Just because something is not what you like, does not mean it's horrible.
It seems your massive post distills into wanting a few key things:
1) Unique Characters
2) World Interaction and Impact
3) "Meaningful Death"
4) More permanent PvP
Overall) A harder (hardcore?) game
Now, lets look at those a little closer at all of that, since these "AAA MMO's" seem to have so little of it!
1) Unique Characters:
Having this is pretty much the staple of new MMO's. And it changes everything significantly. Without character classes, the players get a lot of freedom, but the party system is changed almost completely. Now, if parties are to be formed, there is a lot more work to find out who has what, and who can do what. It takes more time than just "Looking for <Archetype>". Sure, some players like it that way, and it encourages communication, but for a lot of people, it's a headache to deal with all that.
But you could argue that they'd have their own specialties, where people make healers and fighters and tanks on their own. Well, that takes us back to square one, doesn't it?
There's also the "Jack of all trades, master of none" problem. People would always look for the best for the job. Who would want a guy with 2 heals and 2 attacks, when they could go for a guy with 4 heals?
Perhaps you want to not be confined to a job? Newer MMO's are doing that. WAR healers are hardly the "sit back and heal" types. Look at warrior priests, for example. They can put out damage, and heal. Look at AoC classes, where the lines between archetypes are blurred.
2) World Interaction and Impact
This is pretty hard to pull off. Ideally, you could have it so once something happens, it happens. If the enemy takes a city, it's gone. If a dragon is killed, he's gone. But, this would just cater to the "world first" people. And, it would cost more, I'd say. You're getting developers to make that much more content, since everything is changing. They design a city and it gets destroyed, now they have to make a ruined city and maybe a new city elsewhere to replace it. The dragon is dead, now the dungeon is closed, so they have to make more dungeons so players don't run out of content.
Yes, that is the extreme, where once it happens it happens, and yes, there is always middle ground. But I'm just making the point that its probably more expensive (or at least, resource consuming) to have it.
Plus, you'd have players don't like the stability of the world, who don't know what to look forward to. That sweet dungeon 5 levels away? It could be gone at any moment. That massive Kraken they want to kill? It could be dead in an hour.
You'd get a large numbers of players who, ironically, feel disconnected from the world because everyone can change the world. If they're not at the forefront of the world, they're helpless and useless.
3) Meaningful Death
This is a short one. I really do understand the appeal of a death penalty. People love asking for severe death penalties.
But think of what that causes-- Reluctance. Reluctance to try that dungeon with a group that might go either way. Reluctance to fight that player coming down the road. Reluctance to go into enemy territory. Reluctance to otherwise lose their time and effort put into the character.
This works on some MMO's, and not in others. Do you think Warhammer would have so many people out PvPing (it's changed a lot since launch) if losing meant they lost an hour of their work? Would people in WoW try endgame dungeons if losing meant they'd lose their gear and level?
4) More permanent PvP
Yes, death penalties add fear and intensity into the mix, but it also reduces freedom. How many people would show up to the city if losing meant they'd lose their character? (I am sorry for hating the fact that in order to really "beat" or "kill" someone you either have to make them leave the area in frustration or log out.)
How many people would even engage in PvP if losing meant they lost a chunk of their XP and gear? Keep in mind, in PvP death is as regular as auto attack, moreso with real-time combat games.
Yes, there would be fear and excitement from "oh man, this is so risky", but not everyone would put up with it.
Overall) A harder (hardcore?) game
People are going to bet putting in a lot of time into their characters. MMO's are all about putting time into characters and having something to show for it. Putting all this time into it, people want to enjoy their time. Most people don't want to log in to their MMO only to have a bad day on it and lose days of work. They don't want teeth-grinding battles and fear-inducing skirmishes after having a long day at work. They don't want to be locked out of content just because some guild on a different time zone got to the content first.
Think of the average person. Someone who, unlike most of us here, they did not grow up with games as their hobby. They have a lot more on their mind than games, unlike someone who's hobby IS games. They want to log in for a while, have fun and log out. For someone who doesn't play as many video games, their idea of fun may not be losing 5 hours of progress because they got caught in a bad situation.
All this talk of hardcore unforgiving MMOs in a completely %100 open world, that's not for everyone. It only appeals to certain kinds of gamers, people who don't mind losing that weapon they got from a long dungeon, or bought for 100 gold from another player.
There's a reason these "AAA MMO's" don't have your checklist. It's because they're accessible. And, yes, too much can ruin a game. But, I hardly believe WoW and WAR as are "easy button mode" as you claim they are. Yes, it's not as hardcore as you'd like. But they don't just hand out rewards.
It's not that easy to do a WoW raid. It's not that easy to take a defended Keep in WAR. It takes time, effort and coordination for those.
Just because they have the most numbers, does not mean you have to play them. Go find your perfect MMO. It may not have 11 million subscribers. It may not have constant media attention. It may not even have a full battallion of devs. But what it does have is a playerbase, which ought to be good enough for you. Unless of course, you're just looking for attention.
No one is forcing you to play the big MMO's. There are TONS of MMO's out there, and many more on the way. If you're not playing them because the'yre not as big or bad, well, you're not as "hardcore" as you claim to be.
