One can define it as something difficult to endure.
I would say most MMOGs are pretty easy to learn, often harder to master. I don't think that is exactly what people mean when they say WoW is easy though.
It has been established from earlier posters: levelling in WoW is easy. Some have tried to debunk it by saying a steeper levelling curve does not provide difficulty. I will be blunt. You are wrong.
Since it has been mentioned many times, FFXI is quite a bit more difficult to level than WoW. It absolutely requires a group and more skill to level. Yes, it requires more skill. The party has to know its roll and how to operate. I have seen players in WoW that are not effective at endgame because they did not have to learn there class during the levelling process.
Furthermore, I would say that it is hard to endure a steeper levelling curve than it is to endure a quick one. If you look at AO or AC (from their early days at least), in the time it takes me to level from 1-70 on WoW, I would probably only be somewhere in the 50-80 range in the other games (at least AC, I didn't play AO much). AC could literally take months of quite a bit of playing to get even remotely high in level. There are not just 70 levels though, there were 126 (It is actually higher now). This is very difficult to attain. If I recall, a great deal of the xp that needs to be gained is after level 100-110.
You are deluding yourself if you think this is just as easy. I am not talking about the enemies you had to face to get to 70. We are not talking about combat at all. Likewise, we are not talking about the method required (Questing vs. grinding). We are talking about the levelling curve, which is higher in all three of the games named.
This is only one aspect. Currency in FFXI is also very difficult. Armor is not easily acquired like in WoW. This creates a situation difficult to endure.
Of course, there is also the death penalty. Again, we are not talking about the battle that took place that caused you to die. That might be just as difficult as it is in other games. WoW's DP is easy to endure. It is an inconvenient walk back to your corpse coupled with diminishing armor and a small fine of easy-to-earn money.
In AC, you not only had to run back to your body, you had to do it while alive (and thus capable of dying again). You always get vitae, which reduces stats, and you lose items and money on your corpse. This is very hard to endure. You may spend a night just trying to retrieve it. This is challenging, especially considering the consequences if you do not (loss of items and money). In addition, AC loot is random. A great piece is not gauranteed. Unlike WoW, grinding the same mob may not get you that epic you have been waiting for. Instead, in AC, it drops and you cherish the mere fact that you were lucky enough to get an item so great (and that just about no one else has), and thus you wish to hold onto it at the cost of almost anything.
This also makes PvP harder, as people can loot your corpse. Go play on the Darktide server and tell me it is just as easy as WoW's PvP. Keep in mind, WoW's PvP is just a grind. You lose nothing but you eventually can gain everything. This is true even in arena, but at least arena factors in player's skill for success. It is not, of course, required. You can get the gear either way, it is just slow if you are less skilled.
Really, I think the main problem with WoW, and what makes it so easy, is the minimal consequences. You can say that just makes it longer and doesn't help the casual at all. I believe that is the point of being harder though. Some of you seem to be ignoring the concept of difficulty and seem to define it as the difficulty of a fight. It is not just limited to battle...
Taking longer to level doesn't make a game more "difficult".
Taking longer to get an item doesn't make the gameplay more challenging.
Requiring a group to level doesn't make a the game mechanics any more engaging than a game the offers both group and solo options to level.
All those things are just measures of time to reach a certain point in a game and none of which is more difficult than the next. I've played many MMOs and the group mechanics are always similar enough that it can be picked up in half an hour or so if you have any MMO experience. If someone solos to level cap and never groups of course they won't have any experience to draw on and of course will have problems adjusting. However that is not something that is unique to WoW. I've played many games where that exact thing happens all the time. For example halfing druids in everquest were famous for being idiots in a dungeon because most of them spent 45 levels kiting dwarves around in butcherblock or some other zone.
I can't for the life of me think of a single sword and elf game out that is more difficult than the next. They all use the same basic formula of tank, heal and dps. Trying to make one game more elite than another because it takes longer to accomplish something based solely on the amount of time required isn't a solid statement. The same goes for how harsh punishments are for failures. Sure it might make it more tedious to lose at something, but it does not make the encounter that lead up to defeat one single bit more challenging. There is no difference in that respect between no death penalty and losing all your items since it is all after the fact of the events that lead up to the death. All that it affects is how much set back a person prefers in their MMO of choice when they do lose to an encounter. Neither is more difficult than the next except the amount of time needed to recover.
Forcing people to group to gain levels doesn't make a game hard, it just restricts playstyle options.
Requiring someone to take 10 years to reach max level doesn't make all those encounters along the way any more difficult in the slightest. It just takes more of them.
I will agree that there are some classes in some games that can trivialize any challenge the game has to offer. An example would be fire/fire tankers the first few months of COH or something similar. All games have their balance issues though.
You reduce difficulties to merely combat alone. You, like many others here, do not seem to understand what "hard" means. It is a difficult task. Time and effort are both factors of this.
It is a far more difficult task to reach the level cap in certain other games. It is longer and requires more effort. That makes it harder.
A death penalty provides a consequent, making the task or situation more difficult than it previously was.
Do not twist the meaning to how hard the battle was for that is not the only element to game difficulty.
If we simply talk about the enemies that we face, WoW loses here too. I have to face something four levels higher than me in order to challenge my character. In FFXI, I very well may die against something of equal caliber. Respectively to level, that would make FFXI harder in general combat. Of course, you are required to group to level, that does not take away the fact that the battles are in fact harder.
WoW is not the worst offender in that respect. Returning to Asheron's Call, I can take enemies over 30 levels higher than me if I am properly buffed. Respectively to level, that would make AC enemies far weaker than FFXI.
Though, I believe the game is easy, I also don't participate in some of the content. I would say raiding may be quite hard in WoW. Each component has to be taken individually because it varies between games. I would not say WoW as a whole is easy, just many aspects of it are easy.
Is it more difficult to kill an orc 10 times than it is to kill it 20? No, each encounter is the same, just repeated. Requiring 50, 100 or 2093598235 doesn't make the base encounter one single bit more challenging.
The same applies to death penalties. Losing no XP vs losing 50 levels doesn't make the gameplay more difficult. It might add a greater sense of danger, but that has zero effect on the actual play of winning or losing. Everyone has their thresh hold of what they will tolerate as far as a penalty for losing, but that doesn't make one game more difficult over another. Death penalties all boil down to how much time you must reinvest to recoup a loss. That does not factor into difficulty, just tolerance.
Long story short, playing a game that requires more time doesn't make the game harder. Harder to put up with maybe, but not a greater challenge. Time spent does not represent ability needed.
Neither is level of the creature you fight. All encounters boil down to how a chance to win, regardless of the level number assigned to a NPC. Gauging simply by the number listed after a mobs name is falling prey to a false sense of danger. All games have a curve of success and then the devs assign random numbers to that curve which makes up the mobs levels. Who cares if you are challenged by something that is 5 levels above you or 2 below. It is the quality of the encounter that matters, not some arbitrary numbering system. All games have their sweetspot of where characters have favorable chance of success vs an opponent of a specific level, be it equal level or +/- a number of levels. Judging one game vs another by those levels is meaningless.
To say WoW "loses" because of this is just plain dumb. If tomorrow blizzard changed every single NPC in the game to display as 10 levels higher than they are now and kept the game mechanics the exact same, would that somehow magically make it harder than the games you list? See what I mean.
