Originally posted by romne You guys dont get it. The only way botting hurts other players is that it hurts their egos that they were dumb enough to hand level their toons to 70 when they could have been smart and had a program do it for them..in other words it just hurts their egos. in every other fashion botters HELP the gamer player. Take note the emphasis on game player and not Blizzard.Botters help you get all forms of materials at the acution house for MUCH cheaper rates.. if alot of botters go missing over this be prepared to pay alot more for those items and I do mean alot more. Need some outrageous ridiculous amount of gold for a flying mount in the upcoming WOTLK? Whats more valuable to you...your time or a few dollars to buy some gold and just buy the damn thing rather then spend countless mindless hours getting it yourself? You tell me. Anyone who thinks getting carpal tunnel while grinding out 10,000 gold for a flying mount has mental issues. The botter helps you skip past the dull boring parts of the game and get to the meat and potatoes of it...ie the fun part for those of you feeling righteous while you grind out your gold lol. I hope this does get rid of alot of bots on a long term basis...then you guys will see just how much easier they have made your gaming lives in WoW. Blizzard sells it like they are helping you by getting rid of botters but the truth of it is they are simply helping themselves...the longer it takes you to get through the game content, without the assistance of botters, the more money they make. Pure, simple truth. Now, are you going to take the blue pill or the red pill?
This is the truth. In the end all they have done is make it harder for the casual gamer to get decent items at the auctions. Botters for the most part just bot, they grind tons of mobs to get tons of stuff which they sell on the market to make gold which they sell for real money. In no way, besides their annoying spamming, which I agree needs to be dealt with, do they harm the players themselves. This is just Blizzard being greedy and saying that no one but them can make money off of their game. That's fine and dandy, and even understandable from a corporate point of view, but it's in no way Blizzard doing something for the players, it's quite the opposite.
Thumbs up for Blizzard,even if they can't collect the $6 millions they have ruined the guy and I believe that Mythic too will have no mercy for those parasites.
In the land of Predators,the lion does not fear the jackals...
You guys dont get it. The only way botting hurts other players is that it hurts their egos that they were dumb enough to hand level their toons to 70 when they could have been smart and had a program do it for them..in other words it just hurts their egos. in every other fashion botters HELP the gamer player. Take note the emphasis on game player and not Blizzard.Botters help you get all forms of materials at the acution house for MUCH cheaper rates.. if alot of botters go missing over this be prepared to pay alot more for those items and I do mean alot more. Need some outrageous ridiculous amount of gold for a flying mount in the upcoming WOTLK? Whats more valuable to you...your time or a few dollars to buy some gold and just buy the damn thing rather then spend countless mindless hours getting it yourself? You tell me. Anyone who thinks getting carpal tunnel while grinding out 10,000 gold for a flying mount has mental issues. The botter helps you skip past the dull boring parts of the game and get to the meat and potatoes of it...ie the fun part for those of you feeling righteous while you grind out your gold lol. I hope this does get rid of alot of bots on a long term basis...then you guys will see just how much easier they have made your gaming lives in WoW. Blizzard sells it like they are helping you by getting rid of botters but the truth of it is they are simply helping themselves...the longer it takes you to get through the game content, without the assistance of botters, the more money they make. Pure, simple truth. Now, are you going to take the blue pill or the red pill?
This is VERY close to being the most idiotic post I have ever seen on a gaming forum.
WHY...please explain this to me...WHY do you buy a game for entertainment and then have someone or someTHING else play it FOR you?
People who feel a "need" to bot their way through MMORPGs, need to find a different genre of game to play, IF they even enjoy playing games at ALL.
If you just want to "play the end game," then play Warhammer....the other MMOs are NOT going to miss your lazy a$$. (On the other hand...I DARE you to go get a bot to do your RvR in WAR. Mythic will clamp down on you so fast, your stupid little head will spin.)
Am I the only one that sees Blizzard lost in this case. What they have done is put a value on virtual properties. Wether their arguements were that it was used to make gold or farm items they have no bridged the gap between real world and virtual. Now, why is this a bad thing? Because now if they mess up and say, delete your account or ban your account and they cant prove you violated the EULA then you can now sue them for money in court. All because they have put a monitary real world value on a virtual place. Is this really going to stop the distribution of this program? Doubtful. If you can write a good enough program then you can make the money to afford the legal issues that come along with it. More so now, if the ruling means the company can no longer distribute the program all they have to do now is make it so widely available that it gets into everyone's hands. I just think that stopping people from botting is a much better course of action. Also, sticking a GM in towns to catch the never ending flood of gold sellers spamming the trade chats can curtail this as well. Final Fantasy XI has made great strides in combating RMT's and I think that WoW/Blizzard and others could take a page on combatting this evil demon from them.
