So to overcome grind...you replace the gear grind with a skill grind? gotcha.
Venge Sunsoar
wow, probably one of the most ill-informed posts I have ever seen on these boards.
on another note...how are you commenting on grind at all when you believe it all in our heads? heck i think you would understand the point of how DF has a lot less grind in it more than anyone.
So to overcome grind...you replace the gear grind with a skill grind? gotcha.
Venge Sunsoar
wow, probably one of the most ill-informed posts I have ever seen on these boards.
on another note...how are you commenting on grind at all when you believe it all in our heads? heck i think you would understand the point of how DF has a lot less grind in it more than anyone.
There is nothing uninformed about this.
1. He mentioned they would overcome the grind by having you become dependent on skill not gear, that is just a trade in grind, not overcoming anything.
2. Yes grind is perception, a repetitive monotonous task. Therefore a game can't ever really get rid of it, only the person.
3. I am uninformed and yet understand the point mroe than anyone... ok then.
Venge Sunsoar
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
First and foremost nice post, took some time to type I see, second Yes RIkii good one, If you guys want to talk about "DARkfail" then go to where people actually want to talk about it, the darkfall forum, were sick and tired of hearing of how great its gonna be, nobody knows ok.
And since you guys are so inclined to already crown Darkfall as a success, I think I too have a right to say how its going to epic fail, wanna know why? Because of the Darkfall Community. Take a gander over at the Darkfall Forums and you will see all the Gankers salivating at the mouths at the noobs that will come in just to get hacked to pieces again and again and again and again. So much that they will just cancel their subscription because they keep getting killed and loosing their stuff. how many people can honestly play this game year after year and just gank all day long, one , two, three years.... and with now many subs 200,000...500,000....1,000,000 happy gankers running around sticking knives at each other. Anyways enough about Darkfall like Rikii said keep it in the forums, pathetic game.
Back to the OP...very valid points, games are not open enough, click and point, crafting is limited, instancing, you can't go into first person with a bow and arch the arrow....and YES!!! NOT one single MMO out today has Evolved to the next greatest thing, were still stuck in the same RUT that we were stuck in since early 2001, BS I say! enough is enough. Pretty soon investors are gonna shy away from the MMO model innovative ideas will never be able to be funded because of atrocities like AOC.
Actually there is no good MMORPG today not one, not wow, not AOC , not vanguard, not EQ, Not lotr geez, look at all the money being spent here, what a waste! I can go on and on with bad MMO's, I'm sick and tired of these dam game companies wanting to push out garbage out into the public. Yah they want our Hard earned Money, and they also want US! to pay them Monthly for a Crappy game. How would you like it if you paid 15.00 for cable and (hypothetically) some channels went missing and you experienced a lost connection....you'de be pissed, but we can just pick up the phone and call the cable company, most of the time , problem is fixed ...but with these stupid game companies you have to put in a "request" until they can get to you... BS I'm tired of this genre, It's amazing almost 10 years of experience in this RPG model and we've gone in reverse, just amazing....I "HOPE" that all you beta testers for warhammer are not just oozing out your fanboism for Warhammer when I hear quotes like..."best MMorpg I have ever palyed" --"It's amazing" --I heard the same quotes about AOC beta testers and we all know how that panned out, "EPIC FAIL" oh, but Corporate America is happy, they got your money when you bought the box, bet they are jumping ship now, dam investors, hate them...ok I think im done here...anyways good post OP, but NO, Darkfail will not be our answer sorry....out
Wall of text is long, but yes I agree. There has been a severe shortage of Darkfall-type games over the past few years.
From what I've read / seen Darkfall will be a full loot gankfeast with nothing at all to keep the higher skill level players from camping the starter towns and repeatadley one shot killing and robbing you as soon as you set foot out of town, being there's no real stealth or invisability. Just the ability to try and hide behind object you can be sure getting out of the town will be a quest in itself as hiding will only be usfull for the gankers waiting to pwn you on your attempted run out of town.
Question being who all wants to kill pve rats in their skivies with their fists because they keep being ganked and robbed by players with more skill levels, and for how long? Totally open PVP with full loot eats itself as there really is that many people who live just to gank and grief, there isn't however that many people wanting to pay to be the playthings of the gankers.
At least the item less game have existed for 4 years: Guildwars. But yes, Darkfall sounds intresting but I wait until it's ready for release before deciding anything. I had heard before about games that sounds intresting just to change to crap before release.
And do beware of Guildwars 2, they do have some of the best programmers there is and the game will be a lot more customized than the first... And no monthly fees. The first did sell 5,5 million copies so my money is still on that they will deliver.
It is however good that someone really is trying to think out of the box, the next really big game will not be a EQ/Wow clone.
So to overcome grind...you replace the gear grind with a skill grind? gotcha.
Venge Sunsoar
Very true. I always find it funny how people go all boohoo about grinding and want a skill based game but you STILL have to grind in one way or another to get your skill up. Take UO for example, I was a long time UO player.. and I cant even remember how many hours a day I spent fireballing myself to get resist up an shit like that. Way to many fuckin hours tho I asure you that lol. About the best way to do it was macro skills and gain while you sleep or expliot a bug (like the blade spirit bug before they fixed it to get resist up).. but then you run the risk of getting your account banned an shit. I wasted more hours of my life trying to get 7xgm skills in UO than I ever have getting to max level in any other game. lol
Dont get me wrong I like skill based games. UO was the shit! But its still a grind no matter how you look at it in ANY game no matter if its skill based or level based. About the only way to get around the grind is if they give you max skills/level as soon as you start your character. But that would be lame. Sure they could just make leveling skills or levels up super fast and easy but then that would get kinda lame too.. cuz if there is no challenge.. whats the point of even playing?
When it comes to the grind there is no difference when it comes to..
"woot! finaly dinged 20!"
"woot! finaly got .5 more skill in (insert skill name here)"
Now im not bashing skill based games at all. They have good points to them over some level based games. Just saying when it comes to the grind its pretty much all the same.
