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Proposition 8 (California)
konrad16660
Member Posts: 182
So, gay marriage is legal in California because it is constitutional. Yunno, that thing out government runs off of that is suppose to adhere to seperation of church and state. I know there is another post about gay marriage, but this one as always is made extremely fun by the fact that there is a poll attached to it. Please, let me know which way you would vote on this proposition. Yes on 8=no gay marriage No on 8 means Gay marriage.
Comments
these kind of threads always make me sad. It's depressing to know there are still so many people who think their religious belief should be enforced onto other people.
Who said anything about religion? It looks like the measure is probably going to pass. That's millions of votes were talking about. Are you telling me that all those people in liberal California who are going to vote for it are religious nuts?
Maybe it has something to do with the way society has best functioned for thousands of years. For as long as there has been civilization.
Who said anything about religion? It looks like the measure is probably going to pass. That's millions of votes were talking about. Are you telling me that all those people in liberal California who are going to vote for it are religious nuts?
Maybe it has something to do with the way society has best functioned for thousands of years. For as long as there has been civilization.
Don't kid yourself, while there may be a person here and there who has actually come up with a different reason, the vast majority of voters do so because their religion.
There is no valid argument against gay marriage. Never has, never will be.
Get real now, you know that this isn't a function of society that's been observed for thousands of years. Throughout history homosexuals have been, at the very least, ostracized and segregated, or at most, put to death for being caught in compromising positions. That doesn't exactly invite discussion or experimentation, now does it?
Gay marriage has been legalized in several areas. What negative impact has it had on those communities? Let's explore the potential problems cited by those who oppose it and see if has actually come to pass.
I am a straight white male and I protest for No against prop 8. When you are out there protesting it is amazing that the only real opposition IS from religious nuts. People blaming a world war III on the gays, as if the US attacking and occupying other nations has nothing to do with it. I hope that Prop 8 does not pass and people can keep their rights. As my mother protested and marched in the civil rights movement for the blacks, I will not stop until everyone is created equal in the United States.
I voted for amendment 2 here in Florida for one simple reason:
Making Gay "Marriage" a legal enforceable thing in a State opens up lawsuits against Churches who do not want to perform such marriages.
Marriage in and of itself is a Religious issue. Civil Unions are a legal issue.
I honestly don't understand why Civil Unions aren't made Legal and they just leave marriage the way it is.
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You are right, the world did use to be like that didn't it?
It also use to have no democracy, people kept slaves and women were property to be sold off at 14. Those were done for much longer than the concepts of equality and rights were in play, no sense in changing it, we should legislate the laws prohibiting that out of existence too.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
They use alot of different ways to scare people into voting for it. They say it will open up lawsuits and teach kids about marriage. Marriage used to be a religious thing. But in this country it ties in with government. In California you cannot even visit your loved one in the hospital if they are dying if you are not legally wed. Also your belonings go up to the state and your partner cannot claim your life insurance. So it is more than just if they can or they can't. I guess I was lucky to be born straight so I am allowed "rights" that are denied to others. But on the day of judgment I was God to look onto me and say that I did the most that I could to help my brothers and my sisters in the world. So I will not stop the fight.
Nobody is demanding that anybody's rights be taken away. All people in the United States already enjoy the same rights as everyone else. What you are asking by legalizing gay marraige is to create a new right that does not now exist (except in three US states where it only recently bacame a right). Our country struggles with competing rights all the time.
For example, studies have clearly demonstrated that children with the best chance of success in life are those who are raised in a two parent household, one being a father and one being a mother. So by changing the definition of traditional marraige, you are superseding some children's right at their greatest chance of success. Life is already tough enough, why make it more difficult for some?
And if you want to talk about denying some people certain rights, America has already done that in her past. It used to be legal in the state of Utah for a man to have multiple wives. The federal government superseded Utah's state law of polygamy. If you legalize gay marraige, I don't see how you cannot make polygamy legal in the US once again.
What it boils down to is which rights are greater for the country? The Civil War was fought over that very argument. The Southern states argued that the right of some people to own slaves was greater than those slaves right to liberty. I am of the belief that liberty trumps the right of some to own slaves.
