I'm all in favor of making MMO's more group orientated. I've also said many times that MMO's are becoming way too easy. Barring that however, the majority of the people have spoken, they want easy solo content. The game companies listen to what people say with thier wallet. Forcing people to group for the sake of grouping will not work though, it will only create resentment. I agree with you that soloing should still be an option but it should be very slow progress and the rewards kept minimal. That way people have something to do while looking for a group and don't get bored sitting in town spamming in the LFG channel.
That's what people call "forced grouping". If they can't make just as much progress solo as a group, then they call it forced grouping.
You just said, we dont' need forced grouping in a game because it causes resentment, but games should have forced grouping.
I'm all in favor of making MMO's more group orientated. I've also said many times that MMO's are becoming way too easy. Barring that however, the majority of the people have spoken, they want easy solo content. The game companies listen to what people say with thier wallet. Forcing people to group for the sake of grouping will not work though, it will only create resentment. I agree with you that soloing should still be an option but it should be very slow progress and the rewards kept minimal. That way people have something to do while looking for a group and don't get bored sitting in town spamming in the LFG channel.
That's what people call "forced grouping". If they can't make just as much progress solo as a group, then they call it forced grouping.
You just said, we dont' need forced grouping in a game because it causes resentment, but games should have forced grouping.
What people aren't realizing is that making a game where grouping is the norm will not do what these players think it will.
There weren't that many people who played the early games. Not as compared to today. Part of that could of course be the geeky stigma of the whole thing and part of it could be that it just took too much time. So only those people who were into this type of entertainment played them.
Now, create a game where you don't need to spend innordinate amount of time if you don't want to and make it user friendly and you suddently get more people willing to try and play it.
So sure, make a more group oriented game like the games of yore and you will get a very predictable scenario. Only those who want this type of game will play it.
Now, that's fine of course. The problem is, game developement being what it is, you will only find smaller studios making these games. It might not have all the bells and whistles, maybe not have top notch graphics.
Again, not a huge issue for some but it's so risky to do this that there are just fewer new devs even trying. And it's understandable.
Easy enough for you all with your regular jobs to say "I want better games" and then people go into the field, their game fails and they are out of a job. Most people work jobs because they need the money and they might even have to help support families.
On top of that there is saving for retirement. So we aren't going to see as many games come out of these indy studios.
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This lashing out at solo players for the PoS mmo we currently have is such complete and utter bullshit. UO the best mmo to date imho could be soloed from beging to end if you were a smart/skilled enough player. You had to think about where and when you should hunt, have a escape plan or never carry more you were willing to loose because death was common, but you were never forced to do anything. But then power was in the character and his build over how much time he spent in forced groups gear farming.
What is truely screwing up the genre is mmo have become all about racing to end game with forced groups and raids instead of the journey of your character from beginning to end.
People should never be forced to group. Grouping should have benefits but soloing should always be an option. Abrahmm if we go by your logic that all people should group because it is the nature of an mmo then all should rp because they are mmorpg.
I understand your point. And truthfully, there's nothing wrong with designing an MMO to be that way, but, it's wrong to say all MMOs should be that way just because they are MMOs. I've no doubt that having an MMO that made it difficult to solo in places and impossible in others would attract certain types of players. I would guess, though, that with today's online gaming being what it is, it would attract a smaller crowd than most. When DDO launched, it was like this, and many begged for more solo content, and slowly Turbine gave it to them. This was a decision made to keep subscriptions, to keep the cash flow going so the servers could stay on. To use your analogy, an MMO doesn't have to be like football. It can be like basketball, which can be fun with a team of 5 or 1 on 1. Simply put, forcing grouping on players means removing options from the game. I must disagree with the notion that if you make something soloable, then it will, by default, be bad for a group. I think games can be designed to be good for both, and I'd use CoH as an example. It scales wonderfully, with both the difficulty and the exp ramping up based on the number of players on the team. So, do I think all MMOs should accomodate soloing? No, but I think it would be in their best interests to do so. I do strongly believe that there is more than one way to define an MMO though, and that 'must group' is not part of that definition.
What swamprob said.
Sorry, CoH doesn't satisfy my need for a good grouping game. Yes I played it, yes it was fun, yes you can find groups, and YES the solo friendly aspect ruins the potential for it to be a great grouping game.
No, I don't think ALL MMORPGs should be for grouping, but neitehr should ALL MMORPGs be for solo play.
I would put CoH firmly in the solo friendly category. If you like to solo, sure you think the game is great, and you think it does a great job for being a group game, but it's completely mediocre in terms of being a good grouping game, IMO.
The scaling feature that you are applauding is the reason it sucks as a good grouping game.
To use your analogy, sure, you can make an MMORPG like anything you want. It doesn't even have to have a game, it can be like Second Life.
