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Finally, a game that supports Perma-death!

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  • Bill_PardyBill_Pardy Member Posts: 196
    Originally posted by ASmith84


    permadeath is for people who want to take games too seriously.  If you want to take it that seriously, why not go outside and play real life?i dont see why some people wont have fun till they have to create a new guy each time or whatever. its just a game have fun if you really want it each time you die just create a new guy and let everyone else keep going.



     

    Thats what I've been trying to say..

    WE ARE HAVING FUN 

    WE ENJOY PLAYING THROUGH THE CONTENT OF THE GAME

    WE DO NOT TAKE IT ANY MORE SERIOUSLY THAN A RAIDER OR PVPER DOES

    WE ARE NOT TRYING TO MAKE YOUR MMO A PERMADEATH MMO, WE ARE LEAVING YOU ALONE

    We are just looking for groups of like-minded individuals to play with. It's no different than a PVP player looking for games to PVP in or a Raiding player looking for Raiding games.

  • KurushKurush Member Posts: 1,303
    Originally posted by Bill_Pardy

    Originally posted by ASmith84


    permadeath is for people who want to take games too seriously.  If you want to take it that seriously, why not go outside and play real life?i dont see why some people wont have fun till they have to create a new guy each time or whatever. its just a game have fun if you really want it each time you die just create a new guy and let everyone else keep going.



     

    Thats what I've been trying to say..

    WE ARE HAVING FUN 

    WE ENJOY PLAYING THROUGH THE CONTENT OF THE GAME

    WE DO NOT TAKE IT ANY MORE SERIOUSLY THAN A RAIDER OR PVPER DOES

    WE ARE NOT TRYING TO MAKE YOUR MMO A PERMADEATH MMO, WE ARE LEAVING YOU ALONE

    We are just looking for groups of like-minded individuals to play with. It's no different than a PVP player looking for games to PVP in or a Raiding player looking for Raiding games.

     

    Do you know the reason why more people don't take you seriously?  Here it is.

    People who really want your experience go out and play it.  Seriously.  They don't need the admins to enforce rules they can enforce themselves.

    Diablo 2 has hardcore mode.

    In DDO, there are permadeath guilds, even without a permadeath option.

    In Diablo 1, which didn't even have a hardcore mode, there were hardcore guilds.

    You can play permadeath in any MMORPG out there.

    Your playstyle is included, by default, in every MMORPG released.  People who actually want your playstyle go out and play it.

  • PapaLazarouPapaLazarou Member Posts: 502

    Why don't you just delete your character each time you die?

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    Originally posted by Majestico


    Like most players here, I have been clamouring out for a tougher gaming experience.
    By tough, I do not mean ridiculous timesink, or having to grind out the best gear.  In this day and age, of games that guide you by the hand, those (as well as raiding which requires more timesink and organisation) are what equates to a skillful player.
    Therefore, for a long time now, many of us have been looking for a game that does not molly-coddle you.  A game that punishes you, without some silly respawn point whch gives you a tiny penalty for a couple of minutes.
    Sure, the bulk of players don't want harsh penalties.  But what about those of us who are in search of a true challenge?
    Well Dufus has finally announced a perma-death server on 26th september.
    It may not be the greatest game.  But it is free2play, and a lot better than the standard crud out there.
    If you can bear the cutesy style, then this might be the start of the 'hardcore' revoloution.
    http://www.dofus.com/en/mmorpg-game/heroic-server.html
     
    Let me know what you think.
     

    I'll tell ya what i think lol.

    The words Hardcore and Common Sense,apparently have no common ground.If you know what odds are ,they are a percentage.For every win there has to be a death.If you have any math skills,that equates to 50% of the server dying every day ...lmao.Can you smell what the math is cooking?Eventually every single person will die,leaving nothing to advancement.Common sense tells us that 50% of the real life population will not die on a daily basis,unless some atomic/nuclear fallout occurs,and i can't think of anyone who would consider that HARDCORE or common sense.

    It makes ZERO sense to make a perma death game unless it happens over time ,the way aging does in real life.That is something that is realistic and something that may have a chance of surviving in a gaming world.Using the idea of aging and perma death,should also include some form of reproduction/reincarnation.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • PatchDayPatchDay Member Posts: 1,641
    Originally posted by PapaLazarou


    Why don't you just delete your character each time you die?



    The list is too long. PD servers differ vastly from normal servers. For one thing, high level characters are much more rare. On PD servers, you see a steady influx of new blood.

    PD servers see great reuse of content- more so then normal servers

    PD servers have heavy politics and approach reality a bit too closely.

