Sandbox-ish Dungeon Design

IGaveUp

Let's use WoW's SM Library as an example of a linear dungeon design.  In the front door and follow the path to the end-boss.

How would a sandbox-ish* MMO dungeon be different than SM Lib?  Would it still be linear?  Would it be instanced?  How could it be made "better" in terms of more freedom?

Ken

* = needn't be pure sandbox, just `sort-of' is fine.

 

Sovrath

Originally posted by XAPKen


Let's use WoW's SM Library as an example of a linear dungeon design.  In the front door and follow the path to the end-boss.
How would a sandbox-ish* MMO dungeon be different than SM Lib?  Would it still be linear?  Would it be instanced?  How could it be made "better" in terms of more freedom?
Ken
* = needn't be pure sandbox, just `sort-of' is fine.
 

 

Well, I don't think a dungeon woudl have to be different from linear as the sandbox moniker seems to pertain more to class construction and what you do in the world.

However, if one wanted to make it less linear you could have a vareity of goals in the dungeon so that if one didn't want to kill the boss one could destroy a coven of witches or a secret entrance to a deeper area by solving a puzzle.

Or, one could have a main boss or encoutner solvable in different ways. So perhaps one could kill the boss or a thief type character could just steal the boss's favorit chalice. Etc.

Thoric485

In WoW-terms it should be more like BRD, and less like the Outland instances which are just straight tunnels.

fischsemmel

I think you are missing the meaning of sandbox.

 

Consider a sandbox for a moment - the kind of sandbox you played in as a kid. It is, more or less, an enclosed area full of sand. When you come upon it, the sand might be flat and level; the sand might be formed into a castle that a previous visitor formed; the sand might be partly overgrown with grass; there might be a big whole dug in the sand; someone else might be there playing in the sand all ready.

An MMO that is "sandbox-ish" really is like that sandbox I described above. When you first set foot into the MMO, the world might be flat and featureless, waiting for you (and others) to sculpt it; the world might be full of cities and civilizations, waiting for you (and others) to interact with; the world might be falling into disrepair, waiting for you (and others) to fix it up; the world might all ready be full of players, hostile and/or friendly.

In both the sandbox and in the sandbox-MMO, the player can choose what he wants to do, and what he does has an effect on things.

 

Trying to describe a dungeon as a sandbox dungeon just means, to me, that it is a dungeon where the player has the freedom to do what he wants to (within reasonable limits) and where the player's actions (or lack thereof) affect the dungeon.

The player must have choices!

A person stepping into a sandbox isn't forced by some unseen hand to make sand castles and nothing else. He CAN, of course, make a sand castle... but he can also dig holes, make mountains, pave streets for his lego-men, build fortifications, leave it plain... whatever!

A player in an sandbox dungeon should not be forced, by the very design of the game, to progress in a straight line through a dungeon and kill everything in sight. He should have options - talk to the residents of the dungeon, sneak past the residents, divine an easier route to his objective, etc. And when he does choose to fight, he should STILL have options - hire help, kill by poisoning the dungeon water supply, draw the enemies out of the dungeon with a distraction (earthquake? flood?) and slaughter them as they leave it, etc.

fischsemmel

The whole "should it be linear?" question isn't really relevant. Neither is whether the dungeon is instanced or not. If the epitome of a sandbox game/dungeon is as I think it is, being able to choose actions and having your actions actually affect the world, then what the world is to begin with doesn't matter... it is what you do from there that matters.

IGaveUp

Originally posted by fischsemmel


I think you are missing the meaning of sandbox.

 

Agreed, it was a poor choice of term.  In the console game community, sandbox refers to a (semi) non-linear DIY adventure such as TES Morrowind.  Obviously in MMOs the meaning is different, as you stated.  I'm heavily influenced by consoles, and still working on breaking the habit of using "sandbox" where I shouldn't.

BTW: GJ on the description.  It's one of the best I've read so far.

Ken

IGaveUp

Originally posted by Thoric485


In WoW-terms it should be more like BRD, and less like the Outland instances which are just straight tunnels.

 

BRD!  Good suggestion... off to check it out.

TY

Ken

 

IGaveUp

Originally posted by Sovrath  
... you could have a vareity of goals in the dungeon so that if one didn't want to kill the boss one could destroy a coven of witches or a secret entrance to a deeper area by solving a puzzle.

 

RE: "to a deeper area"

I think depth has a lot to do with it.  Some I've tried building that weren't deep sort of felt more like confined underground grinding areas.  That fits with the BRD style suggestion, as it is vast.