Sure, you can make it a 1vs1 solo friendly game, like basketball. But if you are playing 1v1 on the basket ball court while I want to play an actual team game of basketball, you're going to screw up my basketball game.
No, not every MMORPG has to be like football, but that's the game I want to play, and no you can't play both games on teh same field at the same time. It won't work.
I disagree, the scaling is what makes COH the best at allowing both solo and grouping in a game. Add in sidekicking and you got a real winner going on here. Are you being a bit inflexible?
I understand your point. And truthfully, there's nothing wrong with designing an MMO to be that way, but, it's wrong to say all MMOs should be that way just because they are MMOs. I've no doubt that having an MMO that made it difficult to solo in places and impossible in others would attract certain types of players. I would guess, though, that with today's online gaming being what it is, it would attract a smaller crowd than most. When DDO launched, it was like this, and many begged for more solo content, and slowly Turbine gave it to them. This was a decision made to keep subscriptions, to keep the cash flow going so the servers could stay on. To use your analogy, an MMO doesn't have to be like football. It can be like basketball, which can be fun with a team of 5 or 1 on 1. Simply put, forcing grouping on players means removing options from the game. I must disagree with the notion that if you make something soloable, then it will, by default, be bad for a group. I think games can be designed to be good for both, and I'd use CoH as an example. It scales wonderfully, with both the difficulty and the exp ramping up based on the number of players on the team. So, do I think all MMOs should accomodate soloing? No, but I think it would be in their best interests to do so. I do strongly believe that there is more than one way to define an MMO though, and that 'must group' is not part of that definition.
What swamprob said.
Sorry, CoH doesn't satisfy my need for a good grouping game. Yes I played it, yes it was fun, yes you can find groups, and YES the solo friendly aspect ruins the potential for it to be a great grouping game.
No, I don't think ALL MMORPGs should be for grouping, but neitehr should ALL MMORPGs be for solo play.
I would put CoH firmly in the solo friendly category. If you like to solo, sure you think the game is great, and you think it does a great job for being a group game, but it's completely mediocre in terms of being a good grouping game, IMO.
The scaling feature that you are applauding is the reason it sucks as a good grouping game.
To use your analogy, sure, you can make an MMORPG like anything you want. It doesn't even have to have a game, it can be like Second Life.
Sure, you can make it a 1vs1 solo friendly game, like basketball. But if you are playing 1v1 on the basket ball court while I want to play an actual team game of basketball, you're going to screw up my basketball game.
No, not every MMORPG has to be like football, but that's the game I want to play, and no you can't play both games on teh same field at the same time. It won't work.
I disagree, the scaling is what makes COH the best at allowing both solo and grouping in a game. Add in sidekicking and you got a real winner going on here. Are you being a bit inflexible?
I honestly don't know what being flexible has to do with what I find fun and challenging.
The fact that the "missions" in CoH scale takes away from the challenge, and therefore the fun and grouping aspect of the game.
If you like instanced dungeons that scale to your party, that's fine. I don't have any problem with what you find enjoyable in a game.
It takes away from the immersion for me, if the encounter scales in difficulty. I want it to be a set obstacle, that I can overcome, not somethign that adjusts so that I can win.
I disagree with the OP; MMOs aren't ruined they are just different then they once were. I think most MMOs have a good balance, you can solo quests, but there are certain areas and quests that you have to do as a group. Now I don't whine when I can't get uber-loot because I can't find a group, or I won't raid, I just accept that. I agree that there are some really unreasonable people who seem to think that they should be able to do absolutely everything in a game by themselves. One of the strengths of MMOs is that you can group with other people to overcome obstacles that are impossible by yourself, so there has to be tough dungeons and raids. On the other hand I do get tired of all high end content being raid related.
I have to agree with the OP to a point. I also think a lot of posters here aren't really looking at the big picture, just at how this criticism affects their own playstyles.
IMO, the ease of soloing in a MMO is inversely proportionate to the quality of its community. When you give people the ease of ability to go through content that rewards them similarly to what group content does, then it makes it easy for people to be completely inconsiderate (seeing as how they already have internet anonymity) toward the common player. What you wind up breeding is a playerbase of asshats with the I want it now mentality, and they don't care who it affects- they don't need to because grouping isn't a necessity.
I agree there should be some solo content, in the case that you happen to be on offpeak hours and it just isn't possible to get a group of necessary classes/levels, but I also think that it should be limited to the exploring type things as in CoH, PQs as in Warhammer (although fewer), solo questing (but at a much, much worse reward for time invested than any grouping), or tradeskills. It'd also be nice if instead of opening servers for EU, Oceania, and US they opened them advertising a peak hour range so that people could join a server based on their playtime instead of the area they are in (I understand the current way somewhat deals with this in timezones but not nearly enough).
Basically, unless you want a community of brats, as a dev you'd better reward for grouping and punish for soloing.
