you know what i do when i dont have time to play MMOs? i play another game my playtime has shrunk in the last month or so majorly, so what i did is went out and bought Mass Effect, I bought STALKER I bought Fallout 3 ... games i can jump in and play as long or as little as i wanted.
I didn't piss and moan, cry and whine till the whole MMO genre changed to my play schedule. I am not an egomaniac that thinks all games should cater to me. thats why i dont play RTS's i understand people like resource management/gathering ... me id rather shoot things. i don't go to an RTS forum demanding them to add fps elements citing numbers and polls about how popular FPS's are.
i just don't play the genre, maybe more casual soloist should reconsider thier choice of genre.
you know what i do when i dont have time to play MMOs? i play another game my playtime has shrunk in the last month or so majorly, so what i did is went out and bought Mass Effect, I bought STALKER I bought Fallout 3 ... games i can jump in and play as long or as little as i wanted. I didn't piss and moan, cry and whine till the whole MMO genre changed to my play schedule. I am not an egomaniac that thinks all games should cater to me. thats why i dont play RTS's i understand people like resource management/gathering ... me id rather shoot things. i don't go to an RTS forum demanding them to add fps elements citing numbers and polls about how popular FPS's are. i just don't play the genre, maybe more casual soloist should reconsider thier choice of genre.
Yea I see that logic in that. However for me, I need to be in the game world with 100s of other players or the game experience feels flat. I wanted to love Mass Effect and Oblivion but I went back to WoW and EQ2. Even though mmos are not as visually exciting as great solo games, they just feel more alive. I play mmos for that living world feel. I get that feeling in a good mmo both in solo and group play.
You ever heard this: LF2M Need tank/healer? As you stand there with bow and arrow in hand, or being stealth With two daggers equipped! I think Dev's need too give all classes benifit for the group. I had a friend choose rougue, soloed the whole game cause he could not get invites to a group and gave up. Or a hunter offering his pet as a tank, and leader saying I rather a defensive spec tank! And offensive spec tank being asked where there shield is? I don't think you have to spec a certain way to contribute, and that's why I am hoping Darkfall will help bring grouping back(cause with that many skills you never know what people can do)!
Soloing is a big thing now especially as mmos want all the subscribers they can get- a mmo allows soloing as a big part of their game and it stretches the appeal of the game to include much more players than perhaps otherwise. This may spell doom and gloom in a way- well at least until the level cap- a more grouping-emphasized game in WoW at the end, but I think mmo companies could actually provide special rule-set servers which are more grouping-specific. For instance in WoW I suggested on it's a forum where maybe all mobs might be elite on a server- this wouldn't be everyone's cup of tea but it would encourage more grouping on this server(or very hardcore soloers...)
You know this is actually a great idea. We have pvp, pve, roleplay, core, launguage specific servers, why not servers that focus more on solo play or group play. This could easily be added to games like WoW, LOTRO and EQ2. A very good simple solution that just might work.
I played CoH. It's fun, but it's not a great grouping game. It's decent fro grouping, bettern than WoW, but not great. The scaling is what makes it not a great grouping game.
I completely disagree with you. I could log on and play with a full group and be challenged, I could duo and feel challenged, or I could solo and feel challenged. I never had a hard time finding a team when I wanted one either. No game has achieved a greater balance between solo / group play IMO.
its definately ruining the community of MMOs as i have said in many other threads in games like EQ1 and DAOC where grouping was the norm and soloing was only done while waiting for a group. I knew tons of people on the server and could tell you about people at the endgame because i grouped with them so much. this add accountability to those games because if you were a stupid jerk and acted like one in game then you might as well reroll your character because your character developement would pretty much end if you did it enough. now with the solo oriented games any halfwit jackhole that can click buttons can get to max level and be a complete douche
Brilliant post!
So how do we correct it...
We make it so that you need a group to do anything significant.
We add a NASTY death penalty, and corpse runs.
Then, when people are idiots, or just bad players, word gets around and they have a tough time advancing.
.. which means you have more of a "world" now, where actions have consequences, and there is accountability.
I too, enjoyed knowing most of the people on my server at the end-game. I enjoyed it in WoW also... even if that game was too easy
Exactly this, and EQ still has "some" of this, though no where near as much as it once did.
I personally would love an old-style EQ in a Forgotten Realms setting - and make it a niche game where soloing is only just barely feasable.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do. Benjamin Franklin
Soloing is a big thing now especially as mmos want all the subscribers they can get- a mmo allows soloing as a big part of their game and it stretches the appeal of the game to include much more players than perhaps otherwise. This may spell doom and gloom in a way- well at least until the level cap- a more grouping-emphasized game in WoW at the end, but I think mmo companies could actually provide special rule-set servers which are more grouping-specific. For instance in WoW I suggested on it's a forum where maybe all mobs might be elite on a server- this wouldn't be everyone's cup of tea but it would encourage more grouping on this server(or very hardcore soloers...)