A similiar agrument exists today with abortion. It is legal in the United States for a woman to abort a baby, which means that a woman's right to not be inconvenienced with a child supersedes that child's right to be born and have a life. Like it or not, that's the argument over abortion in a nutshell.
If you want my honest opinion, I don't think anything is going to stop gay marraige from becoming legal across the United States eventually. That doesn't mean that it's best for the country.
? The world is pretty messed up right now with two parent households. Straight marriage has failed horribly as 50% of people over 6 years get divorced and 65% over lifetime get divorced. In addition the majority of Hispanics and African American households are only run by a mother. The father had run out. Does that mean no one should get married? Or certain races shouldn't get married? The fact is that everyone should have the same rights as Americans. In California gay marriage is already legal. It is constitutional. So over-ruling it would make it un-constitutional.
i'm a christian and i really dont care if others get married or not .... it doesnt effect my life or anything. I dont agree with that persons decision and im not going to treat him any differently then some other random person on the street.
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It was as recent as 1978, I think, that homosexuals were not allowed to teach in Californian schools.
Gays are the last minority group where it is acceptable to discriminate oppress.
It is a real shame, unfortunately.
I think it's pretty obvious that traditional "one man/one woman" marriages opened the discussion about gay marriage. If it weren't for men and women wanting to marry each other, we'd never have gays wanting to marry. So, I think we should make "one man/one woman" marriages illegal to halt the slippery slope.
ALL marriages should be outlawed.
See what it's like to have your rights infringed?
I think it's pretty obvious that traditional "one man/one woman" marriages opened the discussion about gay marriage. If it weren't for men and women wanting to marry each other, we'd never have gays wanting to marry. So, I think we should make "one man/one woman" marriages illegal to halt the slippery slope.
ALL marriages should be outlawed.
See what it's like to have your rights infringed?
Go for it. If you can get a majority of Americans to agree with you, I would abide by the decision. In none of the three states where gay marriage has been legalized, has that happened. In each case a court has bypassed the legislative process and said the people must recognize it. That is not democracy, that is judicial tyranny.
Ideas and beliefs about marriage and sexuality vary WIDELY between different cultures, so "the way society has best functioned for thousands of years" has nothing to do with it.
Even if the statistics about children in two parent households are true, they are meaningless. You cannot deny someone's rights because of statistics. Every individual in any group is innocent until proven guilty. Some might conform to negative stereotypes, others might not.
Besides, preventing gay marriage will not guarantee every child a safe, stable, loving two heterosexual parent home. This is something that seems so obvious, it shouldn't even need to be pointed out. Yet people continue to make that argument.
It will not lead us down a slippery slope, because if I understand correctly, as far as the law is concerned, marriage is simply a contract that grants certain benefits. No one but an adult human can enter into such a contract.
EDIT: Oh, and when have churches ever been forced to perform a marriage against their will? Is there even a precedent for this? I was under the impression that churches refused to marry people all the time for all sorts of reasons.
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Actually studies show that same sex parents are just as capable parents as traditional parents, but I suppose you think that a child has a greater chance of success stuck in a home than being adopted by same sex parents?
About abortion, a fetus can hardly be considered as a child as it has no consciousness whatsoever. You're removing a potential child, which isn't any different than using a condom during sex.
Gay marriage will eventually become legal across the US and it's a good thing. The US can't fall behind when it comes to tolerance and they certainly can't get away with this discrimination that is currently going on.
I once read something profound . Im going to share it now.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident: That all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness..."
i guess i didnt notice after the "..." it said "unless you are gay and a citizen of the United States of America."
Also Lincoln said some great things about this very thing ... ( shocking isnt it!)
Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties.
Abraham Lincoln
he also said ...
The assertion that "all men are created equal" was of no practical use in effecting our separation from Great Britain and it was placed in the Declaration not for that, but for future use.
Abraham Lincoln
I wonder how proud he would be of us today...
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
What the heck are you talking about, son?
Of course it's important to enforce one's own religious beliefs on people. That's why we have a government. It's only unreasonable for others to force their religious beliefs on me.
So, when used in the first person, as in me doing the forcing, it's perfectly acceptable, but when used in the third person, as in me being forced, its a downright abuse of State power.