Just because something is not what you like, does not mean it's horrible. It seems your massive post distills into wanting a few key things: 1) Unique Characters 2) World Interaction and Impact 3) "Meaningful Death" 4) More permanent PvP He wasn't asking for permanent death. Overall) A harder (hardcore?) game
Now, lets look at those a little closer at all of that, since these "AAA MMO's" seem to have so little of it!
1) Unique Characters: Having this is pretty much the staple of new MMO's. Not in the least And it changes everything significantly. Without character classes, the players get a lot of freedom, but the party system is changed almost completely. Now, if parties are to be formed, there is a lot more work to find out who has what, and who can do what. It takes more time than just "Looking for <Archetype>". Sure, some players like it that way, and it encourages communication, but for a lot of people, it's a headache to deal with all that. So your argument is that freedom from classes makes it harder to form groups? How much harder is it to say "I'm mostly a healer with X skills" or "I can tank or DPS with X build"? But you could argue that they'd have their own specialties, where people make healers and fighters and tanks on their own. Well, that takes us back to square one, doesn't it? No, people would be making their OWN character, not the character the developers decided they could have. Sure people will make characters that may fall into certain roles, but this gives them the opportunity to have their own version of it verses the exact same version as everyone else. There's also the "Jack of all trades, master of none" problem. People would always look for the best for the job. Who would want a guy with 2 heals and 2 attacks, when they could go for a guy with 4 heals? Who decides that a guy with 4 heals is better than a guy with 2 heals and 2 attacks? Why does the guy with 4 heals automatically mean he's better? Perhaps you want to not be confined to a job? Newer MMO's are doing that. WAR healers are hardly the "sit back and heal" types. Look at warrior priests, for example. They can put out damage, and heal. Look at AoC classes, where the lines between archetypes are blurred. Job confinement isn't the problem. The problem is you are the exact character the developers have said you can be, and so is everyone else that is your class. It stupidly simplistic and has no room for creativity.
2) World Interaction and Impact This is pretty hard to pull off. Ideally, you could have it so once something happens, it happens. If the enemy takes a city, it's gone. If a dragon is killed, he's gone. But, this would just cater to the "world first" people. And, it would cost more, I'd say. You're getting developers to make that much more content, since everything is changing. They design a city and it gets destroyed, now they have to make a ruined city and maybe a new city elsewhere to replace it. The dragon is dead, now the dungeon is closed, so they have to make more dungeons so players don't run out of content. You are taking it too far. Simply giving the players the ability to build houses and cities would make a LOT of people happy and fill their world interaction needs/ Yes, that is the extreme, where once it happens it happens, and yes, there is always middle ground. But I'm just making the point that its probably more expensive (or at least, resource consuming) to have it. No developer in their right mind would implement something that required manual interaction every time the event happened, so the argument is moot. Plus, you'd have players don't like the stability of the world, who don't know what to look forward to. That sweet dungeon 5 levels away? It could be gone at any moment. That massive Kraken they want to kill? It could be dead in an hour. Deleting dungeons after one group clears it is a ridiculous over-exaggeration. You'd get a large numbers of players who, ironically, feel disconnected from the world because everyone can change the world. If they're not at the forefront of the world, they're helpless and useless. 3) Meaningful Death This is a short one. I really do understand the appeal of a death penalty. People love asking for severe death penalties. But think of what that causes-- Reluctance. Reluctance to try that dungeon with a group that might go either way. Reluctance to fight that player coming down the road. Reluctance to go into enemy territory. Reluctance to otherwise lose their time and effort put into the character. Or it encourages people to pay attention, play better, and want to be better at what they do. This works on some MMO's, and not in others. Do you think Warhammer would have so many people out PvPing (it's changed a lot since launch) if losing meant they lost an hour of their work? Would people in WoW try endgame dungeons if losing meant they'd lose their gear and level? Yes, people would still be PvPing. But they would be PvPing smarter. They will assess situations and use the tactics necessary. They won't blindly charge to their death in battle. If the situation is unfavorable, they can look for an opportunity to retreat. It enforces the wise use of tactics and smart group gameplay, not "Zerg, die, repeat".
4) More permanent PvP Yes, death penalties add fear and intensity into the mix, but it also reduces freedom. How many people would show up to the city if losing meant they'd lose their character? (I am sorry for hating the fact that in order to really "beat" or "kill" someone you either have to make them leave the area in frustration or log out.) How many people would even engage in PvP if losing meant they lost a chunk of their XP and gear? Keep in mind, in PvP death is as regular as auto attack, moreso with real-time combat games. Yes, there would be fear and excitement from "oh man, this is so risky", but not everyone would put up with it. No one is asking for permadeath, so this is irrelevant.
Overall) A harder (hardcore?) game People are going to bet putting in a lot of time into their characters. MMO's are all about putting time into characters and having something to show for it. Putting all this time into it, people want to enjoy their time. Most people don't want to log in to their MMO only to have a bad day on it and lose days of work. They don't want teeth-grinding battles and fear-inducing skirmishes after having a long day at work. They don't want to be locked out of content just because some guild on a different time zone got to the content first. How do you know what people want? Clearly we are people, and we are here asking for these things. Think of the average person. Someone who, unlike most of us here, they did not grow up with games as their hobby. They have a lot more on their mind than games, unlike someone who's hobby IS games. They want to log in for a while, have fun and log out. For someone who doesn't play as many video games, their idea of fun may not be losing 5 hours of progress because they got caught in a bad situation. Aren't their enough games out already catering to the "average person"? Why is it so bad that we ask for a few games that cater to us? All this talk of hardcore unforgiving MMOs in a completely %100 open world, that's not for everyone. It only appeals to certain kinds of gamers, people who don't mind losing that weapon they got from a long dungeon, or bought for 100 gold from another player. Yet their is no games available for us, yet endlessly amount of crap available to the average people.