Time is not a measurement of difficulty. Time is a factor of difficulty though. Is it more difficult to kill an orc 10 times than it is to kill it 20? No, each encounter is the same, just repeated. Requiring 50, 100 or 2093598235 doesn't make the base encounter one single bit more challenging. Yet again, you reduce the argument down to encounters. As far as I can tell, that is not the focus of this topic. It is not asking how each individual encounter is challenging in respect to other games. It is asking what, overall, makes this game easier. Therefore, you point is irrelevant, for, as I have said thrice now, I am not talking about encounters, I am talking about the level curve of the game. The mobs and fights in this respect have no significance. They are merely a means to an end. The same applies to death penalties. Losing no XP vs losing 50 levels doesn't make the gameplay more difficult. It might add a greater sense of danger, but that has zero effect on the actual play of winning or losing. Everyone has their thresh hold of what they will tolerate as far as a penalty for losing, but that doesn't make one game more difficult over another. Death penalties all boil down to how much time you must reinvest to recoup a loss. That does not factor into difficulty, just tolerance. XP loss interrupts the desired goal, making it more difficult to attain. If it makes it more difficult to attain, I would say it adds difficulty, no? Whether or not you will admit it, loss of gear does make it more difficult. If you lose your best breastplate, for example, you will find things have grown significantly more difficult. I don't see how you can deny that, unless, of course, you ignore it all together. In WoW, you lose nothing and if your item breaks it is extremely easy to repair it. Long story short, playing a game that requires more time doesn't make the game harder. Harder to put up with maybe, but not a greater challenge. Time spent does not represent ability needed. Difficulty is not an equation of skill. Skill, like time, is a factor, but it is not the sole factor. As I have said, difficulty is something tough to endure. Spending time building one's character tends to be difficult to endure. You do this even in WoW, it is just over gear, not level. Neither is level of the creature you fight. All encounters boil down to how a chance to win, regardless of the level number assigned to a NPC. Gauging simply by the number listed after a mobs name is falling prey to a false sense of danger. All games have a curve of success and then the devs assign random numbers to that curve which makes up the mobs levels. Who cares if you are challenged by something that is 5 levels above you or 2 below. It is the quality of the encounter that matters, not some arbitrary numbering system. All games have their sweetspot of where characters have favorable chance of success vs an opponent of a specific level, be it equal level or +/- a number of levels. Judging one game vs another by those levels is meaningless. The problem is, the chance of success in WoW tends to be a lot higher than other games I have played. One has to go over the top to challenge themselves. It has its share of losses, but it is not as frequent. To say WoW "loses" because of this is just plain dumb. If tomorrow blizzard changed every single NPC in the game to display as 10 levels higher than they are now and kept the game mechanics the exact same, would that somehow magically make it harder than the games you list? See what I mean. That is just silly. If they changed all the NPCs to display 10 levels higher than they actually are, then in order to receive a challenge I would have to fight enemies at least 10 levels higher, in effect making it easier =P Now if they changed their power to be 10 levels higher (but it still displayed the same level), that is another story. I would say yes, it would be vastly more difficult. You really aren't modifying your argument. You have yet to explain your definition of difficulty. It seems that your version of it depends entirely on encounters and how hard it was to dispatch an enemy. That is only one aspect, and I agree that WoW can have its fair share of tough mobs (never said otherwise). Unfortunately, my definition is not as narrow-minded. I consider separate categories of difficulty which factors in more than the quality of an encounter. Your take on it is highly limited.
All MMOs are just a series of encounters that combine to make an overall experience. Ignoring that just glosses over the reality of how they are played. If two encounters are relatively the same challenge in two different games then doing one 10 times doesn't make it any more difficult than a game the rewards just as much for 5.
You are confusing difficulty with repetition/time sinks. Lets for example just get rid of levels all together. Each game is just going out to hack and slash. Now, does it matter how many times you repeat the same activity over and over in either game? Is game A any more difficult because you spend 5 more hours doing the same thing? No. Does it take more skill or is it harder to kill 10 orcs than it does to kill 4?
Your confusion comes because you are counting how many times it takes to repeat an encounter between two units of measurement and then assuming it is more challanging (aka difficult) because of the extra cycles.
I don't know how else to explain it to you, but time spent does not make something a challenge. Spending more time doing the same things doesn't require one more ounce of reaction time, quick thinking or skill. It just requires more time. Time does not equate to difficulty in any way other than tedium. Everyone has their threshold of what they consider to little or to much time to accomplish tasks and much of this thread is confusing that with difficulty.
You still aren't looking beyond the encounters. You are right, it is repetitive. The encounters are not in any way more challenging, neither is the number of times you have to engage into them. This is not the point I am trying to get across.
Your problem is you are not looking at the effort involved to attain something. It takes more patience, time, and effort to make a level in another game. You have yet to debunk this, instead, you presume that difficulty only comes from the immediate challenge.
If you removed levels, as you suggest, then that would not be a characteristic to evaluate the difficulty. You would obviously have to look at something else. So, it is irrelevant because it is not present.
Since the games I have noted do in fact have levels, they can be evaluated on a scale of difficulty. I will repeat it: the encounters tend not to be any more or less difficult (it does vary from game to game though). The difficulty relies entirely on the amount of effort spent on the goal. The amount of effort comes from various things, especially time. Since, as we have already established, the encounters are repetitive, the difficulty of the mobs doesn't hold as much weight.
You refuse to comprehend the meaning of "hard". Time and time again you devalue it to simply individual encounters. This is simply not how it works.
I'll try again. It is NOT difficult to sit in a chair and repeat similar tasks over and over again. There is nothing harder about it no matter how long the duration is. Anyone can spend large quantities of time doing the same thing which makes it by nature not difficult. Many people choose not to do those types of things, not because they are to hard, but because they become tedious.
Comparing game A vs game B and saying game B is "hard" because it takes nothing more than extra time doing the same activities all of which offer about the same level of difficulty doesn't make game B harder. That is by the very definition tedious, not challenging.
If we take what you call hard and apply it to a level 1 character then requiring them to kill 5 billion rats to gain level 2 then that would be that hardest most challenging game ever made. Apply the same to crafting, combat, questing, etc. It doesn't matter what aspect you pick the end result is the same. It is the core game designs that make up difficulty and challenge, not arbitrary time measurements.
Really I do understand what people are trying to convey when they say it is easier to level in one game or harder to level in another. Everyone has their thresh hold of what they consider appropriate amounts of time to gain levels or whatever.
Edit: What do you think hard means? Why do you think MMOs are not just a series of smaller encounters that make up the whole?
I don't think you are being honest to yourself by ignoring the bulk of what gameplay is made up off and instead glossing over everything done to focus on the bottom line of just how long something took to complete as being the important factor.
You claim to understand it, but your posts do not prove it.
You seem to have a faulty definition of "hard", if you have one at all. If we rely on your view, nothing can be hard because the term is far too vague to evaluate anything as such. It would appear entirely subjective in your format.
You claim that anyone can put forth the time to complete a task. No one ever said one cannot accomplish it, the problem is it was too difficult for them to do it.
I will finish this by actually supporting my view.
Whether you call it hard, challenging, or difficult, the definition requires that the task at hand is demanding.
Based on the definition from a word document, this is what demanding means:
Effort-intensive:
Requiring a lot of time, attention, energy, or resources.
Oh look, it labels time as one of the elements that describes something that is demanding.
I would say patience does indeed link to the ability to tolerate these tedious actions, no?
There are other factors like skill, but skill varies so vastly that it cannot be easily estimated between players. You would have to assess the average skill needed to play the game. I cannot provide proof that WoW requires less skill than other games, but I would dare say it doesn't require as much. Unfortunately, I cannot argue it.
Tell me, what is your definition of "hard"?
I am done arguing with you. I have supported my view. I have remained true to myself, despite what you say. If you are determined to reside in ignorance, simply to justify this game, I cannot help you.
Where did you get 'demanding' from? Just because you can play 6 degrees of separation with a few terms does not make your point valid. You still don't say WHY spending more time makes a game more DIFFICULT, CHALLENGING or HARD. Why does it make another game easy?
According to your new definition, what extra resources, attention and energy are required to progress in a game that simply requires more time other than time itself?
Here are some merriam-webster definitions since you must have them, even though I think playing the dictionary game is dumb and waters down a discussion.
DIFFICULT
1: hard to do, make, or carry out :arduous <a difficult climb>2 a: hard to deal with, manage, or overcome <a difficult child> b: hard to understand :puzzling <difficult reading>
: tiresome because of length or dullness :boring <a tedious public ceremony>
Time Consuming
1 : using or taking up a great deal of time <time–consuming chores> 2 : wasteful of time <time–consuming tactics>
There is nothing challenging about pouring time into a game. The more time a company requires players to invest in order to progress the only thing that moves forward on a scale is the more people that will find the play tedious. Simply increasing the amount of time needed to do something does not increase difficulty, challenge or make the gameplay any harder. It just makes it longer.
Your whole point rests on the premise that it is somehow harder to kill orcs (or whatever) for 50 hours than it is for lets say 45. Is the 50th hour in any way shape or form harder than the very first hour or the tenth or the 45th? No.
Time is not a measurement of anything except tolerance.
That's irritating. The site went offline apparently when I posted. Might have been my connection, but I was still able to surf the net so I assume it was the site.
Anyway, I will give a brief summary of my primary points.
Your definitions are similar to the one I posted at the very beginning. it does not indicate whatsoever that time is not a factor. The definitions of those words are still vague but the definition of demanding clears things up (that is why I used it). Ask yourself what makes a task difficult. The definition of the word demanding actually describes elements of effort-intensive activities which are described as hard, difficult, and challenging.
Finally, the other terms you defined have nothing to do with this. You are trying to redirect the argument. I am not denying that these activities are tedious and time-consuming, in fact, it is the exact opposite. It seems that you are trying to imply that tedious and time-consuming activities cannot be difficult to achieve. You apply a lot of effort to tedious/time-consuming tasks you know.
