D&D pen and paper is not a computer game - there is no way a player in P&P can apply the kinds of skills and control that one can in a computer game. Nevertheless, I am not saying dice rolls are in and of themselves bad - to an extent all MMOs use some kind of dice roll to settle certain things. I am criticizing the extent and commonality of circumstances where the dice role is the sole determinate of an outcome. In DDO the dice roll (and to an extent gear) is far, far too often the sole (or even vastly dominant) determinant with player action either not mattering or simply being of minor influence to the outcome.
D&D pen and paper is not a computer game - there is no way a player in P&P can apply the kinds of skills and control that one can in a computer game. Nevertheless, I am not saying dice rolls are in and of themselves bad - to an extent all MMOs use some kind of dice roll to settle certain things. I am criticizing the extent and commonality of circumstances where the dice role is the sole determinate of an outcome. In DDO the dice roll (and to an extent gear) is far, far too often the sole (or even vastly dominant) determinant with player action either not mattering or simply being of minor influence to the outcome.
Maybe you didn't play at high levels?
When your attack bonus is +40, your trap skills are +55, your saves are +25 and up, the d20 roll is hardly the determining factor in whether or not you succeed. In the specific case of traps you're definately wrong - there are common benchmarks trap disablers can achieve so that they never (or very rarely) fail.
Maybe you didn't play at high levels? When your attack bonus is +40, your trap skills are +55, your saves are +25 and up, the d20 roll is hardly the determining factor in whether or not you succeed. In the specific case of traps you're definately wrong - there are common benchmarks trap disablers can achieve so that they never (or very rarely) fail.
As I said - two characters over 10 - that is plenty high to see how things work. Besides that - exactly what are you suggesting matters in disabling a trap other than a dice roll and gear/character attributes? Absolutely nothing else matters, there is zero player (the actual person playing the game not the character skills/attributes) that has anything to do with the outcome.
It is simply amazing how many people willa rgue adn deny such basic immutable facts about the game. If you love the game as it is then why must you argue it is not as it is to defend it?
First, I dont love this game. Look at most of the comments I make in this forum about it - if anything people probably think I'm a troll for bashing it so much.
Second, you make no sense. I don't even understand what you are looking for...building a character with certain skills and enhancements and selecting the proper gear IS doing something as a player when it comes to disabling traps. What do you want, a little minigame like morrowind lock picking or something?
God I really don't like this game and yet morons like you actually have me defending it because you can't use your brain. That's sad.
First, I dont love this game. Look at most of the comments I make in this forum about it - if anything people probably think I'm a troll for bashing it so much. Second, you make no sense. I don't even understand what you are looking for...building a character with certain skills and enhancements and selecting the proper gear IS doing something as a player when it comes to disabling traps. What do you want, a little minigame like morrowind lock picking or something? God I really don't like this game and yet morons like you actually have me defending it because you can't use your brain. That's sad.
You are the one struggling to use their brain - any rational person understands completely the differance between character attributes (feats and such) and dice rolss being the ONLY determinate in outcomes and being part of an outcome. Much of the gaming public wants actions, or lack thereof, during an encounter to be the predominant determinate of an encounter but that is often not the case with DDO. If gear and character attributes and dice roles are the sole determinate, or close to being so, then you are not playing the game but merely watching it unfold.
First, I dont love this game. Look at most of the comments I make in this forum about it - if anything people probably think I'm a troll for bashing it so much. Second, you make no sense. I don't even understand what you are looking for...building a character with certain skills and enhancements and selecting the proper gear IS doing something as a player when it comes to disabling traps. What do you want, a little minigame like morrowind lock picking or something? God I really don't like this game and yet morons like you actually have me defending it because you can't use your brain. That's sad.
You are the one struggling to use their brain - any rational person understands completely the differance between character attributes (feats and such) and dice rolss being the ONLY determinate in outcomes and being part of an outcome. Much of the gaming public wants actions, or lack thereof, during an encounter to be the predominant determinate of an encounter but that is often not the case with DDO. If gear and character attributes and dice roles are the sole determinate, or close to being so, then you are not playing the game but merely watching it unfold.
ummm. the very nature of what D&D is is that everything, abilities, skills, everything is based on die rolls. Thats how its supposed to be. Even in console RPGs when you attack, its a simulated die roll that decides if you hit or miss. what makes D&D fun is that you can and will fail with skills at times. Would you rather the thief be able to correctly auto-disable the lock everytime??? what fun would that be?