Well no, you see the Darkfall Fanbois need people to gank to have fun, as such they need to try and convince others how great DF will be so they will try it and give the Fanbois more targets to gank/grief. Yeah perhaps thats a over simplification but I'd bet its at least 50% the truth weither they choose to believe it or not. (We need to save you all from those other bad MMO's! DF is the second coming, so come play it for us, oops i mean with us!)
So remember as the DF Fanbois say "Many people have visited and seen the game" ie well one guy this year, and one last year that posted, and yeah some unknown greek game mag. "the game play is awesume!" always a interesting statement considering that while a few claim to have seen the game no one has actually claimed to have played it. "its as Sandboxy as SWG ever was!" Why of course how could I have missed that truth from the video, and the faq which of course is 100% honest and correct.
In truth I do hope DF comes out, if the griefers and gankers have their own MMO maybe they will stay there. (not a big lose in my mind) While its not my gaming style and I don't really believe the ability to gank/loot someone much lower in power (skills/levels etc.) then you again and again = a mental challenge. I do believe any MMO that does well has the possiblity of growing the genre. More gamers generally = a good thing on the whole.
People are going to overhype this game and it will turn out to be like Warhammers beta and soon to be release; not as big as expected and not as good as expected.
I think Darkfall will be a pretty good game but really needs to stop being talked about until people get into open beta. Then they can give feedback and let us know how it is. I've seen a few in-game screenshots but yet proves nothing, atleast not about gameplay and how the graphics actually are on my computer.
I just think this game is being a little over-hyped. It's too early to tell if it will be AMAZING. I do think it will be pretty good, though.
So to overcome grind...you replace the gear grind with a skill grind? gotcha.
Venge Sunsoar
Very true. I always find it funny how people go all boohoo about grinding and want a skill based game but you STILL have to grind in one way or another to get your skill up. Take UO for example, I was a long time UO player.. and I cant even remember how many hours a day I spent fireballing myself to get resist up an shit like that. Way to many fuckin hours tho I asure you that lol. About the best way to do it was macro skills and gain while you sleep or expliot a bug (like the blade spirit bug before they fixed it to get resist up).. but then you run the risk of getting your account banned an shit. I wasted more hours of my life trying to get 7xgm skills in UO than I ever have getting to max level in any other game. lol
Dont get me wrong I like skill based games. UO was the shit! But its still a grind no matter how you look at it in ANY game no matter if its skill based or level based. About the only way to get around the grind is if they give you max skills/level as soon as you start your character. But that would be lame. Sure they could just make leveling skills or levels up super fast and easy but then that would get kinda lame too.. cuz if there is no challenge.. whats the point of even playing?
When it comes to the grind there is no difference when it comes to..
"woot! finaly dinged 20!"
"woot! finaly got .5 more skill in (insert skill name here)"
Now im not bashing skill based games at all. They have good points to them over some level based games. Just saying when it comes to the grind its pretty much all the same.
Apart from the various "shits" this is a very good critique of old-school skill based systems.
I hope a game will appear soon that'll do for skill-based games what WAR is doing right now for level-based ones. Removing the grind and frustration and putting fun back into the mix.
Sadly, I don't see Darkfall as doing anything even remotely close for it is painfully reactionary in its concept. EVE online was on the right track, as was Guild Wars. A next-gen revolutionary skill based game should take one step beyond these games and not take a long leisurely walk back to the "good old" UO days of grind, gank and grief..
My hopes are with Guild Wars 2... if they really do make "levels" cosmetical and keep the great skill-collecting advancement system. CCP's World of Darkness might work as well but there is very little known about it. Earthrise has an interesting take on the skill-based gameplay with hybrid FPS/RP combat system relying on hi-tech ranged weaponry. Sorry, but Darkfall looks really dated in concept compared to those games.
I think what it is really is that a lot of people are tired of the same cookie cutter MMOs out there WOW/EQ (insert clones) and want to get back to basic with the sandbox element type MMO's. As stated in a earlier post a grind is a grind.. to be honest I'd rather grind skills instead of levels and not be locked into a class, or not being grinind for shinies and uber gear that will be made obselete every expansion. Skill -based and full crafting in games is all you need even if it is a grind I'd rather grind skills I want to use instead of some games where some level based MMOs abilities dont get even touched perse...
And finally there are people that want a full-on FFA PVP Sandbox MMO, whats so wrong with not letting them have that type of game? It's not for purist PVE leave me alone type players the game I speak of you all know it but I wont say the name. Will give the freedom to these players to do what they want. But there are systems in place in this said game that wont allow the idiots to run the show , acutally they will end up being run out of the game. I'm not here to hype it or say its the greatest thing since sliced bread or even to flame . Im just saying people hype thier games , whether its AOC/WAR or whatever even what Im talking about. People have thier tastes in MMO's some want risky look over your shoulder type games , which are fun, and then there is the other option (stay safe and collect shinies and never make a impact in the games cause really its just a themepark.
Let the players have thier games which there are plenty of them and let us have our type of games with freedom like said game and other sandbox type games coming out soon ......
And finally there are people that want a full-on FFA PVP Sandbox MMO, whats so wrong with not letting them have that type of game?
Nothing! It would keep all the tards out of the games normal people play. Unfortunately for all of us normal people, Darkfall is going to be a massive failure.
You mean that we should keep the fanboism of all other games discussed here on the Pub in it's respective forum too?
Getting more attention to Darkfall is not a bad thing for the MMORPG genre.
I like the thought that all people interested in MMORPG could find the game they like and Darkfall will hopefully deliver a place for all the ones that have a problem finding a MMORPG that fits their playstyle.
To the OP. I agree to the fullest with everything you said.
Darkfall will hopefully fill out one of the black hole's of MMORPG gaming.
1.It should exist (by that I mean I cam actually play it and see it with my own eyes).
2.I have fun with it.
And by have fun I mean, I don't look at anything else, skills pvp, rvr crafting, full looting – nothing. That is all just stuff on paper. The only question I have is, do I have fun.