Ok, now I am done arguing this... >.>
If I cannot convince you by now, I doubt I will be able to. Likewise, I will make it very clear that you are not convince me based on the argument you have presented so far. I suppose in the end we will have to agree to disagree.
So if it took 8X as long to level up in WOW, would that make the game more enjoyable? If you had to mindlessly grind most of the EXP of each level, how is that better? I'm guessing not a single person would find it more fun or say its difficult, but I bet people would say its tedious.
You cannot simply pick a synonym just because it mentions time in the definition and point to that as validity of your point of view. In fact the site you linked also lists the following as synonyms of demanding: backbreaking, exhausting, punishing, severe, taxing and testing. None of which back up your opinion and that is why I don't think pointing to a dictionary is proof of concept.
Anyhow, your premise relies on ignoring everything that makes up the entire gameplay of an MMO and simply reducing it to a measurement of time spent towards reaching a goal as if that somehow marks how difficult the task was and not the countless series of actions that progressed completion of that goal. This is absolutely inaccurate. For example I can stand in Alterac Valley in WoW for a very long period of time and do nothing other than drool on my keyboard and eventually I will leech enough honor points to get epic items. Is that hard? Is that challenging? Is that demanding? No, in fact compared to just about every other aspect typical MMO gameplay it is the easiest thing to do, because you cannot fail at it. It does take a long time, but also offers zero difficulty. On the other hand if I actively participate in the PvP, battle my enemies, destroy their outposts and kill their generals I will acquire epic items far far faster and in much LESS time. More challenge fighting enemies, more demanding to win, etc etc etc. That is why I say time in not a factor of difficulty, but instead it is a measure of a players endurance. It is very little more than that.
Spending more time does not make something harder to accomplish. It may make it harder to endure or harder to tolerate which will eliminate more people the longer the task gets, but not because the actual tasks got harder or more difficult.
I understand you think spending more time repeating something somehow adds difficulty, but I have yet to see you explain why it does. What changes? What new obstacles are introduced? How does it actually apply to gameplay? Why is the amount of time spent online more important than the actual activities done during that time?
Like someone else mentioned, if World of Warcraft suddenly increased the amount of experience required to gain a level from 5,000*next_level to 5,000,000,000,000*next_level, would everyone suddenly start proclaiming WoW to be super hard and challenging? I don't think those are the words people would use do you?
Daffid - You are missing the point, You are breaking it so far down that you cannot compare them correctly.
Take EQ1 and WoW. Just random hack and slash games. Both have levels, both take time to master, both take time to get to the end game. See if you compare it like that then you see no difference.
But EQ1 takes more skill and problem solving then WoW does, which makes WoW easier then EQ1.
A quest in WoW tells you to kill 10 orcs in the field to the southwest near the lake. Then on the mini map it shows you were to go. It takes no skill, no problem solving, nothing but time to go complete this quest.
A quest in EQ1 tells you to kill 10 orcs. That is it, you have to find the orcs, you dont get any hints on the locations, no dot on the mini map, nothing. It takes skill to figure out what Orcs the NPC wants, it takes problem solving to find the orcs and it takes time.
See two quest that are very close and if we only say both quest tell you to kill 10 orcs, then you cannot compare them correctly but when we put in context of how the quests are delivered we can now compare the two quest.
As someone that played EQ1 for over 5 years in a full time raiding guild, I can tell you that I did not see all the content in EQ. I also played WoW for 1.5 years in a full time raiding guild, I can tell you that I did everything that game had to offer during that 1.5 years.
Another example that I can use is Death.
What happens when you die in WoW? You lose some money, not even enough to hurt at all at any level.. dont tell me other wise, I was a raid tank, I had the mose expensive repairs after ever raid and they never made a dent in my gold. I was a Main Tank, I took all the damage.
What happens when you die in EQ1? You lose experince, you have to travel back to your corpse to get your items, you have to fight you way back to your corpse. It could cost you alot of time and money.
So EQ1's death hurts more which in turn makes the players try that much harder to learn to use everything in their power not to die. Death hurt, Death made you mad, it pissed you off, you made sure everyone knew how to play their charater correctly or they would simple not get a group.
In WoW, people use death as an easy way to travel, Nobody fears death, Death is a small bump in the road, nothing more. Dieing means so little that nobody has to learn to play correctly.
WoW is easy because their is no RISK, NON. You dont risk anything at all but you get great rewards which makes the game easy. EQ1 is hard, their is RISK, TONS OF RISK. The more you risk, the better the rewards. WoW has no risk but has better rewards.
Risk vs Reward is how you judge if a game is easy or not. Diablo 2 has a hardcore mode, if you die one time, that charater is finished for ever, that is alot of risk, but Hardcore mode has the best drops in the game. Risk vs Reward. Dont tell me that nobody plays on the Hardcore servers either because you are wrong, the Hardcore servers are sometimes the most populated.
Honestly in EQ1, there were many a times that someone got an invite to a PUG (Pick up group) and others in the group left the group because the guy that got invited was a bad player and everyone knew it. I rarely saw this in WoW. WoW anyone can master any class, yes some do a better job but in WoW its all about time, in EQ1 it takes skill to master any class. Take Wizards and Druids with quad kiting, not anyone can just quad kite, even after as much time as you want to take, you may never be able to quad kite, but there are players that can quad kite with no effort at all because they have skill.
Actually Tdogskal I agree with much of what you say. EQ was a hard game based on a few of its design choices. You point out aspects of the game that are challenges and difficulties to overcome. You don't say it was hard because it takes longer to level or something trivial like that. Travel for example used to be very long and tedious, but it was also difficult, because there was danger everywhere. My whole point is that it is the little things when all combined that sum up a games degree of difficulty and not simply just measuring how long all those things take.
I don't think the group play[dungeons] were any harder than the group play in WoW and I disagree that risk makes a game more challenging. Some people like huge risks some don't, but it has no effect on how challenging those puzzles, combats and tradeskills are except to put bigger time sinks on failure. Death penalties are just different ways to dress up time sinks really. More risk gives more of a sense of danger and that is a great motivator to people, but that doesn't mean people don't care about failing in other games. Let me ask you a question about the hardcore diablo servers. Are the monsters tougher? Do you get better equipment for killing the same level monsters? etc etc. It isn't any harder though. That is like saying Blackjack is more difficult when you bet 5 million dollars than it is when you bet $10 dollars. Same game, same degree of difficulty the only difference is the thrill in a bigger risk. Some people love thrill and more power to them, nothing wrong with it.
I also played EQ in a very high end raid guild for several of the early years and I saw every bit of content that was released long before the next expansion pack was released. Likewise there are plenty of people who will not see much of what WoW has to offer high end. I'm sure there are plenty of people who fall into both categories in every MMO. Some see all the content and some don't. Some will master the game and some won't. Playing an MMO isn't exactly rocket science.
What I don't agree with is that time, just for the sake of extra time spent makes a game any harder.
I have played a lot of MUDs/MUSHs/MOOs/MMOs/MMORPGs over the years and of all that I have played WoW was the easiest to learn, easiest to master, easiest crafting, and required the least amount to tactical/strategic thinking/skill. So, in comparison to all the other games I have played, WoW is easy.
I have played a lot of MUDs/MUSHs/MOOs/MMOs/MMORPGs over the years and of all that I have played WoW was the easiest to learn, easiest to master, easiest crafting, and required the least amount to tactical/strategic thinking/skill. So, in comparison to all the other games I have played, WoW is easy.
Soloing yes. It is quite easy to JUST soloing, playing at the bare minimum of effort, ignoring all group content. It was by design.
However, ho read an FAQ on any of the high end bosses and compare them to FAQs to a boss in EQ, UO, AC, COH, LOTR and a whole bunch of other MMOs. Not even comparable. Soloing your way to 70 or tagging along on a raid doing very little, does not mean you mastered the game. Sitting doing nothing in AV doesn't mean you know how to PvP. The guys who wrote the FAQs and the teams at the top of the arena ladders are the masters. The rest of us are all scrubs=)
People always confuse difficulty with tedium, lousy UIs or lack of info, or shotty unintuitive game mechanics. I agree that games that are badly designed are harder to play, but NOT in a good way.
I have played a lot of MUDs/MUSHs/MOOs/MMOs/MMORPGs over the years and of all that I have played WoW was the easiest to learn, easiest to master, easiest crafting, and required the least amount to tactical/strategic thinking/skill. So, in comparison to all the other games I have played, WoW is easy.