You know this is actually a great idea. We have pvp, pve, roleplay, core, launguage specific servers, why not servers that focus more on solo play or group play. This could easily be added to games like WoW, LOTRO and EQ2. A very good simple solution that just might work.
You run into far more issues balancing mobs for two seperate styles of gameplay. They essentially have to be turned twice, once for solo and once for group. I did, however, like the way EQII was set up before they did the first revamp and knocked most of the overland content from small group content to solo content. (Some, but not all, classes could still solo efficiently if played with skill.)
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do. Benjamin Franklin
its definately ruining the community of MMOs as i have said in many other threads in games like EQ1 and DAOC where grouping was the norm and soloing was only done while waiting for a group. I knew tons of people on the server and could tell you about people at the endgame because i grouped with them so much. this add accountability to those games because if you were a stupid jerk and acted like one in game then you might as well reroll your character because your character developement would pretty much end if you did it enough. now with the solo oriented games any halfwit jackhole that can click buttons can get to max level and be a complete douche
Brilliant post!
So how do we correct it...
We make it so that you need a group to do anything significant.
We add a NASTY death penalty, and corpse runs.
Then, when people are idiots, or just bad players, word gets around and they have a tough time advancing.
.. which means you have more of a "world" now, where actions have consequences, and there is accountability.
I too, enjoyed knowing most of the people on my server at the end-game. I enjoyed it in WoW also... even if that game was too easy
Exactly this, and EQ still has "some" of this, though no where near as much as it once did.
I personally would love an old-style EQ in a Forgotten Realms setting - and make it a niche game where soloing is only just barely feasable.
Ok, guys, you are not thinking.
SURE the devs can do this. They could have done this at any time. They still can do this.
And you know what?
People who require more solo content will just not log on. Simple as that. No worries there and though a few people will make a stink on some forum somewhere, the rest will just stop their subs or never sub to begin with. I know I did that with LOTRO.
I made no "this is why I am quitting" posts, no proclamations, no hands raised to the heavens to decry my dev overlords.
And you know what?
The devs and investors will look at the money coming in and realize that they need more. It's not all about greedy toothless men, wringing their hands at the thought of millions upon millions. Very often it's about whether or not they can keep the game going, can they keep their employees, can they do more content.
And then they will do what devs do. They add content that will appeal to people who require solo content.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Forced grouping would be (and is) far worse than accomodating solo players. People should group because they want to and it's fun, not because they have to just to play the game.
Forced grouping would be (and is) far worse than accomodating solo players. People should group because they want to and it's fun, not because they have to just to play the game.
No, people play MMOs because they want to and it's fun, people should group because it is the very nature of an MMO. If you don't want to group with anyone ever, whats the point in playing an MMO? Go back to playing Xbox if thats what you want.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike Loved: Star Wars Galaxies Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
its definately ruining the community of MMOs as i have said in many other threads in games like EQ1 and DAOC where grouping was the norm and soloing was only done while waiting for a group. I knew tons of people on the server and could tell you about people at the endgame because i grouped with them so much. this add accountability to those games because if you were a stupid jerk and acted like one in game then you might as well reroll your character because your character developement would pretty much end if you did it enough. now with the solo oriented games any halfwit jackhole that can click buttons can get to max level and be a complete douche
Brilliant post!
So how do we correct it...
We make it so that you need a group to do anything significant.
We add a NASTY death penalty, and corpse runs.
Then, when people are idiots, or just bad players, word gets around and they have a tough time advancing.
.. which means you have more of a "world" now, where actions have consequences, and there is accountability.
I too, enjoyed knowing most of the people on my server at the end-game. I enjoyed it in WoW also... even if that game was too easy
Exactly this, and EQ still has "some" of this, though no where near as much as it once did.
I personally would love an old-style EQ in a Forgotten Realms setting - and make it a niche game where soloing is only just barely feasable.
Ok, guys, you are not thinking.
SURE the devs can do this. They could have done this at any time. They still can do this.
And you know what?
People who require more solo content will just not log on. Simple as that. No worries there and though a few people will make a stink on some forum somewhere, the rest will just stop their subs or never sub to begin with. I know I did that with LOTRO.
I made no "this is why I am quitting" posts, no proclamations, no hands raised to the heavens to decry my dev overlords.
And you know what?
