This debate really has no meaning. You're arguing semantics over a few catch phrases. Games are either generally fun or they're not. If they're not, it's usually a combination of factors. It has nothing to do with being a "sandbox" game or an "fps" game or whatever. You can create whatever contrived categories you want and try to force them on every game on the list, but that doesn't offer any real insight into why a particular game is bad or what can be done to improve the genre. If anything, it's probably this type of thinking that kills creativity in the genre.
It's funny that people hold up UO as the pinnicle of mmo's. If memory serves, everyone in UO looked exactly the same (wearing a robe, riding the same horse, usually with polearm or katana). There were really only 3-4 viable combat builds for a character. Everyone had the same house. PvP occured in the same areas. It's ironic that the very things you complain about are an inherent part of the game everyone likes to idolize as the greatest "sandbox" game ever.
I agree with Bladin. The OP is nothing more than an obnoxious spin on the same stale "argument" that gets posted over and over again. Also, the idea that devs read threads like this and take anything they read to heart is laughable. Let's hope that's true because if it's not, the game industry is in trouble.
Bladin, I have a question for you. If you don't like sandbox games and the principle behind them, if you prefer the easy mode *caugh* I mean themepark games, then why come to this thread and complain when people express their sadness that sandbox games have been forgotten?
Are you just looking for arguments or something? It's pretty clear that themepark and sandbox fans will never agree on most of the aspects when it comes to MMOs. So why come here and try to belittle the OP and call him a whiner? It's completely beyond me...
I am sorry for hating the class system. I dont want be a class, I dont want to have almost the exact same skill set as the person next to me. I am sorry for wanting to be unique. I know now, we must all be clones of each other in order to have fun.
I also hate the class system. It creates imbalance. It is the sole reason for the buff/nerf wars that exist in PvP games today. We just ride waves of nerfs and buffs, complaining the whole way, but we never stop to think whether the balance situation can be resolved completely in a class system. We myopically want to be buffed and the enemy nerfed. We sacrifice balance for some kind of vestigial salute to single player RPGs.
However, the sole cure for imablance is, infact, cloning. That is to say, everyone being exactly the same, at least in hardcoded power terms.
A better term is equality. If all players, given enough time, develop the same skills/powers/abilities, then what makes them different?
A few things including preparation, strategy and execution. Instead of some developer holding our hand and telling us that by making a rogue we are unique (along with the other several thousand rogues), we will have a system where we gain "uniqueness" or rather notoriety by our ability to beat others on an equal platform. This is the essence of player skill. This is the essence of being unique.
It is indeed paradoxical to say, but to make us truly unique, hardcoded powers need to be the same throughout (no racial powers, classes etc). This will solve all problems concerning balance and cloning.
Any proof one has that you are QQ-ing, in and of itself does not invalidate a single one of your points. I was QQ-ing when I typed this post. QQ-ing doesn't mean you're right or wrong, it only describes your emotional state.
props to the OP.. even though we've heard this all before, it pretty much sums up how a lot of us feel about the MMOs nowadays. anyone that doesn't feel this way probably hasn't played a sandbox MMO, so they don't know what they're really missing.
that being said... keep your eyes on darkfall and mortal online. they could be the answer to our prayers.
Let me ask you this. You got freedom in your sandbox. what are you doing? Killing monsters Killing Players Crafting items That's it. The difference is, you can choose when to go do it, and where. I never said AC or UO aren't mmos. But let me state this. If you take world of warcraft and Remove Quests Remove levels Remove item progression Remove Instances Remove Battlegrounds Remove faction alignment at creation Remove classes and just let everyone access any of the talent trees(with spells that go along with the ones they want) And how does it differ from UO? It doesn't. Don't you think it's odd that you strip tons of content and actual... stuff from wow, and it resembles a sandbox? There's a reason for that. Because sandbox are empty games that players make fake content for.
Hey, I mean, that's your opinion and it doesn't look like anyone or anything is going to ever talk you down from it. that's cool man.