Soloing yes. It is quite easy to JUST soloing, playing at the bare minimum of effort, ignoring all group content. It was by design.
However, ho read an FAQ on any of the high end bosses and compare them to FAQs to a boss in EQ, UO, AC, COH, LOTR and a whole bunch of other MMOs. Not even comparable. Soloing your way to 70 or tagging along on a raid doing very little, does not mean you mastered the game. Sitting doing nothing in AV doesn't mean you know how to PvP. The guys who wrote the FAQs and the teams at the top of the arena ladders are the masters. The rest of us are all scrubs=)
People always confuse difficulty with tedium, lousy UIs or lack of info, or shotty unintuitive game mechanics. I agree that games that are badly designed are harder to play, but NOT in a good way.
Since I was talking about ALL aspects of WoW, not just soloing, you seem to be making a strawman arguement. I include ALL aspects of the game, solo, group, raid, crafting, etc...
I have played a lot of MUDs/MUSHs/MOOs/MMOs/MMORPGs over the years and of all that I have played WoW was the easiest to learn, easiest to master, easiest crafting, and required the least amount to tactical/strategic thinking/skill. So, in comparison to all the other games I have played, WoW is easy.
Soloing yes. It is quite easy to JUST soloing, playing at the bare minimum of effort, ignoring all group content. It was by design.
However, ho read an FAQ on any of the high end bosses and compare them to FAQs to a boss in EQ, UO, AC, COH, LOTR and a whole bunch of other MMOs. Not even comparable. Soloing your way to 70 or tagging along on a raid doing very little, does not mean you mastered the game. Sitting doing nothing in AV doesn't mean you know how to PvP. The guys who wrote the FAQs and the teams at the top of the arena ladders are the masters. The rest of us are all scrubs=)
People always confuse difficulty with tedium, lousy UIs or lack of info, or shotty unintuitive game mechanics. I agree that games that are badly designed are harder to play, but NOT in a good way.
Since I was talking about ALL aspects of WoW, not just soloing, you seem to be making a strawman arguement. I include ALL aspects of the game, solo, group, raid, crafting, etc... WoW is still the easier game, in comparision.
A heavy death penalty that requires long downtime any having to grind 100X more EXP does not make a game more difficult. Thats all EQ or AC had. UO wasn't difficult at all. Leveling up skills was actually the most simplistic form of gameplay there was. You could level up without ever being in any danger. There were no difficult encounters in UO that couldn't be easily trivialized by bringing a few extra people anyway.
PLease show everyone an FAQ describing multiple encounters in any MMO that surpasses some of the more difficult and complex raid encounters in WOW. FFXI is about the only one. The only thing that might make other MMOs more difficult is time commitment. But time commitment and waiting around is not difficulty. As far as strategy and tactics in the group game, WOW is equal to or surpasses just about everything out there. Dungeons on FARM status do not count. The FAQs are facts about WOW complexity. They can't be argued over. They are difficult to figure out no matter how you slice it.
Crafting?? It was never DIFFICULT to craft anything in EQ or UO or AC or even Eve unless you consider failed roles of the dice, waiting around or travel time something hard. Crafting in those games were the same as WOW. Gather materials and press a few buttons. A failure rate doesn't make the act difficult. It makes it redious. It means doing it over and over again. Crafting in WOW is actually pretty darn difficult when you factor in the effort it takes to obtain some of the rarer materials. Pressing a few buttons isn't difficult but why should it be? TEDIOUS gameplay isn't exactly difficult gameplay unless you consider tolerating the game play as something hard. I find it difficult to enjoy the crafting in most MMOs because its a tedious bore. WOW's crafting is enjoyable. It wasn't hard to craft in other MMOs. It was BOOOOring.
PvP?? Same thing. Hell, in UO, PKing people was freakin simple. Exploit away. AC, same thing. How many people win consistently in the arenas in WOW? It ain't sitting there farming Rep like in AV.
I guess a lot of MMOs are hard because its damn hard to find most of them enjoyable. SO, yes you win. WOW is very easy to enjoy. Thank god=)
WoW is the most spoonfed MMO that's ever existed. There's not much of a death penalty. Everything is grinds and questing. It's targeted at soccer moms and 10 year olds alike.
It's the easiest, not just easy.
So what in your opinion makes EVERY other game harder? I just don't see it to be honest.
A stiffer death penalty doesn't make the combat that took place before your death one bit more challenging. It just makes it more tedious.
Removing quests just makes leveling boring and/or tedious. Sitting in the same spot grinding mobs to level isn't exactly difficult.
There is a world of difference between tedious game mechanics and difficult gameplay. I've played a lot of games in my online time and none really stick out as difficult in comparison to others. I've seen to many game that substitute long boring mechanics in place of entertaining gameplay that draws a player in.
Actually a death penalty adds a bit of thrill to the fight rather then "oh big deal, I'll just suicide and run back to my body over and over again."
When you step into WoW you are right away directed on where to go and what to do.
Crafting is point and click this and run up to a node that shown to you on a map.
WoW is a good game of course and entertaining. But it is ridiculously easy and spoonfed.
I will say that wow is ez to learn, hard to master. And by master I mean get the best gear and UI mods. After that there is a small skill requirment but gear and mods will win.
I think that wow glider is the best example of this.
I have played a lot of MUDs/MUSHs/MOOs/MMOs/MMORPGs over the years and of all that I have played WoW was the easiest to learn, easiest to master, easiest crafting, and required the least amount to tactical/strategic thinking/skill. So, in comparison to all the other games I have played, WoW is easy.
Soloing yes. It is quite easy to JUST soloing, playing at the bare minimum of effort, ignoring all group content. It was by design.
However, ho read an FAQ on any of the high end bosses and compare them to FAQs to a boss in EQ, UO, AC, COH, LOTR and a whole bunch of other MMOs. Not even comparable. Soloing your way to 70 or tagging along on a raid doing very little, does not mean you mastered the game. Sitting doing nothing in AV doesn't mean you know how to PvP. The guys who wrote the FAQs and the teams at the top of the arena ladders are the masters. The rest of us are all scrubs=)
People always confuse difficulty with tedium, lousy UIs or lack of info, or shotty unintuitive game mechanics. I agree that games that are badly designed are harder to play, but NOT in a good way.
Since I was talking about ALL aspects of WoW, not just soloing, you seem to be making a strawman arguement. I include ALL aspects of the game, solo, group, raid, crafting, etc... WoW is still the easier game, in comparision.
A heavy death penalty that requires long downtime any having to grind 100X more EXP does not make a game more difficult. Thats all EQ or AC had. UO wasn't difficult at all. Leveling up skills was actually the most simplistic form of gameplay there was. You could level up without ever being in any danger. There were no difficult encounters in UO that couldn't be easily trivialized by bringing a few extra people anyway.
PLease show everyone an FAQ describing multiple encounters in any MMO that surpasses some of the more difficult and complex raid encounters in WOW. FFXI is about the only one. The only thing that might make other MMOs more difficult is time commitment. But time commitment and waiting around is not difficulty. As far as strategy and tactics in the group game, WOW is equal to or surpasses just about everything out there. Dungeons on FARM status do not count. The FAQs are facts about WOW complexity. They can't be argued over. They are difficult to figure out no matter how you slice it.
Crafting?? It was never DIFFICULT to craft anything in EQ or UO or AC or even Eve unless you consider failed roles of the dice, waiting around or travel time something hard. Crafting in those games were the same as WOW. Gather materials and press a few buttons. A failure rate doesn't make the act difficult. It makes it redious. It means doing it over and over again. Crafting in WOW is actually pretty darn difficult when you factor in the effort it takes to obtain some of the rarer materials. Pressing a few buttons isn't difficult but why should it be? TEDIOUS gameplay isn't exactly difficult gameplay unless you consider tolerating the game play as something hard. I find it difficult to enjoy the crafting in most MMOs because its a tedious bore. WOW's crafting is enjoyable. It wasn't hard to craft in other MMOs. It was BOOOOring.
PvP?? Same thing. Hell, in UO, PKing people was freakin simple. Exploit away. AC, same thing. How many people win consistently in the arenas in WOW? It ain't sitting there farming Rep like in AV.
I guess a lot of MMOs are hard because its damn hard to find most of them enjoyable. SO, yes you win. WOW is very easy to enjoy. Thank god=)
Josher, if you are going to quote my posts, you might try responding to my points rather than having an agruement with yourself.
P.S. When compared to other games I have played, WoW is still the easiest to learn and master. Also, because WoW is so simple to learn and master, it is also easy to quickly out grow.
Seems to me, Josher is the only one MAKING points in this argument. Taliasin is tossing out generalizations with no specifics.