The arguments and judgment left the value of the goods in the game un-addressed. As it should have. In fact, MDY’s case even states that the tool is only meant as a means to advance to 70 more easily and quickly, and that it discourages customers of the tool to use it as a gold-farming device. Blizzard’s stance did not reference the cash value of anything within the game system. It referenced only the imbalance of play experience when Glider is introduced into the equation for some players. Their arguments stated that the presence of Glider impeded Blizzard’s ability to balance that gameplay experience equally among all paying gamers, and that it provided a means for Glider users to absorb an unintended and unfair amount of game resources (both material and system resources). It further argued that there are lasting negative impacts in-game for the use of bot programs if left unchecked, not the least of which being the destabilization of the in-game economy.
The position of Blizzard was largely that MDY infringed on their copyright. Blizzard’s position was argued using the Copyright Act, and the DMCA. By order of the Ninth Circuit Court, copying a program to RAM constitutes a copyright infringement because you are making an unauthorized copy of the game. This is one of the biggest building blocks of the Blizzard case.
The judgment of the court also decided that MDY had knowingly violated the End User License Agreement and the Terms of Use they agreed to upon starting the game. This is a HUGE win for game makers globally that cannot be understated. This is another case where the EULA and TOU have been upheld in a court of law, making them even more defensible in the future. The grey area that bot farmers and gold sellers have treaded for a decade is getting quite a bit less grey, and that benefits anyone that would see these parasites hanged.
There were argument about a Misuse of Copyright by Blizzard, and that Blizzard did not have a right to prevent a third party from developing software related to wow (monopoly). That argument by MDY only holds water if the software is non-infringing, and the court found glider to be clearly an infringement. And even so, the court found that Blizzard is making no efforts to prevent someone else from producing a competing game in which whatever tools anyone wished to produced were within rights of the users according to the TOU and EULA. So no monopoly could be established.
Furthermore the court found that MDY took measures to avoid detection and aided their customers in doing the same. The court found it to be a clear violation for MDY to agree to terms of use, and then deliberately break those terms of use using any means they could, -and- provide those means to other people. The court also commented that this was not a case of altruistic individuals attempting to circumvent the processes for 'fun', but quite clearly that the circumvention was to continue to make money on the copyrighted intellectual property of another entity.
There are seven factors that are weighed in determining impropriety in a summary judgment. The court found in favor of Blizzard in all seven factors. And none of them had anything to do with the real-world value of in-game goods.
You guys dont get it. The only way botting hurts other players is that it hurts their egos that they were dumb enough to hand level their toons to 70 when they could have been smart and had a program do it for them..in other words it just hurts their egos.
in every other fashion botters HELP the gamer player. Take note the emphasis on game player and not Blizzard.Botters help you get all forms of materials at the acution house for MUCH cheaper rates.. if alot of botters go missing over this be prepared to pay alot more for those items and I do mean alot more. Need some outrageous ridiculous amount of gold for a flying mount in the upcoming WOTLK? Whats more valuable to you...your time or a few dollars to buy some gold and just buy the damn thing rather then spend countless mindless hours getting it yourself? You tell me. Anyone who thinks getting carpal tunnel while grinding out 10,000 gold for a flying mount has mental issues.
The botter helps you skip past the dull boring parts of the game and get to the meat and potatoes of it...ie the fun part for those of you feeling righteous while you grind out your gold lol. I hope this does get rid of alot of bots on a long term basis...then you guys will see just how much easier they have made your gaming lives in WoW. Blizzard sells it like they are helping you by getting rid of botters but the truth of it is they are simply helping themselves...the longer it takes you to get through the game content, without the assistance of botters, the more money they make. Pure, simple truth. Now, are you going to take the blue pill or the red pill?
This is the truth. In the end all they have done is make it harder for the casual gamer to get decent items at the auctions. Botters for the most part just bot, they grind tons of mobs to get tons of stuff which they sell on the market to make gold which they sell for real money. In no way, besides their annoying spamming, which I agree needs to be dealt with, do they harm the players themselves. This is just Blizzard being greedy and saying that no one but them can make money off of their game. That's fine and dandy, and even understandable from a corporate point of view, but it's in no way Blizzard doing something for the players, it's quite the opposite.
False. The two of you really don't understand the situation, or you're grasping at straws trying to justify knowingly cheating.
The whole purpose in paying to play a game is to enjoy the journey and the challenge. There are millions of players who don't have such fragile ego's that they feel as though they suck or have failed if they don't have gear or levels as good as anyone else who plays. There are millions who dont even belong to guilds, rarely or never raid, and actually -read- the quests to enjoy the story behind them. These people could care less if you have 10 level 70 characters in full epics and never will. These people play the game, get the levels and gear and gold as they come, and are perfectly satisfied when they complete their personal goals without regard to how many other goals you've completed for yourself. The only impact you have on their gameplay at all, is when they are attempting to do quests or gather tradeskill components for their own use or for sale in the auction house with legitimate means, and they cant because there are botters monopolizing content.
And the cost of the goods in the AH works both ways. Anyone who actually understood supply and demand would know that...