Player ability comes in how you build your character, your stats, chosen skills, race and equipment all factor into your abilities...thats where the skill comes in, but just like in real life, everything requires a certain amount of luck as well.
Its an age-old game mechanic, I'm just not sure what you're asking for instead
At some point in time the programming has to take over and determine the outcome of an action you take. This is how video games work.
Understandable - but in DDO the 'action' is too often irrelvant. The program simply decides based on what you where/are before the encounter started or what you brought with you and not on what you do or don't do in way, way, way too many cases.
At some point in time the programming has to take over and determine the outcome of an action you take. This is how video games work.
Understandable - but in DDO the 'action' is too often irrelvant. The program simply decides based on what you where or what you brought with you - not on what you do or don't do in way, way, way too many cases.
Maybe you can give me an example of an MMO that does what you are talking about so that I can better understand.
At some point in time the programming has to take over and determine the outcome of an action you take. This is how video games work.
Understandable - but in DDO the 'action' is too often irrelvant. The program simply decides based on what you where or what you brought with you - not on what you do or don't do in way, way, way too many cases.
Wow...you do know that programs cant actually "decide" anything, right? again, your character build plus a die roll determines success or failure...sounds to me like you built a crappy rouge that didn't succeed much and now you're bitter.
Originally posted by merv808 Wow...you do know that programs cant actually "decide" anything, right? again, your character build plus a die roll determines success or failure...sounds to me like you built a crappy rouge that didn't succeed much and now you're bitter.
Your childish personal attacks aside, there is a huge differance between those things deciding on a hit or on damage and deciding on if you get made blind, if you get held for 3 or 5 minutes unable to react in anyway, or even if you simply get insta-killed. All MMOs roll the dice in some way to dertermine parts of a battle unfolding under the direction of the players but DDO, around mid to upper levels, rolls the dice to decide on overall success and failure of encounters and does so far to often.
Originally posted by Gabrion2
Maybe you can give me an example of an MMO that does what you are talking about so that I can better understand.
Easy, most MMOs are not as DDO is I think. In Age of Conan (am trying but finding it a tad bland in some ways) your character level and gear plays a part of the outcome of an encounter but it is not the sole determinate. In DDO the roll, or your save number, or your gear/skill stat which existed prior to the encounter ever starting far to often is what determines the outcome. An example would be the mummy i mentioned earlier - it gets to throw a spell with its aura (despair if I recall) and if your save number + the dice roll comes out against you then you get held for 3 minutes before the mummy is ever even visible to you at all. So no player action enters in to the equation except the action to start the quest in the first place. No player action can counter or react or defend against the circumstance - the outcome is entirely decided without regard to anything the player does, simply by what attributes/gear the player has and/or the dice roll.
Same with the rogue thing - click the trap box to disable and the computer decides if you succeed or fail - player action has nothing to do with it. I recall in Bioshock (yes, it is an FPS/RPG not an MMO) that when you went to hack a machine (similar in theme to disabling a trap) you had a little mini puzzle that you had to solve. Your skills would make that harder or easier - like if it was a maze type puzzle the speed would slow with more skills/attributes in that facet than would otherwise be the case but the player still had to take positive action to succeed and taking negative action meant failure. The player, tweaked by skills/attributes, determines the outcome.
The point here being that dice roles are going to be part of any MMO, so is gear and skills/attributes. Although I think most MMOs roll the dice to determine degrees with the margins decided by stats and gear - IE I have 5 offense and you have 4 defense so we 'roll' with me getting a +1 advantage to the hit or damage but it isn't a +1 to dying or living just to that one swing/attack. All fine and dandy but in DDO it is rolling over things like insta-death spells, holds spells, traps, and all sorts of critical elements that at the high levels are really what determines success/failure. Fine if player action is always in that mix and players have the opportunity to take action during the encounter to counter or overcome such things but with the nature of DDOs spells and such there is often no counter possible once the random part is decided. So the failure of DDO is those things are far too often the only thing that matters and encounters often are merely events that unfold and animate based on only those things and player action/inaction is either irrelevant or minimally relevant.
Ok so you use AoC as an example. Be specific here...what besides your character stats, gear, and the buttons you push determines the outcome of an action. Again...be specific.