And yes, I agree with Josher. The gameplay in WoW is at least as challenging as other games. They have removed tedium and timesinks -- not the same as "dumbing it down."
WoW is the most spoonfed MMO that's ever existed. There's not much of a death penalty. Everything is grinds and questing. It's targeted at soccer moms and 10 year olds alike.
It's the easiest, not just easy.
So what in your opinion makes EVERY other game harder? I just don't see it to be honest.
A stiffer death penalty doesn't make the combat that took place before your death one bit more challenging. It just makes it more tedious.
Removing quests just makes leveling boring and/or tedious. Sitting in the same spot grinding mobs to level isn't exactly difficult.
There is a world of difference between tedious game mechanics and difficult gameplay. I've played a lot of games in my online time and none really stick out as difficult in comparison to others. I've seen to many game that substitute long boring mechanics in place of entertaining gameplay that draws a player in.
Actually a death penalty adds a bit of thrill to the fight rather then "oh big deal, I'll just suicide and run back to my body over and over again."
When you step into WoW you are right away directed on where to go and what to do.
Crafting is point and click this and run up to a node that shown to you on a map.
WoW is a good game of course and entertaining. But it is ridiculously easy and spoonfed.
Quests told you where to go in DAOC long before WoW was even a rumor. Crafting as you described it is almost exactly the same in every fantasy MMO out. I will even go further to say that combat mechanics have not changed significantly in ten years.
Why is WoW so much easier than these other games? I just cannot buy into that because the quests do the same thing other games have been doing for years, the crafting is pretty much the same and combat has not changed since EQ.
With very few exceptions I cannot honestly say that the mechanics in any MMO has challenged me since UO/EQ years. I hear all these people talk about how easy WoW is, but I never hear compared to what? I've tried the other games and they are no more difficult save for dealing with bad game design or unnecessary time sinks in place of real content. There are a few things here and there, but the converse it just as true.
Just off the top of my head, crafting in SWG was beyond excellent with many intricate challenges from managing resource inventory and quality, competing with other merchants and actually knowing how to make quality items. WoW dugeons and raids have been top notch compared to anything in a long long time. Well written, entertaining and challenging. PvP in Guild Wars and to a lesser extent SWG (minus the completely broken system), because there was some mystery as to what skills your opponent could use.
Honestly I find most of this easy/hard talk to be deceptive and dishonest. Is there really a fantasy MMO in the last half dozen years that has actually been hard? People like to spew that WoW is so easy, but what other game is it being compared to that is so hard, timesinks aside I can't think of one that offers any real challenge that isn't cookie cutter to the next. As far as I can tell the whole fantasy market has just been a whole lot of the same thing over and over. I don't understand why people can suddenly find that harder than it already was.
Comments
First, let us define hard.
One can define it as something difficult to endure.
I would say most MMOGs are pretty easy to learn, often harder to master. I don't think that is exactly what people mean when they say WoW is easy though.
It has been established from earlier posters: levelling in WoW is easy. Some have tried to debunk it by saying a steeper levelling curve does not provide difficulty. I will be blunt. You are wrong.
Since it has been mentioned many times, FFXI is quite a bit more difficult to level than WoW. It absolutely requires a group and more skill to level. Yes, it requires more skill. The party has to know its roll and how to operate. I have seen players in WoW that are not effective at endgame because they did not have to learn there class during the levelling process.
Furthermore, I would say that it is hard to endure a steeper levelling curve than it is to endure a quick one. If you look at AO or AC (from their early days at least), in the time it takes me to level from 1-70 on WoW, I would probably only be somewhere in the 50-80 range in the other games (at least AC, I didn't play AO much). AC could literally take months of quite a bit of playing to get even remotely high in level. There are not just 70 levels though, there were 126 (It is actually higher now). This is very difficult to attain. If I recall, a great deal of the xp that needs to be gained is after level 100-110.
You are deluding yourself if you think this is just as easy. I am not talking about the enemies you had to face to get to 70. We are not talking about combat at all. Likewise, we are not talking about the method required (Questing vs. grinding). We are talking about the levelling curve, which is higher in all three of the games named.
This is only one aspect. Currency in FFXI is also very difficult. Armor is not easily acquired like in WoW. This creates a situation difficult to endure.
Of course, there is also the death penalty. Again, we are not talking about the battle that took place that caused you to die. That might be just as difficult as it is in other games. WoW's DP is easy to endure. It is an inconvenient walk back to your corpse coupled with diminishing armor and a small fine of easy-to-earn money.
In AC, you not only had to run back to your body, you had to do it while alive (and thus capable of dying again). You always get vitae, which reduces stats, and you lose items and money on your corpse. This is very hard to endure. You may spend a night just trying to retrieve it. This is challenging, especially considering the consequences if you do not (loss of items and money). In addition, AC loot is random. A great piece is not gauranteed. Unlike WoW, grinding the same mob may not get you that epic you have been waiting for. Instead, in AC, it drops and you cherish the mere fact that you were lucky enough to get an item so great (and that just about no one else has), and thus you wish to hold onto it at the cost of almost anything.
This also makes PvP harder, as people can loot your corpse. Go play on the Darktide server and tell me it is just as easy as WoW's PvP. Keep in mind, WoW's PvP is just a grind. You lose nothing but you eventually can gain everything. This is true even in arena, but at least arena factors in player's skill for success. It is not, of course, required. You can get the gear either way, it is just slow if you are less skilled.
Really, I think the main problem with WoW, and what makes it so easy, is the minimal consequences. You can say that just makes it longer and doesn't help the casual at all. I believe that is the point of being harder though. Some of you seem to be ignoring the concept of difficulty and seem to define it as the difficulty of a fight. It is not just limited to battle...
Taking longer to level doesn't make a game more "difficult".
Taking longer to get an item doesn't make the gameplay more challenging.
Requiring a group to level doesn't make a the game mechanics any more engaging than a game the offers both group and solo options to level.
All those things are just measures of time to reach a certain point in a game and none of which is more difficult than the next. I've played many MMOs and the group mechanics are always similar enough that it can be picked up in half an hour or so if you have any MMO experience. If someone solos to level cap and never groups of course they won't have any experience to draw on and of course will have problems adjusting. However that is not something that is unique to WoW. I've played many games where that exact thing happens all the time. For example halfing druids in everquest were famous for being idiots in a dungeon because most of them spent 45 levels kiting dwarves around in butcherblock or some other zone.
I can't for the life of me think of a single sword and elf game out that is more difficult than the next. They all use the same basic formula of tank, heal and dps. Trying to make one game more elite than another because it takes longer to accomplish something based solely on the amount of time required isn't a solid statement. The same goes for how harsh punishments are for failures. Sure it might make it more tedious to lose at something, but it does not make the encounter that lead up to defeat one single bit more challenging. There is no difference in that respect between no death penalty and losing all your items since it is all after the fact of the events that lead up to the death. All that it affects is how much set back a person prefers in their MMO of choice when they do lose to an encounter. Neither is more difficult than the next except the amount of time needed to recover.
Forcing people to group to gain levels doesn't make a game hard, it just restricts playstyle options.
Requiring someone to take 10 years to reach max level doesn't make all those encounters along the way any more difficult in the slightest. It just takes more of them.
I will agree that there are some classes in some games that can trivialize any challenge the game has to offer. An example would be fire/fire tankers the first few months of COH or something similar. All games have their balance issues though.
You have essentially proved my point.
You reduce difficulties to merely combat alone. You, like many others here, do not seem to understand what "hard" means. It is a difficult task. Time and effort are both factors of this.
It is a far more difficult task to reach the level cap in certain other games. It is longer and requires more effort. That makes it harder.
A death penalty provides a consequent, making the task or situation more difficult than it previously was.
Do not twist the meaning to how hard the battle was for that is not the only element to game difficulty.
If we simply talk about the enemies that we face, WoW loses here too. I have to face something four levels higher than me in order to challenge my character. In FFXI, I very well may die against something of equal caliber. Respectively to level, that would make FFXI harder in general combat. Of course, you are required to group to level, that does not take away the fact that the battles are in fact harder.
WoW is not the worst offender in that respect. Returning to Asheron's Call, I can take enemies over 30 levels higher than me if I am properly buffed. Respectively to level, that would make AC enemies far weaker than FFXI.
Though, I believe the game is easy, I also don't participate in some of the content. I would say raiding may be quite hard in WoW. Each component has to be taken individually because it varies between games. I would not say WoW as a whole is easy, just many aspects of it are easy.
Time is not a measurement of difficulty.
