I think the dichotomy is wrong. As others have said here, PvP and crafting need not be mutually opposed. Not only that, but if you look at similar games (EVE and SWG), the best crafters and the best PvPers were often part of the same guild.
To me, the dichotomies at stake are as follows:
Small, family or theme style guilds versus large, game hopping professionalized guilds
Caual "in it for the fun" players versus professionalized "in it for the status" players
Text-only players versus mandatory ventrillo players
Roleplayers versus powergamers
Slow players versus grinders
See, the Crusades staff is under the impression that the players who PvP aren't in the same circles as the players who create gear. What they don't realize is that the big, professionalized, mandatory Teamspeak/Vent, hardcore, multi-platform clans have the out of game organizational potential to do both, and do both at a level that casual, roleplaying, slow playing individuals will never match. So to me, the biggest challenge for a game like Crusades is to ensure that the game gives line subscribers enough reasons to play, knowing full well that professional online gaming clans are going to dominate in all aspects of play.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
If neutral zones, whether neutral faction enforced or PvP prohibited, existed, it might help prevent the forced PvP from being overly abused. Whether these are free trade centers or starter areas doesn't matter, it gives everyone a place to go when they really do not want to PvP. Either eliminate the resource spawns in those areas or make them low end starter materials to prevent players from exploiting the safe havens. As others have posted, if the game is centered around PvP conflict, then non-PvP'ers already know this when they start the game and know what to expect. Offering safe havens helps offset tensions and a bad rep for a gank-fest game.
As for who whines the most, that has to be the PvP'ers. Most of the forums I read for crafting are about making crafted gear equal to looted gear or to allow crafters the ability to upgrade looted gear. Either that or to fix broken or worthless crafting skills. When it comes to PvP'ers, every class forum seems to be a flame war where people are saying their classes need to be enhanced to make them balanced in PvP and every other class is posting there saying how they are either lame or already over-powered.
Crafting forums I will visit to see what mats I need for items, or to see what might be released in future updates. I do not visit class forums due to having to sort thru 3 pages of begging for enhancements flame fests just to find one post on how to deal with class downfalls or gear drops.
FatalFXVizual F/X Studios Community DirectorMemberPosts: 21
Originally posted by Alindale
If neutral zones, whether neutral faction enforced or PvP prohibited, existed, it might help prevent the forced PvP from being overly abused. Whether these are free trade centers or starter areas doesn't matter, it gives everyone a place to go when they really do not want to PvP. Either eliminate the resource spawns in those areas or make them low end starter materials to prevent players from exploiting the safe havens. As others have posted, if the game is centered around PvP conflict, then non-PvP'ers already know this when they start the game and know what to expect. Offering safe havens helps offset tensions and a bad rep for a gank-fest game. As for who whines the most, that has to be the PvP'ers. Most of the forums I read for crafting are about making crafted gear equal to looted gear or to allow crafters the ability to upgrade looted gear. Either that or to fix broken or worthless crafting skills. When it comes to PvP'ers, every class forum seems to be a flame war where people are saying their classes need to be enhanced to make them balanced in PvP and every other class is posting there saying how they are either lame or already over-powered. Crafting forums I will visit to see what mats I need for items, or to see what might be released in future updates. I do not visit class forums due to having to sort thru 3 pages of begging for enhancements flame fests just to find one post on how to deal with class downfalls or gear drops.
Good points and suggestions Alindale. We appreciate solution ideas. Would you mind posting some of these on our wish list?
If neutral zones, whether neutral faction enforced or PvP prohibited, existed, it might help prevent the forced PvP from being overly abused. Whether these are free trade centers or starter areas doesn't matter, it gives everyone a place to go when they really do not want to PvP. Either eliminate the resource spawns in those areas or make them low end starter materials to prevent players from exploiting the safe havens. As others have posted, if the game is centered around PvP conflict, then non-PvP'ers already know this when they start the game and know what to expect. Offering safe havens helps offset tensions and a bad rep for a gank-fest game. As for who whines the most, that has to be the PvP'ers. Most of the forums I read for crafting are about making crafted gear equal to looted gear or to allow crafters the ability to upgrade looted gear. Either that or to fix broken or worthless crafting skills. When it comes to PvP'ers, every class forum seems to be a flame war where people are saying their classes need to be enhanced to make them balanced in PvP and every other class is posting there saying how they are either lame or already over-powered. Crafting forums I will visit to see what mats I need for items, or to see what might be released in future updates. I do not visit class forums due to having to sort thru 3 pages of begging for enhancements flame fests just to find one post on how to deal with class downfalls or gear drops.
