I hate metal bands for not making hip hop albums.. I hate comedians for not making action movies.. and I hate devs for not making the game i want to play
no less than 4 sandbox MMOs is supposed to release next year so what are you all whining about?
your analogies are flawed, we hate mmorpg devs for not make good MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER ROLE PLAYING GAMES! We do NOT WANT single player online action games!
Too bad you and your type are not right. You are not important, and just because you like that type of mmo, it's not your right/responsibility, or even justifiable to call what a mmorpg is.
His analogy is right. That's exactly what you are asking. If you start defining mmos based on "no levels/classes" "No quests" etc etc, then what exactly is a mmorpg? IT's a empty world with developer creation tools. Because if a developer adds anything for players to do, it's no longer sandbox in your opinion is it?
the action game thing is kindof over the top, and no classes/levels do not make a game a NON rpg, instead, it reinforces the "rpgness" of a game... but they aren't massively multiplayer most importantly, you can't tell me with a straight face that Wow (with a completely soloable 1-70 and instanced dungeons and instanced battlefields) is actually an mmo, neither can you say WAR (with its instanced pvp grind) is an mmo.
wow is a mmo.
So was Ultima Online when it launched and it had no levels and no quests as they are commonly done today in the follow the yellow brick road to each quest hub method. And it didn't have an empty feel because it didn't use that quest method. Developer content doesn't have to rely on the current crutch of quests like they do. Games like UO (no levels) and AC (had levels but didn't rely on them for progression) proved that.
Just saying that you don't have to have levels or quests (as they are done today) in order not to have an "empty world".
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
I hate metal bands for not making hip hop albums.. I hate comedians for not making action movies.. and I hate devs for not making the game i want to play
no less than 4 sandbox MMOs is supposed to release next year so what are you all whining about?
your analogies are flawed, we hate mmorpg devs for not make good MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER ROLE PLAYING GAMES! We do NOT WANT single player online action games!
Too bad you and your type are not right. You are not important, and just because you like that type of mmo, it's not your right/responsibility, or even justifiable to call what a mmorpg is.
His analogy is right. That's exactly what you are asking. If you start defining mmos based on "no levels/classes" "No quests" etc etc, then what exactly is a mmorpg? IT's a empty world with developer creation tools. Because if a developer adds anything for players to do, it's no longer sandbox in your opinion is it?
the action game thing is kindof over the top, and no classes/levels do not make a game a NON rpg, instead, it reinforces the "rpgness" of a game... but they aren't massively multiplayer most importantly, you can't tell me with a straight face that Wow (with a completely soloable 1-70 and instanced dungeons and instanced battlefields) is actually an mmo, neither can you say WAR (with its instanced pvp grind) is an mmo.
wow is a mmo.
So was Ultima Online when it launched and it had no levels and no quests as they are commonly done today in the follow the yellow brick road to each quest hub method. And it didn't have an empty feel because it didn't use that quest method. Developer content doesn't have to rely on the current crutch of quests like they do. Games like UO (no levels) and AC (had levels but didn't rely on them for progression) proved that.
Just saying that you don't have to have levels or quests (as they are done today) in order not to have an "empty world".
Let me ask you this.
You got freedom in your sandbox. what are you doing?
Killing monsters
Killing Players
Crafting items
That's it. The difference is, you can choose when to go do it, and where.
I never said AC or UO aren't mmos. But let me state this.
If you take world of warcraft and
Remove Quests
Remove levels
Remove item progression
Remove Instances
Remove Battlegrounds
Remove faction alignment at creation
Remove classes and just let everyone access any of the talent trees(with spells that go along with the ones they want)
And how does it differ from UO?
It doesn't.
Don't you think it's odd that you strip tons of content and actual... stuff from wow, and it resembles a sandbox? There's a reason for that. Because sandbox are empty games that players make fake content for.
I hate metal bands for not making hip hop albums.. I hate comedians for not making action movies.. and I hate devs for not making the game i want to play
no less than 4 sandbox MMOs is supposed to release next year so what are you all whining about?
your analogies are flawed, we hate mmorpg devs for not make good MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER ROLE PLAYING GAMES! We do NOT WANT single player online action games!
Too bad you and your type are not right. You are not important, and just because you like that type of mmo, it's not your right/responsibility, or even justifiable to call what a mmorpg is.