Is it more difficult to kill an orc 10 times than it is to kill it 20? No, each encounter is the same, just repeated. Requiring 50, 100 or 2093598235 doesn't make the base encounter one single bit more challenging.
The same applies to death penalties. Losing no XP vs losing 50 levels doesn't make the gameplay more difficult. It might add a greater sense of danger, but that has zero effect on the actual play of winning or losing. Everyone has their thresh hold of what they will tolerate as far as a penalty for losing, but that doesn't make one game more difficult over another. Death penalties all boil down to how much time you must reinvest to recoup a loss. That does not factor into difficulty, just tolerance.
Long story short, playing a game that requires more time doesn't make the game harder. Harder to put up with maybe, but not a greater challenge. Time spent does not represent ability needed.
Neither is level of the creature you fight. All encounters boil down to how a chance to win, regardless of the level number assigned to a NPC. Gauging simply by the number listed after a mobs name is falling prey to a false sense of danger. All games have a curve of success and then the devs assign random numbers to that curve which makes up the mobs levels. Who cares if you are challenged by something that is 5 levels above you or 2 below. It is the quality of the encounter that matters, not some arbitrary numbering system. All games have their sweetspot of where characters have favorable chance of success vs an opponent of a specific level, be it equal level or +/- a number of levels. Judging one game vs another by those levels is meaningless.
To say WoW "loses" because of this is just plain dumb. If tomorrow blizzard changed every single NPC in the game to display as 10 levels higher than they are now and kept the game mechanics the exact same, would that somehow magically make it harder than the games you list? See what I mean.
All MMOs are just a series of encounters that combine to make an overall experience. Ignoring that just glosses over the reality of how they are played. If two encounters are relatively the same challenge in two different games then doing one 10 times doesn't make it any more difficult than a game the rewards just as much for 5.
You are confusing difficulty with repetition/time sinks. Lets for example just get rid of levels all together. Each game is just going out to hack and slash. Now, does it matter how many times you repeat the same activity over and over in either game? Is game A any more difficult because you spend 5 more hours doing the same thing? No. Does it take more skill or is it harder to kill 10 orcs than it does to kill 4?
Your confusion comes because you are counting how many times it takes to repeat an encounter between two units of measurement and then assuming it is more challanging (aka difficult) because of the extra cycles.
I don't know how else to explain it to you, but time spent does not make something a challenge. Spending more time doing the same things doesn't require one more ounce of reaction time, quick thinking or skill. It just requires more time. Time does not equate to difficulty in any way other than tedium. Everyone has their threshold of what they consider to little or to much time to accomplish tasks and much of this thread is confusing that with difficulty.
brilliant post Daffid, I completely agree
You still aren't looking beyond the encounters. You are right, it is repetitive. The encounters are not in any way more challenging, neither is the number of times you have to engage into them. This is not the point I am trying to get across.
Your problem is you are not looking at the effort involved to attain something. It takes more patience, time, and effort to make a level in another game. You have yet to debunk this, instead, you presume that difficulty only comes from the immediate challenge.
If you removed levels, as you suggest, then that would not be a characteristic to evaluate the difficulty. You would obviously have to look at something else. So, it is irrelevant because it is not present.
Since the games I have noted do in fact have levels, they can be evaluated on a scale of difficulty. I will repeat it: the encounters tend not to be any more or less difficult (it does vary from game to game though). The difficulty relies entirely on the amount of effort spent on the goal. The amount of effort comes from various things, especially time. Since, as we have already established, the encounters are repetitive, the difficulty of the mobs doesn't hold as much weight.
You refuse to comprehend the meaning of "hard". Time and time again you devalue it to simply individual encounters. This is simply not how it works.
I'll try again. It is NOT difficult to sit in a chair and repeat similar tasks over and over again. There is nothing harder about it no matter how long the duration is. Anyone can spend large quantities of time doing the same thing which makes it by nature not difficult. Many people choose not to do those types of things, not because they are to hard, but because they become tedious.
Comparing game A vs game B and saying game B is "hard" because it takes nothing more than extra time doing the same activities all of which offer about the same level of difficulty doesn't make game B harder. That is by the very definition tedious, not challenging.
If we take what you call hard and apply it to a level 1 character then requiring them to kill 5 billion rats to gain level 2 then that would be that hardest most challenging game ever made. Apply the same to crafting, combat, questing, etc. It doesn't matter what aspect you pick the end result is the same. It is the core game designs that make up difficulty and challenge, not arbitrary time measurements.
Really I do understand what people are trying to convey when they say it is easier to level in one game or harder to level in another. Everyone has their thresh hold of what they consider appropriate amounts of time to gain levels or whatever.
Edit: What do you think hard means? Why do you think MMOs are not just a series of smaller encounters that make up the whole?
I don't think you are being honest to yourself by ignoring the bulk of what gameplay is made up off and instead glossing over everything done to focus on the bottom line of just how long something took to complete as being the important factor.
You claim to understand it, but your posts do not prove it.
You seem to have a faulty definition of "hard", if you have one at all. If we rely on your view, nothing can be hard because the term is far too vague to evaluate anything as such. It would appear entirely subjective in your format.
You claim that anyone can put forth the time to complete a task. No one ever said one cannot accomplish it, the problem is it was too difficult for them to do it.
I will finish this by actually supporting my view.
Whether you call it hard, challenging, or difficult, the definition requires that the task at hand is demanding.
Based on the definition from a word document, this is what demanding means:
Effort-intensive:
Requiring a lot of time, attention, energy, or resources.
Oh look, it labels time as one of the elements that describes something that is demanding.
Here is an actual website definition:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&defl=en&q=define:demanding&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title
http://www.yourdictionary.com/demanding
Both sources cite patience as a characteristic required to deal with something demanding.
Here is a link to what patience means:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&defl=en&q=define:patience&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title
I would say patience does indeed link to the ability to tolerate these tedious actions, no?
There are other factors like skill, but skill varies so vastly that it cannot be easily estimated between players. You would have to assess the average skill needed to play the game. I cannot provide proof that WoW requires less skill than other games, but I would dare say it doesn't require as much. Unfortunately, I cannot argue it.
Tell me, what is your definition of "hard"?
I am done arguing with you. I have supported my view. I have remained true to myself, despite what you say. If you are determined to reside in ignorance, simply to justify this game, I cannot help you.
Where did you get 'demanding' from? Just because you can play 6 degrees of separation with a few terms does not make your point valid. You still don't say WHY spending more time makes a game more DIFFICULT, CHALLENGING or HARD. Why does it make another game easy?
According to your new definition, what extra resources, attention and energy are required to progress in a game that simply requires more time other than time itself?
Here are some merriam-webster definitions since you must have them, even though I think playing the dictionary game is dumb and waters down a discussion.
DIFFICULT
synonyms see hard
HARD
10 a (1): difficult to accomplish or resolve : troublesome
CHALLENGING
1 : arousing competitive interest, thought, or action <a challenging course of study> 2 : invitingly provocative : fascinating <a challenging personality>
TEDIOUS
Time Consuming
There is nothing challenging about pouring time into a game. The more time a company requires players to invest in order to progress the only thing that moves forward on a scale is the more people that will find the play tedious. Simply increasing the amount of time needed to do something does not increase difficulty, challenge or make the gameplay any harder. It just makes it longer.
Your whole point rests on the premise that it is somehow harder to kill orcs (or whatever) for 50 hours than it is for lets say 45. Is the 50th hour in any way shape or form harder than the very first hour or the tenth or the 45th? No.
Time is not a measurement of anything except tolerance.
That's irritating. The site went offline apparently when I posted. Might have been my connection, but I was still able to surf the net so I assume it was the site.
Anyway, I will give a brief summary of my primary points.
First, demanding is a synonym of these words.
http://www.mijnwoordenboek.nl/EN/synonyms/demanding
Your definitions are similar to the one I posted at the very beginning. it does not indicate whatsoever that time is not a factor. The definitions of those words are still vague but the definition of demanding clears things up (that is why I used it). Ask yourself what makes a task difficult. The definition of the word demanding actually describes elements of effort-intensive activities which are described as hard, difficult, and challenging.
Finally, the other terms you defined have nothing to do with this. You are trying to redirect the argument. I am not denying that these activities are tedious and time-consuming, in fact, it is the exact opposite. It seems that you are trying to imply that tedious and time-consuming activities cannot be difficult to achieve. You apply a lot of effort to tedious/time-consuming tasks you know.
Ok, now I am done arguing this... >.>
If I cannot convince you by now, I doubt I will be able to. Likewise, I will make it very clear that you are not convince me based on the argument you have presented so far. I suppose in the end we will have to agree to disagree.