I have to agree with the OP to a point. I also think a lot of posters here aren't really looking at the big picture, just at how this criticism affects their own playstyles.
IMO, the ease of soloing in a MMO is inversely proportionate to the quality of its community. When you give people the ease of ability to go through content that rewards them similarly to what group content does, then it makes it easy for people to be completely inconsiderate (seeing as how they already have internet anonymity) toward the common player. What you wind up breeding is a playerbase of asshats with the I want it now mentality, and they don't care who it affects- they don't need to because grouping isn't a necessity.
I agree there should be some solo content, in the case that you happen to be on offpeak hours and it just isn't possible to get a group of necessary classes/levels, but I also think that it should be limited to the exploring type things as in CoH, PQs as in Warhammer (although fewer), solo questing (but at a much, much worse reward for time invested than any grouping), or tradeskills. It'd also be nice if instead of opening servers for EU, Oceania, and US they opened them advertising a peak hour range so that people could join a server based on their playtime instead of the area they are in (I understand the current way somewhat deals with this in timezones but not nearly enough).
Basically, unless you want a community of brats, as a dev you'd better reward for grouping and punish for soloing.
Ok, but you are doing the same thing. You are making value judgements based upon what you perceive is the outcome of solo content. Personally, I think you miss the mark. I've known MANY "soloers". These are men and women who have odd hours, don't mind grouping but would also like to take the content at their own speed.
And none of them are asshats. I would also like to point out that I have grouped with MANY asshats.
People who solo don't necessarily hate grouping. But they do have a need to experience the content in a way that makes sense to their lives.
It could be that they have odd schedules or want to take their time or even quickly push through the content.
In DDO I have done quite a lot of soloing because otherwise it ends up being a speed race to get through the instance. I remember on several ocassions being asked to help out and pretty much just following everyone's lead as it was a marathon speed session to get through it all. I still have no idea as to why I was doing the particular quest or the story behind it.
Another thing is that once in a group you have to suffer through the whims of the group. This could be anything from bad players, players who take too many breaks or who have very particular ways they want to do the current mission.
Or the incessant whining and complaining or just topics of conversation that one doesn't want to hear.
I also believe that many of the solers (myself included) mostly group in guilds because at least you can be with like minded people.
The thing is that this is never going to be agreed upon. This is the umpteenth millionth thread about the same topic.
What it comes down to is that there is a group of people who like to "group" and that they are having problems finding games that support this. Well, I'm sorry about that. My first bit of advice is that you just find other groupers. One would think that with all the threads that there would be more than enough to accomodate your playstyle. Of course then you have the argument that games aren't supporting groups. Not sure if that's true, or at least from the games I've seen. I always see people looking for groups.
And funny enough, there are always these disparate people looking for groups but none of them put 2 and 2 together to realize that "they" make up a group.
then again, perhaps they are part of those people who are looking for the perfect group.
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The only reason we have the solo versus group problem is because the designers painted themselves into a corner. Since they've made the games about nothing other than combat, loots, and classes, they've produced games that are vulnerable to being unfriendly toward one or the other.
I think the best accomodation a game can make to solitary gamers is a robust tradeskill or crafting segment. The fact that the games these days don't offer anything other than PvP and PvE combat makes the solo/group issue become that much more sailent.
That being said, the best accomodation a game can make to group oriented players is to get rid of "/join." That is to say, make it so you don't have to mechanically "group up" just to game with each other.
Really now, "grouping" as it is done today is just a contrived, immersion breaking gimmick designed to put "gameyness" over "immersiveness." Just like we don't have to yell "/group" to do things with other people, so too should we be able to do things with as many or as few people we see fit without having some arbitrary "group" distinction as part of our experience.
The reason this solo versus group thing is such an issue is because the games these days are all about combat, and since there isn't anything else to do but combat, the designers are nothing more than tightrope walkers trying to balance the combat metrics and loot tables. The developers want us to play combat games, not virtual simulations.
But if we abandon the concept of lootables and go toward crafting, all of the sudden the solo/group controversy starts to become meaningless, because killing things isn't the way gear is acquired.
And if we abandon the idea of having to "/join" a group in order to do things together, we no longer need to worry about "groups" or "solo players," because we'll all just play as solo players who come together.