There's a reason these "AAA MMO's" don't have your checklist. It's because they're accessible. And, yes, too much can ruin a game. But, I hardly believe WoW and WAR as are "easy button mode" as you claim they are. Yes, it's not as hardcore as you'd like. But they don't just hand out rewards. It's pretty close. Sit in BG's long enough and you will get gear in WoW. It's not that easy to do a WoW raid. It's not that easy to take a defended Keep in WAR. It takes time, effort and coordination for those.
Just because they have the most numbers, does not mean you have to play them. Go find your perfect MMO. It may not have 11 million subscribers. It may not have constant media attention. It may not even have a full battallion of devs. But what it does have is a playerbase, which ought to be good enough for you. Unless of course, you're just looking for attention. Show me all these choices we have of games that have what we are looking for? There aren't many. No one is forcing you to play the big MMO's. There are TONS of MMO's out there, and many more on the way. If you're not playing them because the'yre not as big or bad, well, you're not as "hardcore" as you claim to be. There are very few that have what we are looking for, and the VAST majority of the games are made for the average player.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike Loved: Star Wars Galaxies Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
Uhhh, I don't know about you guy's but all i want is an mmo that's fun.. LOL
Didn't you get the memo, they aren't about fun. They are about punishing you for trying to have fun.
Oh Bladin, what would you do if you didn't respawn at full health 15 seconds after you died in an MMO?
Aren't their enough risk free, heavily rewarded, linear hold your hand games that you crave so much for you to play, instead of coming here and bashing the people that want something different?
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike Loved: Star Wars Galaxies Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
how does crying over these forums really affect it? Really his entire post is basically saying "i want a sandbox, so i will use syarcasm to insult non sandbox while promoting my favorite type" I'm actually pro sandbox, just the QQ on these forums really kills me.
so if someone is pissed off or at least aggrivated by the direction of MMORPGs... he shouldn't post his frustrations on a website called MMORPG.com
oh i know your wonderful advice is to what? wait and hope the developers pull thier heads from thier asses? or maybe the classic "hey if you don't like it go design a MMO" ... because im sure everyone just has 10-20 million a team of developers and the overall knowhow just laying around.
Yeah, but you act like this post says anything new or unique or fresh, it's just the same post recycled over and over.
welcome to the internet ... first time here?
Nope, that's why i'm saying quit the QQ
You are not getting the point, you can completely ignore this thread if you like. Yet you are here, complaining about it.
It's called a Forum, this is the idea of a forum anyways. (Heres the definintion: "a public meeting or assembly for open discussion " from wordreference.com)
See, that is the point of posting here, to openly discuss, even to read your post, or post of other people who like to shut other people up.
My personal opinion is the by offering an opinion on an mmorpg site does have the potential to be seen by a developer. Just like playing a gig in a dump bar could be seen by label recruiter. The idea is that if no one says anything or not unified outcry for change happens.... they will continue to only look at the numbers and clone the game with the best potential to make money. What we need now is to show that a different type of game CAN survive.... because frankly games that are trying to be different just have not done well in the last years. (Auto Assault, Tabula Rasa) We need to show them that different ideas are good.... they just have to be well polished and thought out a little more.
Ok let's say for the sake of argument that I agree 100%. What's your plan? See the problem is, while a developer may read this thread, they are well aware that this is a fan site and is therefore skewed toward more hardcore players. As an example how may hard core PvPers are there here. I would say a lot more than in real games, or at least real games that survive and do well. A lot of the opinions posted in these forums would certainly kill a game quickly or relegate it to second tier status. That's really NOT what a developer is looking for. That's not to say that there aren't good ideas here. I think the OP had some valid complaints. However it's not obvious how to separate the good ideas from the game killers. I think this thread would be more constructive if were to focus on solutions rather than simple complaints.
I would love to say that I disagree with you, however the unfortunate truth is that you are right. Developers will only ever see the numbers and those sub numbers mean $$$. So Modern MMO gaming is what we will see more of. An unfortunate truth... but a truth none the less.
how does crying over these forums really affect it? Really his entire post is basically saying "i want a sandbox, so i will use syarcasm to insult non sandbox while promoting my favorite type" I'm actually pro sandbox, just the QQ on these forums really kills me.
so if someone is pissed off or at least aggrivated by the direction of MMORPGs... he shouldn't post his frustrations on a website called MMORPG.com
oh i know your wonderful advice is to what? wait and hope the developers pull thier heads from thier asses? or maybe the classic "hey if you don't like it go design a MMO" ... because im sure everyone just has 10-20 million a team of developers and the overall knowhow just laying around.
Yeah, but you act like this post says anything new or unique or fresh, it's just the same post recycled over and over.
welcome to the internet ... first time here?
Nope, that's why i'm saying quit the QQ
You are not getting the point, you can completely ignore this thread if you like. Yet you are here, complaining about it.
It's called a Forum, this is the idea of a forum anyways. (Heres the definintion: "a public meeting or assembly for open discussion " from wordreference.com)
See, that is the point of posting here, to openly discuss, even to read your post, or post of other people who like to shut other people up.