Well, you mention an important thing there that AoC incorporates that is not present so much in DDO - the buttons you push. As I described in several contexts in DDO teh buttons you push part is missing, in other words the decision is made not by what you do in the fight but by what you where or have before the fight starts or by some random dice roll based on what you had or where. The 'action' is what is missing, the button pushes - when you get PK cast on you from a range 5 times or more past your sight range and from around corners and walls there are no 'buttons to push. When you get held by a mummy who is 4 or 5 rooms away and are frozen and unable to do anything there are no buttons to push. It is the buttons to push part that is missing in far too much of the mid to upper DDO encounters.
Now that being said, one thing in AoC I am starting to find boring is character development. Sadly, it seems AoC is much like LotRO where you are not creating a character but simply unlocking the character the DEVs made. In DDO character development is excellent - so it isn't the end of the world that character stats and attributes and gear play a role in encounters. However, coupled with the plentiful hold and death and other instant kill or incapacitating type spells based only on that dice roll it just seems that far too much of the upper end encounters are about things that where fixed when the fight started and not about what you do during the fight.
Well, you mention an important thing there that AoC incorporates that is not present so much in DDO - the buttons you push. As I described in several contexts in DDO teh buttons you push part is missing, in other words the decision is made not by what you do in the fight but by what you where or have before the fight starts or by some random dice roll based on what you had or where. The 'action' is what is missing, the button pushes - when you get PK cast on you from a range 5 times or more past your sight range and from around corners and walls there are no 'buttons to push. When you get held by a mummy who is 4 or 5 rooms away and are frozen and unable to do anything there are no buttons to push. It is the buttons to push part that is missing in far too much of the mid to upper DDO encounters. Now that being said, one thing in AoC I am starting to find boring is character development. Sadly, it seems AoC is much like LotRO where you are not creating a character but simply unlocking the character the DEVs made. In DDO character development is excellent - so it isn't the end of the world that character stats and attributes and gear play a role in encounters. However, coupled with the plentiful hold and death and other instant kill or incapacitating type spells based only on that dice roll it just seems that far too much of the upper end encounters are about things that where fixed when the fight started and not about what you do during the fight.
Not true regarding Rogues, sorry I play five. The example you gave is buttons pushed well your build determines how many buttons you have to push along with the difficulty of the trap. Do I need to switch out gear (requires buttons pushed), do I need to put my Int item on for this trap (requires buttons pushed), do I need to use buffs to help me get near the difficulty number required? (requires buttons pushed and often times other party members), do I need to use a skill boost to either search or disable this trap? (requires buttons pushed). I need to search out the box once I have either spotted it using my spot skill (requires buttons pushed), then I need to diasable it (requires physically locating the box and pushing buttons).
There is no way you are getting PK'ed from 5 times your sight range around conrners, sorry calling BS on this. If it's PKing you outside your sight distance you either have your draw distance set extreamly low or are looking the wrong direction. As has been stated beholders PKing you through walls, ect. hasn't happened since like mod 1 sorry your making up BS to support your arguments now, post a link to a screen shot or a fraps video of this happening to support your claims.
And back to the skill checks ect. it's pretty damn ridiculous to both attack a game for a) not following game mechanics (in their handling of Beholders) and b) for following 3.5 game mechanics in the use of saves and skill use now isn't it?
And lacking activity in combat? Thats a new one, guess you never use the block? Or use combat feats like trip/sunder/stunning blow/cleave/greater cleave/whirlwind attack? Skills and Action bboosts in combat like Diplomacy/Bluff/Intimidate/Speed Boosts/Damage Boosts/AC Boosts/Skill Boosts/Save Boosts/Attack Boosts/DR Boosts? Combat is as active or as boring as your playstyle dictates, sounds like you have a very boring playstyle.
Not true regarding Rogues, sorry I play five. The example you gave is buttons pushed well your build determines how many buttons you have to push along with the difficulty of the trap. Do I need to switch out gear (requires buttons pushed), do I need to put my Int item on for this trap (requires buttons pushed), do I need to use buffs to help me get near the difficulty number required? (requires buttons pushed and often times other party members), do I need to use a skill boost to either search or disable this trap? (requires buttons pushed). I need to search out the box once I have either spotted it using my spot skill (requires buttons pushed), then I need to diasable it (requires physically locating the box and pushing buttons).
I think you make my point - clicking the icon on a toolbar to 'disable device' does not player skill make. Clicking an icon on a toolbar to boost skills before clicking the 'disable device' button does not player skill make. Those are static attributes and the outcome is decided solely by the dice roll verse the attributes of the character regardless of his action or inaction. Yes, inaction in not clicking the disable device would matter but that is hardly something you can argue is 'player skill'.