     

    The bad- players often pick the easiest things to do to survive. They will be less likely to take risks. I've played on PD servers where literally you saw everyone just roleplay in town because the GMs awarded XP for roleplaying. So, to get players to fight every so often the GMs would send mobs to attack the city

    Bounty systems work brilliantly on PD servers. Because the target takes a hard hit

     

    PD servers place more emphasis on player skill which is a contradiction to the genre however. For example, killing a tough Boss might be something only the skilled will even bother trying. They can be the ultimate for immersion. Players might almost piss on their self just thinking about what a Dragon will do to them

     

    PD servers rely on players to be non-selfish and care about the community though.

    What is good developers can get ultimate reuse out of content. Richard Bartle (father of MUDs) has written some good stuff on Permadeath if you care....

     

  • TecknicTecknic Member Posts: 458

    I decided to finally give Dofus a try because of this topic, and it's not a bad game at all.  I do wish that it didn't have such harsh XP penelties for teaming, though.

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    Playing: Nothing
    Played: Champions Online, CoX, STO, PSO, WoW, lots of free-to-play crap
    Looking Forward To: DC Universe Online, Blade and Soul

  • OrthedosOrthedos Member Posts: 1,771
    Originally posted by Majestico


    Like most players here, I have been clamouring out for a tougher gaming experience.
    By tough, I do not mean ridiculous timesink, or having to grind out the best gear.  In this day and age, of games that guide you by the hand, those (as well as raiding which requires more timesink and organisation) are what equates to a skillful player.
    Therefore, for a long time now, many of us have been looking for a game that does not molly-coddle you.  A game that punishes you, without some silly respawn point whch gives you a tiny penalty for a couple of minutes.
    Sure, the bulk of players don't want harsh penalties.  But what about those of us who are in search of a true challenge?
    Well Dufus has finally announced a perma-death server on 26th september.
    It may not be the greatest game.  But it is free2play, and a lot better than the standard crud out there.
    If you can bear the cutesy style, then this might be the start of the 'hardcore' revoloution.
    http://www.dofus.com/en/mmorpg-game/heroic-server.html
     
    Let me know what you think.
     



     

    Why do you need a game to implement perma-death if you want serious challenge yourself.  Just delete the character whenever it dies.  Oh you do not have the will power to do it yourself and have to be policed by a game?  Or, rather you want others to suffer as well, if you happen to ambush them and backstab them?

    Calling for a perma-death game is stupid.  You can always implement your own perma-death.

  • OrthedosOrthedos Member Posts: 1,771
    Originally posted by wowfan46


    most of the people that don't like permadeath don't really understand the whole point of it.
    permadeath isn't meant to be the "hardcore gamers" way of proving they can pvp all day long and never die. even the best pvpers will die eventually, which is why most people say that PD is stupid.
    the purpose of PD is to unite the community. at first, there will be some chaos, but the eventually 3 types of players will emerge:
    1) the players who get annoyed at having to restart several times per day. they'll quite after a few re-rolls (this is the largest group).
    2) the players who are actually so good at pvp and are careful enough that they don't have to reroll their players constantly (there won't be many of these).
    3) the players who actually know what PD is truly meant for, who are just waiting for group 1 players to leave so they can begin to enjoy the PD server.
    once group 1 is pretty much gone, the 3's and 2's will being turn from pvp to diplomacy (some find diplomatic negotiations as fun as pvp). the community will huddle closely together, in order to protect one another from the few PK's who are good enough and smart enough to stay alive. rather than wage senseless wars, clans will only engage in battle over imporant reasons. what happens is, although you reduce the quantity of pvp, you increase the quality of it. no more battles where one side zergs the other, dies, rezzes, runs back, ... repeats ... and finally they say "alright, i'm bored, let's stop now." instead, you have battles where losing men actually means something.
    eventually, some of the folks from group 1 may check out the PD server again and find people are acting civil towards one another, and the mass chaos and bloodshed that they saw in the beginning has mostly subsided (except for those few PK's who manage to keep away from the community and attack only those foolish enough to stray to far from home). so, some 1's might decide to settle down and join the community.
    PD servers aren't for the "hardcore gamers." in fact, they're more for the carebear gamers that are into socializing, community building, and diplomacy, as opposed to the players who want to zerg, destroy, rez, repeat...
    this doesn't mean that things would actually turn out this way, it's just one possibility. but this is the theory behind PD, and this is what most of the supporters of PD have in mind, not the endless rerolls and senseless bloodshed that most people instantly think when they hear the words "permadeath."

    It is just one possible outcome.  I agree.  But may I ask, which game out there has such a good community?