I don't agree, people complaining about crafting balance are doing so because they see that skill as being marginalized by the system and not because they want to craft stuff for PvP. It doesn't matter whether you PvP or not, but if you have to invest time and effort into crafting, you expect to get something out of it - you don't expect to have someone who can farm an instance get better gear than you can make even after spending obscene amounts of time crafting.
As for the whole PvP versus PvE discussion, I've played both sides of the fence and I've come to a few conclusions over the years and different games I've played:
1) Gankers will take every advantage they can get in PvP, whether it is fair or not - such as attacking you while you are attacking another mob, or abusing glitches to get a kill above their ability. Even if they are unable to 'con' you, they will take whatever steps are neccessary to get an advantage over you, fully devoting their time to such endevors, while those that wish to enjoy the game and take in other aspects of the game will be at some point or another vulnerable (even when they think they are not).
2) If you are trying to accomplish something completely unrelated to PvP it is jarring to be interrupted, slowed down, and possibly killed by someone who wants to show off his epeen. Jarring in a not so good of a way most of the time - and that most of time out weighs any of the joys you get from the few times where you are able to put your boot to the jerks face, or where you deserved it.
3) Total open FFAPvP does not work - for open PvP to work there has to be real consequences to your actions, and as long as this is just a game there will NEVER be any real consequences to those who want to be a jackarse. You can say what you want about groups and forcing the carebears to group together, but in practice it does not work. Name a game where it has worked before? I can name a few where it hasn't (cough, uo, cough).
4) Newbs need to be protected by the system - not by other players. If not, then you will have a lot of cancellations and frustrated players. You cannot put pros up against newbs within a system of progression and expect the newbs to have fun. You have to be relatively safe while you are learing the system and learning how to interact with the world so as to not frustrate you more than is neccessary.
5) Putting meaningful consequences for PvP death is a bad thing. Because of point #1, those that are not intending to PvP will be the ones paying for this. For this reason on games that have severe penalties, you find people not taking valuable gear with them. This devalues the whole system and de-incentivizes the whole economy. If you need examples look to again UO and more recently Pirates of the Burning Sea. Players wouldn't normally go to port battles with their biggest ships since their cost of replacement was exponentially higher and would be lost if they died in battle. Putting these consequences in does nothing to deter griefers, and instead serves to fuel their ability to make people hate them and the game.
In short, when you have PvP in a game that is not solely about the PvP action (even there is support options such as crafting), if you want your players to enjoy the game you'll need to focus the PvP action around PvP objectives and areas, and leave the other aspects of the game not directly touched by PvP. That doesn't mean that you have to restrict your PvP to just killing other players on an open field, you can still have mobs and PvEish content, but you need to focus that content to be part of the PvP experience. PvE content in general should be PvP free (or provided as consentual pvp). You need to have a way to experience the non-PvP content in an environment safe from PvP without having to rely on other people.
As for the Crusades and their particular implementation - I don't know how well that will work, but I suspect it will not work so well. Players that want to trade and craft will get raided by those who wish to grief. Those who grief will at some point or another have bigger/better/faster ships, unless perhaps you have specs where even at low levels you can outrun any ship that could kill you - and if that was the case you'd have other problems in the game design.
Yes some times there will be banding together to fend off the pirates, and the battle mentioned will happen at some point - but the rest of the time its either going to be nothing going on or more likely it'll be a group of hungry gorillas making sticky with a single ewe. But who knows, maybe I'm wrong - maybe there'll be some protections in place to keep that from happening?
Edit: What I wish to see is a result of PvP area fighting spilling over in PvE terms - ie. you capture an enemy supply base in a PvP zone and in the neighboring enemy PvE area a group of NPC mobs spawns that patrol?
Discovered an interesting thread on Ten Ton Hammer forums about the FFA PvP potential in 'Crusades' for a situation to escalate into an all-out showdown between Carebears and PvP'rs.