I would like to add, though, that in a sandbox you can have:
Player housing - can, it's not required, and it's not impossible in games like wow
Based on WoW's current design I'd say it pretty much impossible unless you instance it, which is 100% not what I was talking about when talking housing. And yes, housing and other options of players owning some form of land and/or property is a requirement. Arguing it is moot as it'll be rare that two people will have the same definition, be it for Sandbox or Themepark. UO had this and SWG had this. Not saying it is the defining feature, but it is a feature.
A multitude non-combat skills - crafting? i stated this.
Nope. Nice assumption though.
Factions (both player and npc)
Flexability in combat oriented skills - Don't have to wait for a certain class to show up to go fighting - Depends on the game, look at coh, it's not sandbox, yet you can do anything with anyone. and a sandbox game can have defense skills and healing skills that are required to do content, theres no rule saying that theres not.
Yes, but from what I understand of CoH you can basically pick and choose what "super powers" to assign to you character which makes it easier to do so. The rigid class based games define "roles" for each class which often, not always, requires certain classes to be there for the majority of actions. That did not happen in UO or AC and for the most part in the pre-nge world of SWG.
More player politics - Players are the story and not, in my mind, in an artificial way. Their own motivations are driving their interactions with the world and not from a scripted NPC quest. - please, the extent of player motivation is "we want to attack someone, so we'll raid you all" "we want to camp this area for ourselves". The exception would be conflicts between. In UO, what was the reason you were ganking/being ganked? Look at eve, people pvp just because they WANT conflict, theres no greater reasoning behind it. Theres no need to pvp since theres no real gain or loss of any real importance.
Hey, if that's the limits of your thinking there's nothing I can do about that. I have in my time in UO seen involved plots and...well...roleplaying over the establishment of princdoms and ruling of areas. The "because I can" killing takes place in every game that allows pvp so in my mind isn't a valid point. It's going to happen if you let any players fight other players. It's the fact of actually having options and features available so that those who want to actually put a little art into their gameplay experience that I like in sandbox games and that themeparks don't offer. Your last line above describes themepark games to a "T" in my eyes. Sanbox games are more prone to have systems that give some cause and that create some sense of ownership to those ends.
Heres the thing, in every sandbox game everything you "do" is created by player motivations, but at the same time it's worthless. Theres no point to any of it. Player quests are fake, and are not part of the real world lore. Conflict is created for the sake of conflict.
No, everything you "do" isn't created by the players. That maybe in your definition of your sandbox, but most folks don't carry such an absolutist vision of the style. As to the second part of your paragrapgh I agree that it would be nice to dee some developers allow for player generated content to have some physical effect on the world. This area of game features is long overdue for a look at what potential it has.
Games will never be similar to DnD, where the sandbox playstyle is REAL, because the world ISN'T a real thing, and just by thinking something you change the world. You can't bring it over into games.
Never say never. Companies don't want to invest is the issue. It can be done and the technology is there now. Companies just don't want to hire the manpower it would take to pull it off. I'm not blaming, just pointing out the facts. They don't believe it has a good ROI. *shrug*
Dynamic story (AC did this really well).
I personally don't think that removing all those items you listed from WoW makes it anymore like UO than it already is. They're both MMOs. One works for your tastes and the other works for mine. I do think the genre has been done a severe injustice by focusing solely on one way of making them. A solid AAA company has yet to make a serious effort at a sandbox game since WoW. I think that's pretty much why some folks are upset or disappointed.
Tell me this, removing the things i stated, beyond player housing, whats the difference? There isn't any. Yet if you take UO, add quests, add more items, add a progression scale(which takes more owrk then a generalized strength)
There's no difference to you. Fine. You don't look through my eyes so you can't definitivly state there is none for me. Sorry. You're neither omnipotent or a telepath.