The devs and investors will look at the money coming in and realize that they need more. It's not all about greedy toothless men, wringing their hands at the though of millions upon millions. Very often it's about whether or not they can keep the game going, can they keep their employees, can they do more than add content.
And then they will do what devs do. They add content that will appeal to people who require solo content.
Which is why I was wishing for a niche game, something with just 1 - 3 servers and maybe 50,000 players who enjoyed the group game but had the skill to work with difficult content solo during slow periods. Include a robust tradeskill system, with the abiltiy to pick up multiple meaningful tradeskill classes, an extensive, counter-balanced faction system, and a few solo friendly overland areas (with much reduced xp / minimal loot).
Of course, in the same game you could also set up solo trials on some quests to test individual player skills and some classes could be designed to be a little more solo friendly than others. The group game would be predominant and required to achieve the best rewards though.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do. Benjamin Franklin
I also prefer a grouping game. I loved EQ and daoc. I could solo in both fine, but often it was just more worthwhile to group, especially nearer endgame. I don't mind solo content. i sometimes only have like an hour and will solo a few quests. I remember though in eq2 I would find a couple people to play with for just an hour.
I think soloing should be possible, just very slow. I remember in EQ when they gave exp bonuses to group for the more people you had. So, a MMO should be, lets say 50 levels, if you wanted to solo, it would take you 8 months,, but if you grouped a lot, 2-3. It is difficult to find groups in games today because people are all soloing. It is faster to solo than risk playing with a moron, until you get to higher levels and greater rewards.
Also, people just get too picky sometimes picking classes for the group. They need the perfect setup where a lot of times a not true tank can tank and perhaps a secondary healer could MH for a small group.
I remember back in EQ people not wanting a druid for healer, but my friend easily healed the stuff we were doing before. Even in daoc, some people had to have a warrior, where a thane did just fine, even had a berserker tank np with a shaman with limited healing spec heal. People get too funneled into what is "needed" to work. So as those people LF2M tank and healer looked for 2 hours, I would put together a group in 5 minutes and be fighting for the next 2 hours, lol.
I think that if games do come out where the focus is grouping, they need to give more options on those available to play roles like healing and tanking. vanguard does that well from what I have seen. Any of the tank classes can tank just fine, including raid stuff without 1 being clearly superior. I think even WoW, a paladin can tank fine, unsure of endgame. Games just need options to getting the task done and people not have such narrow vision. And if they do, screw them and make your own group, lol.
Ok, guys, you are not thinking. SURE the devs can do this. They could have done this at any time. They still can do this. And you know what? People who require more solo content will just not log on. Simple as that. No worries there and though a few people will make a stink on some forum somewhere, the rest will just stop their subs or never sub to begin with. I know I did that with LOTRO. I made no "this is why I am quitting" posts, no proclamations, no hands raised to the heavens to decry my dev overlords. And you know what? The devs and investors will look at the money coming in and realize that they need more. It's not all about greedy toothless men, wringing their hands at the though of millions upon millions. Very often it's about whether or not they can keep the game going, can they keep their employees, can they do more than add content. And then they will do what devs do. They add content that will appeal to people who require solo content.
Which is why I was wishing for a niche game, something with just 1 - 3 servers and maybe 50,000 players who enjoyed the group game but had the skill to work with difficult content solo during slow periods. Include a robust tradeskill system, with the abiltiy to pick up multiple meaningful tradeskill classes, an extensive, counter-balanced faction system, and a few solo friendly overland areas (with much reduced xp / minimal loot).
Of course, in the same game you could also set up solo trials on some quests to test individual player skills and some classes could be designed to be a little more solo friendly than others. The group game would be predominant and required to achieve the best rewards though.
Ok, but that niche game is going to be coming from a smaller developer, the graphics might not be contemporary to other games and you probably will have smaller updates. Nothing major.
None of this is necessarily bad. But from the small games that I've seen pass this site, no one seems to be very excited about them.
heck, Ryzom is back. Yet I wonder how many people wanting sandbox games rushed to that game?
I certainly hope it is enough to warrant them bringing it back.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
You don't have to have forced grouping or game mechanics to experience the social aspects of mmo's. When I played swg before the nge hit, I played almost exlcusively solo. There wasn't much you couldn't do solo in swg combat wise. However, and I will always say this, swg had the best community of any mmo I've played. Theres people that I played swg with that I still play other mmo's with today. People socialized with each through player run events, hanging out in the cantinas, waiting in lines to get buffed, waiting for shuttles, defending bases, forming player run cities, buying and selling crafting items, and many other ways. The only times when people generally grouped for combat related stuff was for pvp, some of the high end instances and taking missions from the terminals to get the group xp bonus.
Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?
Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.