     

  • SgtFrogSgtFrog Member Posts: 5,001

    I think its funny that people pretend that they are extremly hardcore l33t players who want perma-death...and they will probably be the first people to QQ when they die :)

    image
    March on! - Lets Invade Pekopon

  • GilgameeshGilgameesh Member UncommonPosts: 412

    Perma-death? LOL

    I finally found immortality, the most ancient dream of humanity..... 

     

    No, thanks.

     

    Btw, there is a community that already care of everyone in the game, resurrecting every people in trouble, regardless of the factions and the pvp.

    You can find this community in Saga of Ryzom.

    You don't need perma-death to be a mature player.

     

     

    image
    Nickname registered on www.mynickname.org

  • OrthedosOrthedos Member Posts: 1,771
    Originally posted by SgtFrog


    I think its funny that people pretend that they are extremly hardcore l33t players who want perma-death...and they will probably be the first people to QQ when they die :)



     

    No they do not want perma-death.  They can always reroll whenever they die.  They want perma-death for other people, they want others to suffer.  Whatever they are preaching is total contradictory and bullshit.

    If they want real challenge they could wire and 200volt circuit around their skull and spark themselves whenever their avatar got hit.  They can do anything they want for harshness.  But no they are not jumping off the window when their altar dies.  Instead, they are preaching for a mechanism to force everyone else to suffer.

    As for whoever above saying they are trying to seek like mind people, you have started it wrong.  There are hardcore version of Diablo 2 long ago, almost 10+ years ago.  Perma-death is not new.  There are perma-death version in single player RPGs, I remember one from Sir-Tech (wizardry or whatever series).  Its not something revolutionary; it has been options in many games for decades.  The Sir-Tech one I mentioned, I am sure its at least 20 years old.  If you want like minded people, go there and look for them.  Coming to a general board looking for the elusive few is like trying to fish in a pool of sand.  You look like a troll, even if you are not trying to be one.

  • OzmodanOzmodan Member EpicPosts: 9,726

    I have to wonder if you perma-death advocates actually play games on the net or at least come to understand the net's limitations.   Disconnects, lagging, etc. make life hard at times.  As someone above pointed out look at how Eve support is heavily burdened with tickets for ship replacements due to the above. 

    Can't imagine what a perma-death server would be like trying to support such.  Any developer who accepts such a heavy burden will rue the day.

    I have nothing against perma-death, if you want it, have at it.  Just that I don't think that any MMO developer is going to be willing to accept the support consequences.  My guess is that Dofus is doing this because like many f2p games, they have very little support and really don't care.

    Personally, I think it will be a fad for a bit and then the server will just go away, won't be enough players on it to justify keeping it active. 

  • PatchDayPatchDay Member Posts: 1,641
    Originally posted by Ozmodan


    I have to wonder if you perma-death advocates actually play games on the net or at least come to understand the net's limitations.   Disconnects, lagging, etc. make life hard at times.  As someone above pointed out look at how Eve support is heavily burdened with tickets for ship replacements due to the above. 
    Can't imagine what a perma-death server would be like trying to support such.  Any developer who accepts such a heavy burden will rue the day.
    I have nothing against perma-death, if you want it, have at it.  Just that I don't think that any MMO developer is going to be willing to accept the support consequences.  My guess is that Dofus is doing this because like many f2p games, they have very little support and really don't care.
    Personally, I think it will be a fad for a bit and then the server will just go away, won't be enough players on it to justify keeping it active. 

     

    Are you refering to my post? Because if you are- you misread my post. I said EVE/CCP never complained about getting flooded with tickets as far as I know because ship replacements are never granted unless in their database/logs they can see a bug happened server-side

    The lag issue is being exaggerated.

    Permadeath has other issues like others mentioned but lag isn't that big of an issue. It's not like admins will be flooded with 10,000 tickets every minute come on now haha

  • Flyte27Flyte27 Member RarePosts: 4,574
    Originally posted by Gameloading


    I really wonder why some people still think that punishing the player makes the game more difficult.


    It doesn't, it only increases the timesink. Losing 10% of your XP or your entire character does not make the mob that killed you any more or less powerful. It just means you have to spend more time getting your character back up.



     

    One can look at it as a timesink, but if you are killing mobs and lose experience from dieing you will think twice about running in and doing something crazy or trying to zerg the mob.  You might even think out a strategy to  kill the mob so that you don't end up going backwords in progression instead of forwards.  Having no experience penalty means people are careless and don't develop any form of tactics because they know dieing doesn't really matter.

  • tarkin1980tarkin1980 Member Posts: 229

    I don't think you folks know what perma-death is all about. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with being hard core, uber, or whatever. It's just a different way to play a game, and a huge challenge. Some of us think that is fun. I, for one, think it's a great way to replayability. I did do some perma-death in DDO and it was a whole new game, nothing was the same. You had to adapt an entirely different play style. IMHO, it was a lot more fun than normal. The teamplay just gets soooo much better and fun.

