Sorry, but Ryzom was really retarded. Pick a "class" from a typical MMO. For the first 50 levels, you only have 1 skill for that chosen class. And no, you cannot really use the other skills at the same time. It's a bit more like FFXI's job system than a true skill system.
A real skill system would be using many separate skills at once, like parrying, power attack, endurance, etc, rather than simply, "two handed axe".
This is, of course, to say nothing of the pretty lackluster special attack offerings of Ryzom.
Eve has a pretty good skill system, except for how advancement being totally time-based.
We already have plenty of class & skill-based MMOs. How do you think you skill up your weapon and crafting skills in World of Warcraft for example? They used a minimum use based system. This is pretty common, most MMORPGs allow crafting to be skilled up in this manner along with weapon skills If you going to force me into a Class well there goes the sandbox element of building my character. That is usually not what people have in mind when we look for a skill-based game.
Well, vajuras, here's the way I see it.
It's pointless to talk about high concept regarding skills versus classes in a MMORPG. In reality, even when you find one or the other, flexibility seems to be based more on how well-built the game is and how much freedom the developers wanted you to have.
For instance, a shittily designed skill-based game won't give you real freedom because many skills will be too similar to offer real variety and some of the exotic options may simply be nonviable. On the flipside, I've played some great class-based games which essentially let you build your entire character from nothing. Guild Wars, for instance, lets you choose all of the skills you can use from a much larger pool, so builds vary wildly. Many choose to go cookie-cutter, but they aren't locked into doing so, nor is a good player using a nonconventional build inferior to them. To me, that's more freedom than simply being able to grind up fishing one day and ogregnawing another day on the same character.
I will agree that most games don't even try nowadays. Look at WoW. 99% of arena players are using a small set of builds that are considered viable, so that's even less freedom in a game that already gives you a ton of choice. For raiding, you have even less choice. Nobody wants a guy who is putting forth a subpar contribution just for the sake of personal variety. That has the effect of even shutting down classes. For instance, it's simple mathematical reality that a warlock at higher tiers will out-DPS a mage. And yeah, there are guilds out there who simply pass over all mages on raids that don't need their kind of CC, for that reason.
Sorry, but Ryzom was really retarded. Pick a "class" from a typical MMO. For the first 50 levels, you only have 1 skill for that chosen class. And no, you cannot really use the other skills at the same time. It's a bit more like FFXI's job system than a true skill system. A real skill system would be using many separate skills at once, like parrying, power attack, endurance, etc, rather than simply, "two handed axe". This is, of course, to say nothing of the pretty lackluster special attack offerings of Ryzom. Eve has a pretty good skill system, except for how advancement being totally time-based.
I was under the impression you could mix the two. Like wear light armor but stll cast magic. I'm still a lowbie tho. other day was swinging my sword and casting bolts was able to tankmage. Just that I was tanking less then a specialized heavy armor tank and spells hit less harder then a specialized mage with a magic amp on
We already have plenty of class & skill-based MMOs. How do you think you skill up your weapon and crafting skills in World of Warcraft for example? They used a minimum use based system. This is pretty common, most MMORPGs allow crafting to be skilled up in this manner along with weapon skills If you going to force me into a Class well there goes the sandbox element of building my character. That is usually not what people have in mind when we look for a skill-based game.
Well, vajuras, here's the way I see it.
It's pointless to talk about high concept regarding skills versus classes in a MMORPG. In reality, even when you find one or the other, flexibility seems to be based more on how well-built the game is and how much freedom the developers wanted you to have.
For instance, a shittily designed skill-based game won't give you real freedom because many skills will be too similar to offer real variety and some of the exotic options may simply be nonviable. On the flipside, I've played some great class-based games which essentially let you build your entire character from nothing. Guild Wars, for instance, lets you choose all of the skills you can use from a much larger pool, so builds vary wildly. Many choose to go cookie-cutter, but they aren't locked into doing so, nor is a good player using a nonconventional build inferior to them. To me, that's more freedom than simply being able to grind up fishing one day and ogregnawing another day on the same character.
I will agree that most games don't even try nowadays. Look at WoW. 99% of arena players are using a small set of builds that are considered viable, so that's even less freedom in a game that already gives you a ton of choice. For raiding, you have even less choice. Nobody wants a guy who is putting forth a subpar contribution just for the sake of personal variety. That has the effect of even shutting down classes. For instance, it's simple mathematical reality that a warlock at higher tiers will out-DPS a mage. And yeah, there are guilds out there who simply pass over all mages on raids that don't need their kind of CC, for that reason.
The freedom granted by skill-based games allow you to dynamically build your own character you really want to play. If you want to be a pure crafter--- cool, you can do that.
If you want to be a pure fisher, cool you can do that too
Guild Wars follows an anti-sandbox mentality. There isnt any crafting at all. No fishing. No ability to be a pure crafter. No ability to be a Mesmer / Ele / War to your hearts content. No ability to assign how strong you want to be many disciplines on one avatar. It's not really no where near onpar with EVE Online where my avatar is so vast it would take you many minutes to look at his composition
It's a great game but no way it should touch a skill-based title constructed properly in scope and depth and limitless combinations
We already have plenty of class & skill-based MMOs. How do you think you skill up your weapon and crafting skills in World of Warcraft for example? ....
Skilling up crafting in WOW seems to consist to a large extent to purchasing the raws on the auction and hitting a button while you go watch TV.
I never said WoW had best crafting system or anything. I would enjoy being able to develop my own recipe and just make something. And I for sure not down for Levels being attached to Items.