SWG, commonly known as a great in-depth mmo was a very solo friendly game. I knew a guy who soloed kryats all day and had a blast every moment. Yet you can't solo a damn thing worthwhile in wow. It seems quite clear to me that your argument is not supported by the facts, because you cannot prove the correlation between soloing and "bad" mmos. What is clear is that mmos are becoming much more shallow, with far less crafting, housing, and world size, things that I find important to a good mmo world. Funny enough, all of those factors support a more solo-friendly type of game. See, being forced to raid with a bunch of nincompoops is not what most people find fun. As so many people here say, we LIKE TO GROUP, but at our own pace and not as a requirement to progress. Perhaps if the op can think outside of the box he'll figure this part out. We've only been saying it for years.
You don't have to have forced grouping or game mechanics to experience the social aspects of mmo's. When I played swg before the nge hit, I played almost exlcusively solo. There wasn't much you couldn't do solo in swg combat wise. However, and I will always say this, swg had the best community of any mmo I've played. Theres people that I played swg with that I still play other mmo's with today. People socialized with each through player run events, hanging out in the cantinas, waiting in lines to get buffed, waiting for shuttles, defending bases, forming player run cities, buying and selling crafting items, and many other ways. The only times when people generally grouped for combat related stuff was for pvp, some of the high end instances and taking missions from the terminals to get the group xp bonus.
This is true. I was a huge fan of pre-nge SWG and this is exactly how I played and it worked. You do not have to group and fight together to have a great mmo experience. You need smart game developers who offer tons of possibilities for players to use their creativity. SWG did this better then any mmo that has been made. This freedom to be creative lead to great social events in SWG. I am waitng for some developer to do this again. I have a feeling it will be a long wait.
SWG, commonly known as a great in-depth mmo was a very solo friendly game. I knew a guy who soloed kryats all day and had a blast every moment. Yet you can't solo a damn thing worthwhile in wow. It seems quite clear to me that your argument is not supported by the facts, because you cannot prove the correlation between soloing and "bad" mmos. What is clear is that mmos are becoming much more shallow, with far less crafting, housing, and world size, things that I find important to a good mmo world. Funny enough, all of those factors support a more solo-friendly type of game. See, being forced to raid with a bunch of nincompoops is not what most people find fun. As so many people here say, we LIKE TO GROUP, but at our own pace and not as a requirement to progress. Perhaps if the op can think outside of the box he'll figure this part out. We've only been saying it for years.
To defend a game by saying that, all I can say are you 80? Nincompoops, I forgot what that even means, when I was 20! You are very religious, or from Nebraska. Well not bashing on other players I would like the former swg return to it's player base! We will never see that, as long as uninspired games are allowed to continue.
(Title paraphrased from someone else in another thread) Bottom line... In order to make a game solo-friendly, you have to make it easy. (Please don't insult us by claiming your 1337 game play is what allows you to solo ALL recently released MMO's... they are easy, stupidly easy, period.) If it is easy, it is no challenge for a group. There is no need to play well, no need to coordinate, it gets very stale, very fast... which leads people to solo. Why bother grouping. In other words, if you *can* solo, you will. The social aspect of the MMO is severely diminished. Thus, IMO, soloing is killing MMO's. It should be *possible*, but only barely, with only limited options to do so.
I order to make the game solo-friendly you need to create challenges for each class.
As for the rest of your post, it's complete rubbish. UO was probably one of the most solo-friendly games out there and yet it had a very strong community. And it's still going now, 10 years after it was released.
Developers erroneously use forced grouping as a way to get people to socialize. Interestingly enough, most of the people I ever grouped with in all the MMOs I've ever played, I would not want to group with ever again. So is forced grouping really bringing the community together? My opinion is that it tends to backfire and force people to actually seek viable solo options.
A much better way to bring the community of an MMO together, is to offer community tools. Housing, player towns, player made quests and events. A way for players to interact with each other outside of fighting and combat.
Forced grouping is a cheap tactic which made sense in a PnP Dungeons and Dragons game because the whole concept revolves around a group of individuals sitting around a table "adventuring" together, at the same time. In an MMO where people are constantly logging in and out, it's not a very good option. That is not to say that developers need to do away with grouping all together. It's a viable play style that needs to be supported but making it a be all end all of an MMO is definitly the wrong way to go.
(Title paraphrased from someone else in another thread) Bottom line... In order to make a game solo-friendly, you have to make it easy. (Please don't insult us by claiming your 1337 game play is what allows you to solo ALL recently released MMO's... they are easy, stupidly easy, period.) If it is easy, it is no challenge for a group. There is no need to play well, no need to coordinate, it gets very stale, very fast... which leads people to solo. Why bother grouping. In other words, if you *can* solo, you will. The social aspect of the MMO is severely diminished. Thus, IMO, soloing is killing MMO's. It should be *possible*, but only barely, with only limited options to do so.