Here's the thing, even BEFORE wow, there were no serious sandbox attempts, there was AC, and UO, that's it, everything else has been indy, yet there was EQ, DAoC, and BEFORE wow, there was L2, CoH, FFXI, AO, phantasy star-, all the asian games. Which all aren't sandbox games.
Because before WoW the whole idea of the genre of MMOs was just getting started. The idea of Sandbox wasn't even forumlated then. It was after the onslaught of wow inspired themepark games that the connotations begain. And you do a good job at proving my point. There needs to be more serious efforts at this style. Having only one style does no good for the genre. It's been stagnate for a few years now. What some of you people seem to think is that that means to stop making themeparks entirely. Sorry, but I'm not that extremist in thought. I'm only suggesting that both types should receive serious effort. MMos for people who prefer to "just play a game" and MMOs for people prefer to "play in an online world that has the details and offers the breadth of occupations that a real world would have".
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Originally posted by Octaviuz A better term is equality. If all players, given enough time, develop the same skills/powers/abilities, then what makes them different? I am sorry for hating the class system. I dont want be a class, I dont want to have almost the exact same skill set as the person next to me. I am sorry for wanting to be unique. I know now, we must all be clones of each other in order to have fun. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I also hate the class system. It creates imbalance. It is the sole reason for the buff/nerf wars that exist in PvP games today. We just ride waves of nerfs and buffs, complaining the whole way, but we never stop to think whether the balance situation can be resolved completely in a class system. We myopically want to be buffed and the enemy nerfed. We sacrifice balance for some kind of vestigial salute to single player RPGs.
A few things including preparation, strategy and execution. Instead of some developer holding our hand and telling us that by making a rogue we are unique (along with the other several thousand rogues), we will have a system where we gain "uniqueness" or rather notoriety by our ability to beat others on an equal platform. This is the essence of player skill. This is the essence of being unique.
SKILL SYSTEM. Thats whats needed for players to create truely unique classes. The onus is off teh developers to create balance and on the players. We could al come up with 100 skills, including attacks and spells. Just give me a blank-slate and allow me to level 10 skills of my choice to 100 or 20 skills of my choice to 50.
There'd be so much diversity it would make your head spin, and take imbalance off the table since it becomes a moot point; truely unique.
I agree. And there is no true sand-box game as I stated; the concept is cool, but hybrids are only going to be successful I beleive since the majority of the market dont want to build everything from scratch like in A Tale in the Desert. If that wasnt the case, that game and the upcoming AfterWorld would be huge hits.
I always go back to Eve Online when I need a break from grinding, cookie-cutter character classes and inept twinks. If there was a fantasy version of Eve as well as the sci-fi, I'd marry it.
Perhaps I could read all 65,000 pages of the game lore of WoW. I would not even have to suscribe to read the book. Or I could create it myself in a sandbox world. True depth is not reading but doing.
True depth is a strike of genious, not some ungrown kid who thinks he owns the world.
True masterpieces are not created by spoiled video game kids.
So the 65.000 pages of Lore are there to supplement the enjoyment of the world you want to live and play in.
Not even talking of the books (who aren't even included in those 65.000 pages).
At least I am part of that world, just as good (or even better) as I was part of D&D paper and pencil.
Think about it - silly sandbox dreamers.
I'll take a ride on my selfmade motorbike after I landed with my self made helicopter.
It seems like you mixing volume with depth. The 65,000 page compendium of which you speak truly pails in comparison with LOTR, yet you pay it more homage because it is (supposedly) longer.
But I will not doubt that you enjoy your time reading and roleplaying a character in that setting. But have no doubts that there are people who would prefer a sandbox. I enjoy developing my own modes of transportation, not silly motorbikes and helicopters.
Peace my friend. Enjoy your game. I will search and strive for a game that I enjoy. No need for you to interfere here.
holy shit i just read my own thoughts! But then again, i'm also a remnant of the last millenia, it's something with us that don't enjoy the new casual MMOs eh?
you're right !However, we always of lots of sorries for things or for persons.So what? why not pay more time more attention to them?hey~guy~relax yourself
I'm surprised that people are actually pissed off by threads like this. If you enjoy the current crop of MMOs, why would you even care? You have at least a few options out there that you could be playing, rather than hangin on the forums.