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The only reason we have the solo versus group problem is because the designers painted themselves into a corner. Since they've made the games about nothing other than combat, loots, and classes, they've produced games that are vulnerable to being unfriendly toward one or the other. I think the best accomodation a game can make to solitary gamers is a robust tradeskill or crafting segment. The fact that the games these days don't offer anything other than PvP and PvE combat makes the solo/group issue become that much more sailent. That being said, the best accomodation a game can make to group oriented players is to get rid of "/join." That is to say, make it so you don't have to mechanically "group up" just to game with each other. Really now, "grouping" as it is done today is just a contrived, immersion breaking gimmick designed to put "gameyness" over "immersiveness." Just like we don't have to yell "/group" to do things with other people, so too should we be able to do things with as many or as few people we see fit without having some arbitrary "group" distinction as part of our experience. The reason this solo versus group thing is such an issue is because the games these days are all about combat, and since there isn't anything else to do but combat, the designers are nothing more than tightrope walkers trying to balance the combat metrics and loot tables. The developers want us to play combat games, not virtual simulations. But if we abandon the concept of lootables and go toward crafting, all of the sudden the solo/group controversy starts to become meaningless, because killing things isn't the way gear is acquired. And if we abandon the idea of having to "/join" a group in order to do things together, we no longer need to worry about "groups" or "solo players," because we'll all just play as solo players who come together.
Well, there are a lot of good points there but I have to say that I like combat.
Whether it's a decent pvp system or even a challenging pve system, I am there for the combat. I want to play a hero of sorts, not be a tradesmen or crafter.
I avoid crafting in all mmo's. Can't stand it.
So though I think having other things to do for other types of players is great and should be there, I have to say that I ONLY want combat. Or puzzle solving... that can be fun.
I don't think I'm alone with this among people who do a lot of soloing.
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Originally posted by Sovrath Well, there are a lot of good points there but I have to say that I like combat. Whether it's a decent pvp system or even a challenging pve system, I am there for the combat. I want to play a hero of sorts, not be a tradesmen or crafter. I avoid crafting in all mmo's. Can't stand it. So though I think having other things to do for other types of players is great and should be there, I have to say that I ONLY want combat. Or puzzle solving... that can be fun. I don't think I'm alone with this among people who do a lot of soloing.
That's cool. In fact, even if solo players don't craft and do combat only, I'd think that they'd come out better in a game where the gear is made by other players.
Because when gear is made by other players, combat ceases to be about loot, and becomes about gold. gold-based rewards for combat are a lot more solo and group friendly than loot-based rewards. Because in a loot-based system, the best gear requires a raid group, disadvantaging the soloer. Likewise, in a loot-based system, someone (or perhaps many) in the group are going to come away empty handed, or without the loot they want or need. Gold, however, can be traded for the equipment a soloer needs, and divided up between group members so that each can buy what they need.
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"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
The way I see it if people want to spend a monthly fee to play with themselves then go for it.
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I have to agree with the OP to a point. I also think a lot of posters here aren't really looking at the big picture, just at how this criticism affects their own playstyles.
IMO, the ease of soloing in a MMO is inversely proportionate to the quality of its community. When you give people the ease of ability to go through content that rewards them similarly to what group content does, then it makes it easy for people to be completely inconsiderate (seeing as how they already have internet anonymity) toward the common player. What you wind up breeding is a playerbase of asshats with the I want it now mentality, and they don't care who it affects- they don't need to because grouping isn't a necessity.
I agree there should be some solo content, in the case that you happen to be on offpeak hours and it just isn't possible to get a group of necessary classes/levels, but I also think that it should be limited to the exploring type things as in CoH, PQs as in Warhammer (although fewer), solo questing (but at a much, much worse reward for time invested than any grouping), or tradeskills. It'd also be nice if instead of opening servers for EU, Oceania, and US they opened them advertising a peak hour range so that people could join a server based on their playtime instead of the area they are in (I understand the current way somewhat deals with this in timezones but not nearly enough).
Basically, unless you want a community of brats, as a dev you'd better reward for grouping and punish for soloing.
What it comes down to is that there is a group of people who like to "group" and that they are having problems finding games that support this. Well, I'm sorry about that. My first bit of advice is that you just find other groupers. One would think that with all the threads that there would be more than enough to accomodate your playstyle. Of course then you have the argument that games aren't supporting groups. Not sure if that's true, or at least from the games I've seen. I always see people looking for groups.
And funny enough, there are always these disparate people looking for groups but none of them put 2 and 2 together to realize that "they" make up a group.
then again, perhaps they are part of those people who are looking for the perfect group.
You've completely missed the point. People don't want to group just to group. They want a good grouping game.
It's pointless to group in WoW in the 1-70 game. Sure, you CAN group, but that's not what people are asking for. They're not asking to be ABLE to group, they're asking for a game that has a REASON to group, which is what makes grouping fun.
If there's no reason to do it, it's no fun. Nobody looking for a good grouping game is going to be happy just because they can form a group in a solo game.
Designing mmo around end game like raids, forced group content, gear farming, is ruining the genre. How about making character development the point over what kind of phat loot you can farm.
Originally posted by Ihmotepp You've completely missed the point. People don't want to group just to group. They want a good grouping game. It's pointless to group in WoW in the 1-70 game. Sure, you CAN group, but that's not what people are asking for. They're not asking to be ABLE to group, they're asking for a game that has a REASON to group, which is what makes grouping fun. If there's no reason to do it, it's no fun. Nobody looking for a good grouping game is going to be happy just because they can form a group in a solo game.