His analogy is right. That's exactly what you are asking. If you start defining mmos based on "no levels/classes" "No quests" etc etc, then what exactly is a mmorpg? IT's a empty world with developer creation tools. Because if a developer adds anything for players to do, it's no longer sandbox in your opinion is it?
the action game thing is kindof over the top, and no classes/levels do not make a game a NON rpg, instead, it reinforces the "rpgness" of a game... but they aren't massively multiplayer most importantly, you can't tell me with a straight face that Wow (with a completely soloable 1-70 and instanced dungeons and instanced battlefields) is actually an mmo, neither can you say WAR (with its instanced pvp grind) is an mmo.
wow is a mmo.
So was Ultima Online when it launched and it had no levels and no quests as they are commonly done today in the follow the yellow brick road to each quest hub method. And it didn't have an empty feel because it didn't use that quest method. Developer content doesn't have to rely on the current crutch of quests like they do. Games like UO (no levels) and AC (had levels but didn't rely on them for progression) proved that.
Just saying that you don't have to have levels or quests (as they are done today) in order not to have an "empty world".
Let me ask you this.
You got freedom in your sandbox. what are you doing?
Killing monsters
Killing Players
Crafting items
That's it. The difference is, you can choose when to go do it, and where.
I never said AC or UO aren't mmos. But let me state this.
If you take world of warcraft and
Remove Quests
Remove levels
Remove item progression
Remove Instances
Remove Battlegrounds
Remove faction alignment at creation
Remove classes and just let everyone access any of the talent trees(with spells that go along with the ones they want)
And how does it differ from UO?
It doesn't.
Don't you think it's odd that you strip tons of content and actual... stuff from wow, and it resembles a sandbox? There's a reason for that. Because sandbox are empty games that players make fake content for.
Hey, I mean, that's your opinion and it doesn't look like anyone or anything is going to ever talk you down from it. that's cool man.
I would like to add, though, that in a sandbox you can have:
Player housing
A multitude non-combat skills
Factions (both player and npc)
Flexability in combat oriented skills - Don't have to wait for a certain class to show up to go fighting
More player politics - Players are the story and not, in my mind, in an artificial way. Their own motivations are driving their interactions with the world and not from a scripted NPC quest.
Dynamic story (AC did this really well).
I personally don't think that removing all those items you listed from WoW makes it anymore like UO than it already is. They're both MMOs. One works for your tastes and the other works for mine. I do think the genre has been done a severe injustice by focusing solely on one way of making them. A solid AAA company has yet to make a serious effort at a sandbox game since WoW. I think that's pretty much why some folks are upset or disappointed.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Let me ask you this. You got freedom in your sandbox. what are you doing? Killing monsters Killing Players Crafting items That's it. The difference is, you can choose when to go do it, and where. I never said AC or UO aren't mmos. But let me state this. If you take world of warcraft and Remove Quests Remove levels Remove item progression Remove Instances Remove Battlegrounds Remove faction alignment at creation Remove classes and just let everyone access any of the talent trees(with spells that go along with the ones they want) And how does it differ from UO? It doesn't. Don't you think it's odd that you strip tons of content and actual... stuff from wow, and it resembles a sandbox? There's a reason for that. Because sandbox are empty games that players make fake content for.
Hey, I mean, that's your opinion and it doesn't look like anyone or anything is going to ever talk you down from it. that's cool man.
I would like to add, though, that in a sandbox you can have:
Player housing - can, it's not required, and it's not impossible in games like wow
A multitude non-combat skills - crafting? i stated this.
Factions (both player and npc)
Flexability in combat oriented skills - Don't have to wait for a certain class to show up to go fighting - Depends on the game, look at coh, it's not sandbox, yet you can do anything with anyone. and a sandbox game can have defense skills and healing skills that are required to do content, theres no rule saying that theres not.
More player politics - Players are the story and not, in my mind, in an artificial way. Their own motivations are driving their interactions with the world and not from a scripted NPC quest. - please, the extent of player motivation is "we want to attack someone, so we'll raid you all" "we want to camp this area for ourselves". The exception would be conflicts between. In UO, what was the reason you were ganking/being ganked? Look at eve, people pvp just because they WANT conflict, theres no greater reasoning behind it. Theres no need to pvp since theres no real gain or loss of any real importance.