The problem is that this EXACT SAME THREAD, comes up OVER AND OVER, from the SAME few people, with the SAME few supporters OVER AND OVER.
Then in EVERY SINGLE OTHER THREAD, someone with the same doctrite comes in and is like "you want to decide between aoc and lotro? fuck em both play eve its a real game!"
Where am i supposed to go? the game im currently playing? nope sandbox fans there are there for more arguements. Games im not playing? why would i be there. General? this thread is the same as the other 10 on front page.(exaggeration)
There seem to be an abundance of people who don't even grasp the basics of internet communities. How ridiculous do you have to be to get upset and complain about people talking about MMORPGs on a forum for MMORPGs.
There seem to be an abundance of people who don't even grasp the basics of internet communities. How ridiculous do you have to be to get upset and complain about people talking about MMORPGs on a forum for MMORPGs.
Completely agree with the OP and most of the other responses. If it weren't for a couple of recent new efforts (MO, ER, FE and DF) I pretty much would have stopped playing MMOs. While I don't necessarily like all 4 of those titles I mentioned I am glad they are being made. Hopefully a return to that style of MMO being made is happening.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
how does crying over these forums really affect it? Really his entire post is basically saying "i want a sandbox, so i will use syarcasm to insult non sandbox while promoting my favorite type" I'm actually pro sandbox, just the QQ on these forums really kills me.
so if someone is pissed off or at least aggrivated by the direction of MMORPGs... he shouldn't post his frustrations on a website called MMORPG.com
oh i know your wonderful advice is to what? wait and hope the developers pull thier heads from thier asses? or maybe the classic "hey if you don't like it go design a MMO" ... because im sure everyone just has 10-20 million a team of developers and the overall knowhow just laying around.
Yeah, but you act like this post says anything new or unique or fresh, it's just the same post recycled over and over.
welcome to the internet ... first time here?
Nope, that's why i'm saying quit the QQ
You are not getting the point, you can completely ignore this thread if you like. Yet you are here, complaining about it.
It's called a Forum, this is the idea of a forum anyways. (Heres the definintion: "a public meeting or assembly for open discussion " from wordreference.com)
See, that is the point of posting here, to openly discuss, even to read your post, or post of other people who like to shut other people up.
The problem is that this EXACT SAME THREAD, comes up OVER AND OVER, from the SAME few people, with the SAME few supporters OVER AND OVER.
Then in EVERY SINGLE OTHER THREAD, someone with the same doctrite comes in and is like "you want to decide between aoc and lotro? fuck em both play eve its a real game!"
Where am i supposed to go? the game im currently playing? nope sandbox fans there are there for more arguements. Games im not playing? why would i be there. General? this thread is the same as the other 10 on front page.(exaggeration)
Perhaps there is a reason why this threads like these pop up over and over again? Because there are a lot of us looking for a game made for us?
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike Loved: Star Wars Galaxies Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
When I first read this post I was sure, that there would be angry responses. But there shouldn't be. This forum is for praise and criticism. Its no bodys right to say this post doesn't belong here (though I guses I am ironically suggesting posts that suggest this don't belong here) . The point is there is a huge audience who are desperate for something new and who are genuinely disgusted by what has been coming out. I think the more of these threads the better until a niche is found for this audience. Any half-witted developer has staff surfing these forums and other forums, and the more support they see for the type of game we want, the more likely we will get it. Every game is a risk and an investment, and the 11.5 million WoW is sitting on seems to be pointing most games in that direction. We have seen line after line of WoW imitators, granted they have their unique qualities and strengths, but when it comes down to it they are more simmilar to WoW than this crowd's likeing.
However WoW cannot be beaten at its own game. Just as every writer must put their work into the market knowing it competes with Shakespeare, WAR and AoC etc. must submit themselves to judgement vs WoW, and in my opinion and 11.5 million peoples opinions they fall short. And so, you must beat WoW by changing the game. The modernest movements and countercultural movements becamse in a sense a niche with realtive success because they changed the genere. You can't compare Joyce to Shakespeare because they are doing different things.
This may not seem relevant but the same applies to the MMO market. Nobody can beat WoW and I say that without 100% confidence but it has become the model of excellence love it or hate it. By posting on this forum we give the dreaming MMO artist some incentive, and the publishers some confidence, and the investors some certainty. When people say its their game they do what they want, stop whining, this forum is for MMO lovers not haters etc. they are either unkowingly hurting the situation, or actively hoping to prevent a new budding MMO movement. Sandbox games are going to be big when they happen as most posters want it. Many people have said "ugh another sandbox request, ive read a million of these." Often the same features will be found, everybody is thinking the same thing. Its just a matter of time until this takes off. There may be a few bubbles in between, but it will happen.
Darkfall and Mortal online are just a few that have just been announced. Yes I'll try them. (Also EQ is making a new server ^_^ that might be cool).
I couldn't have said it better myself, but gamer generation Y ( Those born in the late 80's and early 90's) can't seem to get enough of cookie cutter MMO's. It seems most the MMO industry is trying to cater to this age group who suffer for the most part from attention deficit disorder. So they build semi linear MMO's for them. Then hold their hand around in it. I'm so sick of that MMO formula I'm currently back in Uo just to fill in the gap whilst I wait to try DF. I must admit I still love how you play a mage in UO. No other MMO compares.
work hard and become a game designer that can change the face of MMOs
or post useless drivel on an internetz forum that is not going to do anything important or substantial. The choice is yours!