So I would make a game one way and mythic would make it another way, doesn't mean it still can't be fun. And the I only know, is if I try it.
So do I try all games? Well no, but I try many. And not just computer games – all sorts of games.
So to the OP, all that stuff in your wall of text is meaningless to me. Because I try every game for myself. I don't read reviews. EVER.
And right now I'm having fun with WAR.
And as far as all the ranting and raving about equipment goes, I've been playing a MMO with no equipment for the last 5 years.
Because I choose not to grind for equipment, which is why I chose not to play WoW, which is also why I choose to play WAR.
And it's why I played a full looting MUD for 5 years.
Two main issues that I'll try to answer briefly in this post;
1- Skill system being another type of grind,
2- Darkfall community seeking victims to gank/grief rather than more players.
1- I agree that UO was a skill grind with respect to level/item grind of our current main-stream games. I remember doing hours of 8x8 tiling trick to gain those .1s to ding 100, I've grand-mastered 32 different skills during the 10 years I've played - I know a little about how repetitive it can get.
However, you should all know that Darkfall developers are also ex-UO players and "they've been there, done that". They have several quotes on how they are committed to minimize both item and skill grinding. We've already discussed how they will minimize the item grinding; by giving full access to crafters, and taking soulbound items out of the game - in addition, every item in game will decay in time.
They've claimed that maxing out a character to desired skill caps to be able to fight in battlegrounds and be effective on PvP will take significantly less effort than any current MMORPG, and definitely much less than what we (and they) have been accustomed to in UO. Furthermore, since the game is planned to be one character per server, they are focusing on extensive character flexibility, meaning that you will be able to switch your warrior to a mage by dropping some skills (like heavy armor wearing / swordsmanship / parrying, etc.), and training your self in others (focusing / greater fire / necromancy) - this process of transition won't happen instantly but it will take relatively less time to get to desired skill set; in other words, you won't have to re-roll (since many skills like running / jumping etc.) serve both types equally.
2- It is funny how some of you've listed this as the main reason why you won't play the game, honestly it sounds a little inferior and inconfident. The fact that the game is free-for-all full loot does not mean that everyone else will be ganking you, you will have access to their loots and be able to fight back. It doesn't mean he/she will have any extra skills since he has been watching Darkfall for a year more than you do. What happened to your PvP experience you've gained over the vast numbers of MMORPGs you've played all this time? Trust me, that the guy in Forumfall rubbing his hands for "noobs" - you so much like to quote here at every occasion - are probably not much better at PvP than you are. It's mroe about player skills, and we all are most likely be at the same player skills when the game is first released.
You know why so many people like the full loot idea? It's that hand-sweating adrenaline-pump that you feel when you play such a game like Darkfall - to know that if you loose the next duel, your favorite item will be on your opponents hand. It won't match loosing an epic/purple item, you will buy it the next day from your favorite vendor, or craft it on your own; perhaps you already have another spare on your bank for bad surprises. However, you know that if you're not careful, you will be penalized - lightly. You watch your back when you hunt solo in your favorite dungeon, in a flight-or-fight stance. Any pre-AoS UO player knows that feeling very well. It's addictive, and makes you crave for that excitement. We've been craving for that excitement for so many years my friends. There is finally a hope that another game will provide us some of that, and much more.
I am the only person who is sick of hearing the hype from darkfall fanbois (AkA: darkfellows). Can't you darkfellows keep your darkfall post on the dark fellow forum?
C'mon, when will you people just give it up and believe? Get over yourself and your lack of faith.
Can't you see that Darkfall is going to kick WoW in the shins and then decapitate it like the little bitch that it is?
I mean, in Darkfall, they spell "Orc" with a "k" ("Ork"). That's so friggin' genius and original I can hardly contain myself. How can they possibly fail with creativity like that? What more do you want? Proof?
Actually Games Workshop has been spelling Ork with a "k" for many years now.
Oh, and the first part of your post makes Darkfall look like a cult.
That's the point of his post. Most Darkfall fanbois, make Darkfall look like a new religon or some crap.
No i dont hate the game but nothing in it screams innovation like so many think it does.
Darkfall will have its niche players, but thats it. That type of game only survives on the niche players. It will never ever see anything close to WoW subs. It would never get 1/10th of it because of its extreme penities.
Majority dosn't like to cut their balls off after they just dropped.
My friend Galaturk well said. Most of the things u mentioned are true .I have to add also the character development system which in DF is huge .Loads of talents/choises in order to make your avatar be exactly what u want. All classes as u can imagine can be made in DF.
The question though if players will join or not DF has avery simple answer.
Players betwwen 12-18 y old will stay in wow ,they just to have their full epiq tier 6 and stick in IF or SW for hours to show off . They dont want their epiqs to get fully looted, they want pvp safe free.
Olders players though with expirience and history in their backs who know and understand what trully pvp looks like will go to DF . Cause they want thrill, excitment agony , and fewlingas that they wont get in wow and many other pvp safe free games.Players that value no limits in exploration adventure and rp yes..Roleplay is strongely pushed in front also in a enviroment that your life is at stake every second that passes.
The false roleplay that many other mmo's provide in DF will have an even more stronger base to grow ,in a world that anyone can e what he wants ,and achive things that in other games can't.
The only question i have for DF is im wating to see how aventurine plans to deal with lagg/lattencey diference in quality of internet every player has with eachother ,cause in a fully almost manual combat system even for casters and archers it may play a significant role.
I am the only person who is sick of hearing the hype from darkfall fanbois (AkA: darkfellows). Can't you darkfellows keep your darkfall post on the dark fellow forum?
C'mon, when will you people just give it up and believe? Get over yourself and your lack of faith.
Can't you see that Darkfall is going to kick WoW in the shins and then decapitate it like the little bitch that it is?
I mean, in Darkfall, they spell "Orc" with a "k" ("Ork"). That's so friggin' genius and original I can hardly contain myself. How can they possibly fail with creativity like that? What more do you want? Proof?
Actually Games Workshop has been spelling Ork with a "k" for many years now.