So if it took 8X as long to level up in WOW, would that make the game more enjoyable? If you had to mindlessly grind most of the EXP of each level, how is that better? I'm guessing not a single person would find it more fun or say its difficult, but I bet people would say its tedious.
You cannot simply pick a synonym just because it mentions time in the definition and point to that as validity of your point of view. In fact the site you linked also lists the following as synonyms of demanding: backbreaking, exhausting, punishing, severe, taxing and testing. None of which back up your opinion and that is why I don't think pointing to a dictionary is proof of concept.
Anyhow, your premise relies on ignoring everything that makes up the entire gameplay of an MMO and simply reducing it to a measurement of time spent towards reaching a goal as if that somehow marks how difficult the task was and not the countless series of actions that progressed completion of that goal. This is absolutely inaccurate. For example I can stand in Alterac Valley in WoW for a very long period of time and do nothing other than drool on my keyboard and eventually I will leech enough honor points to get epic items. Is that hard? Is that challenging? Is that demanding? No, in fact compared to just about every other aspect typical MMO gameplay it is the easiest thing to do, because you cannot fail at it. It does take a long time, but also offers zero difficulty. On the other hand if I actively participate in the PvP, battle my enemies, destroy their outposts and kill their generals I will acquire epic items far far faster and in much LESS time. More challenge fighting enemies, more demanding to win, etc etc etc. That is why I say time in not a factor of difficulty, but instead it is a measure of a players endurance. It is very little more than that.
Spending more time does not make something harder to accomplish. It may make it harder to endure or harder to tolerate which will eliminate more people the longer the task gets, but not because the actual tasks got harder or more difficult.
I understand you think spending more time repeating something somehow adds difficulty, but I have yet to see you explain why it does. What changes? What new obstacles are introduced? How does it actually apply to gameplay? Why is the amount of time spent online more important than the actual activities done during that time?
Like someone else mentioned, if World of Warcraft suddenly increased the amount of experience required to gain a level from 5,000*next_level to 5,000,000,000,000*next_level, would everyone suddenly start proclaiming WoW to be super hard and challenging? I don't think those are the words people would use do you?
Daffid - You are missing the point, You are breaking it so far down that you cannot compare them correctly.
Take EQ1 and WoW. Just random hack and slash games. Both have levels, both take time to master, both take time to get to the end game. See if you compare it like that then you see no difference.
But EQ1 takes more skill and problem solving then WoW does, which makes WoW easier then EQ1.
A quest in WoW tells you to kill 10 orcs in the field to the southwest near the lake. Then on the mini map it shows you were to go. It takes no skill, no problem solving, nothing but time to go complete this quest.
A quest in EQ1 tells you to kill 10 orcs. That is it, you have to find the orcs, you dont get any hints on the locations, no dot on the mini map, nothing. It takes skill to figure out what Orcs the NPC wants, it takes problem solving to find the orcs and it takes time.
See two quest that are very close and if we only say both quest tell you to kill 10 orcs, then you cannot compare them correctly but when we put in context of how the quests are delivered we can now compare the two quest.
As someone that played EQ1 for over 5 years in a full time raiding guild, I can tell you that I did not see all the content in EQ. I also played WoW for 1.5 years in a full time raiding guild, I can tell you that I did everything that game had to offer during that 1.5 years.
Another example that I can use is Death.
What happens when you die in WoW? You lose some money, not even enough to hurt at all at any level.. dont tell me other wise, I was a raid tank, I had the mose expensive repairs after ever raid and they never made a dent in my gold. I was a Main Tank, I took all the damage.
What happens when you die in EQ1? You lose experince, you have to travel back to your corpse to get your items, you have to fight you way back to your corpse. It could cost you alot of time and money.
So EQ1's death hurts more which in turn makes the players try that much harder to learn to use everything in their power not to die. Death hurt, Death made you mad, it pissed you off, you made sure everyone knew how to play their charater correctly or they would simple not get a group.
In WoW, people use death as an easy way to travel, Nobody fears death, Death is a small bump in the road, nothing more. Dieing means so little that nobody has to learn to play correctly.
WoW is easy because their is no RISK, NON. You dont risk anything at all but you get great rewards which makes the game easy. EQ1 is hard, their is RISK, TONS OF RISK. The more you risk, the better the rewards. WoW has no risk but has better rewards.
Risk vs Reward is how you judge if a game is easy or not. Diablo 2 has a hardcore mode, if you die one time, that charater is finished for ever, that is alot of risk, but Hardcore mode has the best drops in the game. Risk vs Reward. Dont tell me that nobody plays on the Hardcore servers either because you are wrong, the Hardcore servers are sometimes the most populated.
Honestly in EQ1, there were many a times that someone got an invite to a PUG (Pick up group) and others in the group left the group because the guy that got invited was a bad player and everyone knew it. I rarely saw this in WoW. WoW anyone can master any class, yes some do a better job but in WoW its all about time, in EQ1 it takes skill to master any class. Take Wizards and Druids with quad kiting, not anyone can just quad kite, even after as much time as you want to take, you may never be able to quad kite, but there are players that can quad kite with no effort at all because they have skill.
Sooner or Later
Actually Tdogskal I agree with much of what you say. EQ was a hard game based on a few of its design choices. You point out aspects of the game that are challenges and difficulties to overcome. You don't say it was hard because it takes longer to level or something trivial like that. Travel for example used to be very long and tedious, but it was also difficult, because there was danger everywhere. My whole point is that it is the little things when all combined that sum up a games degree of difficulty and not simply just measuring how long all those things take.
I don't think the group play[dungeons] were any harder than the group play in WoW and I disagree that risk makes a game more challenging. Some people like huge risks some don't, but it has no effect on how challenging those puzzles, combats and tradeskills are except to put bigger time sinks on failure. Death penalties are just different ways to dress up time sinks really. More risk gives more of a sense of danger and that is a great motivator to people, but that doesn't mean people don't care about failing in other games. Let me ask you a question about the hardcore diablo servers. Are the monsters tougher? Do you get better equipment for killing the same level monsters? etc etc. It isn't any harder though. That is like saying Blackjack is more difficult when you bet 5 million dollars than it is when you bet $10 dollars. Same game, same degree of difficulty the only difference is the thrill in a bigger risk. Some people love thrill and more power to them, nothing wrong with it.
I also played EQ in a very high end raid guild for several of the early years and I saw every bit of content that was released long before the next expansion pack was released. Likewise there are plenty of people who will not see much of what WoW has to offer high end. I'm sure there are plenty of people who fall into both categories in every MMO. Some see all the content and some don't. Some will master the game and some won't. Playing an MMO isn't exactly rocket science.
What I don't agree with is that time, just for the sake of extra time spent makes a game any harder.
However, ho read an FAQ on any of the high end bosses and compare them to FAQs to a boss in EQ, UO, AC, COH, LOTR and a whole bunch of other MMOs. Not even comparable. Soloing your way to 70 or tagging along on a raid doing very little, does not mean you mastered the game. Sitting doing nothing in AV doesn't mean you know how to PvP. The guys who wrote the FAQs and the teams at the top of the arena ladders are the masters. The rest of us are all scrubs=)
People always confuse difficulty with tedium, lousy UIs or lack of info, or shotty unintuitive game mechanics. I agree that games that are badly designed are harder to play, but NOT in a good way.
However, ho read an FAQ on any of the high end bosses and compare them to FAQs to a boss in EQ, UO, AC, COH, LOTR and a whole bunch of other MMOs. Not even comparable. Soloing your way to 70 or tagging along on a raid doing very little, does not mean you mastered the game. Sitting doing nothing in AV doesn't mean you know how to PvP. The guys who wrote the FAQs and the teams at the top of the arena ladders are the masters. The rest of us are all scrubs=)
People always confuse difficulty with tedium, lousy UIs or lack of info, or shotty unintuitive game mechanics. I agree that games that are badly designed are harder to play, but NOT in a good way.
Since I was talking about ALL aspects of WoW, not just soloing, you seem to be making a strawman arguement. I include ALL aspects of the game, solo, group, raid, crafting, etc...
WoW is still the easier game, in comparision.
However, ho read an FAQ on any of the high end bosses and compare them to FAQs to a boss in EQ, UO, AC, COH, LOTR and a whole bunch of other MMOs. Not even comparable. Soloing your way to 70 or tagging along on a raid doing very little, does not mean you mastered the game. Sitting doing nothing in AV doesn't mean you know how to PvP. The guys who wrote the FAQs and the teams at the top of the arena ladders are the masters. The rest of us are all scrubs=)
People always confuse difficulty with tedium, lousy UIs or lack of info, or shotty unintuitive game mechanics. I agree that games that are badly designed are harder to play, but NOT in a good way.