Actually, that's not the choice.
In order to positively change the MMO industry, you need to become an executive at a major publisher. Being a designer is not enough. The suits call the shots. They set the boundaries on the designers, who then give direction to the developers.
The key is to become one of those executives, and not be compromised by insatiable greed in the process.
I wish you luck.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
work hard and become a game designer that can change the face of MMOs
or post useless drivel on an internetz forum that is not going to do anything important or substantial. The choice is yours!
It's not like you can become an MMO designer instantly, even if he started learing now it would still take serveral years of schooling, so at the moment the "useless drivel on an internetz forum" is all he has. And I agree with him.
MMO's are all about entering the massive grinder, where you work hard to get that nice item, grind some more, die, revive, get another item, level up rinse and repeat. And everything else stays the same.
THATS fun. THATS the modern MMO.
And if you dont like it? Well then MMO's arent for you.
Your prayers are answered, the massive grinder is changing. The new route to go seems to be the cash shop. Even THe Old Republic is talking about a cash shop.
No more working hard to get that nice item. You just buy it.
THAT is the modern MMO.
Just keeps gettin better n better....each MMO that comes out gives us a new reason to go console or stick to single player games.
This thread is awesome. I couldn't agree more. Since 1999 the MMO genre has dumbed itself down to the point of being pathetic.
The sad reality is that as long as most of the MMO players want dumbed down games, most of the games these companies develop are going to be dumbed down games.
It's lose/lose for those of us who enjoy actual virtual worlds and unique gaming.
WoW has 12 million subscribers. That proves how feeble the gaming community truly is.
A thousand, thousand apologies: I seem to fail as an MMO player. I started my MMO gaming back in '99 and 2000 with the sandbox world of Asheron's Call, and then moved on to DAOC; and so forth, up to Warhammer Online.
I am terribly sorry.
I am a terrible MMO player.
I cannot play Warhammer or better yet, any other "Triple A" MMO out there. I thought I was in the right. I thought a large, open and free world would draw players to you. But I realize now, those elements are absolute insanity. So here is my list of apologies to you, the developers, and to YOU, the big men in suits.
For being unable to have fun.
- I am sorry for hating the class system. I dont want be a class, I dont want to have almost the exact same skill set as the person next to me. I am sorry for wanting to be unique. I know now, we must all be clones of each other in order to have fun.
- I am sorry for being unable to see the deep meaning in running 20 of the same games; same world; same objective; where players run in, kill each other, revive, and repeat until one "gets enough points".
- I am sorry for wanting to have my character make a real impact on the player world.
- I am sorry for cursing you out when releasing a new expansion making all the "epic" items we worked so hard for, suddenly useless and meaningless.
- I am sorry for disliking that my character looks exactly the same as the person next to me.
- I am sorry for getting bored when rushing the same keep over and over again. I know I am supposed to enjoy killing someone; seeing them come back unscathed a minute later; then dying myself; then running back, in hopes some of them will get frustrated and log off.
- I am sorry for hating the fact that I cant whack the enemy thats strolling through my land because they wont "allow" me to kill them by taking down their flag. After all, thats how war works, right?
- Death is not supposed to hurt. Now when we die, there is absolutely no penalty. I am sorry for not being afraid of death. Sorry for not getting getting any sort of rush when entering the enemy's territory, cause you know, I just die and restart back in town.
- I am sorry for nodding off to sleep when playing Warhammer Online's battleground PvP.
- .....And World of Warcraft's battleground's, too.
- I am sorry for wanting to give my character depth, and disliking making items the sole thing that define who your character is. I know now, because it makes the game shallower, and thats what we want. We shouldnt give our characters any depth. Items define our character, and in order to define our character, we must farm.
- I am sorry for hating the fact that in order to really "beat" or "kill" someone you either have to make them leave the area in frustration or log out.
- I am sorry for being unable to participate in long raids that take up 3 or 4 hours of my day time, struggling for the boss to drop a rare item that has a 1% chance to drop. I am sorry for having to like that, because I cant. I'm sorry for disliking the long, repetitive dungeon runs. We must all participate in long dungeon runs in order to have fun, and define ourselves.
- I am sorry for the only excitement I get is the anticipation of the battleground ending.
- I am sorry for not being interested in the one or two "gear sets" that you have provided for us. I know I should be grateful; after all, why should my character even be just a little unique?
- I am sorry that I dont enjoy being a delivery boy or a killer hired to perform genocide on some insignificant creature in the world. Those things really should mean alot to me. But they dont. - I am sorry for wanting to make my own path for myself in the world, but I realize the developers have a greater plan for all of us....the same plan...for all of us. - I am sorry for not getting any sort of excitement when I enter a zone, knowing full well that the sting of death simply wont hurt me. After all; I am a God - just like everyone else!
- I am sorry for seeing all this crap as just a massive grind; for the only thing we're supposed to look forward to is leveling up. I am sorry for wanting to enjoy the bland world you have given us.
- I am sorry for being unable to enjoy the large, open world you have given us. I am sorry for wanting to climb those mountains in the background, only to find that they are just wallpaper. Gosh, I was so dumb!
- I am sorry for not seeing the logic of having siege weapons yet not being able to actually destroy the keep.