They should just handle things the way they do in CoX where the difficulty and number of mobs (thus xp) scale with group size, and you can scale it even further on your own.
That solves pretty much all group/solo risk vs reward problems.
Venge Sunsoar
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Nope. Personally, I wouldn't play MMOs without lots of solo contents. And I'm pretty sure that solo options is one of the major reasons for ie WoW's success.
I played FFXI for a long time. Unless you're a certain class, you can hardly wipe your own butt without waiting for a party (group) for up to several hours, and in worst cases (DRG anyone?), even days.
That eventually killed FFXI for me, even though I will always remember it as one of the best games I've ever played. But anything like that again = no thanks.
It also looks like you don't understand that fighting isn't the only was to interact with other players. I talk with guildies/friends all the time while doing solo quests, not having someone else to deliver extra blows to those mobs doesn't ruin the social aspect, at least not for me.
(Title paraphrased from someone else in another thread) Bottom line... In order to make a game solo-friendly, you have to make it easy. (Please don't insult us by claiming your 1337 game play is what allows you to solo ALL recently released MMO's... they are easy, stupidly easy, period.) If it is easy, it is no challenge for a group. There is no need to play well, no need to coordinate, it gets very stale, very fast... which leads people to solo. Why bother grouping. In other words, if you *can* solo, you will. The social aspect of the MMO is severely diminished. Thus, IMO, soloing is killing MMO's. It should be *possible*, but only barely, with only limited options to do so.
You got it partially wrong.
Solo friendly playstyle isn't the problem, it's just that developpers don'(t make group play MUCH more rewarding than solo play, only slightly better.
Group play means gathering a party at point A , going to point B, and fighting harder mobs. ALl those factors should make developpers triple the exp reward and give players much more powerful items than a solo player would get.
My addiction History: >> EQ1 2000-2004 - Shaman/Bard/Wizard/Monk - nolife raid-whore >> WoW 2004-2009 + Cataclysm for 2 months - hardcore casual >> Current status : done with MMO, too old for that crap.
As a MMO player who likes to solo i have to agree with the OP.
I do think games should have solo content, because there is a large group that wants it, but the game should not be as solo friendly as say WoW is.
I think the main problem is with the soloers themselves, at least some of them. I solo'd quite a bit in EQ, i actually prefered it though i did like grouping with my guild. But i also knew that by soloing i was going to miss out on alot of stuff in game be it places or loot. The problem is the soloers who want to solo all the time but still be able to get all the best loot and see all the cool places. Unfortunetly the devs have listened to these people who want it all but are unwilling to put in the time it took to get it.
As a soloer i chose not to do 9 hour raids in order to get great gear, but i respected those that were willing to put in the time to do those raids. Then the soloers popped up who whinned that they should be able to get that same gear by themselves that the group of 6 or 30 would get. Ya, that makes sense.
I agree that the community goes down the toilet when you have pure solo content. I was only in a handfull of groups in WoW and that was mainly just to get a quest item that was somewhat difficult to get alone. But there was not community to those groups, when someone would loot the item, they would drop out of the group and leave, rarely with even a "Thanks, Goodbye". If you did that in a game like EQ or DAOC or FFXI it was doubtfull that you would get into a group with any of those guys again.
Comments
you know what i do when i dont have time to play MMOs? i play another game my playtime has shrunk in the last month or so majorly, so what i did is went out and bought Mass Effect, I bought STALKER I bought Fallout 3 ... games i can jump in and play as long or as little as i wanted.
I didn't piss and moan, cry and whine till the whole MMO genre changed to my play schedule. I am not an egomaniac that thinks all games should cater to me. thats why i dont play RTS's i understand people like resource management/gathering ... me id rather shoot things. i don't go to an RTS forum demanding them to add fps elements citing numbers and polls about how popular FPS's are.
i just don't play the genre, maybe more casual soloist should reconsider thier choice of genre.
Old UO could be played by everyone took dedication to master. If mmos weren't such loot whoring POS we wouldn't need to have this debate.
Give the power back to the character.
Yea I see that logic in that. However for me, I need to be in the game world with 100s of other players or the game experience feels flat. I wanted to love Mass Effect and Oblivion but I went back to WoW and EQ2. Even though mmos are not as visually exciting as great solo games, they just feel more alive. I play mmos for that living world feel. I get that feeling in a good mmo both in solo and group play.