Oh, and the first part of your post makes Darkfall look like a cult.
That's the point of his post. Most Darkfall fanbois, make Darkfall look like a new religon or some crap.
No i dont hate the game but nothing in it screams innovation like so many think it does.
Darkfall will have its niche players, but thats it. That type of game only survives on the niche players. It will never ever see anything close to WoW subs. It would never get 1/10th of it because of its extreme penities.
Majority dosn't like to cut their balls off after they just dropped.
Not a DF fanboy , actually i don't see the reasing in overhyping games because that makes people dissapoint. I only respond to your unvalid argument about WOWsubs
Tell me friend.
WHICH GAME HAS WOW SUBS??
Lotro? I don't think so , it is lower then EVE subs and it is a mainstream game. WAR? Will have around 500-1k but not anything near WOW subs. WAR= still niche. LOTRO = niche.
Fact is , WOW SUBS are not the STANDARD of this genre. Fact is , if EA pumps 100 million in a mmo it will not have 10 million subs. If blizzard pumps 2 million it will have more subs then WAR.
Fact is, niche term = only a certain group , a single group . Niche can outbeat mainstream . The witcher by example is a niche because it isn't a mainstream RPG. Still it sold out 1 million and i am sure after it new enhanced version , it will sell more copies.
Fact is CCP is enjoying the cash they get from EVE ONLINE for about 5 YEARS!
A good example of 2 upcoming games. Fallen earth and TCOS. Both are not your typical clone and one of them is a sandbox game. Both aren't hyped up and both don't have way over the top promised features. These 2 games in my opinion wil likely have a good % of coming out GOOD in the market. The same reason guild wars was also and they where rewarded.
I am pointing out that saying oh it's niche attitude needs to stop !
----------------------------------------------------------- the old days, the days of gold.
representer of euhporium, shade/amity , high member of the council.
played
UO,M59,EVE,L2,AC,GW,WOW,LOTRO,SWG pre cu/nge,COH/COV, VG,TR,L1, POTBS,Neocron 1 and 2, DAOC pre TOA and age of conan
playing: EVE ONLINE Waiting for Earthrise, FE, bioware mmo, guild wars 2, DFO , mortal online , the chronicles of spellborn
You know why so many people like the full loot idea? It's that hand-sweating adrenaline-pump that you feel when you play such a game like Darkfall - to know that if you loose the next duel, your favorite item will be on your opponents hand. It won't match loosing an epic/purple item, you will buy it the next day from your favorite vendor, or craft it on your own; perhaps you already have another spare on your bank for bad surprises. However, you know that if you're not careful, you will be penalized - lightly. You watch your back when you hunt solo in your favorite dungeon, in a flight-or-fight stance. Any pre-AoS UO player knows that feeling very well. It's addictive, and makes you crave for that excitement. We've been craving for that excitement for so many years my friends. There is finally a hope that another game will provide us some of that, and much more.
That's a bit self contradictory. I'm not going to be doing much hand sweating over losing something easily replaced. Most people don't enjoy having to constantly watch their back either. It's tiring. These are the sorts of things that sound good on paper but very few people actually like over the long term.
That's why Runescape's old wilderness was genius. You didn't have to be constantly be watching you back unless you went into the wilderness, but there were points where you had to enter the wilderness in order to complete a quest or get an uber item. I lost over 1 mil gold worth of blood runes trying to get a staff of guthix. the risk vs reward was awesome. If a PvP MMO could give me that feeling again, I would play it for a very long time.
You mean that we should keep the fanboism of all other games discussed here on the Pub in it's respective forum too?
Getting more attention to Darkfall is not a bad thing for the MMORPG genre.
I like the thought that all people interested in MMORPG could find the game they like and Darkfall will hopefully deliver a place for all the ones that have a problem finding a MMORPG that fits their playstyle.
Yes, keep it in their respective forum.
Getting more attention to Darkfall is not a bad thing in itself, but considering the community that supports this game, then yes it is very bad for the MMO genre. So I suggest you guys keep your posts in the Darkfall forums where you can praise the game to no end and for years to come, and keep the general forum free of Darkfall hype and spam.
Darkfall will hopefully fill out one of the black hole's of MMORPG gaming.
I don't know...Can we keep the War fanboyism in the War forum? Can we keep the AoC fanboyism to the AoC Forum? I don't see you complaining about those posts so why are you complaining about a Darkfall one? Careful now, your hypocrisy is showing.
Also I agree with the OP to a point. If Darkfall releases with most of the promised features it could certainly be bigger than most give it credit for. I don't however think it will be nearly as large as WoW as that just isn't being realistic. I do however believe it could give EQ2, LotRO and EVE a run for their money. Only time and Beta will tell at this point in time.
You know why so many people like the full loot idea? It's that hand-sweating adrenaline-pump that you feel when you play such a game like Darkfall - to know that if you loose the next duel, your favorite item will be on your opponents hand. It won't match loosing an epic/purple item, you will buy it the next day from your favorite vendor, or craft it on your own; perhaps you already have another spare on your bank for bad surprises. However, you know that if you're not careful, you will be penalized - lightly. You watch your back when you hunt solo in your favorite dungeon, in a flight-or-fight stance. Any pre-AoS UO player knows that feeling very well. It's addictive, and makes you crave for that excitement. We've been craving for that excitement for so many years my friends. There is finally a hope that another game will provide us some of that, and much more.
That's a bit self contradictory. I'm not going to be doing much hand sweating over losing something easily replaced. Most people don't enjoy having to constantly watch their back either. It's tiring. These are the sorts of things that sound good on paper but very few people actually like over the long term.
On the contrary. This is what make a game tick, consequences.
Add player freedom to it. The ability to create whatever you like within the game and you'll have a longlasting endgame not seen in any other game out there.
Excuse me, they have announced, for the THIRD time an imminent beta, again with NO date. Excuse me as I have a good chuckle at your expense. As to the end of 2008, beta better start next week if they intend to make that date.