Yes, the cost of the goods in the AH are lower because the botters introduce so much of it into the economy. Yes, that means that more casual legitimate players can more easily purchase those goods in the AH. But it also means that when a legitimate player earns those goods as they were intended to be earned in the game, they can't sell them for anywhere close to what they otherwise could because the botters have already flooded the market. The botters have -artificially- imbalanced the laws of supply and demand and a direct result is an imbalance in the in-game economy. So instead of selling stacks of ore, or leather, or potions, or pieces of gear for high prices in order to pay some of the high prices from merchants for things like epic flying mounts, those legitimate players are now farming for -much- longer to earn the same money. Do you think they feel as though they have been helped?
Like it or not, the EULA is an agreement between the company who made the game and those who play. Laws are put into place to ensure there are no violations of the agreement between parties. Although I'm grateful to Blizzard for bringing up the case, I'm more grateful for the court enforcing the law.
"IF YOU DO NOT AGREE WITH ALL OF THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT, YOU MUST CLICK "REJECT."
The Game includes two components: (a) the software program along with any accompanying materials or documentation (collectively, the "Program"), and (b) Blizzard’s proprietary World of Warcraft online service (the "Service").
"Ownership.
All rights and title in and to the Program and the Service (including without limitation any user accounts, titles, computer code, themes, objects, characters, character names, stories, dialogue, catch phrases, locations, concepts, artwork, animations, sounds, musical compositions, audio-visual effects, methods of operation, moral rights, any related documentation, "applets" incorporated into the Program, transcripts of the chat rooms, character profile information, recordings of games played on the Program, and the Program client and server software) are owned by Blizzard or its licensors. The Program and the Service are protected by United States and international laws. The Program and the Service may contain certain licensed materials, and Blizzard's licensors may enforce their rights in the event of any violation of this Agreement."
"You agree that you will not (i) modify or cause to be modified any files that are a part of the Program or the Service; (ii) create or use cheats, bots, "mods", and/or hacks, or any other third-party software designed to modify the World of Warcraft experience; "
I HEREBY ACKNOWLEDGE THAT I HAVE READ AND UNDERSTAND THE FOREGOING TERMS OF USE AGREEMENT AND AGREE THAT MY USE OF THE PROGRAM AND/OR THE SERVICE IS AN ACKNOWLEDGMENT OF MY AGREEMENT TO BE BOUND BY THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF THIS TERMS OF USE AGREEMENT.
While I think this was the right decision based on current law, I am concerned about the precident for the future. The fact that Blizzard was able to get another judge to support their copyright in regards to RAM is disturbing. Anyhow, upholding a EULA in court is going to become a bad thing for gamers in my opinion. Essentially, if enough EULAs get upheld, they are going to get to the point where "game may change during the course of gameplay" means that a producer / developer can do anything to a game without your having any recourse whatsoever. Just drop over to the SWG Vets forum and see what I mean.
You guys dont get it. The only way botting hurts other players is that it hurts their egos that they were dumb enough to hand level their toons to 70 when they could have been smart and had a program do it for them..in other words it just hurts their egos. -Then why stop there smart guy? Why not just let the program play your character past level 70 right on through the raids, dungeons and pvp? Where does it stop? I just cannot agree with the concept of paying money for someone or something else to play a game for you is somehow smart. The concept of actually PLAYING is gone.
in every other fashion botters HELP the gamer player. Take note the emphasis on game player and not Blizzard.Botters help you get all forms of materials at the acution house for MUCH cheaper rates.. if alot of botters go missing over this be prepared to pay alot more for those items and I do mean alot more. Need some outrageous ridiculous amount of gold for a flying mount in the upcoming WOTLK? Whats more valuable to you...your time or a few dollars to buy some gold and just buy the damn thing rather then spend countless mindless hours getting it yourself? You tell me. Anyone who thinks getting carpal tunnel while grinding out 10,000 gold for a flying mount has mental issues. -Botters are not some sort of community service. They take up character slots on a server. Have you ever had to wait in a que? Wait for a arena match to open? See a money spot camped? You can thank the botters for helping congest that.
Beyond that the reason items are so expesensive currently is because the botters are flooding the market with gold. Yes read that again! The botters are driving prices up. When you, the average player, complete a quest or anything where the game awards you money, lets say 1 gold, it is worth less. Why? Because botters are pumping out more cash than you can. Your 1 gold will buy you less, because the botters are pouring money into the market. Think about that for a minute before you go off praising the cheaters. Also lets not pretend that your real life money didn't take time to earn. Really your whole concept is that it is better to slog through hours of real life work to then buy gold than it is to sit down and play a video game. That is the most idiotic concept ever.
The botter helps you skip past the dull boring parts of the game and get to the meat and potatoes of it...ie the fun part for those of you feeling righteous while you grind out your gold lol. I hope this does get rid of alot of bots on a long term basis...then you guys will see just how much easier they have made your gaming lives in WoW. Blizzard sells it like they are helping you by getting rid of botters but the truth of it is they are simply helping themselves...the longer it takes you to get through the game content, without the assistance of botters, the more money they make. Pure, simple truth. Now, are you going to take the blue pill or the red pill? -If you don't like levels 1-69, then perhaps MMOs are not for you. Go play something else.
Trust me, you will do just fine without the botters. In fact you will do even better. Not that I subscribe to your mentality that you "need" all these things to play a game. Honestly, you will get by just fine without them.