MMO fans are NEVER going to agree on one type of MMO.
OP : Read this: ------------ As the governor of the Alliance principality of Hearthglen, Tirion lived a comfortable life, well-respected by his subjects and loved by his wife Karanda and son Taelan. Both a great warrior and a just ruler, Tirion was renowned throughout the Kingdom of Lordaeron. In spite of his acclaimed military prowess, Tirion's experience as a Paladin during the orcish invasions had taught him to value peace. After the wars were over, Tirion prayed every night that no conflict would ever bring harm to his subjects again. One day, he encountered an old orc hermit living in an abandoned tower. The two immediately battled and traded blows until a piece of the ruined tower collapsed on Tirion, knocking him senseless. He awoke in his bed days later and discovered that he had been found badly beaten, tied to his saddle, and had been healed by his ambitious second, Barthilas. Realizing that the orc had saved him, Tirion set out and retraced his steps back to the tower. The orc Eitrigg told Tirion that, before the coming to Azeroth, the orcs had been a noble society rooted in shamanism. After the war, he had left the corrupt Horde. Tirion, seeing great honor in Eitrigg, promised to keep his existence a secret, returning to his people and informing them that the orc had been dealt with and was not a threat. Barthilas was not so confident, and called Saidan Dathrohan to come and settle the matter himself. Dathrohan picked up the trail and led a group of hunters into the woods, where they found Eitrigg. During the orc's capture, Tirion fought against Dathrohan's men, prompting Barthilas to gleefully note that his actions were treasonous. Tirion was brought to Stratholme to stand trial. Despite Karandra's pleas to forget his honor and tell the jury what they wanted to hear, Tirion, hoping to be an example to his son, told the court exactly what had happened. Ultimately, the jury of Admiral Daelin Proudmoore, Arch-Mage Antonidas, Archbishop Alonsus Faol, and Prince Arthas Menethil decided that since Tirion had assaulted Alliance soldiers, he could no longer be a member of the Knights of the Silver Hand and was doomed to exile. Uther the Lightbringer performed a ceremony to strip Tirion of his powers and sent him home to gather some supplies. Desperate to prevent Eitrigg from being executed for war crimes, Tirion rode back to Stratholme, where he attacked Eitrigg's guards. Surprised, they still managed to subdue him, until a group of orcs stormed into the city. Tirion used the distraction to free Eitrigg and flee the city. When they were in the wilds, Tirion saw that Eitrigg was near death, and did the only thing he could do; call upon the powers of the Light to heal the orc who had saved him. To his surprise, he still had the powers blessed by the Light and Eitrigg was saved. They abruptly found themselves surrounded by orcs and a new Warchief, Thrall, who approached Eitrigg and invited him back into the Horde — which had since reverted back to its shamanistic roots once more. Eitrigg was thrilled to accept. Tirion remained in Lordaeron, to watch his son Taelan be inducted into the Silver Hand. His son later became the lord of Mardenholde. Tirion's wife told his son that Tirion had died, and even took him to a false grave at the Undercroft, where Taelan buried the toy warhammer his father had given him in memory of his father.