Originally posted by Hvymetal
There is no way you are getting PK'ed from 5 times your sight range around conrners, sorry calling BS on this. If it's PKing you outside your sight distance you either have your draw distance set extreamly low or are looking the wrong direction. As has been stated beholders PKing you through walls, ect. hasn't happened since like mod 1 sorry your making up BS to support your arguments now, post a link to a screen shot or a fraps video of this happening to support your claims.
I can show you a number of places it happens all the time, without fail. I mentioned a couple - Threnal quests with beholders where they are casting spells down the long winding tunnel and even around the corner at the base of that tunnel - easily many times the normal site line let alone normal cast distance and tit is not a straight LOS even - it winds and turns so he is not only going insanely long distance but through walls and around corners and through the floor. The mummy in the quest over in the NE of the desert - casts the despair on people three+ rooms away all the time. Plus all the numerous and frequent times any random caster tosses spells on you from around a corner or long range or otherwise without proper LOS/range - no to forget teh unlimited mana, lack of cooldowns, and that they are mostly if not entirely uninterruptable.
Originally posted by Hvymetal
And back to the skill checks ect. it's pretty damn ridiculous to both attack a game for a) not following game mechanics (in their handling of Beholders) and b) for following 3.5 game mechanics in the use of saves and skill use now isn't it? And lacking activity in combat? Thats a new one, guess you never use the block? Or use combat feats like trip/sunder/stunning blow/cleave/greater cleave/whirlwind attack? Skills and Action bboosts in combat like Diplomacy/Bluff/Intimidate/Speed Boosts/Damage Boosts/AC Boosts/Skill Boosts/Save Boosts/Attack Boosts/DR Boosts? Combat is as active or as boring as your playstyle dictates, sounds like you have a very boring playstyle.
I did not say that you don't have things to do in combat - I said at the upper levels the DECIDING factor is far too often the dice rols, teh saves for or against, gear, character attributes - the static things not controlled by a play or MOB in combat. Big differance between stats and gear and such influencing outcome of player action and stats and gear and dice rolls overiding or outweighing player action/inaction in combat.
Maybe the enemy casters sometimes cast at too long range or without LoS, but I can't remember when is the last time I noticed it. Hiding in a corner works for me. Unlimited mana? So what, if we players were fighting only one encounter (like enemies in here), we would have the equivalent of unlimited mana as well. No cooldown? I seriously doubt it, again I never noticed being spammed by a spell without cooldown.
Finally, if you're fighting a beholder or a mummy, equip your deathblock item or fear immunity item, that's the button you want to push to avoid dying...
I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, but you make it look really bad, while in practice it hardly bothers anyone in-game.
I did not say that you don't have things to do in combat - I said at the upper levels the DECIDING factor is far too often the dice rols, teh saves for or against, gear, character attributes - the static things not controlled by a play or MOB in combat. Big differance between stats and gear and such influencing outcome of player action and stats and gear and dice rolls overiding or outweighing player action/inaction in combat.
I'm sorry, but this complaint seems a bit ridiculous. With DDO's active combat, player "skill" in blocking, dodging, tumbling, etc. is more important than in any other MMO I've played to date...and that includes AoC. The only style of game that it doesn't surpass is a first person shooter.
I wish we could just stop this thread. The OP has turned around and started attacking DnD core rules - complaining that DDO is trying to stay as close to the DnD core rules as possible, seems ludicrous to me. You dont like it, I understand..
Disable a trap:Total skill value + roll = success/failure.. thats it. punktum. finale. (that pretty much summarizes all your valid complaints)
You are showing yourself as a simple troll, as I suspected
So now we need to have a discussion about how what makes a good board game is not what makes a god PC game? Come on - people play PC games to be involved in anyone wanted dice rolls and level attributes/gear to be the overriding deciding factor then you wouldn't need a mouse and KB save to click on which adventures to have the server decide if you completed or not. Exaggerated? Sure, but the point remains valid - a GOOD computer game has encounter outcomes that are determined by play action or inaction, gear, attributes, dice rolls and the like play a part but are not the predominant part. In DDO, as you get to the higher levels, those things are the predominant factor and player action/inaction is often minimally relevant.