Since I was talking about ALL aspects of WoW, not just soloing, you seem to be making a strawman arguement. I include ALL aspects of the game, solo, group, raid, crafting, etc... WoW is still the easier game, in comparision.
A heavy death penalty that requires long downtime any having to grind 100X more EXP does not make a game more difficult. Thats all EQ or AC had. UO wasn't difficult at all. Leveling up skills was actually the most simplistic form of gameplay there was. You could level up without ever being in any danger. There were no difficult encounters in UO that couldn't be easily trivialized by bringing a few extra people anyway.
PLease show everyone an FAQ describing multiple encounters in any MMO that surpasses some of the more difficult and complex raid encounters in WOW. FFXI is about the only one. The only thing that might make other MMOs more difficult is time commitment. But time commitment and waiting around is not difficulty. As far as strategy and tactics in the group game, WOW is equal to or surpasses just about everything out there. Dungeons on FARM status do not count. The FAQs are facts about WOW complexity. They can't be argued over. They are difficult to figure out no matter how you slice it.
Crafting?? It was never DIFFICULT to craft anything in EQ or UO or AC or even Eve unless you consider failed roles of the dice, waiting around or travel time something hard. Crafting in those games were the same as WOW. Gather materials and press a few buttons. A failure rate doesn't make the act difficult. It makes it redious. It means doing it over and over again. Crafting in WOW is actually pretty darn difficult when you factor in the effort it takes to obtain some of the rarer materials. Pressing a few buttons isn't difficult but why should it be? TEDIOUS gameplay isn't exactly difficult gameplay unless you consider tolerating the game play as something hard. I find it difficult to enjoy the crafting in most MMOs because its a tedious bore. WOW's crafting is enjoyable. It wasn't hard to craft in other MMOs. It was BOOOOring.
PvP?? Same thing. Hell, in UO, PKing people was freakin simple. Exploit away. AC, same thing. How many people win consistently in the arenas in WOW? It ain't sitting there farming Rep like in AV.
I guess a lot of MMOs are hard because its damn hard to find most of them enjoyable. SO, yes you win. WOW is very easy to enjoy. Thank god=)
A stiffer death penalty doesn't make the combat that took place before your death one bit more challenging. It just makes it more tedious.
Removing quests just makes leveling boring and/or tedious. Sitting in the same spot grinding mobs to level isn't exactly difficult.
There is a world of difference between tedious game mechanics and difficult gameplay. I've played a lot of games in my online time and none really stick out as difficult in comparison to others. I've seen to many game that substitute long boring mechanics in place of entertaining gameplay that draws a player in.
Actually a death penalty adds a bit of thrill to the fight rather then "oh big deal, I'll just suicide and run back to my body over and over again."When you step into WoW you are right away directed on where to go and what to do.
Crafting is point and click this and run up to a node that shown to you on a map.
WoW is a good game of course and entertaining. But it is ridiculously easy and spoonfed.
I will say that wow is ez to learn, hard to master. And by master I mean get the best gear and UI mods. After that there is a small skill requirment but gear and mods will win.
I think that wow glider is the best example of this.
However, ho read an FAQ on any of the high end bosses and compare them to FAQs to a boss in EQ, UO, AC, COH, LOTR and a whole bunch of other MMOs. Not even comparable. Soloing your way to 70 or tagging along on a raid doing very little, does not mean you mastered the game. Sitting doing nothing in AV doesn't mean you know how to PvP. The guys who wrote the FAQs and the teams at the top of the arena ladders are the masters. The rest of us are all scrubs=)
People always confuse difficulty with tedium, lousy UIs or lack of info, or shotty unintuitive game mechanics. I agree that games that are badly designed are harder to play, but NOT in a good way.
Since I was talking about ALL aspects of WoW, not just soloing, you seem to be making a strawman arguement. I include ALL aspects of the game, solo, group, raid, crafting, etc... WoW is still the easier game, in comparision.
A heavy death penalty that requires long downtime any having to grind 100X more EXP does not make a game more difficult. Thats all EQ or AC had. UO wasn't difficult at all. Leveling up skills was actually the most simplistic form of gameplay there was. You could level up without ever being in any danger. There were no difficult encounters in UO that couldn't be easily trivialized by bringing a few extra people anyway.
PLease show everyone an FAQ describing multiple encounters in any MMO that surpasses some of the more difficult and complex raid encounters in WOW. FFXI is about the only one. The only thing that might make other MMOs more difficult is time commitment. But time commitment and waiting around is not difficulty. As far as strategy and tactics in the group game, WOW is equal to or surpasses just about everything out there. Dungeons on FARM status do not count. The FAQs are facts about WOW complexity. They can't be argued over. They are difficult to figure out no matter how you slice it.
Crafting?? It was never DIFFICULT to craft anything in EQ or UO or AC or even Eve unless you consider failed roles of the dice, waiting around or travel time something hard. Crafting in those games were the same as WOW. Gather materials and press a few buttons. A failure rate doesn't make the act difficult. It makes it redious. It means doing it over and over again. Crafting in WOW is actually pretty darn difficult when you factor in the effort it takes to obtain some of the rarer materials. Pressing a few buttons isn't difficult but why should it be? TEDIOUS gameplay isn't exactly difficult gameplay unless you consider tolerating the game play as something hard. I find it difficult to enjoy the crafting in most MMOs because its a tedious bore. WOW's crafting is enjoyable. It wasn't hard to craft in other MMOs. It was BOOOOring.
PvP?? Same thing. Hell, in UO, PKing people was freakin simple. Exploit away. AC, same thing. How many people win consistently in the arenas in WOW? It ain't sitting there farming Rep like in AV.
I guess a lot of MMOs are hard because its damn hard to find most of them enjoyable. SO, yes you win. WOW is very easy to enjoy. Thank god=)
Josher, if you are going to quote my posts, you might try responding to my points rather than having an agruement with yourself.
P.S. When compared to other games I have played, WoW is still the easiest to learn and master. Also, because WoW is so simple to learn and master, it is also easy to quickly out grow.
Seems to me, Josher is the only one MAKING points in this argument. Taliasin is tossing out generalizations with no specifics.
And yes, I agree with Josher. The gameplay in WoW is at least as challenging as other games. They have removed tedium and timesinks -- not the same as "dumbing it down."
A stiffer death penalty doesn't make the combat that took place before your death one bit more challenging. It just makes it more tedious.
Removing quests just makes leveling boring and/or tedious. Sitting in the same spot grinding mobs to level isn't exactly difficult.
There is a world of difference between tedious game mechanics and difficult gameplay. I've played a lot of games in my online time and none really stick out as difficult in comparison to others. I've seen to many game that substitute long boring mechanics in place of entertaining gameplay that draws a player in.
Actually a death penalty adds a bit of thrill to the fight rather then "oh big deal, I'll just suicide and run back to my body over and over again."When you step into WoW you are right away directed on where to go and what to do.
Crafting is point and click this and run up to a node that shown to you on a map.
WoW is a good game of course and entertaining. But it is ridiculously easy and spoonfed.
Quests told you where to go in DAOC long before WoW was even a rumor. Crafting as you described it is almost exactly the same in every fantasy MMO out. I will even go further to say that combat mechanics have not changed significantly in ten years.Why is WoW so much easier than these other games? I just cannot buy into that because the quests do the same thing other games have been doing for years, the crafting is pretty much the same and combat has not changed since EQ.
With very few exceptions I cannot honestly say that the mechanics in any MMO has challenged me since UO/EQ years. I hear all these people talk about how easy WoW is, but I never hear compared to what? I've tried the other games and they are no more difficult save for dealing with bad game design or unnecessary time sinks in place of real content. There are a few things here and there, but the converse it just as true.
Just off the top of my head, crafting in SWG was beyond excellent with many intricate challenges from managing resource inventory and quality, competing with other merchants and actually knowing how to make quality items. WoW dugeons and raids have been top notch compared to anything in a long long time. Well written, entertaining and challenging. PvP in Guild Wars and to a lesser extent SWG (minus the completely broken system), because there was some mystery as to what skills your opponent could use.
Honestly I find most of this easy/hard talk to be deceptive and dishonest. Is there really a fantasy MMO in the last half dozen years that has actually been hard? People like to spew that WoW is so easy, but what other game is it being compared to that is so hard, timesinks aside I can't think of one that offers any real challenge that isn't cookie cutter to the next. As far as I can tell the whole fantasy market has just been a whole lot of the same thing over and over. I don't understand why people can suddenly find that harder than it already was.