See also: Of Blood and Honor Exile and Return Tirion lived out his exile in a small farmstead, in the northwest of what became the Eastern Plaguelands, on the shores of the Thondroril River with his trusty horse, Mirador. During the Third War he often fought off the undead Scourge. He was dismayed to find later that his son, Taelan, joined the Scarlet Crusade, and even became the highlord of that order. Nonetheless, he kept watching his son from afar, and even enlisted some adventurers to help him as he and a few Crusaders became trapped in the small village of Cinderhome, surrounded by Scourge forces who were interrupting the Crusade's attempt to re-settle the area.LoC 111 Later, Tirion turned to adventurers yet again to have them collect mementos of his son's past which finally enabled him to convince his son to leave the Crusade, only to see him killed in the attempt. Spurred by his son's death, Tirion resolved to reform the original Silver Hand as a force of good in the world. .... meet the rest of his continuing story in Wow, tbc and Wotlk. ---------- This is just an extract of the ... 65.000 pages of lore info on wowwiki.com and it is not even half a page of info on one of its thousands and thousands of not even major NPC's in the game. No need to say NOT ONE game will even come close lorewise to what Blizzard has created since 1992. Middle Earth looks like a small village compared to what Blizzard is creating. But of course YOU and the rest of the young adoloscents on mmorpg.com (and Mark Jacobs of course) can do better, don't you?
and, how exactly does that allow me to conquer territory and build my own city in wow?
how does that allow me to have great armor (tier 1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/etc) and not essentially look like all the other characters who have progressed as far as i have?
how does that allow me to be a rogue, who has some buffing/healing type powers, along with a couple of fireball type attacks, and the ability to use a shield, while commanding my vicious attack marmosets? oh yeah, wow is the cookie cutter class/build game, right?
so where um, in all that lore, prior to tbc, were all the blue space aliens? or is tbc wow's version of the movie, Highlander 2?
the op (original post) lamented that all these games are incredibly linear and everyone is a clone, and to summarize, the gameplay/experience is simply craptastic.
just because wow has millions, that does not mean any game copying wow will get those numbers. that's something these people need to learn... wow had YEARS of blizznet, blizznet kiddies, blizznet players that grew up with blizznet and were now adults... cyber cafes and places where starcraft is STILL being played fanatically.... blizzard north had a MASSIVE following before WoW was released.
swg could have easily had those numbers at release.... if the people making that game had put in the effort that the blizzard north team had put into creating WoW.
for the record, i don't believe anyone associated with blizzard north, still works at blizzard.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
I'm surprised that people are actually pissed off by threads like this.
I don't think anyone is pissed off by a thread like this so much as they're bored of the subject and tired of the endless QQ'ing from the so-called sandbox purists. Every thread like this is the same, and boils down to someone whining and bitching about how pretty much every game out there isn't allowing them to be the Epic Godlike Uber-hero they want to be, where every single thing they do affects and changes the world, and where the NPC's react to their every adventure telling them how great they are.
I hate metal bands for not making hip hop albums.. I hate comedians for not making action movies.. and I hate devs for not making the game i want to play
no less than 4 sandbox MMOs is supposed to release next year so what are you all whining about?
your analogies are flawed, we hate mmorpg devs for not make good MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER ROLE PLAYING GAMES! We do NOT WANT single player online action games!
Too bad you and your type are not right. You are not important, and just because you like that type of mmo, it's not your right/responsibility, or even justifiable to call what a mmorpg is.
His analogy is right. That's exactly what you are asking. If you start defining mmos based on "no levels/classes" "No quests" etc etc, then what exactly is a mmorpg? IT's a empty world with developer creation tools. Because if a developer adds anything for players to do, it's no longer sandbox in your opinion is it?
the action game thing is kindof over the top, and no classes/levels do not make a game a NON rpg, instead, it reinforces the "rpgness" of a game... but they aren't massively multiplayer most importantly, you can't tell me with a straight face that Wow (with a completely soloable 1-70 and instanced dungeons and instanced battlefields) is actually an mmo, neither can you say WAR (with its instanced pvp grind) is an mmo.
wow is a mmo.
So was Ultima Online when it launched and it had no levels and no quests as they are commonly done today in the follow the yellow brick road to each quest hub method. And it didn't have an empty feel because it didn't use that quest method. Developer content doesn't have to rely on the current crutch of quests like they do. Games like UO (no levels) and AC (had levels but didn't rely on them for progression) proved that.
Just saying that you don't have to have levels or quests (as they are done today) in order not to have an "empty world".
Let me ask you this.