Heres the thing, in every sandbox game everything you "do" is created by player motivations, but at the same time it's worthless. Theres no point to any of it. Player quests are fake, and are not part of the real world lore. Conflict is created for the sake of conflict.
Games will never be similar to DnD, where the sandbox playstyle is REAL, because the world ISN'T a real thing, and just by thinking something you change the world. You can't bring it over into games.
Dynamic story (AC did this really well).
I personally don't think that removing all those items you listed from WoW makes it anymore like UO than it already is. They're both MMOs. One works for your tastes and the other works for mine. I do think the genre has been done a severe injustice by focusing solely on one way of making them. A solid AAA company has yet to make a serious effort at a sandbox game since WoW. I think that's pretty much why some folks are upset or disappointed.
Tell me this, removing the things i stated, beyond player housing, whats the difference? There isn't any. Yet if you take UO, add quests, add more items, add a progression scale(which takes more owrk then a generalized strength)
Here's the thing, even BEFORE wow, there were no serious sandbox attempts, there was AC, and UO, that's it, everything else has been indy, yet there was EQ, DAoC, and BEFORE wow, there was L2, CoH, FFXI, AO, phantasy star-, all the asian games. Which all aren't sandbox games.
OP: Great rant! Sincere, sarcastic, and on point. Why shouldn't we, as MMO fans, be pissed off by all of these bland, cookie cutter games?
You want to make a linear, noob friendly MMO? Great. There's definately a place and an audience for that type of game. However, do we really need to fill the entire genre with that? Hell no. What are the rest of us (who already know how to play MMOs) supposed to play? As it stands, right now, we have exactly 1 option...EVE. Space ships not your thing? Well...sorry...
Sandbox is a myth. First define it and then back it up.
Sandbox; A game where the player is only provided with an open envirionment, with the resources and tools with with to effect it and build their own world. In a true sandbox game, not just a game with sandbox elements, would include everything 'civilised' in that game, from roads, to housing, to economy, to laws. The players create and run the culture and history of the world which they have built.
Once more for you 'sandbox' whiners out there who don't read back over threads before you post.
Regarding complaining about themepark MMOs and over hyped cr*ppy AAA titles;
How many of the sandbox MMOs out now do you actually play? ATitD 2? No, scratch that, are you helping them beta 3 inbetween angsting all over forums? How about Istaria? Supporting that much recently? Oh... how about Saga of Ryzom? Hows your game there?
Before you knock the major AAA themeparks, and believe me I have my own gripes with them, you BETTER be putting your money where your mouth is and be playing or supporting some of the indie sandbox games already out there.
And don't give that 'but they suxx0r' line please?
If you 'I want a Sandbox' whiners won't put your money where your mouth is and actually play the ones in existance, no matter even if they don't tick ALL your personal 'fun' boxes, then OF COURSE no serious money will go into developing new ones.
Maybe the reason you can't have 'fun' is 'cause you arnt even trying? If it isnt 2 feet in front of you and hyped to the moon most of you won't even look at it. It's tragic.
You want a game that 100% suits YOU or it's not 'fun'?
I'm still waiting for an MMO developed by MMORPG.com/forumUsers.
I'm waiting for the MMORPG.com forum for that game. It will be hilarious, and filled to the brim with threads of people QQ'ing about how the game isn't sandbox enough and the world isn't dynamic enough.
This post deserves to be read by every game developer in the world. This post is exactly what we all feel about MMO's but for some reason we are still strongly addicted to these games. We cant get away.
Even if every MMORPG is a pre-determind path created by the developer and we have no impact. We still pay for the carnival ticket that we can somewhat enjoy from the comfort of our homes.
I personally hate everything you hate but the things i love I am addicted to. For example, the lore and story of these worlds. LotrO for example is like interacting and engaging with a virtual book/novel. I simply love sitting and reading every quest. The people who skip every quest read and try to rush through the MMOrpgs are not rpg'ers. Its like trying to skip and rush through a final fantasy game or a single player rpg. U just dont do that. The people that do, that crave things like PvP, need to be playing CoD or Counter-strike.
I agree that there are some twitch based mmo's the do require the skill that say counterstrike requires. But its never enough. Theres always that long pause and breaks when u realize you have to lvl up more.