Grouping and soloing,
You ever heard this: LF2M Need tank/healer? As you stand there with bow and arrow in hand, or being stealth With two daggers equipped! I think Dev's need too give all classes benifit for the group. I had a friend choose rougue, soloed the whole game cause he could not get invites to a group and gave up. Or a hunter offering his pet as a tank, and leader saying I rather a defensive spec tank! And offensive spec tank being asked where there shield is? I don't think you have to spec a certain way to contribute, and that's why I am hoping Darkfall will help bring grouping back(cause with that many skills you never know what people can do)!
You know this is actually a great idea. We have pvp, pve, roleplay, core, launguage specific servers, why not servers that focus more on solo play or group play. This could easily be added to games like WoW, LOTRO and EQ2. A very good simple solution that just might work.
I completely disagree with you. I could log on and play with a full group and be challenged, I could duo and feel challenged, or I could solo and feel challenged. I never had a hard time finding a team when I wanted one either. No game has achieved a greater balance between solo / group play IMO.
Brilliant post!
So how do we correct it...
We make it so that you need a group to do anything significant.
We add a NASTY death penalty, and corpse runs.
Then, when people are idiots, or just bad players, word gets around and they have a tough time advancing.
.. which means you have more of a "world" now, where actions have consequences, and there is accountability.
I too, enjoyed knowing most of the people on my server at the end-game. I enjoyed it in WoW also... even if that game was too easy
Exactly this, and EQ still has "some" of this, though no where near as much as it once did.
I personally would love an old-style EQ in a Forgotten Realms setting - and make it a niche game where soloing is only just barely feasable.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
You know this is actually a great idea. We have pvp, pve, roleplay, core, launguage specific servers, why not servers that focus more on solo play or group play. This could easily be added to games like WoW, LOTRO and EQ2. A very good simple solution that just might work.
You run into far more issues balancing mobs for two seperate styles of gameplay. They essentially have to be turned twice, once for solo and once for group. I did, however, like the way EQII was set up before they did the first revamp and knocked most of the overland content from small group content to solo content. (Some, but not all, classes could still solo efficiently if played with skill.)
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
Brilliant post!
So how do we correct it...
We make it so that you need a group to do anything significant.
We add a NASTY death penalty, and corpse runs.
Then, when people are idiots, or just bad players, word gets around and they have a tough time advancing.
.. which means you have more of a "world" now, where actions have consequences, and there is accountability.
I too, enjoyed knowing most of the people on my server at the end-game. I enjoyed it in WoW also... even if that game was too easy
Exactly this, and EQ still has "some" of this, though no where near as much as it once did.
I personally would love an old-style EQ in a Forgotten Realms setting - and make it a niche game where soloing is only just barely feasable.
Ok, guys, you are not thinking.
SURE the devs can do this. They could have done this at any time. They still can do this.
And you know what?
People who require more solo content will just not log on. Simple as that. No worries there and though a few people will make a stink on some forum somewhere, the rest will just stop their subs or never sub to begin with. I know I did that with LOTRO.
I made no "this is why I am quitting" posts, no proclamations, no hands raised to the heavens to decry my dev overlords.
And you know what?
The devs and investors will look at the money coming in and realize that they need more. It's not all about greedy toothless men, wringing their hands at the thought of millions upon millions. Very often it's about whether or not they can keep the game going, can they keep their employees, can they do more content.
And then they will do what devs do. They add content that will appeal to people who require solo content.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Forced grouping would be (and is) far worse than accomodating solo players. People should group because they want to and it's fun, not because they have to just to play the game.
No, people play MMOs because they want to and it's fun, people should group because it is the very nature of an MMO. If you don't want to group with anyone ever, whats the point in playing an MMO? Go back to playing Xbox if thats what you want.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
Brilliant post!
So how do we correct it...
We make it so that you need a group to do anything significant.
We add a NASTY death penalty, and corpse runs.
Then, when people are idiots, or just bad players, word gets around and they have a tough time advancing.
.. which means you have more of a "world" now, where actions have consequences, and there is accountability.
I too, enjoyed knowing most of the people on my server at the end-game. I enjoyed it in WoW also... even if that game was too easy
Exactly this, and EQ still has "some" of this, though no where near as much as it once did.
I personally would love an old-style EQ in a Forgotten Realms setting - and make it a niche game where soloing is only just barely feasable.
Ok, guys, you are not thinking.
SURE the devs can do this. They could have done this at any time. They still can do this.
And you know what?
People who require more solo content will just not log on. Simple as that. No worries there and though a few people will make a stink on some forum somewhere, the rest will just stop their subs or never sub to begin with. I know I did that with LOTRO.