You got freedom in your sandbox. what are you doing?
Killing monsters
Killing Players
Crafting items
That's it. The difference is, you can choose when to go do it, and where.
I never said AC or UO aren't mmos. But let me state this.
If you take world of warcraft and
Remove Quests
Remove levels
Remove item progression
Remove Instances
Remove Battlegrounds
Remove faction alignment at creation
Remove classes and just let everyone access any of the talent trees(with spells that go along with the ones they want)
And how does it differ from UO?
It doesn't.
Don't you think it's odd that you strip tons of content and actual... stuff from wow, and it resembles a sandbox? There's a reason for that. Because sandbox are empty games that players make fake content for.
So um, eve online has no content, other than player-made fake content?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
I'm surprised that people are actually pissed off by threads like this.
I don't think anyone is pissed off by a thread like this so much as they're bored of the subject and tired of the endless QQ'ing from the so-called sandbox purists. Every thread like this is the same, and boils down to someone whining and bitching about how pretty much every game out there isn't allowing them to be the Epic Godlike Uber-hero they want to be, where every single thing they do affects and changes the world, and where the NPC's react to their every adventure telling them how great they are.
LOL.. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about at all. The whole point of what we want is NOT to be the hero, just to be an average joe. /sigh, you come here and whine about sandbox people and don't even know what you are talking about.
If you don't like these threads, it's as easy as not looking at them.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike Loved: Star Wars Galaxies Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
I hate metal bands for not making hip hop albums.. I hate comedians for not making action movies.. and I hate devs for not making the game i want to play
no less than 4 sandbox MMOs is supposed to release next year so what are you all whining about?
your analogies are flawed, we hate mmorpg devs for not make good MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER ROLE PLAYING GAMES! We do NOT WANT single player online action games!
Too bad you and your type are not right. You are not important, and just because you like that type of mmo, it's not your right/responsibility, or even justifiable to call what a mmorpg is.
His analogy is right. That's exactly what you are asking. If you start defining mmos based on "no levels/classes" "No quests" etc etc, then what exactly is a mmorpg? IT's a empty world with developer creation tools. Because if a developer adds anything for players to do, it's no longer sandbox in your opinion is it?
the action game thing is kindof over the top, and no classes/levels do not make a game a NON rpg, instead, it reinforces the "rpgness" of a game... but they aren't massively multiplayer most importantly, you can't tell me with a straight face that Wow (with a completely soloable 1-70 and instanced dungeons and instanced battlefields) is actually an mmo, neither can you say WAR (with its instanced pvp grind) is an mmo.
wow is a mmo.
So was Ultima Online when it launched and it had no levels and no quests as they are commonly done today in the follow the yellow brick road to each quest hub method. And it didn't have an empty feel because it didn't use that quest method. Developer content doesn't have to rely on the current crutch of quests like they do. Games like UO (no levels) and AC (had levels but didn't rely on them for progression) proved that.
Just saying that you don't have to have levels or quests (as they are done today) in order not to have an "empty world".
Let me ask you this.
You got freedom in your sandbox. what are you doing?
Killing monsters
Killing Players
Crafting items
That's it. The difference is, you can choose when to go do it, and where.
I never said AC or UO aren't mmos. But let me state this.
If you take world of warcraft and
Remove Quests
Remove levels
Remove item progression
Remove Instances
Remove Battlegrounds
Remove faction alignment at creation
Remove classes and just let everyone access any of the talent trees(with spells that go along with the ones they want)
And how does it differ from UO?
It doesn't.
Don't you think it's odd that you strip tons of content and actual... stuff from wow, and it resembles a sandbox? There's a reason for that. Because sandbox are empty games that players make fake content for.
So um, eve online has no content, other than player-made fake content?