While I think this was the right decision based on current law, I am concerned about the precident for the future. The fact that Blizzard was able to get another judge to support their copyright in regards to RAM is disturbing. Anyhow, upholding a EULA in court is going to become a bad thing for gamers in my opinion. Essentially, if enough EULAs get upheld, they are going to get to the point where "game may change during the course of gameplay" means that a producer / developer can do anything to a game without your having any recourse whatsoever. Just drop over to the SWG Vets forum and see what I mean.
This isn't a case of a game company using the EULA to justify doing whatever they wany. This is a case of a company using the EULA to protect their product from 3rd party actions that do have a negative impact not only on the players of the game, but the companies resources to operate the game.
I understand your fear, but I don't think it is anywhere close to what you are making it out to be.
While I think this was the right decision based on current law, I am concerned about the precident for the future. The fact that Blizzard was able to get another judge to support their copyright in regards to RAM is disturbing. Anyhow, upholding a EULA in court is going to become a bad thing for gamers in my opinion. Essentially, if enough EULAs get upheld, they are going to get to the point where "game may change during the course of gameplay" means that a producer / developer can do anything to a game without your having any recourse whatsoever. Just drop over to the SWG Vets forum and see what I mean.
This is an unrealistic view of a pretty simple situation.
The EULA is first and foremost a contractual agreement between parties. If you don't like the terms outlined within it, dont sign it.
As for the hysteria, a contract cannot be enforced d by any court if it is found to violate your rights. You cannot sign away your rights in any contract, no matter how stupid you are in signing the contract without reading it. The contract, or more specifically the parts of the contract that are found to voilate your rights, become void.
So if the big mean computer game company is really out to screw you, they're going ot have to be more creative than to outline their intent in the EULA for you ...
I used to say the same thing you guys did. And, I realize I kept that simplified, but my original post got lost on the submit button and I didn't feel like retyping all of my reasoning and examples again.
Don't get me wrong either, I think the Bliz vs Wowglider was the correct outcome. The guys at glider knew they were violating the EULA and infringing on Blizard's property. I don't necessarily like the whole implications involved with them getting nailed for something residing in RAM, but that is a whole different subject in my eyes.
I used to say the same thing you guys did. And, I realize I kept that simplified, but my original post got lost on the submit button and I didn't feel like retyping all of my reasoning and examples again.
Don't get me wrong either, I think the Bliz vs Wowglider was the correct outcome. The guys at glider knew they were violating the EULA and infringing on Blizard's property. I don't necessarily like the whole implications involved with them getting nailed for something residing in RAM, but that is a whole different subject in my eyes.
The only purpose for creating a method of copying services to RAM is to help avoid being detected while using an infringing software. No one is going to care if you copy something to RAM unless you are doing it specifically to weasel out of an agreement you made. And if they do care, you are breaking your agreement, and you should get smacked for it.
If the agreement was too much for you too stomach from the start, you shouldn't have signed off on it. Unless of course you never agreed to it and you're just trying to pirate the application, in which case you're not just infringing on a copyright. You're blatantly breaking the law and it's a criminal rather than civil action you'll be facing.
Anyone actually read the decision? As I understand it, in laymans terms, not legalese, is that Blizzard won because Glider was running concurrently with WOW. What scares me is that this sets a very poor legal precedent in which running other programs (for instance something to encrypt data) could also be illegal.
It's not even on the basis that glider copied the protected memory, copied what was there, modified the copy and then injected it back into the protected memory space. If this ruling isn't insane I don't know what is from a legal standpoint. This is a major can of worms that I'm not sure how it's going to play out within the courts, but this precedent scares the hell out of me.
Conversely I'm happy that glider is getting run through the mill here as I hate both botters and farmers. Botters are obvious cheats, gold selling(and especially buying gold) is more of a grey area but one that I believe violates the spirit of participating within a game.
Originally posted by dalestaines1 Originally posted by HBlite
Originally posted by dalestaines1 Questing is not grinding...
What you think a grind is? Anything you do over and over repeatedly. Therefore doing hundreds of quests is just a grind as grinding mobs.
With that logic, anything you play is grinding. Questing isn't the same. Killing goblins for hours on end is grinding. Doing different quests is completely different and requires more than mindless slashing.
ummmm...ok mr. "ithinkiknoweverythingaboutWoW" there is a term called Quest grinding..may be a old and outdated term...but it still exists. and no WoW is NOT a quest based game..its a PvP/Arena/Gear/"we think we are cool but we actually have no skill" game
ummmm...ok mr. "ithinkiknoweverythingaboutWoW" there is a term called Quest grinding..may be a old and outdated term...but it still exists. and no WoW is NOT a quest based game..its a PvP/Arena/Gear/"we think we are cool but we actually have no skill" game
WoW is about as much a PvP game as Warhammer is a PvE game. Pffft. Do you even PLAY WoW? Do you realize how many people have never even set FOOT in a BG or arena? First of all, there are a LOT of people who are in raid guilds, for one. Secondly, not everyone who plays WoW gives a rat's a$$ about "being cool." A lot of players, contrary to seemingly popular belief, are well over the age of 30, and uninterested in impressing the 12 year olds that play.