     

    And the only thing I have to say about Dofus is.. man does that game have a fitting name? You have to be one to like it.

  • RAWRGRAWRG Member Posts: 105

    Yeah, I'm kinda tired of the camp vs camp that seems to happen on these boards. I think having the option is cool, if you don't like it, thats fine, and if you want it, I think that's great.

    All I have to say about this particular topic is, I wish it was a different game. I think it's kinda odd that such a cartoony game would be one of the few to adopt this style of play, but whatever!

  • OrthedosOrthedos Member Posts: 1,771
    Originally posted by Flyte27

    Originally posted by Gameloading


    I really wonder why some people still think that punishing the player makes the game more difficult.


    It doesn't, it only increases the timesink. Losing 10% of your XP or your entire character does not make the mob that killed you any more or less powerful. It just means you have to spend more time getting your character back up.



     

    One can look at it as a timesink, but if you are killing mobs and lose experience from dieing you will think twice about running in and doing something crazy or trying to zerg the mob.  You might even think out a strategy to  kill the mob so that you don't end up going backwords in progression instead of forwards.  Having no experience penalty means people are careless and don't develop any form of tactics because they know dieing doesn't really matter.

    It depends on the kind of players targetted.  Some got more time and is willing to try, and put in efforts to formulate complicated tactical analysis.  Some are casual players, logging on for 30 min or less every now and then, when the kids are off to school or in bed.  Different gameplay for different people.  None is inheritantly superior.

     

  • ArKaneArKane Member UncommonPosts: 54


    Originally posted by Orthedos
    Originally posted by Flyte27
    Originally posted by Gameloading I really wonder why some people still think that punishing the player makes the game more difficult.It doesn't, it only increases the timesink. Losing 10% of your XP or your entire character does not make the mob that killed you any more or less powerful. It just means you have to spend more time getting your character back up.

     
    One can look at it as a timesink, but if you are killing mobs and lose experience from dieing you will think twice about running in and doing something crazy or trying to zerg the mob.  You might even think out a strategy to  kill the mob so that you don't end up going backwords in progression instead of forwards.  Having no experience penalty means people are careless and don't develop any form of tactics because they know dieing doesn't really matter.



    It depends on the kind of players targetted.  Some got more time and is willing to try, and put in efforts to formulate complicated tactical analysis.  Some are casual players, logging on for 30 min or less every now and then, when the kids are off to school or in bed.  Different gameplay for different people.  None is inheritantly superior.
     

    Which of course, doesn't stop proponents of certain playstyles from thinking theyre superior, and insulting everyone who doesn't agree, which is why terms like carebear, and most of the wars on these forums happen in the first place.

  • RayalistRayalist Member Posts: 211

    Personally I think the idea of Perma Death is interesting not for griefing, but for a change of pace. Instead of just gathering gear, it's basically seeing how long you can last or what powerful encounters you can overcome without dying. The death part is there just to give you a rush when you're taking on challenges. It's win or lose, you can't just come back later. At least not with the same character.

    Yes, you can just delete your character in any other game, and from what I've heard there are those who enjoy doing just that in DDO. However, I don't believe those wanting perma death games just want WoW with perma death, they want a game that specifically caters to that style of gameplay. One that focuses on entertaining repeatable content instead of a linear path.

    Think Chess. The rules are the same for each game, but if those rules are enjoyable for you, and you're facing an entertaining opponent, the game is still fun despite you having played it dozens or hundreds of times before.

    As many here seem unable to handle differing opinions, I must apologize in advance if this comes as a threat worse than death. It was not intended as such.

  • PatchDayPatchDay Member Posts: 1,641

    Quick rundown on the various forms of Permadeath I've seen:

    * Server resets. Common to MMORTS titles whereas you compete to takeover and after someone reaches the goal the world is reset.

    * Limited Lives. Never played on a server that had this. But in theory players are granted limited lives.

    * Ironman. 1 UP. This is the one that may require more GMs to be present when permadeath is most likely to occur. For instance on Neverwinter Nights PW RP-Permadeath worlds an admin will cause the town to be invaded and therefore, will likely be present when PD occurs.



    MMORPGs are such intense grindfests currently so I don't blame people for getting upset. However, most PD folks are thinking from D&D like me where you only have 1-10 Levels or 1-20 max. Others might come from MMORTS where Permadeath was an indirect result of the server reset to remove the grip of power that one player has achieved. In those games you don't get attached to an avatar though

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