I love all games and play all games. MMO's just satisfy a different part of my cravings. I always still find myself playing Wc3, diablo, fifa, all console games, cstrike. U name it, i play it. even handhelds.
I love the slew of linear fanbois that feel the need to come in here and piss on the sandbox people, as if they aren't happy enough with pretty much every game made being catered to them, and can't stand the thought of us even getting one or two mainstream games made for us. Sad really, but essentially fits right in with the selfish "Gimme Now" target audience that the linear games attract.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike Loved: Star Wars Galaxies Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
I love the slew of linear fanbois that feel the need to come in here and piss on the sandbox people, as if they aren't happy enough with pretty much every game made being catered to them, and can't stand the thought of us even getting one or two mainstream games made for us. Sad really, but essentially fits right in with the selfish "Gimme Now" target audience that the linear games attract.
And just like the whiny QQ sandbox fans, they always go to other games forums to impose why their game sucks and not a real mmo.
I'm still waiting for an MMO developed by MMORPG.com/forumUsers
What a hilariously awful game that would be.
couldn't be much worse than WoW ... how hard is it to steal elements from other games and get a team to put them together.
thats basically What WoW did.
Just like how UO/eve/every other mmorpg/fps/rpg/rts steals things from something to make their own.
Seriously, WoW was inspired by EQs design, but it basically was the first to do to it's polished extent, set up the solo/group content scheme and quest based progression, which WASN'T a mmorpg feature before it.
You may not realize it after all the wow styled games that have come out, but it was a fresh breath of air of a stagnant, old, clunky, unfriendly mmorpg market.
I love the slew of linear fanbois that feel the need to come in here and piss on the sandbox people, as if they aren't happy enough with pretty much every game made being catered to them, and can't stand the thought of us even getting one or two mainstream games made for us. Sad really, but essentially fits right in with the selfish "Gimme Now" target audience that the linear games attract.
u are right with the fact that the audience is a gimme now people... but unfortunately the people asking for a sandbox game is a vocal minority... and no developer or publisher will risk making such thing...
I know the gimme now doesnt sound like a good behavior, but is what right now makes profit.. and with the developer/publisher behavior of the new McDonalds motto... Lets make some crap with out quality and hope to empty your pockets before you know it... This industry of mmos isnt going any sandboxy any time soon....
Honesty i dont think we are going to see a sandbox game ever again... maybe DF if that can be called sandbox... and if people actually likes it...
Old School is kinda gone... New school doesnt like old school.... and new school is larger and more profitable than old school... so the dead of oldschool can be achieve.... that is waht this companies are doing....
I love the slew of linear fanbois that feel the need to come in here and piss on the sandbox people, as if they aren't happy enough with pretty much every game made being catered to them, and can't stand the thought of us even getting one or two mainstream games made for us. Sad really, but essentially fits right in with the selfish "Gimme Now" target audience that the linear games attract.
And just like the whiny QQ sandbox fans
Point proven.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike Loved: Star Wars Galaxies Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
I love the slew of linear fanbois that feel the need to come in here and piss on the sandbox people, as if they aren't happy enough with pretty much every game made being catered to them, and can't stand the thought of us even getting one or two mainstream games made for us. Sad really, but essentially fits right in with the selfish "Gimme Now" target audience that the linear games attract.
u are right with the fact that the audience is a gimme now people... but unfortunately the people asking for a sandbox game is a vocal minority... and no developer or publisher will risk making such thing...
I know the gimme now doesnt sound like a good behavior, but is what right now makes profit.. and with the developer/publisher behavior of the new McDonalds motto... Lets make some crap with out quality and hope to empty your pockets before you know it... This industry of mmos isnt going any sandboxy any time soon....
Honesty i dont think we are going to see a sandbox game ever again... maybe DF if that can be called sandbox... and if people actually likes it...
Old School is kinda gone... New school doesnt like old school.... and new school is larger and more profitable than old school... so the dead of oldschool can be achieve.... that is waht this companies are doing....
Well first of all, there are like 3 or 4 sandbox MMOs scheduled to come out in the next year or two. But anyways, I think the sandbox crowd is a lot bigger than people realize. There were 200k+ SWG players when the NGE got dumped on us, and that was just in that game. No one really knows how many players that have only played WoW or something similar would actually really like a sandbox style game, but just don't know it because no good ones have been delivered since WoW.