Quote: Rocinante, Ten Ton Hammer thread: "...after reading the forums and FAQ - I realized that there will be no effective way to blockade runs in and out of planets and galaxies because there are no jumpgates - it's all freespace! On top of this, is the fact that everywhere outside of the homeworld is open PvP space, but yet the resources needed for players to colonize and build Outposts into 'Civs' exists exponentially but again - in PvP space! "
"On that thought, Carebear players will need to form large guilds in order to protect their 'Civs' and we all know how much time they spend crafting. Thus, they will most likely have the best crafted items which the PvP'rs will enjoy looting - and that will force the Carebears to unite and fight. This could very well be gaming history in the sense that it may escalate into major confrontations between the two. PvP'rs won't survive and have the best weapons, planetary defenses, and spacecraft if they stop feeding off of the Carebears, and Carebears won't tolerate being attacked everywhere they go. Thus we have a Yin & Yang of Carebear vs. PvP'r in a final showdown - and it's probably long overdue."
Such a final showdown between the two long established player bases gets me thinking about which side would come out on top? For indeed, they are the 'Yin and Yang' of MMO gamers. They depend upon one another for resources - like a food chain. In an ever expanding universe, with FFA PvP, the setting is ripe for micro and macro clan domination. Perhaps this score could be settled? Would the community like to see support for such a confrontation or leave it to the gamers to evolve?
Carebears won't play this game. If they do, they are PvP'ers, not Carebears.
There will never again be Carebears vs PvP'ers in MMO's, because carebears can go to an MMORPG where they don't have to PvP, and that's the end of that.
I just want a non instanced nor factioned, FFA PvP group oriented with big team objectives to develop politics and drama and with sage rules and consequences.
Non dependant on the fast fingers ability, more focused on group and massive groups strategies and tactics. Totaly UNbalanced by classes on the 1vs1.
It have to be done In a seamless world. Fully of great PvE activity. Whitout the need for two different sets of equipment. Where crafting and economy its something
Well this is my dreamed MMORPG i dont see in it this difference between PvPers and PvEers. I will love a MMORPG where all the letters of the word have this meaning.
But i know it isn't what the majority want, this thread its just a prouve of it.
I just want a non instanced nor factioned, FFA PvP group oriented with big team objectives to develop politics and drama and with sage rules and consequences. Non dependant on the fast fingers ability, more focused on group and massive groups strategies and tactics. Totaly UNbalanced by classes on the 1vs1. It have to be done In a seamless world. Fully of great PvE activity. Whitout the need for two different sets of equipment. Where crafting and economy its something Well this is my dreamed MMORPG i dont see in it this difference between PvPers and PvEers. I will love a MMORPG where all the letters of the word have this meaning. But i know it isn't what the majority want, this thread its just a prouve of it.
You just described Shadowbane.
Graphically speaking, one of the worst out there, but no other game offers even a remotely similar experience.
I just want a non instanced nor factioned, FFA PvP group oriented with big team objectives to develop politics and drama and with sage rules and consequences. Non dependant on the fast fingers ability, more focused on group and massive groups strategies and tactics. Totaly UNbalanced by classes on the 1vs1. It have to be done In a seamless world. Fully of great PvE activity. Whitout the need for two different sets of equipment. Where crafting and economy its something Well this is my dreamed MMORPG i dont see in it this difference between PvPers and PvEers. I will love a MMORPG where all the letters of the word have this meaning. But i know it isn't what the majority want, this thread its just a prouve of it.
You just described Shadowbane.
Graphically speaking, one of the worst out there, but no other game offers even a remotely similar experience.
Shadowbane was on hte right track, but had some serious flaws. Point n' click movement, and horrible lag for starters.
The biggest flaw was it took too much grinding to build a city, and it was to easy to tear a city down. Who wants to work for week or more to build a city, and then watch it be torn down in an evening? That's no fun.
I just want a non instanced nor factioned, FFA PvP group oriented with big team objectives to develop politics and drama and with sage rules and consequences. Non dependant on the fast fingers ability, more focused on group and massive groups strategies and tactics. Totaly UNbalanced by classes on the 1vs1. It have to be done In a seamless world. Fully of great PvE activity. Whitout the need for two different sets of equipment. Where crafting and economy its something Well this is my dreamed MMORPG i dont see in it this difference between PvPers and PvEers. I will love a MMORPG where all the letters of the word have this meaning. But i know it isn't what the majority want, this thread its just a prouve of it.
You just described Shadowbane.
Graphically speaking, one of the worst out there, but no other game offers even a remotely similar experience.