Quest grinding? Uhm...okay. Did you ever consider that perhaps if you think questing is "grinding" that maybe you should just play an FPS or some other kind of game that doesn't require you to read, or follow a story, or follow directions, or interact with other people on any meaningful level other than to see who can "pwn" who in PvP? Hello, McFly? There is a lot more to WoW than PvP, so to call it a "PvP/Arena/Gear" game, is really pretty much, well....ignorant.
If you don't like questing and you see it as a monotonous "grind"....wrong genre for you, Buddy.
I am with many others on here they did not need the money. The right thing to do would be to donate that 6 million to a worthy charity.
And how do you know for SURE that they didn't? O.o We have no idea what Blizzard does with their money. They may donate to charities. Who's to say they don't?
Anyone actually read the decision? As I understand it, in laymans terms, not legalese, is that Blizzard won because Glider was running concurrently with WOW. What scares me is that this sets a very poor legal precedent in which running other programs (for instance something to encrypt data) could also be illegal.
It's not even on the basis that glider copied the protected memory, copied what was there, modified the copy and then injected it back into the protected memory space. If this ruling isn't insane I don't know what is from a legal standpoint. This is a major can of worms that I'm not sure how it's going to play out within the courts, but this precedent scares the hell out of me.
Conversely I'm happy that glider is getting run through the mill here as I hate both botters and farmers. Botters are obvious cheats, gold selling(and especially buying gold) is more of a grey area but one that I believe violates the spirit of participating within a game.
I actually read the decision, and I gave a basic outline of what it contained. It didn't have anything to do with Glider running alongside of WoW. It had to do with:
1) Glider creating copies of WoW processes in RAM in order for Glider to be more difficult to detect (Copy WoW in an unauthorized way to any place constitutes copyright infringement and a breach of the EULA and TOU).
2) Glider being a bot, with is specifically identified as a breach of the EULA and TOU
3) Glider providing a means in which players using it can absorb unintended amounts of in-game resources, and resources on the Blizzard servers, and in doing so breaching the EULA and TOU.
4) Glider producing a destabilizing effect on the in-game WoW economy, which in effect is copyright infringment because the act removes a portion of Blizzard's control over it's own intellectual property.
Those are not all the points of the arguments, but none of the remainder had anything at all to do with any program running alongside WoW. The closest the arguments came to that was that Glider allowed WoW to run in manner it was never intended to run. Blizzard doesn't care what else you have running on your system while WoW is running unless those other things running modify the normal function and/or gameplay of WoW. And if those other programs do alter the way WoW runs or the gameplay experience of a person running them, Blizzard has a right to care.
Bottom line is that this judgment doesn't set -any- legal precident for running any program alongside any other programs. It sets a legal precident that says if you agree not to modify a program while using it, you can't run other programs that do exactly that. It's not a legal can of worms. It's really freakin simple.
Part of the argument -is exactly- that you can't redirect WoW's processes, modify them, and reinsert them. Especially if those steps are done specifically to avoid detection in modifying what the program does after agreeing to terms stipulating that you wont.
I agree with you about the gold sellers completely. But it should be stated here again that this judgment does not impact real-world value of in-game goods at all. It was wholly unaddressed. The major victory here for Blizzard (and future game developers) is that the EULA and TOU were strongly upheld in court. Again. This is a platform that the gold sellers have spoken from for a long time; that the EULA is unenforcable, and the fact that most EULA's forbid secondary market sales can't be enforced. This case proves that the EULA can be enforced, and so the secondary market loses one of its strongest planks unless it can prove that stating the secondary market is forbidden somehow violates the inherent rights of the gold sellers. Which will be a doubly difficult argument to prove after this case as redoubled the strength of the copyright and intellectual property positions of game developers.
I am with many others on here they did not need the money. The right thing to do would be to donate that 6 million to a worthy charity.
By this logic you should donate any money you currently pay to MMO developers to charity. There is no way to argue that you -need- to play computer games. So that ~$15 is not something that you 'need'.
Then again, you earned the ~$15 right? What you do with it is no one's business unless you're breaking the law in it's use. If you feel compelled to give it to a charity, great! But if you decide to turn it into $1's and throw it at strippers it's no one's right to say word one.
Frankly Blizzard could provide rolls in the stalls of their office bathrooms made from this $6mil judgment for people to wipe their asses with and I wouldn't care less.
Comments
This is the truth. In the end all they have done is make it harder for the casual gamer to get decent items at the auctions. Botters for the most part just bot, they grind tons of mobs to get tons of stuff which they sell on the market to make gold which they sell for real money. In no way, besides their annoying spamming, which I agree needs to be dealt with, do they harm the players themselves. This is just Blizzard being greedy and saying that no one but them can make money off of their game. That's fine and dandy, and even understandable from a corporate point of view, but it's in no way Blizzard doing something for the players, it's quite the opposite.
Great victory for the gaming community.