I understand how you have doubts about Aventurine's reliability. However, you should realise that they have taken a different approach in the last couple of weeks, hence came this big hype from Darkfall fans.
First, they've officially announced a release deadline for the first time in the game history, and a soon to begin Beta.
Second, they've released a lengthy gameplay trail that proves how they've kept so much of their promises that pleased majority of us.
They've announced a Beta date for the October, and I'm sure we'll get the invitations soon. We'll have to wait and find out if they will be able succeed making the deadline after a 2 months open Beta period. Aventurine has followed a different approach about their closed Beta stage (which they've been in for a few months now), that they've tried to overcome major bugs during this stage instead of the open Beta stage. They have claimed that the open Beta stage will only begin once the game will reach to a more stable version, it should merely take a couple of weeks and the Beta testers will be responsible for testing some minor issues.
In the next few days, we'll start seeing their interviews about / previews of the game in some magazines and websites.
These all add up to our confidence in them, and we are finally excited to see the light at the end.
Comments
wow, probably one of the most ill-informed posts I have ever seen on these boards.
on another note...how are you commenting on grind at all when you believe it all in our heads? heck i think you would understand the point of how DF has a lot less grind in it more than anyone.
---sig---
Click this for lulz: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/173737/page/6
wow, probably one of the most ill-informed posts I have ever seen on these boards.
on another note...how are you commenting on grind at all when you believe it all in our heads? heck i think you would understand the point of how DF has a lot less grind in it more than anyone.
There is nothing uninformed about this.
1. He mentioned they would overcome the grind by having you become dependent on skill not gear, that is just a trade in grind, not overcoming anything.
2. Yes grind is perception, a repetitive monotonous task. Therefore a game can't ever really get rid of it, only the person.
3. I am uninformed and yet understand the point mroe than anyone... ok then.
Venge Sunsoar
First and foremost nice post, took some time to type I see, second Yes RIkii good one, If you guys want to talk about "DARkfail" then go to where people actually want to talk about it, the darkfall forum, were sick and tired of hearing of how great its gonna be, nobody knows ok.
And since you guys are so inclined to already crown Darkfall as a success, I think I too have a right to say how its going to epic fail, wanna know why? Because of the Darkfall Community. Take a gander over at the Darkfall Forums and you will see all the Gankers salivating at the mouths at the noobs that will come in just to get hacked to pieces again and again and again and again. So much that they will just cancel their subscription because they keep getting killed and loosing their stuff. how many people can honestly play this game year after year and just gank all day long, one , two, three years.... and with now many subs 200,000...500,000....1,000,000 happy gankers running around sticking knives at each other. Anyways enough about Darkfall like Rikii said keep it in the forums, pathetic game.
Back to the OP...very valid points, games are not open enough, click and point, crafting is limited, instancing, you can't go into first person with a bow and arch the arrow....and YES!!! NOT one single MMO out today has Evolved to the next greatest thing, were still stuck in the same RUT that we were stuck in since early 2001, BS I say! enough is enough. Pretty soon investors are gonna shy away from the MMO model innovative ideas will never be able to be funded because of atrocities like AOC.
Actually there is no good MMORPG today not one, not wow, not AOC , not vanguard, not EQ, Not lotr geez, look at all the money being spent here, what a waste! I can go on and on with bad MMO's, I'm sick and tired of these dam game companies wanting to push out garbage out into the public. Yah they want our Hard earned Money, and they also want US! to pay them Monthly for a Crappy game. How would you like it if you paid 15.00 for cable and (hypothetically) some channels went missing and you experienced a lost connection....you'de be pissed, but we can just pick up the phone and call the cable company, most of the time , problem is fixed ...but with these stupid game companies you have to put in a "request" until they can get to you... BS I'm tired of this genre, It's amazing almost 10 years of experience in this RPG model and we've gone in reverse, just amazing....I "HOPE" that all you beta testers for warhammer are not just oozing out your fanboism for Warhammer when I hear quotes like..."best MMorpg I have ever palyed" --"It's amazing" --I heard the same quotes about AOC beta testers and we all know how that panned out, "EPIC FAIL" oh, but Corporate America is happy, they got your money when you bought the box, bet they are jumping ship now, dam investors, hate them...ok I think im done here...anyways good post OP, but NO, Darkfail will not be our answer sorry....out
From what I've read / seen Darkfall will be a full loot gankfeast with nothing at all to keep the higher skill level players from camping the starter towns and repeatadley one shot killing and robbing you as soon as you set foot out of town, being there's no real stealth or invisability. Just the ability to try and hide behind object you can be sure getting out of the town will be a quest in itself as hiding will only be usfull for the gankers waiting to pwn you on your attempted run out of town.
Question being who all wants to kill pve rats in their skivies with their fists because they keep being ganked and robbed by players with more skill levels, and for how long? Totally open PVP with full loot eats itself as there really is that many people who live just to gank and grief, there isn't however that many people wanting to pay to be the playthings of the gankers.
At least the item less game have existed for 4 years: Guildwars. But yes, Darkfall sounds intresting but I wait until it's ready for release before deciding anything. I had heard before about games that sounds intresting just to change to crap before release.
And do beware of Guildwars 2, they do have some of the best programmers there is and the game will be a lot more customized than the first... And no monthly fees. The first did sell 5,5 million copies so my money is still on that they will deliver.
It is however good that someone really is trying to think out of the box, the next really big game will not be a EQ/Wow clone.
Very true. I always find it funny how people go all boohoo about grinding and want a skill based game but you STILL have to grind in one way or another to get your skill up. Take UO for example, I was a long time UO player.. and I cant even remember how many hours a day I spent fireballing myself to get resist up an shit like that. Way to many fuckin hours tho I asure you that lol. About the best way to do it was macro skills and gain while you sleep or expliot a bug (like the blade spirit bug before they fixed it to get resist up).. but then you run the risk of getting your account banned an shit. I wasted more hours of my life trying to get 7xgm skills in UO than I ever have getting to max level in any other game. lol
Dont get me wrong I like skill based games. UO was the shit! But its still a grind no matter how you look at it in ANY game no matter if its skill based or level based. About the only way to get around the grind is if they give you max skills/level as soon as you start your character. But that would be lame. Sure they could just make leveling skills or levels up super fast and easy but then that would get kinda lame too.. cuz if there is no challenge.. whats the point of even playing?