I'm forced to question whether you've actually played WoW.
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You've completely missed the point. People don't want to group just to group. They want a good grouping game. It's pointless to group in WoW in the 1-70 game. Sure, you CAN group, but that's not what people are asking for. They're not asking to be ABLE to group, they're asking for a game that has a REASON to group, which is what makes grouping fun. If there's no reason to do it, it's no fun. Nobody looking for a good grouping game is going to be happy just because they can form a group in a solo game.
I highly doubt you have played wow. As a min, there are plenty of group quest, dungeon quest from 1-70. I run friends through RFC, WC, SM countless number of times. You can't really solo in those places.
The ONLY part of WOW that is solo friendly is leveling. Many (but not all) good items are available only for group play.
The ONLY part of WOW that is solo friendly is leveling. Many (but not all) good items are available only for group play.
That is not the point I saw. I'll agree and say that grouping is pointless in WoW until 70. While yes, you do miss out on gear from dungeons and some quests in the dungeons you don't need them at all. You can solo straight to 70 via quests or straight grinding and suffer no ill effects (aside from not knowing how to group, thus gimping yourself for the endgame imo).
It is completely viable to live on AH greens all the way to 70 AND have plenty of gold just from gathering. Unless you are twinking a BG bracket, whether your gear is green, blue, or purple doesn't matter until you hit the level cap.
I think that a big part of why most people get tired of "GROUPING" in most MMO's is when they have to wait for a "HEALER .. or TANK" in order to do the dungeons or group part of MMO's in the first place. It can get very frustrating when you have a group ready to go but cant get that healer or tank u need ..
One thing that hasnt been touched upon that I really liked about EQ and the grouping therein had nothing to do with grouping. It had everything to do with being on your best behavior and playing properly back when there was such a thing as player ettiquette.
You were forced to go out and MAKE FRIENDS, you joined a guild to survive the harsh enviroments, and if you were a jerk, or an idiot, you found yourself treading water in the middle of an ocean with no one who cared to help you. The communities were smaller, and if you made a bad name for yourself, that was it, end of story, you got what you deserved. You didnt just reroll a character just like that, it was too time consuming, so you just learned to play your role right, and learn to treat other people appropriately so you didnt sink as opposed to swim.
Nowadays however everythings easy peasy, toons max level in a month, and no one gives a rats ass about anyone else. Theres no consequence to being an asshat, oh well, you can just go solo. Its sad that players are no longer being held responsible for their good behavior, or lack thereof. Frankly most players today wouldnt have liked EQ, accountability and personal responsibility are a foreign concept to a lot of newer players.
As if thats not enough, everything now is centered around instant gratification, people lose their mind if they have to have a group to finish a quest for their uber sword of doom. Most dont even know how hard it was to get your epic weapon in EQ, it required a RAID force of people. Those raid force people didnt show up because they were getting something out of it, they showed up because they were your guildies and they gave a shit about you because you gave a shit about them. What ever happened to that sense of comraderie, what ever happened to the spirit of the MMO?
Back in the Everquest golden age, I enjoyed grouping. People were so friendly, helpful and nice it was awesome. There was a strong sense of community. Now with so many immature, selfish pricks in MMOs, its no wonder so many people want to get groups over and done with. Trying to put back group emphasis in MMOs won't work. The general MMO community today is just too immature and inconsiderate.
Back in the Everquest golden age, I enjoyed grouping. People were so friendly, helpful and nice it was awesome. There was a strong sense of community. Now with so many immature, selfish pricks in MMOs, its no wonder so many people want to get groups over and done with. Trying to put back group emphasis in MMOs won't work. The general MMO community today is just too immature and inconsiderate.
Im sure this ties in with people being raised on the internet. Old school EQ and UO players grew up in a time before you could spend your whole life inside the internet. To this day the level of immaturity and blatant disrespect shown by the WoW generation boggles my mind. This behavior wasnt acceptable when I was a kid. I often wonder where the parenting in all of this is, and it makes me want to keep my own kids away from the internet as much as possible before theyre tainted too.
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That's what people call "forced grouping". If they can't make just as much progress solo as a group, then they call it forced grouping.
You just said, we dont' need forced grouping in a game because it causes resentment, but games should have forced grouping.
That's what people call "forced grouping". If they can't make just as much progress solo as a group, then they call it forced grouping.
You just said, we dont' need forced grouping in a game because it causes resentment, but games should have forced grouping.
What people aren't realizing is that making a game where grouping is the norm will not do what these players think it will.
There weren't that many people who played the early games. Not as compared to today. Part of that could of course be the geeky stigma of the whole thing and part of it could be that it just took too much time. So only those people who were into this type of entertainment played them.