Frankly, the linear market is saturated, and the only way for developers to land a decent playerbase is to try something different, not more of the same. The next year or so should be very interesting.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike Loved: Star Wars Galaxies Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
200k sounds like a big number but is more like an illusion of greatness in numbers of people...
maybe if u have 200k people.. u can say wow... thats a lot of people but compared to the millions of peeps taht play other mmos.... those 200k turn to be smaller.... not to mention that with only 200k u can only keep alive only one mmo... and in a regular shape.. not so great.. considering the expenses of development and running the game...
if one MMO cost at least 15 million bucks in development... they better sell around 430K boxes if u are going to get back the money you invest... with out any aditional profit.. thats it...
Comments
yes, the same smile as when you're talking to a retarded person and you are explaining how to use a fork., and thinking "ugh is this for real"
your analogies are flawed, we hate mmorpg devs for not make good MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER ROLE PLAYING GAMES! We do NOT WANT single player online action games!
Too bad you and your type are not right. You are not important, and just because you like that type of mmo, it's not your right/responsibility, or even justifiable to call what a mmorpg is.
His analogy is right. That's exactly what you are asking. If you start defining mmos based on "no levels/classes" "No quests" etc etc, then what exactly is a mmorpg? IT's a empty world with developer creation tools. Because if a developer adds anything for players to do, it's no longer sandbox in your opinion is it?
the action game thing is kindof over the top, and no classes/levels do not make a game a NON rpg, instead, it reinforces the "rpgness" of a game... but they aren't massively multiplayer most importantly, you can't tell me with a straight face that Wow (with a completely soloable 1-70 and instanced dungeons and instanced battlefields) is actually an mmo, neither can you say WAR (with its instanced pvp grind) is an mmo.
wow is a mmo.
So was Ultima Online when it launched and it had no levels and no quests as they are commonly done today in the follow the yellow brick road to each quest hub method. And it didn't have an empty feel because it didn't use that quest method. Developer content doesn't have to rely on the current crutch of quests like they do. Games like UO (no levels) and AC (had levels but didn't rely on them for progression) proved that.
Just saying that you don't have to have levels or quests (as they are done today) in order not to have an "empty world".
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
Go make your own MMO, problem solved.
"The great thing about human language is that it prevents us from sticking to the matter at hand."
- Lewis Thomas
your analogies are flawed, we hate mmorpg devs for not make good MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER ROLE PLAYING GAMES! We do NOT WANT single player online action games!
Too bad you and your type are not right. You are not important, and just because you like that type of mmo, it's not your right/responsibility, or even justifiable to call what a mmorpg is.
His analogy is right. That's exactly what you are asking. If you start defining mmos based on "no levels/classes" "No quests" etc etc, then what exactly is a mmorpg? IT's a empty world with developer creation tools. Because if a developer adds anything for players to do, it's no longer sandbox in your opinion is it?
the action game thing is kindof over the top, and no classes/levels do not make a game a NON rpg, instead, it reinforces the "rpgness" of a game... but they aren't massively multiplayer most importantly, you can't tell me with a straight face that Wow (with a completely soloable 1-70 and instanced dungeons and instanced battlefields) is actually an mmo, neither can you say WAR (with its instanced pvp grind) is an mmo.
wow is a mmo.
So was Ultima Online when it launched and it had no levels and no quests as they are commonly done today in the follow the yellow brick road to each quest hub method. And it didn't have an empty feel because it didn't use that quest method. Developer content doesn't have to rely on the current crutch of quests like they do. Games like UO (no levels) and AC (had levels but didn't rely on them for progression) proved that.
Just saying that you don't have to have levels or quests (as they are done today) in order not to have an "empty world".
Let me ask you this.
You got freedom in your sandbox. what are you doing?
Killing monsters
Killing Players
Crafting items
That's it. The difference is, you can choose when to go do it, and where.
I never said AC or UO aren't mmos. But let me state this.
If you take world of warcraft and
Remove Quests
Remove levels
Remove item progression
Remove Instances
Remove Battlegrounds
Remove faction alignment at creation
Remove classes and just let everyone access any of the talent trees(with spells that go along with the ones they want)
And how does it differ from UO?
It doesn't.
Don't you think it's odd that you strip tons of content and actual... stuff from wow, and it resembles a sandbox? There's a reason for that. Because sandbox are empty games that players make fake content for.