So not only being feared by a mummy several rooms away, but one asleep in a sarcophagus, that only breaks when you get close to it, very impressive. Did I tell you the story where I was killed by a kobold from the Waterworks using a shotgun, while I was Gianthold Tor. This game really cheats!!!
Please feel free to share your stories of outrageous cheating.
At some point in time the programming has to take over and determine the outcome of an action you take. This is how video games work.
Understandable - but in DDO the 'action' is too often irrelvant. The program simply decides based on what you where/are before the encounter started or what you brought with you and not on what you do or don't do in way, way, way too many cases.
Absolutely illogical point of view. The more times you repeat some random mechanism within a set period of time, the more accurate average value you get. You have a 20 dice rolling many times within a short time and one bad roll usually doesn't harm you (except for instant death spells or save vs paralyse effects). Nevertheless, your movement and what you actually do during the combat gives you much more control over the combat in compare to MMORPGS where you have fixed target and just press buttons.
You actually said button smashing is actually much more "smart" than the system in DDo? You either did not fully understand the combat system in DDo or setting a fixed target and then pressing the same buttons over and over is heavily demanding on your intellect, or the combination of both.
Maybe you didn't play at high levels? When your attack bonus is +40, your trap skills are +55, your saves are +25 and up, the d20 roll is hardly the determining factor in whether or not you succeed. In the specific case of traps you're definately wrong - there are common benchmarks trap disablers can achieve so that they never (or very rarely) fail.
As I said - two characters over 10 - that is plenty high to see how things work. Besides that - exactly what are you suggesting matters in disabling a trap other than a dice roll and gear/character attributes? Absolutely nothing else matters, there is zero player (the actual person playing the game not the character skills/attributes) that has anything to do with the outcome.
It is simply amazing how many people willa rgue adn deny such basic immutable facts about the game. If you love the game as it is then why must you argue it is not as it is to defend it?
Bottom line:
It is Dungeons and Dragons. Not an FPS. The PLAYERS skill has zip, zero, nada, to do with the character's ability to accomplish tasks. The skills that the character has determines that. Its the way AD&D has always worked. It's simply amazing how many people argue about a game mechanic that's innate to the title: Dungeons & Dragons. It is what it is. Don't sit here and argue that it doesn't work right, because it does. Just because you'd prefer it be done differently doesn't mean it's working 'wrong'.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
It is Dungeons and Dragons. Not an FPS. The PLAYERS skill has zip, zero, nada, to do with the character's ability to accomplish tasks. The skills that the character has determines that. Its the way AD&D has always worked. It's simply amazing how many people argue about a game mechanic that's innate to the title: Dungeons & Dragons. It is what it is. Don't sit here and argue that it doesn't work right, because it does. Just because you'd prefer it be done differently doesn't mean it's working 'wrong'.
Fair enough - but it makes for a video game with serious issues is what I am saying. And as many people know they have cheated the D&D rules quite a bit to toughen it up as it was getting waxed early on by players. So you get a bad video game with a stacked version of the D&D rules as well. It is little ownder the gaming public has largely rejected the game and populations remain very small.
Comments
Of course you are right, D&D didn't have any die rolls, you really are a chump!
D&D pen and paper is not a computer game - there is no way a player in P&P can apply the kinds of skills and control that one can in a computer game. Nevertheless, I am not saying dice rolls are in and of themselves bad - to an extent all MMOs use some kind of dice roll to settle certain things. I am criticizing the extent and commonality of circumstances where the dice role is the sole determinate of an outcome. In DDO the dice roll (and to an extent gear) is far, far too often the sole (or even vastly dominant) determinant with player action either not mattering or simply being of minor influence to the outcome.
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Maybe you didn't play at high levels?
When your attack bonus is +40, your trap skills are +55, your saves are +25 and up, the d20 roll is hardly the determining factor in whether or not you succeed. In the specific case of traps you're definately wrong - there are common benchmarks trap disablers can achieve so that they never (or very rarely) fail.
It is simply amazing how many people willa rgue adn deny such basic immutable facts about the game. If you love the game as it is then why must you argue it is not as it is to defend it?
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First, I dont love this game. Look at most of the comments I make in this forum about it - if anything people probably think I'm a troll for bashing it so much.
Second, you make no sense. I don't even understand what you are looking for...building a character with certain skills and enhancements and selecting the proper gear IS doing something as a player when it comes to disabling traps. What do you want, a little minigame like morrowind lock picking or something?
God I really don't like this game and yet morons like you actually have me defending it because you can't use your brain. That's sad.