Way to go, Blizzard!!
not a huge fan of WoW but this deserves a hefty
Nice to see people who try to make money off of others success go down hard.
In the land of Predators,the lion does not fear the jackals...
This is VERY close to being the most idiotic post I have ever seen on a gaming forum.
WHY...please explain this to me...WHY do you buy a game for entertainment and then have someone or someTHING else play it FOR you?
People who feel a "need" to bot their way through MMORPGs, need to find a different genre of game to play, IF they even enjoy playing games at ALL.
If you just want to "play the end game," then play Warhammer....the other MMOs are NOT going to miss your lazy a$$. (On the other hand...I DARE you to go get a bot to do your RvR in WAR. Mythic will clamp down on you so fast, your stupid little head will spin.)
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
If you think questing is grinding, you should try to find something else to do with your spare time. Grats to Blizzard.
The arguments and judgment left the value of the goods in the game un-addressed. As it should have. In fact, MDY’s case even states that the tool is only meant as a means to advance to 70 more easily and quickly, and that it discourages customers of the tool to use it as a gold-farming device. Blizzard’s stance did not reference the cash value of anything within the game system. It referenced only the imbalance of play experience when Glider is introduced into the equation for some players. Their arguments stated that the presence of Glider impeded Blizzard’s ability to balance that gameplay experience equally among all paying gamers, and that it provided a means for Glider users to absorb an unintended and unfair amount of game resources (both material and system resources). It further argued that there are lasting negative impacts in-game for the use of bot programs if left unchecked, not the least of which being the destabilization of the in-game economy.
The position of Blizzard was largely that MDY infringed on their copyright. Blizzard’s position was argued using the Copyright Act, and the DMCA. By order of the Ninth Circuit Court, copying a program to RAM constitutes a copyright infringement because you are making an unauthorized copy of the game. This is one of the biggest building blocks of the Blizzard case.
The judgment of the court also decided that MDY had knowingly violated the End User License Agreement and the Terms of Use they agreed to upon starting the game. This is a HUGE win for game makers globally that cannot be understated. This is another case where the EULA and TOU have been upheld in a court of law, making them even more defensible in the future. The grey area that bot farmers and gold sellers have treaded for a decade is getting quite a bit less grey, and that benefits anyone that would see these parasites hanged.
There were argument about a Misuse of Copyright by Blizzard, and that Blizzard did not have a right to prevent a third party from developing software related to wow (monopoly). That argument by MDY only holds water if the software is non-infringing, and the court found glider to be clearly an infringement. And even so, the court found that Blizzard is making no efforts to prevent someone else from producing a competing game in which whatever tools anyone wished to produced were within rights of the users according to the TOU and EULA. So no monopoly could be established.
Furthermore the court found that MDY took measures to avoid detection and aided their customers in doing the same. The court found it to be a clear violation for MDY to agree to terms of use, and then deliberately break those terms of use using any means they could, -and- provide those means to other people. The court also commented that this was not a case of altruistic individuals attempting to circumvent the processes for 'fun', but quite clearly that the circumvention was to continue to make money on the copyrighted intellectual property of another entity.
There are seven factors that are weighed in determining impropriety in a summary judgment. The court found in favor of Blizzard in all seven factors. And none of them had anything to do with the real-world value of in-game goods.
This is not a secondary market case. Period.
-Feyshtey-
This is the truth. In the end all they have done is make it harder for the casual gamer to get decent items at the auctions. Botters for the most part just bot, they grind tons of mobs to get tons of stuff which they sell on the market to make gold which they sell for real money. In no way, besides their annoying spamming, which I agree needs to be dealt with, do they harm the players themselves. This is just Blizzard being greedy and saying that no one but them can make money off of their game. That's fine and dandy, and even understandable from a corporate point of view, but it's in no way Blizzard doing something for the players, it's quite the opposite.
False. The two of you really don't understand the situation, or you're grasping at straws trying to justify knowingly cheating.
The whole purpose in paying to play a game is to enjoy the journey and the challenge. There are millions of players who don't have such fragile ego's that they feel as though they suck or have failed if they don't have gear or levels as good as anyone else who plays. There are millions who dont even belong to guilds, rarely or never raid, and actually -read- the quests to enjoy the story behind them. These people could care less if you have 10 level 70 characters in full epics and never will. These people play the game, get the levels and gear and gold as they come, and are perfectly satisfied when they complete their personal goals without regard to how many other goals you've completed for yourself. The only impact you have on their gameplay at all, is when they are attempting to do quests or gather tradeskill components for their own use or for sale in the auction house with legitimate means, and they cant because there are botters monopolizing content.
And the cost of the goods in the AH works both ways. Anyone who actually understood supply and demand would know that...
Yes, the cost of the goods in the AH are lower because the botters introduce so much of it into the economy. Yes, that means that more casual legitimate players can more easily purchase those goods in the AH. But it also means that when a legitimate player earns those goods as they were intended to be earned in the game, they can't sell them for anywhere close to what they otherwise could because the botters have already flooded the market. The botters have -artificially- imbalanced the laws of supply and demand and a direct result is an imbalance in the in-game economy. So instead of selling stacks of ore, or leather, or potions, or pieces of gear for high prices in order to pay some of the high prices from merchants for things like epic flying mounts, those legitimate players are now farming for -much- longer to earn the same money. Do you think they feel as though they have been helped?