- I am sorry for not supporting games that are released incomplete.
- I am sorry for wanting a dynamic world where some things change; but I realize we cant have that now. We must have a static world where players can compete mercilessly, where they can get lost in the farming and grinding, where the only thing matters is that next item and level; so they can stay hooked on the game.
I am sorry for wanting to have some fun. I realize now...guys, all the people here that are complaining, MMO video games arent supposed to be FUN! Theyre supposed to be work. A second job, ya got me? I mean, why should we have freedom in an MMO?
MMO's are all about entering the massive grinder, where you work hard to get that nice item, grind some more, die, revive, get another item, level up rinse and repeat. And everything else stays the same.
THATS fun. THATS the modern MMO.
And if you dont like it? Well then MMO's arent for you.
Comments
Absolutely great post OP! Don't let the linear fanbois get you down(more than the industry already has)
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
Just because something is not what you like, does not mean it's horrible.
It seems your massive post distills into wanting a few key things:
1) Unique Characters
2) World Interaction and Impact
3) "Meaningful Death"
4) More permanent PvP
Overall) A harder (hardcore?) game
Now, lets look at those a little closer at all of that, since these "AAA MMO's" seem to have so little of it!
1) Unique Characters:
Having this is pretty much the staple of new MMO's. And it changes everything significantly. Without character classes, the players get a lot of freedom, but the party system is changed almost completely. Now, if parties are to be formed, there is a lot more work to find out who has what, and who can do what. It takes more time than just "Looking for <Archetype>". Sure, some players like it that way, and it encourages communication, but for a lot of people, it's a headache to deal with all that.
But you could argue that they'd have their own specialties, where people make healers and fighters and tanks on their own. Well, that takes us back to square one, doesn't it?
There's also the "Jack of all trades, master of none" problem. People would always look for the best for the job. Who would want a guy with 2 heals and 2 attacks, when they could go for a guy with 4 heals?
Perhaps you want to not be confined to a job? Newer MMO's are doing that. WAR healers are hardly the "sit back and heal" types. Look at warrior priests, for example. They can put out damage, and heal. Look at AoC classes, where the lines between archetypes are blurred.
2) World Interaction and Impact
This is pretty hard to pull off. Ideally, you could have it so once something happens, it happens. If the enemy takes a city, it's gone. If a dragon is killed, he's gone. But, this would just cater to the "world first" people. And, it would cost more, I'd say. You're getting developers to make that much more content, since everything is changing. They design a city and it gets destroyed, now they have to make a ruined city and maybe a new city elsewhere to replace it. The dragon is dead, now the dungeon is closed, so they have to make more dungeons so players don't run out of content.
Yes, that is the extreme, where once it happens it happens, and yes, there is always middle ground. But I'm just making the point that its probably more expensive (or at least, resource consuming) to have it.
Plus, you'd have players don't like the stability of the world, who don't know what to look forward to. That sweet dungeon 5 levels away? It could be gone at any moment. That massive Kraken they want to kill? It could be dead in an hour.
You'd get a large numbers of players who, ironically, feel disconnected from the world because everyone can change the world. If they're not at the forefront of the world, they're helpless and useless.
3) Meaningful Death
This is a short one. I really do understand the appeal of a death penalty. People love asking for severe death penalties.
But think of what that causes-- Reluctance. Reluctance to try that dungeon with a group that might go either way. Reluctance to fight that player coming down the road. Reluctance to go into enemy territory. Reluctance to otherwise lose their time and effort put into the character.
This works on some MMO's, and not in others. Do you think Warhammer would have so many people out PvPing (it's changed a lot since launch) if losing meant they lost an hour of their work? Would people in WoW try endgame dungeons if losing meant they'd lose their gear and level?
4) More permanent PvP
Yes, death penalties add fear and intensity into the mix, but it also reduces freedom. How many people would show up to the city if losing meant they'd lose their character? (I am sorry for hating the fact that in order to really "beat" or "kill" someone you either have to make them leave the area in frustration or log out.)
How many people would even engage in PvP if losing meant they lost a chunk of their XP and gear? Keep in mind, in PvP death is as regular as auto attack, moreso with real-time combat games.
Yes, there would be fear and excitement from "oh man, this is so risky", but not everyone would put up with it.
Overall) A harder (hardcore?) game
People are going to bet putting in a lot of time into their characters. MMO's are all about putting time into characters and having something to show for it. Putting all this time into it, people want to enjoy their time. Most people don't want to log in to their MMO only to have a bad day on it and lose days of work. They don't want teeth-grinding battles and fear-inducing skirmishes after having a long day at work. They don't want to be locked out of content just because some guild on a different time zone got to the content first.
Think of the average person. Someone who, unlike most of us here, they did not grow up with games as their hobby. They have a lot more on their mind than games, unlike someone who's hobby IS games. They want to log in for a while, have fun and log out. For someone who doesn't play as many video games, their idea of fun may not be losing 5 hours of progress because they got caught in a bad situation.
All this talk of hardcore unforgiving MMOs in a completely %100 open world, that's not for everyone. It only appeals to certain kinds of gamers, people who don't mind losing that weapon they got from a long dungeon, or bought for 100 gold from another player.