When it comes to the grind there is no difference when it comes to..
"woot! finaly dinged 20!"
"woot! finaly got .5 more skill in (insert skill name here)"
Now im not bashing skill based games at all. They have good points to them over some level based games. Just saying when it comes to the grind its pretty much all the same.
Well no, you see the Darkfall Fanbois need people to gank to have fun, as such they need to try and convince others how great DF will be so they will try it and give the Fanbois more targets to gank/grief. Yeah perhaps thats a over simplification but I'd bet its at least 50% the truth weither they choose to believe it or not. (We need to save you all from those other bad MMO's! DF is the second coming, so come play it for us, oops i mean with us!)
So remember as the DF Fanbois say "Many people have visited and seen the game" ie well one guy this year, and one last year that posted, and yeah some unknown greek game mag. "the game play is awesume!" always a interesting statement considering that while a few claim to have seen the game no one has actually claimed to have played it. "its as Sandboxy as SWG ever was!" Why of course how could I have missed that truth from the video, and the faq which of course is 100% honest and correct.
In truth I do hope DF comes out, if the griefers and gankers have their own MMO maybe they will stay there. (not a big lose in my mind) While its not my gaming style and I don't really believe the ability to gank/loot someone much lower in power (skills/levels etc.) then you again and again = a mental challenge. I do believe any MMO that does well has the possiblity of growing the genre. More gamers generally = a good thing on the whole.
People are going to overhype this game and it will turn out to be like Warhammers beta and soon to be release; not as big as expected and not as good as expected.
I think Darkfall will be a pretty good game but really needs to stop being talked about until people get into open beta. Then they can give feedback and let us know how it is. I've seen a few in-game screenshots but yet proves nothing, atleast not about gameplay and how the graphics actually are on my computer.
I just think this game is being a little over-hyped. It's too early to tell if it will be AMAZING. I do think it will be pretty good, though.
Very true. I always find it funny how people go all boohoo about grinding and want a skill based game but you STILL have to grind in one way or another to get your skill up. Take UO for example, I was a long time UO player.. and I cant even remember how many hours a day I spent fireballing myself to get resist up an shit like that. Way to many fuckin hours tho I asure you that lol. About the best way to do it was macro skills and gain while you sleep or expliot a bug (like the blade spirit bug before they fixed it to get resist up).. but then you run the risk of getting your account banned an shit. I wasted more hours of my life trying to get 7xgm skills in UO than I ever have getting to max level in any other game. lol
Dont get me wrong I like skill based games. UO was the shit! But its still a grind no matter how you look at it in ANY game no matter if its skill based or level based. About the only way to get around the grind is if they give you max skills/level as soon as you start your character. But that would be lame. Sure they could just make leveling skills or levels up super fast and easy but then that would get kinda lame too.. cuz if there is no challenge.. whats the point of even playing?
When it comes to the grind there is no difference when it comes to..
"woot! finaly dinged 20!"
"woot! finaly got .5 more skill in (insert skill name here)"
Now im not bashing skill based games at all. They have good points to them over some level based games. Just saying when it comes to the grind its pretty much all the same.
Apart from the various "shits" this is a very good critique of old-school skill based systems.
I hope a game will appear soon that'll do for skill-based games what WAR is doing right now for level-based ones. Removing the grind and frustration and putting fun back into the mix.
Sadly, I don't see Darkfall as doing anything even remotely close for it is painfully reactionary in its concept. EVE online was on the right track, as was Guild Wars. A next-gen revolutionary skill based game should take one step beyond these games and not take a long leisurely walk back to the "good old" UO days of grind, gank and grief..
My hopes are with Guild Wars 2... if they really do make "levels" cosmetical and keep the great skill-collecting advancement system. CCP's World of Darkness might work as well but there is very little known about it. Earthrise has an interesting take on the skill-based gameplay with hybrid FPS/RP combat system relying on hi-tech ranged weaponry. Sorry, but Darkfall looks really dated in concept compared to those games.
I think what it is really is that a lot of people are tired of the same cookie cutter MMOs out there WOW/EQ (insert clones) and want to get back to basic with the sandbox element type MMO's. As stated in a earlier post a grind is a grind.. to be honest I'd rather grind skills instead of levels and not be locked into a class, or not being grinind for shinies and uber gear that will be made obselete every expansion. Skill -based and full crafting in games is all you need even if it is a grind I'd rather grind skills I want to use instead of some games where some level based MMOs abilities dont get even touched perse...
And finally there are people that want a full-on FFA PVP Sandbox MMO, whats so wrong with not letting them have that type of game? It's not for purist PVE leave me alone type players the game I speak of you all know it but I wont say the name. Will give the freedom to these players to do what they want. But there are systems in place in this said game that wont allow the idiots to run the show , acutally they will end up being run out of the game. I'm not here to hype it or say its the greatest thing since sliced bread or even to flame . Im just saying people hype thier games , whether its AOC/WAR or whatever even what Im talking about. People have thier tastes in MMO's some want risky look over your shoulder type games , which are fun, and then there is the other option (stay safe and collect shinies and never make a impact in the games cause really its just a themepark.
Let the players have thier games which there are plenty of them and let us have our type of games with freedom like said game and other sandbox type games coming out soon ......
Nothing! It would keep all the tards out of the games normal people play. Unfortunately for all of us normal people, Darkfall is going to be a massive failure.
The grand chamption of vaporware continues its legendary incarnation.
You mean that we should keep the fanboism of all other games discussed here on the Pub in it's respective forum too?
Getting more attention to Darkfall is not a bad thing for the MMORPG genre.
I like the thought that all people interested in MMORPG could find the game they like and Darkfall will hopefully deliver a place for all the ones that have a problem finding a MMORPG that fits their playstyle.