You are the one struggling to use their brain - any rational person understands completely the differance between character attributes (feats and such) and dice rolss being the ONLY determinate in outcomes and being part of an outcome. Much of the gaming public wants actions, or lack thereof, during an encounter to be the predominant determinate of an encounter but that is often not the case with DDO. If gear and character attributes and dice roles are the sole determinate, or close to being so, then you are not playing the game but merely watching it unfold.
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You are the one struggling to use their brain - any rational person understands completely the differance between character attributes (feats and such) and dice rolss being the ONLY determinate in outcomes and being part of an outcome. Much of the gaming public wants actions, or lack thereof, during an encounter to be the predominant determinate of an encounter but that is often not the case with DDO. If gear and character attributes and dice roles are the sole determinate, or close to being so, then you are not playing the game but merely watching it unfold.
ummm. the very nature of what D&D is is that everything, abilities, skills, everything is based on die rolls. Thats how its supposed to be. Even in console RPGs when you attack, its a simulated die roll that decides if you hit or miss. what makes D&D fun is that you can and will fail with skills at times. Would you rather the thief be able to correctly auto-disable the lock everytime??? what fun would that be?Player ability comes in how you build your character, your stats, chosen skills, race and equipment all factor into your abilities...thats where the skill comes in, but just like in real life, everything requires a certain amount of luck as well.
Its an age-old game mechanic, I'm just not sure what you're asking for instead
At some point in time the programming has to take over and determine the outcome of an action you take. This is how video games work.
um programs "decide" things with simulated die rolls....you can't be that retarded
Understandable - but in DDO the 'action' is too often irrelvant. The program simply decides based on what you where/are before the encounter started or what you brought with you and not on what you do or don't do in way, way, way too many cases.
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Understandable - but in DDO the 'action' is too often irrelvant. The program simply decides based on what you where or what you brought with you - not on what you do or don't do in way, way, way too many cases.
Maybe you can give me an example of an MMO that does what you are talking about so that I can better understand.
Understandable - but in DDO the 'action' is too often irrelvant. The program simply decides based on what you where or what you brought with you - not on what you do or don't do in way, way, way too many cases.
Wow...you do know that programs cant actually "decide" anything, right? again, your character build plus a die roll determines success or failure...sounds to me like you built a crappy rouge that didn't succeed much and now you're bitter.
Your childish personal attacks aside, there is a huge differance between those things deciding on a hit or on damage and deciding on if you get made blind, if you get held for 3 or 5 minutes unable to react in anyway, or even if you simply get insta-killed. All MMOs roll the dice in some way to dertermine parts of a battle unfolding under the direction of the players but DDO, around mid to upper levels, rolls the dice to decide on overall success and failure of encounters and does so far to often.
Easy, most MMOs are not as DDO is I think. In Age of Conan (am trying but finding it a tad bland in some ways) your character level and gear plays a part of the outcome of an encounter but it is not the sole determinate. In DDO the roll, or your save number, or your gear/skill stat which existed prior to the encounter ever starting far to often is what determines the outcome. An example would be the mummy i mentioned earlier - it gets to throw a spell with its aura (despair if I recall) and if your save number + the dice roll comes out against you then you get held for 3 minutes before the mummy is ever even visible to you at all. So no player action enters in to the equation except the action to start the quest in the first place. No player action can counter or react or defend against the circumstance - the outcome is entirely decided without regard to anything the player does, simply by what attributes/gear the player has and/or the dice roll.
Same with the rogue thing - click the trap box to disable and the computer decides if you succeed or fail - player action has nothing to do with it. I recall in Bioshock (yes, it is an FPS/RPG not an MMO) that when you went to hack a machine (similar in theme to disabling a trap) you had a little mini puzzle that you had to solve. Your skills would make that harder or easier - like if it was a maze type puzzle the speed would slow with more skills/attributes in that facet than would otherwise be the case but the player still had to take positive action to succeed and taking negative action meant failure. The player, tweaked by skills/attributes, determines the outcome.