There's a reason these "AAA MMO's" don't have your checklist. It's because they're accessible. And, yes, too much can ruin a game. But, I hardly believe WoW and WAR as are "easy button mode" as you claim they are. Yes, it's not as hardcore as you'd like. But they don't just hand out rewards.
It's not that easy to do a WoW raid. It's not that easy to take a defended Keep in WAR. It takes time, effort and coordination for those.
Just because they have the most numbers, does not mean you have to play them. Go find your perfect MMO. It may not have 11 million subscribers. It may not have constant media attention. It may not even have a full battallion of devs. But what it does have is a playerbase, which ought to be good enough for you. Unless of course, you're just looking for attention.
No one is forcing you to play the big MMO's. There are TONS of MMO's out there, and many more on the way. If you're not playing them because the'yre not as big or bad, well, you're not as "hardcore" as you claim to be.
Uhhh, I don't know about you guy's but all i want is an mmo that's fun.. LOL
Didn't you get the memo, they aren't about fun. They are about punishing you for trying to have fun.
Didn't you get the memo, they aren't about fun. They are about punishing you for trying to have fun.
rofl so true
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
Didn't you get the memo, they aren't about fun. They are about punishing you for trying to have fun.
Oh Bladin, what would you do if you didn't respawn at full health 15 seconds after you died in an MMO?
Aren't their enough risk free, heavily rewarded, linear hold your hand games that you crave so much for you to play, instead of coming here and bashing the people that want something different?
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
Ya i gave it a try after i swore i wouldn't ;p
that game should be a poster boy for a lemmon law for mmo's
so if someone is pissed off or at least aggrivated by the direction of MMORPGs ... he shouldn't post his frustrations on a website called MMORPG.com
oh i know your wonderful advice is to what? wait and hope the developers pull thier heads from thier asses? or maybe the classic "hey if you don't like it go design a MMO" ... because im sure everyone just has 10-20 million a team of developers and the overall knowhow just laying around.
Yeah, but you act like this post says anything new or unique or fresh, it's just the same post recycled over and over.
welcome to the internet ... first time here?
Nope, that's why i'm saying quit the QQ
You are not getting the point, you can completely ignore this thread if you like. Yet you are here, complaining about it.
It's called a Forum, this is the idea of a forum anyways. (Heres the definintion: "a public meeting or assembly for open discussion " from wordreference.com)
See, that is the point of posting here, to openly discuss, even to read your post, or post of other people who like to shut other people up.
Ok let's say for the sake of argument that I agree 100%. What's your plan? See the problem is, while a developer may read this thread, they are well aware that this is a fan site and is therefore skewed toward more hardcore players. As an example how may hard core PvPers are there here. I would say a lot more than in real games, or at least real games that survive and do well. A lot of the opinions posted in these forums would certainly kill a game quickly or relegate it to second tier status. That's really NOT what a developer is looking for. That's not to say that there aren't good ideas here. I think the OP had some valid complaints. However it's not obvious how to separate the good ideas from the game killers. I think this thread would be more constructive if were to focus on solutions rather than simple complaints.
I would love to say that I disagree with you, however the unfortunate truth is that you are right. Developers will only ever see the numbers and those sub numbers mean $$$. So Modern MMO gaming is what we will see more of. An unfortunate truth... but a truth none the less.
so if someone is pissed off or at least aggrivated by the direction of MMORPGs ... he shouldn't post his frustrations on a website called MMORPG.com
oh i know your wonderful advice is to what? wait and hope the developers pull thier heads from thier asses? or maybe the classic "hey if you don't like it go design a MMO" ... because im sure everyone just has 10-20 million a team of developers and the overall knowhow just laying around.
Yeah, but you act like this post says anything new or unique or fresh, it's just the same post recycled over and over.
welcome to the internet ... first time here?
Nope, that's why i'm saying quit the QQ
You are not getting the point, you can completely ignore this thread if you like. Yet you are here, complaining about it.
It's called a Forum, this is the idea of a forum anyways. (Heres the definintion: "a public meeting or assembly for open discussion " from wordreference.com)
See, that is the point of posting here, to openly discuss, even to read your post, or post of other people who like to shut other people up.
The problem is that this EXACT SAME THREAD, comes up OVER AND OVER, from the SAME few people, with the SAME few supporters OVER AND OVER.
Then in EVERY SINGLE OTHER THREAD, someone with the same doctrite comes in and is like "you want to decide between aoc and lotro? fuck em both play eve its a real game!"
Where am i supposed to go? the game im currently playing? nope sandbox fans there are there for more arguements. Games im not playing? why would i be there. General? this thread is the same as the other 10 on front page.(exaggeration)
There seem to be an abundance of people who don't even grasp the basics of internet communities. How ridiculous do you have to be to get upset and complain about people talking about MMORPGs on a forum for MMORPGs.
See
/signed.
Completely agree with the OP and most of the other responses. If it weren't for a couple of recent new efforts (MO, ER, FE and DF) I pretty much would have stopped playing MMOs. While I don't necessarily like all 4 of those titles I mentioned I am glad they are being made. Hopefully a return to that style of MMO being made is happening.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
so if someone is pissed off or at least aggrivated by the direction of MMORPGs ... he shouldn't post his frustrations on a website called MMORPG.com
oh i know your wonderful advice is to what? wait and hope the developers pull thier heads from thier asses? or maybe the classic "hey if you don't like it go design a MMO" ... because im sure everyone just has 10-20 million a team of developers and the overall knowhow just laying around.