I made no "this is why I am quitting" posts, no proclamations, no hands raised to the heavens to decry my dev overlords.
And you know what?
The devs and investors will look at the money coming in and realize that they need more. It's not all about greedy toothless men, wringing their hands at the though of millions upon millions. Very often it's about whether or not they can keep the game going, can they keep their employees, can they do more than add content.
And then they will do what devs do. They add content that will appeal to people who require solo content.
Which is why I was wishing for a niche game, something with just 1 - 3 servers and maybe 50,000 players who enjoyed the group game but had the skill to work with difficult content solo during slow periods. Include a robust tradeskill system, with the abiltiy to pick up multiple meaningful tradeskill classes, an extensive, counter-balanced faction system, and a few solo friendly overland areas (with much reduced xp / minimal loot).
Of course, in the same game you could also set up solo trials on some quests to test individual player skills and some classes could be designed to be a little more solo friendly than others. The group game would be predominant and required to achieve the best rewards though.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
I also prefer a grouping game. I loved EQ and daoc. I could solo in both fine, but often it was just more worthwhile to group, especially nearer endgame. I don't mind solo content. i sometimes only have like an hour and will solo a few quests. I remember though in eq2 I would find a couple people to play with for just an hour.
I think soloing should be possible, just very slow. I remember in EQ when they gave exp bonuses to group for the more people you had. So, a MMO should be, lets say 50 levels, if you wanted to solo, it would take you 8 months,, but if you grouped a lot, 2-3. It is difficult to find groups in games today because people are all soloing. It is faster to solo than risk playing with a moron, until you get to higher levels and greater rewards.
Also, people just get too picky sometimes picking classes for the group. They need the perfect setup where a lot of times a not true tank can tank and perhaps a secondary healer could MH for a small group.
I remember back in EQ people not wanting a druid for healer, but my friend easily healed the stuff we were doing before. Even in daoc, some people had to have a warrior, where a thane did just fine, even had a berserker tank np with a shaman with limited healing spec heal. People get too funneled into what is "needed" to work. So as those people LF2M tank and healer looked for 2 hours, I would put together a group in 5 minutes and be fighting for the next 2 hours, lol.
I think that if games do come out where the focus is grouping, they need to give more options on those available to play roles like healing and tanking. vanguard does that well from what I have seen. Any of the tank classes can tank just fine, including raid stuff without 1 being clearly superior. I think even WoW, a paladin can tank fine, unsure of endgame. Games just need options to getting the task done and people not have such narrow vision. And if they do, screw them and make your own group, lol.
Which is why I was wishing for a niche game, something with just 1 - 3 servers and maybe 50,000 players who enjoyed the group game but had the skill to work with difficult content solo during slow periods. Include a robust tradeskill system, with the abiltiy to pick up multiple meaningful tradeskill classes, an extensive, counter-balanced faction system, and a few solo friendly overland areas (with much reduced xp / minimal loot).
Of course, in the same game you could also set up solo trials on some quests to test individual player skills and some classes could be designed to be a little more solo friendly than others. The group game would be predominant and required to achieve the best rewards though.
Ok, but that niche game is going to be coming from a smaller developer, the graphics might not be contemporary to other games and you probably will have smaller updates. Nothing major.
None of this is necessarily bad. But from the small games that I've seen pass this site, no one seems to be very excited about them.
heck, Ryzom is back. Yet I wonder how many people wanting sandbox games rushed to that game?
I certainly hope it is enough to warrant them bringing it back.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
You don't have to have forced grouping or game mechanics to experience the social aspects of mmo's. When I played swg before the nge hit, I played almost exlcusively solo. There wasn't much you couldn't do solo in swg combat wise. However, and I will always say this, swg had the best community of any mmo I've played. Theres people that I played swg with that I still play other mmo's with today. People socialized with each through player run events, hanging out in the cantinas, waiting in lines to get buffed, waiting for shuttles, defending bases, forming player run cities, buying and selling crafting items, and many other ways. The only times when people generally grouped for combat related stuff was for pvp, some of the high end instances and taking missions from the terminals to get the group xp bonus.
Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?
Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.
SWG, commonly known as a great in-depth mmo was a very solo friendly game. I knew a guy who soloed kryats all day and had a blast every moment. Yet you can't solo a damn thing worthwhile in wow. It seems quite clear to me that your argument is not supported by the facts, because you cannot prove the correlation between soloing and "bad" mmos. What is clear is that mmos are becoming much more shallow, with far less crafting, housing, and world size, things that I find important to a good mmo world. Funny enough, all of those factors support a more solo-friendly type of game. See, being forced to raid with a bunch of nincompoops is not what most people find fun. As so many people here say, we LIKE TO GROUP, but at our own pace and not as a requirement to progress. Perhaps if the op can think outside of the box he'll figure this part out. We've only been saying it for years.