The point here being that dice roles are going to be part of any MMO, so is gear and skills/attributes. Although I think most MMOs roll the dice to determine degrees with the margins decided by stats and gear - IE I have 5 offense and you have 4 defense so we 'roll' with me getting a +1 advantage to the hit or damage but it isn't a +1 to dying or living just to that one swing/attack. All fine and dandy but in DDO it is rolling over things like insta-death spells, holds spells, traps, and all sorts of critical elements that at the high levels are really what determines success/failure. Fine if player action is always in that mix and players have the opportunity to take action during the encounter to counter or overcome such things but with the nature of DDOs spells and such there is often no counter possible once the random part is decided. So the failure of DDO is those things are far too often the only thing that matters and encounters often are merely events that unfold and animate based on only those things and player action/inaction is either irrelevant or minimally relevant.
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Ok so you use AoC as an example. Be specific here...what besides your character stats, gear, and the buttons you push determines the outcome of an action. Again...be specific.
Well, you mention an important thing there that AoC incorporates that is not present so much in DDO - the buttons you push. As I described in several contexts in DDO teh buttons you push part is missing, in other words the decision is made not by what you do in the fight but by what you where or have before the fight starts or by some random dice roll based on what you had or where. The 'action' is what is missing, the button pushes - when you get PK cast on you from a range 5 times or more past your sight range and from around corners and walls there are no 'buttons to push. When you get held by a mummy who is 4 or 5 rooms away and are frozen and unable to do anything there are no buttons to push. It is the buttons to push part that is missing in far too much of the mid to upper DDO encounters.
Now that being said, one thing in AoC I am starting to find boring is character development. Sadly, it seems AoC is much like LotRO where you are not creating a character but simply unlocking the character the DEVs made. In DDO character development is excellent - so it isn't the end of the world that character stats and attributes and gear play a role in encounters. However, coupled with the plentiful hold and death and other instant kill or incapacitating type spells based only on that dice roll it just seems that far too much of the upper end encounters are about things that where fixed when the fight started and not about what you do during the fight.
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Not true regarding Rogues, sorry I play five. The example you gave is buttons pushed well your build determines how many buttons you have to push along with the difficulty of the trap. Do I need to switch out gear (requires buttons pushed), do I need to put my Int item on for this trap (requires buttons pushed), do I need to use buffs to help me get near the difficulty number required? (requires buttons pushed and often times other party members), do I need to use a skill boost to either search or disable this trap? (requires buttons pushed). I need to search out the box once I have either spotted it using my spot skill (requires buttons pushed), then I need to diasable it (requires physically locating the box and pushing buttons).
There is no way you are getting PK'ed from 5 times your sight range around conrners, sorry calling BS on this. If it's PKing you outside your sight distance you either have your draw distance set extreamly low or are looking the wrong direction. As has been stated beholders PKing you through walls, ect. hasn't happened since like mod 1 sorry your making up BS to support your arguments now, post a link to a screen shot or a fraps video of this happening to support your claims.
And back to the skill checks ect. it's pretty damn ridiculous to both attack a game for a) not following game mechanics (in their handling of Beholders) and b) for following 3.5 game mechanics in the use of saves and skill use now isn't it?
And lacking activity in combat? Thats a new one, guess you never use the block? Or use combat feats like trip/sunder/stunning blow/cleave/greater cleave/whirlwind attack? Skills and Action bboosts in combat like Diplomacy/Bluff/Intimidate/Speed Boosts/Damage Boosts/AC Boosts/Skill Boosts/Save Boosts/Attack Boosts/DR Boosts? Combat is as active or as boring as your playstyle dictates, sounds like you have a very boring playstyle.
I think you make my point - clicking the icon on a toolbar to 'disable device' does not player skill make. Clicking an icon on a toolbar to boost skills before clicking the 'disable device' button does not player skill make. Those are static attributes and the outcome is decided solely by the dice roll verse the attributes of the character regardless of his action or inaction. Yes, inaction in not clicking the disable device would matter but that is hardly something you can argue is 'player skill'.
I can show you a number of places it happens all the time, without fail. I mentioned a couple - Threnal quests with beholders where they are casting spells down the long winding tunnel and even around the corner at the base of that tunnel - easily many times the normal site line let alone normal cast distance and tit is not a straight LOS even - it winds and turns so he is not only going insanely long distance but through walls and around corners and through the floor. The mummy in the quest over in the NE of the desert - casts the despair on people three+ rooms away all the time. Plus all the numerous and frequent times any random caster tosses spells on you from around a corner or long range or otherwise without proper LOS/range - no to forget teh unlimited mana, lack of cooldowns, and that they are mostly if not entirely uninterruptable.