To the OP. I agree to the fullest with everything you said.
Darkfall will hopefully fill out one of the black hole's of MMORPG gaming.
I have two requirements for a game
1.It should exist (by that I mean I cam actually play it and see it with my own eyes).
2.I have fun with it.
And by have fun I mean, I don't look at anything else, skills pvp, rvr crafting, full looting – nothing. That is all just stuff on paper. The only question I have is, do I have fun.
So I would make a game one way and mythic would make it another way, doesn't mean it still can't be fun. And the I only know, is if I try it.
So do I try all games? Well no, but I try many. And not just computer games – all sorts of games.
So to the OP, all that stuff in your wall of text is meaningless to me. Because I try every game for myself. I don't read reviews. EVER.
And right now I'm having fun with WAR.
And as far as all the ranting and raving about equipment goes, I've been playing a MMO with no equipment for the last 5 years.
Because I choose not to grind for equipment, which is why I chose not to play WoW, which is also why I choose to play WAR.
And it's why I played a full looting MUD for 5 years.
Two main issues that I'll try to answer briefly in this post;
1- Skill system being another type of grind,
2- Darkfall community seeking victims to gank/grief rather than more players.
1- I agree that UO was a skill grind with respect to level/item grind of our current main-stream games. I remember doing hours of 8x8 tiling trick to gain those .1s to ding 100, I've grand-mastered 32 different skills during the 10 years I've played - I know a little about how repetitive it can get.
However, you should all know that Darkfall developers are also ex-UO players and "they've been there, done that". They have several quotes on how they are committed to minimize both item and skill grinding. We've already discussed how they will minimize the item grinding; by giving full access to crafters, and taking soulbound items out of the game - in addition, every item in game will decay in time.
They've claimed that maxing out a character to desired skill caps to be able to fight in battlegrounds and be effective on PvP will take significantly less effort than any current MMORPG, and definitely much less than what we (and they) have been accustomed to in UO. Furthermore, since the game is planned to be one character per server, they are focusing on extensive character flexibility, meaning that you will be able to switch your warrior to a mage by dropping some skills (like heavy armor wearing / swordsmanship / parrying, etc.), and training your self in others (focusing / greater fire / necromancy) - this process of transition won't happen instantly but it will take relatively less time to get to desired skill set; in other words, you won't have to re-roll (since many skills like running / jumping etc.) serve both types equally.
2- It is funny how some of you've listed this as the main reason why you won't play the game, honestly it sounds a little inferior and inconfident. The fact that the game is free-for-all full loot does not mean that everyone else will be ganking you, you will have access to their loots and be able to fight back. It doesn't mean he/she will have any extra skills since he has been watching Darkfall for a year more than you do. What happened to your PvP experience you've gained over the vast numbers of MMORPGs you've played all this time? Trust me, that the guy in Forumfall rubbing his hands for "noobs" - you so much like to quote here at every occasion - are probably not much better at PvP than you are. It's mroe about player skills, and we all are most likely be at the same player skills when the game is first released.
You know why so many people like the full loot idea? It's that hand-sweating adrenaline-pump that you feel when you play such a game like Darkfall - to know that if you loose the next duel, your favorite item will be on your opponents hand. It won't match loosing an epic/purple item, you will buy it the next day from your favorite vendor, or craft it on your own; perhaps you already have another spare on your bank for bad surprises. However, you know that if you're not careful, you will be penalized - lightly. You watch your back when you hunt solo in your favorite dungeon, in a flight-or-fight stance. Any pre-AoS UO player knows that feeling very well. It's addictive, and makes you crave for that excitement. We've been craving for that excitement for so many years my friends. There is finally a hope that another game will provide us some of that, and much more.
My god is Darkfall still alive?I read up on it when finishing university and now i started a phd!And thats me moving slow
Shows you how long it been talked and promised and blah blah about.
Come on guys lets face it even if this game comes out it will be a stillbirth
C'mon, when will you people just give it up and believe? Get over yourself and your lack of faith.
Can't you see that Darkfall is going to kick WoW in the shins and then decapitate it like the little bitch that it is?
I mean, in Darkfall, they spell "Orc" with a "k" ("Ork"). That's so friggin' genius and original I can hardly contain myself. How can they possibly fail with creativity like that? What more do you want? Proof?
Actually Games Workshop has been spelling Ork with a "k" for many years now.
Oh, and the first part of your post makes Darkfall look like a cult.
That's the point of his post. Most Darkfall fanbois, make Darkfall look like a new religon or some crap.
No i dont hate the game but nothing in it screams innovation like so many think it does.
Darkfall will have its niche players, but thats it. That type of game only survives on the niche players. It will never ever see anything close to WoW subs. It would never get 1/10th of it because of its extreme penities.
Majority dosn't like to cut their balls off after they just dropped.
My friend Galaturk well said. Most of the things u mentioned are true .I have to add also the character development system which in DF is huge .Loads of talents/choises in order to make your avatar be exactly what u want. All classes as u can imagine can be made in DF.
The question though if players will join or not DF has avery simple answer.
Players betwwen 12-18 y old will stay in wow ,they just to have their full epiq tier 6 and stick in IF or SW for hours to show off . They dont want their epiqs to get fully looted, they want pvp safe free.
Olders players though with expirience and history in their backs who know and understand what trully pvp looks like will go to DF . Cause they want thrill, excitment agony , and fewlingas that they wont get in wow and many other pvp safe free games.Players that value no limits in exploration adventure and rp yes..Roleplay is strongely pushed in front also in a enviroment that your life is at stake every second that passes.
The false roleplay that many other mmo's provide in DF will have an even more stronger base to grow ,in a world that anyone can e what he wants ,and achive things that in other games can't.
The only question i have for DF is im wating to see how aventurine plans to deal with lagg/lattencey diference in quality of internet every player has with eachother ,cause in a fully almost manual combat system even for casters and archers it may play a significant role.
I guess we have to wait 1-2 months to see....