Shadowbane was on hte right track, but had some serious flaws. Point n' click movement, and horrible lag for starters. The biggest flaw was it took too much grinding to build a city, and it was to easy to tear a city down. Who wants to work for week or more to build a city, and then watch it be torn down in an evening? That's no fun.
Actually, I believe Shadowbane's biggest flaw is the fact you can be killed anywhere by anyone no matter what, as well as the Assassin(Might be Thief) and Scout classes being outright overpowered. What could I do when I was killed by an out-of-site scout sitting there until I started fighting mobs then slamming me with arrows and snaring me all for the sake of looting some potions from my backpack and making me have to run all the way to a different leveling spot. This happened at least 8 times and there was nothing I could do about it.
How many times have I heard this idiotic rant? I guess people just aren't content with respecting other people's play styles. In my experiences, I fear, the so-called "Hardcores" whine much more than the so-called "Carebears". These topics usually turn into pointless flame wars, anyway.
I'm going to agree with Arcken, his MMO would be a perfectly plausible albeit rather hard to do and risky concept. I also wholly agree with Rammur, best logic I usually hear on these kinds of topics.
I think it's the objective of your past self to make you cringe.
I like to mix pve and pvp. I think they should be seperate areas like daoc had it. For the most part, pvp is "carebear" anyways. Even if it is full loot, people just wear crap gear and replace it easily. Now, if you want true hardcore pvp, you need perma death. I would make the perma death for pvp only and not pve, but the rewards for success would be high too, so people have the whole risk vs reward scenario. Could even do like you have 5 deaths maybe or you gain an extra death after 10 or 20 kills. That will encourage people to use their best gear in pvp, and not to be griefers for risk of losing everything. Of course there could be more griefing, but that could backfire, especially if people level high enough.
It would be very tough to do, but if done well, could have a solid game, pvp with or without pve. Without that fear of consequence like people have in real life, who cares if someone loses some cheap crap gear they can remake.
If you don't want a perma death, because I can see how they could be bad for business, a reduction in stats for a certain amount of time (long) like a day could give people pause. Even people are dumb enough, they could end up with 0 stats. Also, the gankers, griefers should get flagged and perhaps have elite npc guards go out and track them, spawning at various times if they're on.
There must be some consequence for people to just gang up with a dozen people to kill a bunch of people several levels lower or while trying to level. That is why most pvp games don't really work out. The "carebears" get fed up of little punk 12 year olds ganking while theyre engaged on a mob. And as I said before, full loot is really no consequence.
I just dont get why you have FFA pvp game and think your gonna get a bunch of crafters to buy it.I would for sure if you had a seperat pve server with a few pvp zones but to think im gonna be dodging bullets just so i can make a helmet some guys is gonna loot off of me after he kills me? no way. why not have a toggle like SWG had? If you think your tuff or badass and wanna fight,flag up and go look for trouble.
Well let's put it this way. Every FFA PVP game has died on the vine so to speak, mainly because the creators can only put up with the destroyers for so long and just move on.
Guess you've never heard of L1, L2, Eve, UO, AC1 DT etc...?
Comments
I think the dichotomy is wrong. As others have said here, PvP and crafting need not be mutually opposed. Not only that, but if you look at similar games (EVE and SWG), the best crafters and the best PvPers were often part of the same guild.
To me, the dichotomies at stake are as follows:
Small, family or theme style guilds versus large, game hopping professionalized guilds
Caual "in it for the fun" players versus professionalized "in it for the status" players
Text-only players versus mandatory ventrillo players
Roleplayers versus powergamers
Slow players versus grinders
See, the Crusades staff is under the impression that the players who PvP aren't in the same circles as the players who create gear. What they don't realize is that the big, professionalized, mandatory Teamspeak/Vent, hardcore, multi-platform clans have the out of game organizational potential to do both, and do both at a level that casual, roleplaying, slow playing individuals will never match. So to me, the biggest challenge for a game like Crusades is to ensure that the game gives line subscribers enough reasons to play, knowing full well that professional online gaming clans are going to dominate in all aspects of play.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
FIXT
If neutral zones, whether neutral faction enforced or PvP prohibited, existed, it might help prevent the forced PvP from being overly abused. Whether these are free trade centers or starter areas doesn't matter, it gives everyone a place to go when they really do not want to PvP. Either eliminate the resource spawns in those areas or make them low end starter materials to prevent players from exploiting the safe havens. As others have posted, if the game is centered around PvP conflict, then non-PvP'ers already know this when they start the game and know what to expect. Offering safe havens helps offset tensions and a bad rep for a gank-fest game.