Sandbox is a myth. First define it and then back it up.
your analogies are flawed, we hate mmorpg devs for not make good MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER ROLE PLAYING GAMES! We do NOT WANT single player online action games!
Too bad you and your type are not right. You are not important, and just because you like that type of mmo, it's not your right/responsibility, or even justifiable to call what a mmorpg is.
His analogy is right. That's exactly what you are asking. If you start defining mmos based on "no levels/classes" "No quests" etc etc, then what exactly is a mmorpg? IT's a empty world with developer creation tools. Because if a developer adds anything for players to do, it's no longer sandbox in your opinion is it?
the action game thing is kindof over the top, and no classes/levels do not make a game a NON rpg, instead, it reinforces the "rpgness" of a game... but they aren't massively multiplayer most importantly, you can't tell me with a straight face that Wow (with a completely soloable 1-70 and instanced dungeons and instanced battlefields) is actually an mmo, neither can you say WAR (with its instanced pvp grind) is an mmo.
wow is a mmo.
So was Ultima Online when it launched and it had no levels and no quests as they are commonly done today in the follow the yellow brick road to each quest hub method. And it didn't have an empty feel because it didn't use that quest method. Developer content doesn't have to rely on the current crutch of quests like they do. Games like UO (no levels) and AC (had levels but didn't rely on them for progression) proved that.
Just saying that you don't have to have levels or quests (as they are done today) in order not to have an "empty world".
Let me ask you this.
You got freedom in your sandbox. what are you doing?
Killing monsters
Killing Players
Crafting items
That's it. The difference is, you can choose when to go do it, and where.
I never said AC or UO aren't mmos. But let me state this.
If you take world of warcraft and
Remove Quests
Remove levels
Remove item progression
Remove Instances
Remove Battlegrounds
Remove faction alignment at creation
Remove classes and just let everyone access any of the talent trees(with spells that go along with the ones they want)
And how does it differ from UO?
It doesn't.
Don't you think it's odd that you strip tons of content and actual... stuff from wow, and it resembles a sandbox? There's a reason for that. Because sandbox are empty games that players make fake content for.
Hey, I mean, that's your opinion and it doesn't look like anyone or anything is going to ever talk you down from it. that's cool man.
I would like to add, though, that in a sandbox you can have:
Player housing
A multitude non-combat skills
Factions (both player and npc)
Flexability in combat oriented skills - Don't have to wait for a certain class to show up to go fighting
More player politics - Players are the story and not, in my mind, in an artificial way. Their own motivations are driving their interactions with the world and not from a scripted NPC quest.
Dynamic story (AC did this really well).
I personally don't think that removing all those items you listed from WoW makes it anymore like UO than it already is. They're both MMOs. One works for your tastes and the other works for mine. I do think the genre has been done a severe injustice by focusing solely on one way of making them. A solid AAA company has yet to make a serious effort at a sandbox game since WoW. I think that's pretty much why some folks are upset or disappointed.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
Hey, I mean, that's your opinion and it doesn't look like anyone or anything is going to ever talk you down from it. that's cool man.
I would like to add, though, that in a sandbox you can have:
Player housing - can, it's not required, and it's not impossible in games like wow
A multitude non-combat skills - crafting? i stated this.
Factions (both player and npc)
Flexability in combat oriented skills - Don't have to wait for a certain class to show up to go fighting - Depends on the game, look at coh, it's not sandbox, yet you can do anything with anyone. and a sandbox game can have defense skills and healing skills that are required to do content, theres no rule saying that theres not.
More player politics - Players are the story and not, in my mind, in an artificial way. Their own motivations are driving their interactions with the world and not from a scripted NPC quest. - please, the extent of player motivation is "we want to attack someone, so we'll raid you all" "we want to camp this area for ourselves". The exception would be conflicts between. In UO, what was the reason you were ganking/being ganked? Look at eve, people pvp just because they WANT conflict, theres no greater reasoning behind it. Theres no need to pvp since theres no real gain or loss of any real importance.
Heres the thing, in every sandbox game everything you "do" is created by player motivations, but at the same time it's worthless. Theres no point to any of it. Player quests are fake, and are not part of the real world lore. Conflict is created for the sake of conflict.
