, min and max amounts. Every single thing in that log is effected by things such as armor, resistances, resilience, hit chance, crit chance etc. The sheer volume of complex calculations to determine all that goes on in a fraction of a second are astounding. Here's a couple seconds from the log file from a recent Moroes attempt:
That's what happened in a couple seconds and this fight was approximately 3 and half minutes long. And remember that each and every one of those things are only the RESULTS of what happened, none of the actual complex calculations required to actually come up with any of that stuff is shown. You think this is a very simple combat model. Well I disagree.
Ok you have a point moroes along with other boss fights are a little complex the FIRST few times you do the encounter... But what about after the 3rd and 4th time you fight these bosses (the 10th and 20th time), same with ZA, SSC, Hyjal ETC - the fights are fun at first but lose their difficulty quickly with repetition. This is why WOW is in trouble in the next year - there is actually games coming out that stray away from this snooze model of endgame. And dont get me wrong i even enjoyed every fight just about i did raiding in WOW, the key factor is the first few times - not repeating the same fights over and over for yrs at a time.
I play a lot of games...
Apparently you've never used WoW Web Stats. I don't think anyone who has actually seen the number of things going on literally at the exact same moment in time could make this statement.Take one of my recent trips thru Kara for instance. Using WoW Web stats you can see exactly all what is going on in the entire raid. There were literally hundreds of different types of attacks. There were 52 different types of heals applied during the run. There were hundreds of different buffs and debuffs applied both by the members of the raid and the mobs that were fought. A Very simple equation huh? That's a completely ridiculous statement. Don't believe me, go view some instance runs on WoW Web stats yourself. Dig down deep into the raid and don't just look at the first page. Look at the abilities used. Browse the log file and use the filter option to filter out the information. Look at the hit/miss/crit percentages for just about every type of skill and their average damage amount, min and max amounts. Every single thing in that log is effected by things such as armor, resistances, resilience, hit chance, crit chance etc. The sheer volume of complex calculations to determine all that goes on in a fraction of a second are astounding. Here's a couple seconds from the log file from a recent Moroes attempt:
That's what happened in a couple seconds and this fight was approximately 3 and half minutes long. And remember that each and every one of those things are only the RESULTS of what happened, none of the actual complex calculations required to actually come up with any of that stuff is shown. You think this is a very simple combat model. Well I disagree.
Ok you have a point moroes along with other boss fights are a little complex the FIRST few times you do the encounter... But what about after the 3rd and 4th time you fight these bosses (the 10th and 20th time), same with ZA, SSC, Hyjal ETC - the fights are fun at first but lose their difficulty quickly with repetition. This is why WOW is in trouble in the next year - there is actually games coming out that stray away from this snooze model of endgame. And dont get me wrong i even enjoyed every fight just about i did raiding in WOW, the key factor is the first few times - not repeating the same fights over and over for yrs at a time.
What game exactly is coming along that is different in endgame? Aoc is no different nor is warhammer, nor is Aion etc etc tec. Wow war has so called city siege, you think after a while it wont get repetitve ? They said that about lotro, and TR etc etc etc. Previous mmos have same endgame model and yet for some reason they get no crtisicm. Funny how people on this site blame wow for all the worlds problems.
You think in aoc and warhammer boss fights wont just be the same repetition? If you think they will not be then you are seriously deluded. The only game even mentioning different type of NPC AI path is Stargte worlds, and lest just say the jury is still out on that game. Boss fights are the same repetition in every mmo, infact every single boss fight in every single game I can think is the same repetition.
Take one of my recent trips thru Kara for instance. Using WoW Web stats you can see exactly all what is going on in the entire raid. There were literally hundreds of different types of attacks. There were 52 different types of heals applied during the run. There were hundreds of different buffs and debuffs applied both by the members of the raid and the mobs that were fought. A Very simple equation huh? That's a completely ridiculous statement. Don't believe me, go view some instance runs on WoW Web stats yourself. Dig down deep into the raid and don't just look at the first page. Look at the abilities used. Browse the log file and use the filter option to filter out the information. Look at the hit/miss/crit percentages for just about every type of skill and their average damage amount, min and max amounts. Every single thing in that log is effected by things such as armor, resistances, resilience, hit chance, crit chance etc. The sheer volume of complex calculations to determine all that goes on in a fraction of a second are astounding. Here's a couple seconds from the log file from a recent Moroes attempt:
That's what happened in a couple seconds and this fight was approximately 3 and half minutes long. And remember that each and every one of those things are only the RESULTS of what happened, none of the actual complex calculations required to actually come up with any of that stuff is shown. You think this is a very simple combat model. Well I disagree.