Yeah, but you act like this post says anything new or unique or fresh, it's just the same post recycled over and over.
welcome to the internet ... first time here?
Nope, that's why i'm saying quit the QQ
You are not getting the point, you can completely ignore this thread if you like. Yet you are here, complaining about it.
It's called a Forum, this is the idea of a forum anyways. (Heres the definintion: "a public meeting or assembly for open discussion " from wordreference.com)
See, that is the point of posting here, to openly discuss, even to read your post, or post of other people who like to shut other people up.
The problem is that this EXACT SAME THREAD, comes up OVER AND OVER, from the SAME few people, with the SAME few supporters OVER AND OVER.
Then in EVERY SINGLE OTHER THREAD, someone with the same doctrite comes in and is like "you want to decide between aoc and lotro? fuck em both play eve its a real game!"
Where am i supposed to go? the game im currently playing? nope sandbox fans there are there for more arguements. Games im not playing? why would i be there. General? this thread is the same as the other 10 on front page.(exaggeration)
Perhaps there is a reason why this threads like these pop up over and over again? Because there are a lot of us looking for a game made for us?
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
When I first read this post I was sure, that there would be angry responses. But there shouldn't be. This forum is for praise and criticism. Its no bodys right to say this post doesn't belong here (though I guses I am ironically suggesting posts that suggest this don't belong here) . The point is there is a huge audience who are desperate for something new and who are genuinely disgusted by what has been coming out. I think the more of these threads the better until a niche is found for this audience. Any half-witted developer has staff surfing these forums and other forums, and the more support they see for the type of game we want, the more likely we will get it. Every game is a risk and an investment, and the 11.5 million WoW is sitting on seems to be pointing most games in that direction. We have seen line after line of WoW imitators, granted they have their unique qualities and strengths, but when it comes down to it they are more simmilar to WoW than this crowd's likeing.
However WoW cannot be beaten at its own game. Just as every writer must put their work into the market knowing it competes with Shakespeare, WAR and AoC etc. must submit themselves to judgement vs WoW, and in my opinion and 11.5 million peoples opinions they fall short. And so, you must beat WoW by changing the game. The modernest movements and countercultural movements becamse in a sense a niche with realtive success because they changed the genere. You can't compare Joyce to Shakespeare because they are doing different things.
This may not seem relevant but the same applies to the MMO market. Nobody can beat WoW and I say that without 100% confidence but it has become the model of excellence love it or hate it. By posting on this forum we give the dreaming MMO artist some incentive, and the publishers some confidence, and the investors some certainty. When people say its their game they do what they want, stop whining, this forum is for MMO lovers not haters etc. they are either unkowingly hurting the situation, or actively hoping to prevent a new budding MMO movement. Sandbox games are going to be big when they happen as most posters want it. Many people have said "ugh another sandbox request, ive read a million of these." Often the same features will be found, everybody is thinking the same thing. Its just a matter of time until this takes off. There may be a few bubbles in between, but it will happen.
Darkfall and Mortal online are just a few that have just been announced. Yes I'll try them. (Also EQ is making a new server ^_^ that might be cool).
I couldn't have said it better myself, but gamer generation Y ( Those born in the late 80's and early 90's) can't seem to get enough of cookie cutter MMO's. It seems most the MMO industry is trying to cater to this age group who suffer for the most part from attention deficit disorder. So they build semi linear MMO's for them. Then hold their hand around in it. I'm so sick of that MMO formula I'm currently back in Uo just to fill in the gap whilst I wait to try DF. I must admit I still love how you play a mage in UO. No other MMO compares.
I was born in the early 90s T_T
I got started pretty early at the ripe age of 10 with EQ
Actually, that's not the choice.
In order to positively change the MMO industry, you need to become an executive at a major publisher. Being a designer is not enough. The suits call the shots. They set the boundaries on the designers, who then give direction to the developers.
The key is to become one of those executives, and not be compromised by insatiable greed in the process.
I wish you luck.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
Op,
Everything you are looking for is here http://www.wurmonline.com .. look no further
Wurmonline is the gem amongst the rough. No matter how many other games you try you will always return to Wurm online .
If you are looking for a true skill based open ended sandbox game where you can directly affect the game environment then Wurmonline is for you.
Check it out, you will not be disappointed.
It's not like you can become an MMO designer instantly, even if he started learing now it would still take serveral years of schooling, so at the moment the "useless drivel on an internetz forum" is all he has. And I agree with him.
Your prayers are answered, the massive grinder is changing. The new route to go seems to be the cash shop. Even THe Old Republic is talking about a cash shop.
No more working hard to get that nice item. You just buy it.
THAT is the modern MMO.
Just keeps gettin better n better....each MMO that comes out gives us a new reason to go console or stick to single player games.
QFT.
Haha to the OP:
This thread is awesome. I couldn't agree more. Since 1999 the MMO genre has dumbed itself down to the point of being pathetic.
The sad reality is that as long as most of the MMO players want dumbed down games, most of the games these companies develop are going to be dumbed down games.
It's lose/lose for those of us who enjoy actual virtual worlds and unique gaming.
WoW has 12 million subscribers. That proves how feeble the gaming community truly is.
Tecmo Bowl.
How about this one be the last one of these explainations of why mmos suck and just post it everywhere. that way we dont have to ass.
Sad but true. Nice post OP.