As for who whines the most, that has to be the PvP'ers. Most of the forums I read for crafting are about making crafted gear equal to looted gear or to allow crafters the ability to upgrade looted gear. Either that or to fix broken or worthless crafting skills. When it comes to PvP'ers, every class forum seems to be a flame war where people are saying their classes need to be enhanced to make them balanced in PvP and every other class is posting there saying how they are either lame or already over-powered.
Crafting forums I will visit to see what mats I need for items, or to see what might be released in future updates. I do not visit class forums due to having to sort thru 3 pages of begging for enhancements flame fests just to find one post on how to deal with class downfalls or gear drops.
Good points and suggestions Alindale. We appreciate solution ideas. Would you mind posting some of these on our wish list?
I don't agree, people complaining about crafting balance are doing so because they see that skill as being marginalized by the system and not because they want to craft stuff for PvP. It doesn't matter whether you PvP or not, but if you have to invest time and effort into crafting, you expect to get something out of it - you don't expect to have someone who can farm an instance get better gear than you can make even after spending obscene amounts of time crafting.
As for the whole PvP versus PvE discussion, I've played both sides of the fence and I've come to a few conclusions over the years and different games I've played:
1) Gankers will take every advantage they can get in PvP, whether it is fair or not - such as attacking you while you are attacking another mob, or abusing glitches to get a kill above their ability. Even if they are unable to 'con' you, they will take whatever steps are neccessary to get an advantage over you, fully devoting their time to such endevors, while those that wish to enjoy the game and take in other aspects of the game will be at some point or another vulnerable (even when they think they are not).
2) If you are trying to accomplish something completely unrelated to PvP it is jarring to be interrupted, slowed down, and possibly killed by someone who wants to show off his epeen. Jarring in a not so good of a way most of the time - and that most of time out weighs any of the joys you get from the few times where you are able to put your boot to the jerks face, or where you deserved it.
3) Total open FFAPvP does not work - for open PvP to work there has to be real consequences to your actions, and as long as this is just a game there will NEVER be any real consequences to those who want to be a jackarse. You can say what you want about groups and forcing the carebears to group together, but in practice it does not work. Name a game where it has worked before? I can name a few where it hasn't (cough, uo, cough).
4) Newbs need to be protected by the system - not by other players. If not, then you will have a lot of cancellations and frustrated players. You cannot put pros up against newbs within a system of progression and expect the newbs to have fun. You have to be relatively safe while you are learing the system and learning how to interact with the world so as to not frustrate you more than is neccessary.
5) Putting meaningful consequences for PvP death is a bad thing. Because of point #1, those that are not intending to PvP will be the ones paying for this. For this reason on games that have severe penalties, you find people not taking valuable gear with them. This devalues the whole system and de-incentivizes the whole economy. If you need examples look to again UO and more recently Pirates of the Burning Sea. Players wouldn't normally go to port battles with their biggest ships since their cost of replacement was exponentially higher and would be lost if they died in battle. Putting these consequences in does nothing to deter griefers, and instead serves to fuel their ability to make people hate them and the game.
In short, when you have PvP in a game that is not solely about the PvP action (even there is support options such as crafting), if you want your players to enjoy the game you'll need to focus the PvP action around PvP objectives and areas, and leave the other aspects of the game not directly touched by PvP. That doesn't mean that you have to restrict your PvP to just killing other players on an open field, you can still have mobs and PvEish content, but you need to focus that content to be part of the PvP experience. PvE content in general should be PvP free (or provided as consentual pvp). You need to have a way to experience the non-PvP content in an environment safe from PvP without having to rely on other people.
As for the Crusades and their particular implementation - I don't know how well that will work, but I suspect it will not work so well. Players that want to trade and craft will get raided by those who wish to grief. Those who grief will at some point or another have bigger/better/faster ships, unless perhaps you have specs where even at low levels you can outrun any ship that could kill you - and if that was the case you'd have other problems in the game design.
Yes some times there will be banding together to fend off the pirates, and the battle mentioned will happen at some point - but the rest of the time its either going to be nothing going on or more likely it'll be a group of hungry gorillas making sticky with a single ewe. But who knows, maybe I'm wrong - maybe there'll be some protections in place to keep that from happening?