C'mon, when will you people just give it up and believe? Get over yourself and your lack of faith.
Can't you see that Darkfall is going to kick WoW in the shins and then decapitate it like the little bitch that it is?
I mean, in Darkfall, they spell "Orc" with a "k" ("Ork"). That's so friggin' genius and original I can hardly contain myself. How can they possibly fail with creativity like that? What more do you want? Proof?
Actually Games Workshop has been spelling Ork with a "k" for many years now.
Oh, and the first part of your post makes Darkfall look like a cult.
That's the point of his post. Most Darkfall fanbois, make Darkfall look like a new religon or some crap.
No i dont hate the game but nothing in it screams innovation like so many think it does.
Darkfall will have its niche players, but thats it. That type of game only survives on the niche players. It will never ever see anything close to WoW subs. It would never get 1/10th of it because of its extreme penities.
Majority dosn't like to cut their balls off after they just dropped.
Not a DF fanboy , actually i don't see the reasing in overhyping games because that makes people dissapoint. I only respond to your unvalid argument about WOWsubs
Tell me friend.
WHICH GAME HAS WOW SUBS??
Lotro? I don't think so , it is lower then EVE subs and it is a mainstream game. WAR? Will have around 500-1k but not anything near WOW subs. WAR= still niche. LOTRO = niche.
Fact is , WOW SUBS are not the STANDARD of this genre. Fact is , if EA pumps 100 million in a mmo it will not have 10 million subs. If blizzard pumps 2 million it will have more subs then WAR.
Fact is, niche term = only a certain group , a single group . Niche can outbeat mainstream . The witcher by example is a niche because it isn't a mainstream RPG. Still it sold out 1 million and i am sure after it new enhanced version , it will sell more copies.
Fact is CCP is enjoying the cash they get from EVE ONLINE for about 5 YEARS!
A good example of 2 upcoming games. Fallen earth and TCOS. Both are not your typical clone and one of them is a sandbox game. Both aren't hyped up and both don't have way over the top promised features. These 2 games in my opinion wil likely have a good % of coming out GOOD in the market. The same reason guild wars was also and they where rewarded.
I am pointing out that saying oh it's niche attitude needs to stop !
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the old days, the days of gold.
representer of euhporium, shade/amity , high member of the council.
played
UO,M59,EVE,L2,AC,GW,WOW,LOTRO,SWG pre cu/nge,COH/COV, VG,TR,L1, POTBS,Neocron 1 and 2, DAOC pre TOA and age of conan
playing: EVE ONLINE
Waiting for Earthrise, FE, bioware mmo, guild wars 2, DFO , mortal online , the chronicles of spellborn
That's a bit self contradictory. I'm not going to be doing much hand sweating over losing something easily replaced. Most people don't enjoy having to constantly watch their back either. It's tiring. These are the sorts of things that sound good on paper but very few people actually like over the long term.
That's why Runescape's old wilderness was genius. You didn't have to be constantly be watching you back unless you went into the wilderness, but there were points where you had to enter the wilderness in order to complete a quest or get an uber item. I lost over 1 mil gold worth of blood runes trying to get a staff of guthix. the risk vs reward was awesome. If a PvP MMO could give me that feeling again, I would play it for a very long time.
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Meow
You mean that we should keep the fanboism of all other games discussed here on the Pub in it's respective forum too?
Getting more attention to Darkfall is not a bad thing for the MMORPG genre.
I like the thought that all people interested in MMORPG could find the game they like and Darkfall will hopefully deliver a place for all the ones that have a problem finding a MMORPG that fits their playstyle.
Yes, keep it in their respective forum.
Getting more attention to Darkfall is not a bad thing in itself, but considering the community that supports this game, then yes it is very bad for the MMO genre. So I suggest you guys keep your posts in the Darkfall forums where you can praise the game to no end and for years to come, and keep the general forum free of Darkfall hype and spam.
Darkfall will hopefully fill out one of the black hole's of MMORPG gaming.
Yes that's what's called a dark fall.
I don't know...Can we keep the War fanboyism in the War forum? Can we keep the AoC fanboyism to the AoC Forum? I don't see you complaining about those posts so why are you complaining about a Darkfall one? Careful now, your hypocrisy is showing.
Also I agree with the OP to a point. If Darkfall releases with most of the promised features it could certainly be bigger than most give it credit for. I don't however think it will be nearly as large as WoW as that just isn't being realistic. I do however believe it could give EQ2, LotRO and EVE a run for their money. Only time and Beta will tell at this point in time.
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That's a bit self contradictory. I'm not going to be doing much hand sweating over losing something easily replaced. Most people don't enjoy having to constantly watch their back either. It's tiring. These are the sorts of things that sound good on paper but very few people actually like over the long term.
On the contrary. This is what make a game tick, consequences.
Add player freedom to it. The ability to create whatever you like within the game and you'll have a longlasting endgame not seen in any other game out there.
Excuse me, they have announced, for the THIRD time an imminent beta, again with NO date.
Excuse me as I have a good chuckle at your expense.
As to the end of 2008, beta better start next week if they intend to make that date.
I understand how you have doubts about Aventurine's reliability. However, you should realise that they have taken a different approach in the last couple of weeks, hence came this big hype from Darkfall fans.
First, they've officially announced a release deadline for the first time in the game history, and a soon to begin Beta.
Second, they've released a lengthy gameplay trail that proves how they've kept so much of their promises that pleased majority of us.
They've announced a Beta date for the October, and I'm sure we'll get the invitations soon. We'll have to wait and find out if they will be able succeed making the deadline after a 2 months open Beta period. Aventurine has followed a different approach about their closed Beta stage (which they've been in for a few months now), that they've tried to overcome major bugs during this stage instead of the open Beta stage. They have claimed that the open Beta stage will only begin once the game will reach to a more stable version, it should merely take a couple of weeks and the Beta testers will be responsible for testing some minor issues.
In the next few days, we'll start seeing their interviews about / previews of the game in some magazines and websites.
These all add up to our confidence in them, and we are finally excited to see the light at the end.