Clearly the answer is no. But nice try geniuses.
-Feyshtey-
Like it or not, the EULA is an agreement between the company who made the game and those who play. Laws are put into place to ensure there are no violations of the agreement between parties. Although I'm grateful to Blizzard for bringing up the case, I'm more grateful for the court enforcing the law.
"IF YOU DO NOT AGREE WITH ALL OF THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT, YOU MUST CLICK "REJECT."
The Game includes two components: (a) the software program along with any accompanying materials or documentation (collectively, the "Program"), and (b) Blizzard’s proprietary World of Warcraft online service (the "Service").
"Ownership.
All rights and title in and to the Program and the Service (including without limitation any user accounts, titles, computer code, themes, objects, characters, character names, stories, dialogue, catch phrases, locations, concepts, artwork, animations, sounds, musical compositions, audio-visual effects, methods of operation, moral rights, any related documentation, "applets" incorporated into the Program, transcripts of the chat rooms, character profile information, recordings of games played on the Program, and the Program client and server software) are owned by Blizzard or its licensors. The Program and the Service are protected by United States and international laws. The Program and the Service may contain certain licensed materials, and Blizzard's licensors may enforce their rights in the event of any violation of this Agreement."
"You agree that you will not (i) modify or cause to be modified any files that are a part of the Program or the Service; (ii) create or use cheats, bots, "mods", and/or hacks, or any other third-party software designed to modify the World of Warcraft experience; "
I HEREBY ACKNOWLEDGE THAT I HAVE READ AND UNDERSTAND THE FOREGOING TERMS OF USE AGREEMENT AND AGREE THAT MY USE OF THE PROGRAM AND/OR THE SERVICE IS AN ACKNOWLEDGMENT OF MY AGREEMENT TO BE BOUND BY THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF THIS TERMS OF USE AGREEMENT.
Copyright 2006 Blizzard Entertainment, Inc. All rights reserved." http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/legal/termsofuse.html
I honestly don't know what's unclear about the above quotes.
http://www.allaboutgod.com/
While I think this was the right decision based on current law, I am concerned about the precident for the future. The fact that Blizzard was able to get another judge to support their copyright in regards to RAM is disturbing. Anyhow, upholding a EULA in court is going to become a bad thing for gamers in my opinion. Essentially, if enough EULAs get upheld, they are going to get to the point where "game may change during the course of gameplay" means that a producer / developer can do anything to a game without your having any recourse whatsoever. Just drop over to the SWG Vets forum and see what I mean.
This isn't a case of a game company using the EULA to justify doing whatever they wany. This is a case of a company using the EULA to protect their product from 3rd party actions that do have a negative impact not only on the players of the game, but the companies resources to operate the game.
I understand your fear, but I don't think it is anywhere close to what you are making it out to be.
This is an unrealistic view of a pretty simple situation.
The EULA is first and foremost a contractual agreement between parties. If you don't like the terms outlined within it, dont sign it.
As for the hysteria, a contract cannot be enforced d by any court if it is found to violate your rights. You cannot sign away your rights in any contract, no matter how stupid you are in signing the contract without reading it. The contract, or more specifically the parts of the contract that are found to voilate your rights, become void.
So if the big mean computer game company is really out to screw you, they're going ot have to be more creative than to outline their intent in the EULA for you ...
-Feyshtey-
I used to say the same thing you guys did. And, I realize I kept that simplified, but my original post got lost on the submit button and I didn't feel like retyping all of my reasoning and examples again.
Don't get me wrong either, I think the Bliz vs Wowglider was the correct outcome. The guys at glider knew they were violating the EULA and infringing on Blizard's property. I don't necessarily like the whole implications involved with them getting nailed for something residing in RAM, but that is a whole different subject in my eyes.
The only purpose for creating a method of copying services to RAM is to help avoid being detected while using an infringing software. No one is going to care if you copy something to RAM unless you are doing it specifically to weasel out of an agreement you made. And if they do care, you are breaking your agreement, and you should get smacked for it.
If the agreement was too much for you too stomach from the start, you shouldn't have signed off on it. Unless of course you never agreed to it and you're just trying to pirate the application, in which case you're not just infringing on a copyright. You're blatantly breaking the law and it's a criminal rather than civil action you'll be facing.
-Feyshtey-
Anyone actually read the decision? As I understand it, in laymans terms, not legalese, is that Blizzard won because Glider was running concurrently with WOW. What scares me is that this sets a very poor legal precedent in which running other programs (for instance something to encrypt data) could also be illegal.
It's not even on the basis that glider copied the protected memory, copied what was there, modified the copy and then injected it back into the protected memory space. If this ruling isn't insane I don't know what is from a legal standpoint. This is a major can of worms that I'm not sure how it's going to play out within the courts, but this precedent scares the hell out of me.