This is true. I was a huge fan of pre-nge SWG and this is exactly how I played and it worked. You do not have to group and fight together to have a great mmo experience. You need smart game developers who offer tons of possibilities for players to use their creativity. SWG did this better then any mmo that has been made. This freedom to be creative lead to great social events in SWG. I am waitng for some developer to do this again. I have a feeling it will be a long wait.
Nincompoops,
I like SWG PRE-CU,
To defend a game by saying that, all I can say are you 80? Nincompoops, I forgot what that even means, when I was 20! You are very religious, or from Nebraska. Well not bashing on other players I would like the former swg return to it's player base! We will never see that, as long as uninspired games are allowed to continue.
That's why I only play in PVP servers in WoW - brings back the need to group.
I order to make the game solo-friendly you need to create challenges for each class.
As for the rest of your post, it's complete rubbish. UO was probably one of the most solo-friendly games out there and yet it had a very strong community. And it's still going now, 10 years after it was released.
Developers erroneously use forced grouping as a way to get people to socialize. Interestingly enough, most of the people I ever grouped with in all the MMOs I've ever played, I would not want to group with ever again. So is forced grouping really bringing the community together? My opinion is that it tends to backfire and force people to actually seek viable solo options.
A much better way to bring the community of an MMO together, is to offer community tools. Housing, player towns, player made quests and events. A way for players to interact with each other outside of fighting and combat.
Forced grouping is a cheap tactic which made sense in a PnP Dungeons and Dragons game because the whole concept revolves around a group of individuals sitting around a table "adventuring" together, at the same time. In an MMO where people are constantly logging in and out, it's not a very good option. That is not to say that developers need to do away with grouping all together. It's a viable play style that needs to be supported but making it a be all end all of an MMO is definitly the wrong way to go.
They should just handle things the way they do in CoX where the difficulty and number of mobs (thus xp) scale with group size, and you can scale it even further on your own.
That solves pretty much all group/solo risk vs reward problems.
Venge Sunsoar
Nope. Personally, I wouldn't play MMOs without lots of solo contents. And I'm pretty sure that solo options is one of the major reasons for ie WoW's success.
I played FFXI for a long time. Unless you're a certain class, you can hardly wipe your own butt without waiting for a party (group) for up to several hours, and in worst cases (DRG anyone?), even days.
That eventually killed FFXI for me, even though I will always remember it as one of the best games I've ever played. But anything like that again = no thanks.
It also looks like you don't understand that fighting isn't the only was to interact with other players. I talk with guildies/friends all the time while doing solo quests, not having someone else to deliver extra blows to those mobs doesn't ruin the social aspect, at least not for me.
You got it partially wrong.
Solo friendly playstyle isn't the problem, it's just that developpers don'(t make group play MUCH more rewarding than solo play, only slightly better.
Group play means gathering a party at point A , going to point B, and fighting harder mobs. ALl those factors should make developpers triple the exp reward and give players much more powerful items than a solo player would get.
My addiction History:
>> EQ1 2000-2004 - Shaman/Bard/Wizard/Monk - nolife raid-whore
>> WoW 2004-2009 + Cataclysm for 2 months - hardcore casual
>> Current status : done with MMO, too old for that crap.
As a MMO player who likes to solo i have to agree with the OP.
I do think games should have solo content, because there is a large group that wants it, but the game should not be as solo friendly as say WoW is.
I think the main problem is with the soloers themselves, at least some of them. I solo'd quite a bit in EQ, i actually prefered it though i did like grouping with my guild. But i also knew that by soloing i was going to miss out on alot of stuff in game be it places or loot. The problem is the soloers who want to solo all the time but still be able to get all the best loot and see all the cool places. Unfortunetly the devs have listened to these people who want it all but are unwilling to put in the time it took to get it.
As a soloer i chose not to do 9 hour raids in order to get great gear, but i respected those that were willing to put in the time to do those raids. Then the soloers popped up who whinned that they should be able to get that same gear by themselves that the group of 6 or 30 would get. Ya, that makes sense.
I agree that the community goes down the toilet when you have pure solo content. I was only in a handfull of groups in WoW and that was mainly just to get a quest item that was somewhat difficult to get alone. But there was not community to those groups, when someone would loot the item, they would drop out of the group and leave, rarely with even a "Thanks, Goodbye". If you did that in a game like EQ or DAOC or FFXI it was doubtfull that you would get into a group with any of those guys again.
So, yes to solo content in MMOs, No to solo MMOs.