Now, create a game where you don't need to spend innordinate amount of time if you don't want to and make it user friendly and you suddently get more people willing to try and play it.
So sure, make a more group oriented game like the games of yore and you will get a very predictable scenario. Only those who want this type of game will play it.
Now, that's fine of course. The problem is, game developement being what it is, you will only find smaller studios making these games. It might not have all the bells and whistles, maybe not have top notch graphics.
Again, not a huge issue for some but it's so risky to do this that there are just fewer new devs even trying. And it's understandable.
Easy enough for you all with your regular jobs to say "I want better games" and then people go into the field, their game fails and they are out of a job. Most people work jobs because they need the money and they might even have to help support families.
On top of that there is saving for retirement. So we aren't going to see as many games come out of these indy studios.
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Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
This lashing out at solo players for the PoS mmo we currently have is such complete and utter bullshit. UO the best mmo to date imho could be soloed from beging to end if you were a smart/skilled enough player. You had to think about where and when you should hunt, have a escape plan or never carry more you were willing to loose because death was common, but you were never forced to do anything. But then power was in the character and his build over how much time he spent in forced groups gear farming.
What is truely screwing up the genre is mmo have become all about racing to end game with forced groups and raids instead of the journey of your character from beginning to end.
People should never be forced to group. Grouping should have benefits but soloing should always be an option. Abrahmm if we go by your logic that all people should group because it is the nature of an mmo then all should rp because they are mmorpg.
What swamprob said.
Sorry, CoH doesn't satisfy my need for a good grouping game. Yes I played it, yes it was fun, yes you can find groups, and YES the solo friendly aspect ruins the potential for it to be a great grouping game.
No, I don't think ALL MMORPGs should be for grouping, but neitehr should ALL MMORPGs be for solo play.
I would put CoH firmly in the solo friendly category. If you like to solo, sure you think the game is great, and you think it does a great job for being a group game, but it's completely mediocre in terms of being a good grouping game, IMO.
The scaling feature that you are applauding is the reason it sucks as a good grouping game.
To use your analogy, sure, you can make an MMORPG like anything you want. It doesn't even have to have a game, it can be like Second Life.
Sure, you can make it a 1vs1 solo friendly game, like basketball. But if you are playing 1v1 on the basket ball court while I want to play an actual team game of basketball, you're going to screw up my basketball game.
No, not every MMORPG has to be like football, but that's the game I want to play, and no you can't play both games on teh same field at the same time. It won't work.
I disagree, the scaling is what makes COH the best at allowing both solo and grouping in a game. Add in sidekicking and you got a real winner going on here. Are you being a bit inflexible?
What swamprob said.
Sorry, CoH doesn't satisfy my need for a good grouping game. Yes I played it, yes it was fun, yes you can find groups, and YES the solo friendly aspect ruins the potential for it to be a great grouping game.
No, I don't think ALL MMORPGs should be for grouping, but neitehr should ALL MMORPGs be for solo play.
I would put CoH firmly in the solo friendly category. If you like to solo, sure you think the game is great, and you think it does a great job for being a group game, but it's completely mediocre in terms of being a good grouping game, IMO.
The scaling feature that you are applauding is the reason it sucks as a good grouping game.
To use your analogy, sure, you can make an MMORPG like anything you want. It doesn't even have to have a game, it can be like Second Life.
Sure, you can make it a 1vs1 solo friendly game, like basketball. But if you are playing 1v1 on the basket ball court while I want to play an actual team game of basketball, you're going to screw up my basketball game.
No, not every MMORPG has to be like football, but that's the game I want to play, and no you can't play both games on teh same field at the same time. It won't work.
I disagree, the scaling is what makes COH the best at allowing both solo and grouping in a game. Add in sidekicking and you got a real winner going on here. Are you being a bit inflexible?
I honestly don't know what being flexible has to do with what I find fun and challenging.
The fact that the "missions" in CoH scale takes away from the challenge, and therefore the fun and grouping aspect of the game.
If you like instanced dungeons that scale to your party, that's fine. I don't have any problem with what you find enjoyable in a game.
It takes away from the immersion for me, if the encounter scales in difficulty. I want it to be a set obstacle, that I can overcome, not somethign that adjusts so that I can win.
I disagree with the OP; MMOs aren't ruined they are just different then they once were. I think most MMOs have a good balance, you can solo quests, but there are certain areas and quests that you have to do as a group. Now I don't whine when I can't get uber-loot because I can't find a group, or I won't raid, I just accept that. I agree that there are some really unreasonable people who seem to think that they should be able to do absolutely everything in a game by themselves. One of the strengths of MMOs is that you can group with other people to overcome obstacles that are impossible by yourself, so there has to be tough dungeons and raids. On the other hand I do get tired of all high end content being raid related.
I have to agree with the OP to a point. I also think a lot of posters here aren't really looking at the big picture, just at how this criticism affects their own playstyles.