Conversely I'm happy that glider is getting run through the mill here as I hate both botters and farmers. Botters are obvious cheats, gold selling(and especially buying gold) is more of a grey area but one that I believe violates the spirit of participating within a game.
Serves them right.
What you think a grind is?
Anything you do over and over repeatedly.
Therefore doing hundreds of quests is just a grind as grinding mobs.
With that logic, anything you play is grinding.
Questing isn't the same. Killing goblins for hours on end is grinding. Doing different quests is completely different and requires more than mindless slashing.
ummmm...ok mr. "ithinkiknoweverythingaboutWoW" there is a term called Quest grinding..may be a old and outdated term...but it still exists. and no WoW is NOT a quest based game..its a PvP/Arena/Gear/"we think we are cool but we actually have no skill" game
ummmm...ok mr. "ithinkiknoweverythingaboutWoW" there is a term called Quest grinding..may be a old and outdated term...but it still exists. and no WoW is NOT a quest based game..its a PvP/Arena/Gear/"we think we are cool but we actually have no skill" game
WoW is about as much a PvP game as Warhammer is a PvE game. Pffft. Do you even PLAY WoW? Do you realize how many people have never even set FOOT in a BG or arena? First of all, there are a LOT of people who are in raid guilds, for one. Secondly, not everyone who plays WoW gives a rat's a$$ about "being cool." A lot of players, contrary to seemingly popular belief, are well over the age of 30, and uninterested in impressing the 12 year olds that play.
Quest grinding? Uhm...okay. Did you ever consider that perhaps if you think questing is "grinding" that maybe you should just play an FPS or some other kind of game that doesn't require you to read, or follow a story, or follow directions, or interact with other people on any meaningful level other than to see who can "pwn" who in PvP? Hello, McFly? There is a lot more to WoW than PvP, so to call it a "PvP/Arena/Gear" game, is really pretty much, well....ignorant.
If you don't like questing and you see it as a monotonous "grind"....wrong genre for you, Buddy.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
I am with many others on here they did not need the money. The right thing to do would be to donate that 6 million to a worthy charity.
And how do you know for SURE that they didn't? O.o We have no idea what Blizzard does with their money. They may donate to charities. Who's to say they don't?
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
I actually read the decision, and I gave a basic outline of what it contained. It didn't have anything to do with Glider running alongside of WoW. It had to do with:
1) Glider creating copies of WoW processes in RAM in order for Glider to be more difficult to detect (Copy WoW in an unauthorized way to any place constitutes copyright infringement and a breach of the EULA and TOU).
2) Glider being a bot, with is specifically identified as a breach of the EULA and TOU
3) Glider providing a means in which players using it can absorb unintended amounts of in-game resources, and resources on the Blizzard servers, and in doing so breaching the EULA and TOU.
4) Glider producing a destabilizing effect on the in-game WoW economy, which in effect is copyright infringment because the act removes a portion of Blizzard's control over it's own intellectual property.
Those are not all the points of the arguments, but none of the remainder had anything at all to do with any program running alongside WoW. The closest the arguments came to that was that Glider allowed WoW to run in manner it was never intended to run. Blizzard doesn't care what else you have running on your system while WoW is running unless those other things running modify the normal function and/or gameplay of WoW. And if those other programs do alter the way WoW runs or the gameplay experience of a person running them, Blizzard has a right to care.
Bottom line is that this judgment doesn't set -any- legal precident for running any program alongside any other programs. It sets a legal precident that says if you agree not to modify a program while using it, you can't run other programs that do exactly that. It's not a legal can of worms. It's really freakin simple.
Part of the argument -is exactly- that you can't redirect WoW's processes, modify them, and reinsert them. Especially if those steps are done specifically to avoid detection in modifying what the program does after agreeing to terms stipulating that you wont.
I agree with you about the gold sellers completely. But it should be stated here again that this judgment does not impact real-world value of in-game goods at all. It was wholly unaddressed. The major victory here for Blizzard (and future game developers) is that the EULA and TOU were strongly upheld in court. Again. This is a platform that the gold sellers have spoken from for a long time; that the EULA is unenforcable, and the fact that most EULA's forbid secondary market sales can't be enforced. This case proves that the EULA can be enforced, and so the secondary market loses one of its strongest planks unless it can prove that stating the secondary market is forbidden somehow violates the inherent rights of the gold sellers. Which will be a doubly difficult argument to prove after this case as redoubled the strength of the copyright and intellectual property positions of game developers.
-Feyshtey-
By this logic you should donate any money you currently pay to MMO developers to charity. There is no way to argue that you -need- to play computer games. So that ~$15 is not something that you 'need'.
Then again, you earned the ~$15 right? What you do with it is no one's business unless you're breaking the law in it's use. If you feel compelled to give it to a charity, great! But if you decide to turn it into $1's and throw it at strippers it's no one's right to say word one.
Frankly Blizzard could provide rolls in the stalls of their office bathrooms made from this $6mil judgment for people to wipe their asses with and I wouldn't care less.
-Feyshtey-
They could just put that money right into a fund that pays for legal actions against other criminals that do similar action.