I did not say that you don't have things to do in combat - I said at the upper levels the DECIDING factor is far too often the dice rols, teh saves for or against, gear, character attributes - the static things not controlled by a play or MOB in combat. Big differance between stats and gear and such influencing outcome of player action and stats and gear and dice rolls overiding or outweighing player action/inaction in combat.
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Maybe the enemy casters sometimes cast at too long range or without LoS, but I can't remember when is the last time I noticed it. Hiding in a corner works for me. Unlimited mana? So what, if we players were fighting only one encounter (like enemies in here), we would have the equivalent of unlimited mana as well. No cooldown? I seriously doubt it, again I never noticed being spammed by a spell without cooldown.
Finally, if you're fighting a beholder or a mummy, equip your deathblock item or fear immunity item, that's the button you want to push to avoid dying...
I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, but you make it look really bad, while in practice it hardly bothers anyone in-game.
I'm sorry, but this complaint seems a bit ridiculous. With DDO's active combat, player "skill" in blocking, dodging, tumbling, etc. is more important than in any other MMO I've played to date...and that includes AoC. The only style of game that it doesn't surpass is a first person shooter.
I wish we could just stop this thread. The OP has turned around and started attacking DnD core rules - complaining that DDO is trying to stay as close to the DnD core rules as possible, seems ludicrous to me. You dont like it, I understand..
Disable a trap: Total skill value + roll = success/failure.. thats it. punktum. finale. (that pretty much summarizes all your valid complaints)
You are showing yourself as a simple troll, as I suspected
So now we need to have a discussion about how what makes a good board game is not what makes a god PC game? Come on - people play PC games to be involved in anyone wanted dice rolls and level attributes/gear to be the overriding deciding factor then you wouldn't need a mouse and KB save to click on which adventures to have the server decide if you completed or not. Exaggerated? Sure, but the point remains valid - a GOOD computer game has encounter outcomes that are determined by play action or inaction, gear, attributes, dice rolls and the like play a part but are not the predominant part. In DDO, as you get to the higher levels, those things are the predominant factor and player action/inaction is often minimally relevant.
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So not only being feared by a mummy several rooms away, but one asleep in a sarcophagus, that only breaks when you get close to it, very impressive. Did I tell you the story where I was killed by a kobold from the Waterworks using a shotgun, while I was Gianthold Tor. This game really cheats!!!
Please feel free to share your stories of outrageous cheating.
Understandable - but in DDO the 'action' is too often irrelvant. The program simply decides based on what you where/are before the encounter started or what you brought with you and not on what you do or don't do in way, way, way too many cases.
Absolutely illogical point of view. The more times you repeat some random mechanism within a set period of time, the more accurate average value you get. You have a 20 dice rolling many times within a short time and one bad roll usually doesn't harm you (except for instant death spells or save vs paralyse effects). Nevertheless, your movement and what you actually do during the combat gives you much more control over the combat in compare to MMORPGS where you have fixed target and just press buttons.
You actually said button smashing is actually much more "smart" than the system in DDo? You either did not fully understand the combat system in DDo or setting a fixed target and then pressing the same buttons over and over is heavily demanding on your intellect, or the combination of both.
REALITY CHECK
It is simply amazing how many people willa rgue adn deny such basic immutable facts about the game. If you love the game as it is then why must you argue it is not as it is to defend it?
Bottom line:
It is Dungeons and Dragons. Not an FPS. The PLAYERS skill has zip, zero, nada, to do with the character's ability to accomplish tasks. The skills that the character has determines that. Its the way AD&D has always worked. It's simply amazing how many people argue about a game mechanic that's innate to the title: Dungeons & Dragons. It is what it is. Don't sit here and argue that it doesn't work right, because it does. Just because you'd prefer it be done differently doesn't mean it's working 'wrong'.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
Bottom line:
It is Dungeons and Dragons. Not an FPS. The PLAYERS skill has zip, zero, nada, to do with the character's ability to accomplish tasks. The skills that the character has determines that. Its the way AD&D has always worked. It's simply amazing how many people argue about a game mechanic that's innate to the title: Dungeons & Dragons. It is what it is. Don't sit here and argue that it doesn't work right, because it does. Just because you'd prefer it be done differently doesn't mean it's working 'wrong'.
Fair enough - but it makes for a video game with serious issues is what I am saying. And as many people know they have cheated the D&D rules quite a bit to toughen it up as it was getting waxed early on by players. So you get a bad video game with a stacked version of the D&D rules as well. It is little ownder the gaming public has largely rejected the game and populations remain very small.
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