Games will never be similar to DnD, where the sandbox playstyle is REAL, because the world ISN'T a real thing, and just by thinking something you change the world. You can't bring it over into games.
Dynamic story (AC did this really well).
I personally don't think that removing all those items you listed from WoW makes it anymore like UO than it already is. They're both MMOs. One works for your tastes and the other works for mine. I do think the genre has been done a severe injustice by focusing solely on one way of making them. A solid AAA company has yet to make a serious effort at a sandbox game since WoW. I think that's pretty much why some folks are upset or disappointed.
Tell me this, removing the things i stated, beyond player housing, whats the difference? There isn't any. Yet if you take UO, add quests, add more items, add a progression scale(which takes more owrk then a generalized strength)
Here's the thing, even BEFORE wow, there were no serious sandbox attempts, there was AC, and UO, that's it, everything else has been indy, yet there was EQ, DAoC, and BEFORE wow, there was L2, CoH, FFXI, AO, phantasy star-, all the asian games. Which all aren't sandbox games.
Give me real-time combat. I am sick of RPG "push 5 hotkeys and wait for the predetermined outcome)...
Give me deep crafting...
Give me player housing/player cities...
Give me an open virtual world with limited instancing and zoning...
Give me options for unique appearance...
Give me a deep character customization...
Give me a skill-based character progression...
Give me a difficult environment to survive in...
Give me the opportunity and need to work with other players at times...
Give me a dynamic and evolving storyline...
Give me all or most of those things and I will pay you $30/month to play your game.
Tecmo Bowl.
OP: Great rant!
Sincere, sarcastic, and on point. Why shouldn't we, as MMO fans, be pissed off by all of these bland, cookie cutter games?
You want to make a linear, noob friendly MMO? Great. There's definately a place and an audience for that type of game. However, do we really need to fill the entire genre with that? Hell no. What are the rest of us (who already know how to play MMOs) supposed to play? As it stands, right now, we have exactly 1 option...EVE. Space ships not your thing? Well...sorry...
Sandbox; A game where the player is only provided with an open envirionment, with the resources and tools with with to effect it and build their own world. In a true sandbox game, not just a game with sandbox elements, would include everything 'civilised' in that game, from roads, to housing, to economy, to laws. The players create and run the culture and history of the world which they have built.
Example; A Tale in the Desert 2.
Once more for you 'sandbox' whiners out there who don't read back over threads before you post.
Regarding complaining about themepark MMOs and over hyped cr*ppy AAA titles;
How many of the sandbox MMOs out now do you actually play? ATitD 2? No, scratch that, are you helping them beta 3 inbetween angsting all over forums? How about Istaria? Supporting that much recently? Oh... how about Saga of Ryzom? Hows your game there?
Before you knock the major AAA themeparks, and believe me I have my own gripes with them, you BETTER be putting your money where your mouth is and be playing or supporting some of the indie sandbox games already out there.
And don't give that 'but they suxx0r' line please?
If you 'I want a Sandbox' whiners won't put your money where your mouth is and actually play the ones in existance, no matter even if they don't tick ALL your personal 'fun' boxes, then OF COURSE no serious money will go into developing new ones.
Maybe the reason you can't have 'fun' is 'cause you arnt even trying? If it isnt 2 feet in front of you and hyped to the moon most of you won't even look at it. It's tragic.
You want a game that 100% suits YOU or it's not 'fun'?
Get a grip.
Fingers crossed for Darkfall.
I'm still waiting for an MMO developed by MMORPG.com/forumUsers
What a hilariously awful game that would be.
I'm waiting for the MMORPG.com forum for that game. It will be hilarious, and filled to the brim with threads of people QQ'ing about how the game isn't sandbox enough and the world isn't dynamic enough.
This post deserves to be read by every game developer in the world. This post is exactly what we all feel about MMO's but for some reason we are still strongly addicted to these games. We cant get away.
Even if every MMORPG is a pre-determind path created by the developer and we have no impact. We still pay for the carnival ticket that we can somewhat enjoy from the comfort of our homes.
I personally hate everything you hate but the things i love I am addicted to. For example, the lore and story of these worlds. LotrO for example is like interacting and engaging with a virtual book/novel. I simply love sitting and reading every quest. The people who skip every quest read and try to rush through the MMOrpgs are not rpg'ers. Its like trying to skip and rush through a final fantasy game or a single player rpg. U just dont do that. The people that do, that crave things like PvP, need to be playing CoD or Counter-strike.