Do you understand now how that works?
This is so blatently inaccurate.
You ask any ho, men are not created equal, nor are most endowed by their creator.
And some were just physically unable to pursue happiness, at least pre-Viagra.
All those founding fathers were living in fantasy land.
A Constitution is create or validated by the People. For the Californian Constitution, People are attempting to change the Constitution, thereby defining what Marriage is. Once made into the Constitution, this cannot be changed until repealed by the votes of the majority of the People. The California Court cannot over-rule a matter to be Unconstitutional when the matter has been made Constitutional. To do so strips the power of the People away from making any further amendments (for better or for worse) to the Constitution.
To repeal the effects of Prop 8 would need to be done by another Proposition or to go to the Federal Supreme Court.
The proper way to support Sam Sex Marriages is to conduct a campaign and get the majority of the people to support it. Not through the court system. Make wins in states that can be won (either small in size or of a small population), to help build up the cause. California is not the place to do it. Even though there is San Fran, Hollywood and Palm Springs, California is the most populated state, thus one of the most difficult; and then add to it, most Latino Immigrants have a strong Catholic background.
And that is why...
Conservatives' pessimism is conducive to their happiness in three ways. First, they are rarely surprised -- they are right more often than not about the course of events. Second, when they are wrong they are happy to be so. Third, because pessimistic conservatives put not their faith in princes -- government -- they accept that happiness is a function of fending for oneself. They believe that happiness is an activity -- it is inseparable from the pursuit of happiness.
A Constitution is create or validated by the People. For the Californian Constitution, People are attempting to change the Constitution, thereby defining what Marriage is. Once made into the Constitution, this cannot be changed until repealed by the votes of the majority of the People. The California Court cannot over-rule a matter to be Unconstitutional when the matter has been made Constitutional. To do so strips the power of the People away from making any further amendments (for better or for worse) to the Constitution.
To repeal the effects of Prop 8 would need to be done by another Proposition or to go to the Federal Supreme Court.
The proper way to support Sam Sex Marriages is to conduct a campaign and get the majority of the people to support it. Not through the court system. Make wins in states that can be won (either small in size or of a small population), to help build up the cause. California is not the place to do it. Even though there is San Fran, Hollywood and Palm Springs, California is the most populated state, thus one of the most difficult; and then add to it, most Latino Immigrants have a strong Catholic background.
Ok, then Bush shouldn't be president of the United States since he was appointed by the Supreme court. What you are saying is that the supreme court should be banished and we should not accept the decisions of the government of the constitution. Saying that it must be voted in is absurd. If it were that way there is a good possibility slavery would still be allowed in many states.
Negative.
I'll be more clear this time.
The Californian State Constitution if amended by Prop 8 cannot be changed by the Californian Court System because the Californian State Constitution has been changed to the desired effect of the People of California. The Californian Court System cannot rule the Amendment as Unconstitutional since the Californian Court System must abide by what the Californian State Constitution states as amended.
In order for the amended Califoria State Constitution to be changed requires for a new California State Proposition to re-amend (to strike out) the California State Constitution or for the Federal Supreme Court to make a ruling to the effect of the Federal Government has the authority to over-rule State Constitutions, or defined specifically for this matter.
And that is why...
Conservatives' pessimism is conducive to their happiness in three ways. First, they are rarely surprised -- they are right more often than not about the course of events. Second, when they are wrong they are happy to be so. Third, because pessimistic conservatives put not their faith in princes -- government -- they accept that happiness is a function of fending for oneself. They believe that happiness is an activity -- it is inseparable from the pursuit of happiness.
Hehe so you are a conservative that believes in Federal powers over-ruling state powers? Um....check conservative again. I think you might want to re-work your profile and whatnot because you seem confused. Sheesh, and now I sit here feeling like so much more of a conservative than you now. Weee!
How would this make it possible to sue churches who don't perform these marriages? There are churches now who won't perform marriages for people unless they go through an educational course on marriage first. A lot of Catholic churches do that. But no one has sued them yet.
Cabe, do you really believe that would happen? We're just trying to get equal representation under the law. We're not out trying to change the way people worship. Don't be so afraid of equal rights.
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