Ok you have a point moroes along with other boss fights are a little complex the FIRST few times you do the encounter... But what about after the 3rd and 4th time you fight these bosses (the 10th and 20th time), same with ZA, SSC, Hyjal ETC - the fights are fun at first but lose their difficulty quickly with repetition. This is why WOW is in trouble in the next year - there is actually games coming out that stray away from this snooze model of endgame. And dont get me wrong i even enjoyed every fight just about i did raiding in WOW, the key factor is the first few times - not repeating the same fights over and over for yrs at a time.
What game exactly is coming along that is different in endgame? Aoc is no different nor is warhammer, nor is Aion etc etc tec. Wow war has so called city siege, you think after a while it wont get repetitve ? They said that about lotro, and TR etc etc etc. Previous mmos have same endgame model and yet for some reason they get no crtisicm. Funny how people on this site blame wow for all the worlds problems.
You think in aoc and warhammer boss fights wont just be the same repetition? If you think they will not be then you are seriously deluded. The only game even mentioning different type of NPC AI path is Stargte worlds, and lest just say the jury is still out on that game. Boss fights are the same repetition in every mmo, infact every single boss fight in every single game I can think is the same repetition.
I play a lot of games...
wow is not easy, if they think it is then tell em to play it and win a tournament or so
I'm sorry, but do players in WOW not constantly evolve with new gear and strategies in the arenas? Because WOW is so easy, it takes no skill, I keep forgeting. Just pick a Warlock, hit a few button mindlessly and suddenly you know what you're doing.
Go ask any of the top players in the arenas how easy it all is. Go ask any REAL raider(not forum warriors) who actually completes the dungeons before everyone else, how easy it all is. I'll bet not a single person who claims WOW is so easy every did a raid without an FAQ or actually led one. Its very easy to follow orders on a raid when its on farm status. Its not easy actually figuring it all out before hand. The BAR exam is pretty damn easy with a cheat sheet you know.
Hard to level up = FFXI::: Deeply interdependent grouping system, steep experience curve, prejudice class/grouping system; among many other things like lets see; you lose exp when you die.
WoW is the most spoonfed MMO that's ever existed. There's not much of a death penalty. Everything is grinds and questing. It's targeted at soccer moms and 10 year olds alike.
It's the easiest, not just easy.
A stiffer death penalty doesn't make the combat that took place before your death one bit more challenging. It just makes it more tedious.
Removing quests just makes leveling boring and/or tedious. Sitting in the same spot grinding mobs to level isn't exactly difficult.
There is a world of difference between tedious game mechanics and difficult gameplay. I've played a lot of games in my online time and none really stick out as difficult in comparison to others. I've seen to many game that substitute long boring mechanics in place of entertaining gameplay that draws a player in.
i am the puddinator
I played WoW for 2 years before I quit, and having raided most of that time in guilds that DIDN'T have areas on farm status, raiding in WoW is tough. Before I quit I had done all of Blackwing Lair before the expansion came out, and after the expansion all of Kharazan before I quit.
Prince Malchezzar was fairly simple as far as some of the fights go in Khara, but everyone still needed to know exactly what they were doing, and be able to conserve their mana for an extended period of time.
Having also raided in DDO and EQ2 among others, WoW blows them out of the water in difficulty. Not to mention fights are actually somewhat fun for the DPS, unlike EQ2's snoozefest raids with some of the most uninspiried fights I've ever done.
Don't let anyone tell you that since you're 14 you are immature. Maturity has absolutely NOTHING to do with age. My 19 year old son has been playing video games since he was 5 years old and he's more mature than a lot of the folks I meet on these forums that are 40 or 50. Maturity is a lot of things, but mostly it has to do with tolerance. It's being able to have an opinion on something and being able to express it without resorting to insults to those who don't agree with you. It's also about being able to see the difference between an opinion and a fact. So welcome Puddy to the forums. Based on your first post, you won't have any problems here.