Edit: What I wish to see is a result of PvP area fighting spilling over in PvE terms - ie. you capture an enemy supply base in a PvP zone and in the neighboring enemy PvE area a group of NPC mobs spawns that patrol?
Carebears won't play this game. If they do, they are PvP'ers, not Carebears.
There will never again be Carebears vs PvP'ers in MMO's, because carebears can go to an MMORPG where they don't have to PvP, and that's the end of that.
I just want a non instanced nor factioned, FFA PvP group oriented with big team objectives to develop politics and drama and with sage rules and consequences.
Non dependant on the fast fingers ability, more focused on group and massive groups strategies and tactics. Totaly UNbalanced by classes on the 1vs1.
It have to be done In a seamless world. Fully of great PvE activity. Whitout the need for two different sets of equipment. Where crafting and economy its something
Well this is my dreamed MMORPG i dont see in it this difference between PvPers and PvEers. I will love a MMORPG where all the letters of the word have this meaning.
But i know it isn't what the majority want, this thread its just a prouve of it.
You just described Shadowbane.
Graphically speaking, one of the worst out there, but no other game offers even a remotely similar experience.
You just described Shadowbane.
Graphically speaking, one of the worst out there, but no other game offers even a remotely similar experience.
Shadowbane was on hte right track, but had some serious flaws. Point n' click movement, and horrible lag for starters.
The biggest flaw was it took too much grinding to build a city, and it was to easy to tear a city down. Who wants to work for week or more to build a city, and then watch it be torn down in an evening? That's no fun.
Actually, I believe Shadowbane's biggest flaw is the fact you can be killed anywhere by anyone no matter what, as well as the Assassin(Might be Thief) and Scout classes being outright overpowered. What could I do when I was killed by an out-of-site scout sitting there until I started fighting mobs then slamming me with arrows and snaring me all for the sake of looting some potions from my backpack and making me have to run all the way to a different leveling spot. This happened at least 8 times and there was nothing I could do about it.
How many times have I heard this idiotic rant? I guess people just aren't content with respecting other people's play styles. In my experiences, I fear, the so-called "Hardcores" whine much more than the so-called "Carebears". These topics usually turn into pointless flame wars, anyway.
I'm going to agree with Arcken, his MMO would be a perfectly plausible albeit rather hard to do and risky concept. I also wholly agree with Rammur, best logic I usually hear on these kinds of topics.
I think it's the objective of your past self to make you cringe.
I like to mix pve and pvp. I think they should be seperate areas like daoc had it. For the most part, pvp is "carebear" anyways. Even if it is full loot, people just wear crap gear and replace it easily. Now, if you want true hardcore pvp, you need perma death. I would make the perma death for pvp only and not pve, but the rewards for success would be high too, so people have the whole risk vs reward scenario. Could even do like you have 5 deaths maybe or you gain an extra death after 10 or 20 kills. That will encourage people to use their best gear in pvp, and not to be griefers for risk of losing everything. Of course there could be more griefing, but that could backfire, especially if people level high enough.
It would be very tough to do, but if done well, could have a solid game, pvp with or without pve. Without that fear of consequence like people have in real life, who cares if someone loses some cheap crap gear they can remake.
If you don't want a perma death, because I can see how they could be bad for business, a reduction in stats for a certain amount of time (long) like a day could give people pause. Even people are dumb enough, they could end up with 0 stats. Also, the gankers, griefers should get flagged and perhaps have elite npc guards go out and track them, spawning at various times if they're on.
There must be some consequence for people to just gang up with a dozen people to kill a bunch of people several levels lower or while trying to level. That is why most pvp games don't really work out. The "carebears" get fed up of little punk 12 year olds ganking while theyre engaged on a mob. And as I said before, full loot is really no consequence.
Nicely put, though Full loot could annoy new players who do not have a reliable means of replacing equipment.
I think it's the objective of your past self to make you cringe.
Faction vs faction is a great answer to those who want to pvp and those who are not as enthusiastic about it.
I just dont get why you have FFA pvp game and think your gonna get a bunch of crafters to buy it.I would for sure if you had a seperat pve server with a few pvp zones but to think im gonna be dodging bullets just so i can make a helmet some guys is gonna loot off of me after he kills me? no way. why not have a toggle like SWG had? If you think your tuff or badass and wanna fight,flag up and go look for trouble.
Guess you've never heard of L1, L2, Eve, UO, AC1 DT etc...?