TY

Ken

 

paulscott

The dungeon would function as the sewer system to the city, allowing you to take shortcuts to get around guards and for smuggling, It would also provide access to parts of buildings you normally couldn't get to(the local brewery for instance, since they drop waste into the sewer) opening up other content, It would be tied into a few quest lines, It wouldn't be tied to specific levels rather it would have areas that support most levels in the game(so people have reasons to come back), Would open up bits of lore like finding out that the sewers were originally carved out of natural tunnels that were formed by lava tubes, offer a few resource spawns ranging from recycling waste(IE iron forging plant) from NPCs to gathering gems from lava tubes,  The sewers would also provide a few territory control points for player owned factions, and because the tunnels were originally carved from lava tubes they provide ways to get to mountain valleys that have no other way to get there(with some of them having small NPC towns in them each with their own lore, crafting methods, quests, minigames (PvP or otherwise), and whatever else).

 

 

Zayne3145

I've always wanted a dungeon where the encounter is different every time - where you don't have to read up on a strat before entering. This could be anything from different mobs, different bosses (and abilities) or even random room layouts (although this would be hard to implement from a lore perspective)

I love PvE and dungeon running, but doing the same instance over and over gets tiresome after a while, and half the time you're on autopilot 'cos you've dont it so often. With a system similar to that above you'd constantly be on your toes and every run would be exciting as you wouldn't know what was around the next corner.

Sovrath

Originally posted by Zayne3145


I've always wanted a dungeon where the encounter is different every time - where you don't have to read up on a strat before entering. This could be anything from different mobs, different bosses (and abilities) or even random room layouts (although this would be hard to implement from a lore perspective)
I love PvE and dungeon running, but doing the same instance over and over gets tiresome after a while, and half the time you're on autopilot 'cos you've dont it so often. With a system similar to that above you'd constantly be on your toes and every run would be exciting as you wouldn't know what was around the next corner.

 

I agree, I've been thinking about the same thing. It might have some recurring Bosses as it wouldn't make too much sense to have an area change major figures, but perhaps different monsters that have different strategies.

I suppose I'm very cognizant of the fact taht I really dislike the idea of static mob standing around waiting to be killed.

Zayne3145

Originally posted by Sovrath



I suppose I'm very cognizant of the fact taht I really dislike the idea of static mob standing around waiting to be killed.

 

Absolutely, and killed repeatedly. Nothing destroys immersion knowing that the same boss is being defeated over and over again.

I envision something much more dymanic:

Take for example an instanced dungeon ruled over by a band of barbarians and their leader. When your group comes in and defeats that leader, a new resident takes up home - a league of humanoid rats for arguments sake - and assumes control of the dungeon. A whole host of dynamic lore and quests could be intertwined with their existence, perhaps as a result of server-wide events. To stop instances changing too quickly, this 'dungeon reset' could be limited to once a week or every fortnight.

Maybe this is beyond current technology, but it's my dream nonetheless. I know Blizzard are toying with quests created on-the-fly in Diablo 3 along with randomly generated dungeons, so who knows...

Sovrath

Originally posted by Zayne3145

Originally posted by Sovrath



I suppose I'm very cognizant of the fact taht I really dislike the idea of static mob standing around waiting to be killed.

 

Absolutely, and killed repeatedly. Nothing destroys immersion knowing that the same boss is being defeated over and over again.

I envision something much more dymanic:

Take for example an instanced dungeon ruled over by a band of barbarians and their leader. When your group comes in and defeats that leader, a new resident takes up home - a league of humanoid rats for arguments sake - and assumes control of the dungeon. A whole host of dynamic lore and quests could be intertwined with their existence, perhaps as a result of server-wide events. To stop instances changing too quickly, this 'dungeon reset' could be limited to once a week or every fortnight.

Maybe this is beyond current technology, but it's my dream nonetheless. I know Blizzard are toying with quests created on-the-fly in Diablo 3 along with randomly generated dungeons, so who knows...

 

Well, I haven't tried it but apparently Hellgate London had some sort of random Dungeon generator.

And I have to agree with you about ruining immersion. When I'm playing LOTRO I just can't stand to go to the misty mountains as it becomes very apparent across the snow covered plains that there are just mobs standing there doing nothing.

It drives me nuts. Heck, at least give them animations like digging in the snow for roots or wandering around and reacting off each other.

This is where Ryzom shined because their mobs actually did things. And reacted to you, even if it was just to come up and sniff.