IMO, the ease of soloing in a MMO is inversely proportionate to the quality of its community. When you give people the ease of ability to go through content that rewards them similarly to what group content does, then it makes it easy for people to be completely inconsiderate (seeing as how they already have internet anonymity) toward the common player. What you wind up breeding is a playerbase of asshats with the I want it now mentality, and they don't care who it affects- they don't need to because grouping isn't a necessity.
I agree there should be some solo content, in the case that you happen to be on offpeak hours and it just isn't possible to get a group of necessary classes/levels, but I also think that it should be limited to the exploring type things as in CoH, PQs as in Warhammer (although fewer), solo questing (but at a much, much worse reward for time invested than any grouping), or tradeskills. It'd also be nice if instead of opening servers for EU, Oceania, and US they opened them advertising a peak hour range so that people could join a server based on their playtime instead of the area they are in (I understand the current way somewhat deals with this in timezones but not nearly enough).
Basically, unless you want a community of brats, as a dev you'd better reward for grouping and punish for soloing.
Ok, but you are doing the same thing. You are making value judgements based upon what you perceive is the outcome of solo content. Personally, I think you miss the mark. I've known MANY "soloers". These are men and women who have odd hours, don't mind grouping but would also like to take the content at their own speed.
And none of them are asshats. I would also like to point out that I have grouped with MANY asshats.
People who solo don't necessarily hate grouping. But they do have a need to experience the content in a way that makes sense to their lives.
It could be that they have odd schedules or want to take their time or even quickly push through the content.
In DDO I have done quite a lot of soloing because otherwise it ends up being a speed race to get through the instance. I remember on several ocassions being asked to help out and pretty much just following everyone's lead as it was a marathon speed session to get through it all. I still have no idea as to why I was doing the particular quest or the story behind it.
Another thing is that once in a group you have to suffer through the whims of the group. This could be anything from bad players, players who take too many breaks or who have very particular ways they want to do the current mission.
Or the incessant whining and complaining or just topics of conversation that one doesn't want to hear.
I also believe that many of the solers (myself included) mostly group in guilds because at least you can be with like minded people.
The thing is that this is never going to be agreed upon. This is the umpteenth millionth thread about the same topic.
What it comes down to is that there is a group of people who like to "group" and that they are having problems finding games that support this. Well, I'm sorry about that. My first bit of advice is that you just find other groupers. One would think that with all the threads that there would be more than enough to accomodate your playstyle. Of course then you have the argument that games aren't supporting groups. Not sure if that's true, or at least from the games I've seen. I always see people looking for groups.
And funny enough, there are always these disparate people looking for groups but none of them put 2 and 2 together to realize that "they" make up a group.
then again, perhaps they are part of those people who are looking for the perfect group.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
The only reason we have the solo versus group problem is because the designers painted themselves into a corner. Since they've made the games about nothing other than combat, loots, and classes, they've produced games that are vulnerable to being unfriendly toward one or the other.
I think the best accomodation a game can make to solitary gamers is a robust tradeskill or crafting segment. The fact that the games these days don't offer anything other than PvP and PvE combat makes the solo/group issue become that much more sailent.
That being said, the best accomodation a game can make to group oriented players is to get rid of "/join." That is to say, make it so you don't have to mechanically "group up" just to game with each other.
Really now, "grouping" as it is done today is just a contrived, immersion breaking gimmick designed to put "gameyness" over "immersiveness." Just like we don't have to yell "/group" to do things with other people, so too should we be able to do things with as many or as few people we see fit without having some arbitrary "group" distinction as part of our experience.
The reason this solo versus group thing is such an issue is because the games these days are all about combat, and since there isn't anything else to do but combat, the designers are nothing more than tightrope walkers trying to balance the combat metrics and loot tables. The developers want us to play combat games, not virtual simulations.
But if we abandon the concept of lootables and go toward crafting, all of the sudden the solo/group controversy starts to become meaningless, because killing things isn't the way gear is acquired.
And if we abandon the idea of having to "/join" a group in order to do things together, we no longer need to worry about "groups" or "solo players," because we'll all just play as solo players who come together.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Well, there are a lot of good points there but I have to say that I like combat.
Whether it's a decent pvp system or even a challenging pve system, I am there for the combat. I want to play a hero of sorts, not be a tradesmen or crafter.
I avoid crafting in all mmo's. Can't stand it.
So though I think having other things to do for other types of players is great and should be there, I have to say that I ONLY want combat. Or puzzle solving... that can be fun.
I don't think I'm alone with this among people who do a lot of soloing.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
That's cool. In fact, even if solo players don't craft and do combat only, I'd think that they'd come out better in a game where the gear is made by other players.