I agree that there are some twitch based mmo's the do require the skill that say counterstrike requires. But its never enough. Theres always that long pause and breaks when u realize you have to lvl up more.
I love all games and play all games. MMO's just satisfy a different part of my cravings. I always still find myself playing Wc3, diablo, fifa, all console games, cstrike. U name it, i play it. even handhelds.
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What a hilariously awful game that would be.
couldn't be much worse than WoW ... how hard is it to steal elements from other games and get a team to put them together.
thats basically What WoW did.
I love the slew of linear fanbois that feel the need to come in here and piss on the sandbox people, as if they aren't happy enough with pretty much every game made being catered to them, and can't stand the thought of us even getting one or two mainstream games made for us. Sad really, but essentially fits right in with the selfish "Gimme Now" target audience that the linear games attract.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
And just like the whiny QQ sandbox fans, they always go to other games forums to impose why their game sucks and not a real mmo.
What a hilariously awful game that would be.
couldn't be much worse than WoW ... how hard is it to steal elements from other games and get a team to put them together.
thats basically What WoW did.
Just like how UO/eve/every other mmorpg/fps/rpg/rts steals things from something to make their own.
Seriously, WoW was inspired by EQs design, but it basically was the first to do to it's polished extent, set up the solo/group content scheme and quest based progression, which WASN'T a mmorpg feature before it.
You may not realize it after all the wow styled games that have come out, but it was a fresh breath of air of a stagnant, old, clunky, unfriendly mmorpg market.
u are right with the fact that the audience is a gimme now people... but unfortunately the people asking for a sandbox game is a vocal minority... and no developer or publisher will risk making such thing...
I know the gimme now doesnt sound like a good behavior, but is what right now makes profit.. and with the developer/publisher behavior of the new McDonalds motto... Lets make some crap with out quality and hope to empty your pockets before you know it... This industry of mmos isnt going any sandboxy any time soon....
Honesty i dont think we are going to see a sandbox game ever again... maybe DF if that can be called sandbox... and if people actually likes it...
Old School is kinda gone... New school doesnt like old school.... and new school is larger and more profitable than old school... so the dead of oldschool can be achieve.... that is waht this companies are doing....
And just like the whiny QQ sandbox fans
Point proven.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
u are right with the fact that the audience is a gimme now people... but unfortunately the people asking for a sandbox game is a vocal minority... and no developer or publisher will risk making such thing...
I know the gimme now doesnt sound like a good behavior, but is what right now makes profit.. and with the developer/publisher behavior of the new McDonalds motto... Lets make some crap with out quality and hope to empty your pockets before you know it... This industry of mmos isnt going any sandboxy any time soon....
Honesty i dont think we are going to see a sandbox game ever again... maybe DF if that can be called sandbox... and if people actually likes it...
Old School is kinda gone... New school doesnt like old school.... and new school is larger and more profitable than old school... so the dead of oldschool can be achieve.... that is waht this companies are doing....
Well first of all, there are like 3 or 4 sandbox MMOs scheduled to come out in the next year or two. But anyways, I think the sandbox crowd is a lot bigger than people realize. There were 200k+ SWG players when the NGE got dumped on us, and that was just in that game. No one really knows how many players that have only played WoW or something similar would actually really like a sandbox style game, but just don't know it because no good ones have been delivered since WoW.
Frankly, the linear market is saturated, and the only way for developers to land a decent playerbase is to try something different, not more of the same. The next year or so should be very interesting.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
200k sounds like a big number but is more like an illusion of greatness in numbers of people...
maybe if u have 200k people.. u can say wow... thats a lot of people but compared to the millions of peeps taht play other mmos.... those 200k turn to be smaller.... not to mention that with only 200k u can only keep alive only one mmo... and in a regular shape.. not so great.. considering the expenses of development and running the game...
if one MMO cost at least 15 million bucks in development... they better sell around 430K boxes if u are going to get back the money you invest... with out any aditional profit.. thats it...
This is Genius, +10 from all the gamerz out there, respect Brother and dont worry ill spread this everywhere i can even if they ban me.
A weapon doesnt make a Warrior Legendary, Is the warrior who makes the weapon.
Demand it stickied.