I never said WoW had best crafting system or anything. I would enjoy being able to develop my own recipe and just make something. And I for sure not down for Levels being attached to Items.
While I can see the reasons behind level restrictions, overall it points out that devs have not been able to think out of the box for past 8 years.
All games (with the sole exception of AC1 that I know of) have these kind of restrictions, and IMO it is just a lazy way to setup a game. Just for one example, in WOW I can catch fish X at level 30, I can cook it at level 35, but I can't eat the stoopid fish until I am level 40?? Like WTH - I can cook oatmeal at age 10 but I can'[t eat it until I am 15?
It is probably more difficult to make a true skill based sandbox MMO, but the first one that does it will finally be the death of WOW and other traditional grind games. Not that I expect that to happen anytime soon.
Comments
Sorry, but Ryzom was really retarded. Pick a "class" from a typical MMO. For the first 50 levels, you only have 1 skill for that chosen class. And no, you cannot really use the other skills at the same time. It's a bit more like FFXI's job system than a true skill system.
A real skill system would be using many separate skills at once, like parrying, power attack, endurance, etc, rather than simply, "two handed axe".
This is, of course, to say nothing of the pretty lackluster special attack offerings of Ryzom.
Eve has a pretty good skill system, except for how advancement being totally time-based.
Well, vajuras, here's the way I see it.
It's pointless to talk about high concept regarding skills versus classes in a MMORPG. In reality, even when you find one or the other, flexibility seems to be based more on how well-built the game is and how much freedom the developers wanted you to have.
For instance, a shittily designed skill-based game won't give you real freedom because many skills will be too similar to offer real variety and some of the exotic options may simply be nonviable. On the flipside, I've played some great class-based games which essentially let you build your entire character from nothing. Guild Wars, for instance, lets you choose all of the skills you can use from a much larger pool, so builds vary wildly. Many choose to go cookie-cutter, but they aren't locked into doing so, nor is a good player using a nonconventional build inferior to them. To me, that's more freedom than simply being able to grind up fishing one day and ogregnawing another day on the same character.
I will agree that most games don't even try nowadays. Look at WoW. 99% of arena players are using a small set of builds that are considered viable, so that's even less freedom in a game that already gives you a ton of choice. For raiding, you have even less choice. Nobody wants a guy who is putting forth a subpar contribution just for the sake of personal variety. That has the effect of even shutting down classes. For instance, it's simple mathematical reality that a warlock at higher tiers will out-DPS a mage. And yeah, there are guilds out there who simply pass over all mages on raids that don't need their kind of CC, for that reason.
I was under the impression you could mix the two. Like wear light armor but stll cast magic. I'm still a lowbie tho. other day was swinging my sword and casting bolts was able to tankmage. Just that I was tanking less then a specialized heavy armor tank and spells hit less harder then a specialized mage with a magic amp on
Well, vajuras, here's the way I see it.
It's pointless to talk about high concept regarding skills versus classes in a MMORPG. In reality, even when you find one or the other, flexibility seems to be based more on how well-built the game is and how much freedom the developers wanted you to have.
For instance, a shittily designed skill-based game won't give you real freedom because many skills will be too similar to offer real variety and some of the exotic options may simply be nonviable. On the flipside, I've played some great class-based games which essentially let you build your entire character from nothing. Guild Wars, for instance, lets you choose all of the skills you can use from a much larger pool, so builds vary wildly. Many choose to go cookie-cutter, but they aren't locked into doing so, nor is a good player using a nonconventional build inferior to them. To me, that's more freedom than simply being able to grind up fishing one day and ogregnawing another day on the same character.
I will agree that most games don't even try nowadays. Look at WoW. 99% of arena players are using a small set of builds that are considered viable, so that's even less freedom in a game that already gives you a ton of choice. For raiding, you have even less choice. Nobody wants a guy who is putting forth a subpar contribution just for the sake of personal variety. That has the effect of even shutting down classes. For instance, it's simple mathematical reality that a warlock at higher tiers will out-DPS a mage. And yeah, there are guilds out there who simply pass over all mages on raids that don't need their kind of CC, for that reason.
The freedom granted by skill-based games allow you to dynamically build your own character you really want to play. If you want to be a pure crafter--- cool, you can do that.
If you want to be a pure fisher, cool you can do that too
Guild Wars follows an anti-sandbox mentality. There isnt any crafting at all. No fishing. No ability to be a pure crafter. No ability to be a Mesmer / Ele / War to your hearts content. No ability to assign how strong you want to be many disciplines on one avatar. It's not really no where near onpar with EVE Online where my avatar is so vast it would take you many minutes to look at his composition
It's a great game but no way it should touch a skill-based title constructed properly in scope and depth and limitless combinations
Skilling up crafting in WOW seems to consist to a large extent to purchasing the raws on the auction and hitting a button while you go watch TV.
I never said WoW had best crafting system or anything. I would enjoy being able to develop my own recipe and just make something. And I for sure not down for Levels being attached to Items.
While I can see the reasons behind level restrictions, overall it points out that devs have not been able to think out of the box for past 8 years.
All games (with the sole exception of AC1 that I know of) have these kind of restrictions, and IMO it is just a lazy way to setup a game. Just for one example, in WOW I can catch fish X at level 30, I can cook it at level 35, but I can't eat the stoopid fish until I am level 40?? Like WTH - I can cook oatmeal at age 10 but I can'[t eat it until I am 15?
It is probably more difficult to make a true skill based sandbox MMO, but the first one that does it will finally be the death of WOW and other traditional grind games. Not that I expect that to happen anytime soon.