Because when gear is made by other players, combat ceases to be about loot, and becomes about gold. gold-based rewards for combat are a lot more solo and group friendly than loot-based rewards. Because in a loot-based system, the best gear requires a raid group, disadvantaging the soloer. Likewise, in a loot-based system, someone (or perhaps many) in the group are going to come away empty handed, or without the loot they want or need. Gold, however, can be traded for the equipment a soloer needs, and divided up between group members so that each can buy what they need.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
The way I see it if people want to spend a monthly fee to play with themselves then go for it.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
lol, har, har.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
WTB US Monster Hunter MMO....
Currently restarting World of Warcraft
What it comes down to is that there is a group of people who like to "group" and that they are having problems finding games that support this. Well, I'm sorry about that. My first bit of advice is that you just find other groupers. One would think that with all the threads that there would be more than enough to accomodate your playstyle. Of course then you have the argument that games aren't supporting groups. Not sure if that's true, or at least from the games I've seen. I always see people looking for groups.
And funny enough, there are always these disparate people looking for groups but none of them put 2 and 2 together to realize that "they" make up a group.
then again, perhaps they are part of those people who are looking for the perfect group.
You've completely missed the point. People don't want to group just to group. They want a good grouping game.
It's pointless to group in WoW in the 1-70 game. Sure, you CAN group, but that's not what people are asking for. They're not asking to be ABLE to group, they're asking for a game that has a REASON to group, which is what makes grouping fun.
If there's no reason to do it, it's no fun. Nobody looking for a good grouping game is going to be happy just because they can form a group in a solo game.
Designing mmo around end game like raids, forced group content, gear farming, is ruining the genre. How about making character development the point over what kind of phat loot you can farm.
I'm forced to question whether you've actually played WoW.
In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.
-Thomas Jefferson
I highly doubt you have played wow. As a min, there are plenty of group quest, dungeon quest from 1-70. I run friends through RFC, WC, SM countless number of times. You can't really solo in those places.
The ONLY part of WOW that is solo friendly is leveling. Many (but not all) good items are available only for group play.
That is not the point I saw. I'll agree and say that grouping is pointless in WoW until 70. While yes, you do miss out on gear from dungeons and some quests in the dungeons you don't need them at all. You can solo straight to 70 via quests or straight grinding and suffer no ill effects (aside from not knowing how to group, thus gimping yourself for the endgame imo).
It is completely viable to live on AH greens all the way to 70 AND have plenty of gold just from gathering. Unless you are twinking a BG bracket, whether your gear is green, blue, or purple doesn't matter until you hit the level cap.
I think that a big part of why most people get tired of "GROUPING" in most MMO's is when they have to wait for a "HEALER .. or TANK" in order to do the dungeons or group part of MMO's in the first place. It can get very frustrating when you have a group ready to go but cant get that healer or tank u need ..
One thing that hasnt been touched upon that I really liked about EQ and the grouping therein had nothing to do with grouping. It had everything to do with being on your best behavior and playing properly back when there was such a thing as player ettiquette.
You were forced to go out and MAKE FRIENDS, you joined a guild to survive the harsh enviroments, and if you were a jerk, or an idiot, you found yourself treading water in the middle of an ocean with no one who cared to help you. The communities were smaller, and if you made a bad name for yourself, that was it, end of story, you got what you deserved. You didnt just reroll a character just like that, it was too time consuming, so you just learned to play your role right, and learn to treat other people appropriately so you didnt sink as opposed to swim.
Nowadays however everythings easy peasy, toons max level in a month, and no one gives a rats ass about anyone else. Theres no consequence to being an asshat, oh well, you can just go solo. Its sad that players are no longer being held responsible for their good behavior, or lack thereof. Frankly most players today wouldnt have liked EQ, accountability and personal responsibility are a foreign concept to a lot of newer players.
As if thats not enough, everything now is centered around instant gratification, people lose their mind if they have to have a group to finish a quest for their uber sword of doom. Most dont even know how hard it was to get your epic weapon in EQ, it required a RAID force of people. Those raid force people didnt show up because they were getting something out of it, they showed up because they were your guildies and they gave a shit about you because you gave a shit about them. What ever happened to that sense of comraderie, what ever happened to the spirit of the MMO?
perhaps if there solo-only and group-only abilities players would be incented to do both activities.
Back in the Everquest golden age, I enjoyed grouping. People were so friendly, helpful and nice it was awesome. There was a strong sense of community. Now with so many immature, selfish pricks in MMOs, its no wonder so many people want to get groups over and done with. Trying to put back group emphasis in MMOs won't work. The general MMO community today is just too immature and inconsiderate.
Im sure this ties in with people being raised on the internet. Old school EQ and UO players grew up in a time before you could spend your whole life inside the internet. To this day the level of immaturity and blatant disrespect shown by the WoW generation boggles my mind. This behavior wasnt acceptable when I was a kid. I often wonder where the parenting in all of this is, and it makes me want to keep my own kids away from the internet as much as possible before theyre tainted too.