Don't even bother arguing with Bladin. He doesn't understand the appeal of a sandbox. Choices scare him. Creating our own content is just insane. He can't imagine an MMO world where you aren't a class a developer designs for you and you don't respawn unscathed 15 seconds after you die, and nothing you say or do will ever change his linear little heart.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike Loved: Star Wars Galaxies Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
The whole point of what we want is NOT to be the hero, just to be an average joe.
That doesn't make a damn bit of sense. If you just want to be an average Joe, then why the hell would you spend $50 on a game box and pay $15 a month in subscription fees? That's stupid. Just go outside and live a normal life.
These games are about an escape from the normal. They're entertainment, and a way to unwind after a long day of work and school. Who the hell wants to just be a normal Joe in an MMO?
The whole point of what we want is NOT to be the hero, just to be an average joe.
That doesn't make a damn bit of sense. If you just want to be an average Joe, then why the hell would you spend $50 on a game box and pay $15 a month in subscription fees? That's stupid. Just go outside and live a normal life.
These games are about an escape from the normal. They're entertainment, and a way to unwind after a long day of work and school. Who the hell wants to just be a normal Joe in an MMO?
LOL! Good point. Why QQ for the power of a sandbox only to be an average joe? You know you want to be god like creatures that thirst for griefing players above all. E-Peen Xtremeism to the fullest. Average Joe my ass!
In this box, only one story can be told.....Grief! That story has a small following whether you like it or not.
Comments
This debate really has no meaning. You're arguing semantics over a few catch phrases. Games are either generally fun or they're not. If they're not, it's usually a combination of factors. It has nothing to do with being a "sandbox" game or an "fps" game or whatever. You can create whatever contrived categories you want and try to force them on every game on the list, but that doesn't offer any real insight into why a particular game is bad or what can be done to improve the genre. If anything, it's probably this type of thinking that kills creativity in the genre.
It's funny that people hold up UO as the pinnicle of mmo's. If memory serves, everyone in UO looked exactly the same (wearing a robe, riding the same horse, usually with polearm or katana). There were really only 3-4 viable combat builds for a character. Everyone had the same house. PvP occured in the same areas. It's ironic that the very things you complain about are an inherent part of the game everyone likes to idolize as the greatest "sandbox" game ever.
I agree with Bladin. The OP is nothing more than an obnoxious spin on the same stale "argument" that gets posted over and over again. Also, the idea that devs read threads like this and take anything they read to heart is laughable. Let's hope that's true because if it's not, the game industry is in trouble.
Great post OP, pretty much exactly how I feel.
Bladin, I have a question for you. If you don't like sandbox games and the principle behind them, if you prefer the easy mode *caugh* I mean themepark games, then why come to this thread and complain when people express their sadness that sandbox games have been forgotten?
Are you just looking for arguments or something? It's pretty clear that themepark and sandbox fans will never agree on most of the aspects when it comes to MMOs. So why come here and try to belittle the OP and call him a whiner? It's completely beyond me...
A bit repetitive.
Posting sarcasm on an internet forum is not my favourite form of humor.
But fair point. To think. We played virtual worlds to escape from big business. (I did at least) Its too late now they've got their fangs in it.
So true Pelu.
I am sorry for hating the class system. I dont want be a class, I dont want to have almost the exact same skill set as the person next to me. I am sorry for wanting to be unique. I know now, we must all be clones of each other in order to have fun.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I also hate the class system. It creates imbalance. It is the sole reason for the buff/nerf wars that exist in PvP games today. We just ride waves of nerfs and buffs, complaining the whole way, but we never stop to think whether the balance situation can be resolved completely in a class system. We myopically want to be buffed and the enemy nerfed. We sacrifice balance for some kind of vestigial salute to single player RPGs.
However, the sole cure for imablance is, infact, cloning. That is to say, everyone being exactly the same, at least in hardcoded power terms.
A better term is equality. If all players, given enough time, develop the same skills/powers/abilities, then what makes them different?
A few things including preparation, strategy and execution. Instead of some developer holding our hand and telling us that by making a rogue we are unique (along with the other several thousand rogues), we will have a system where we gain "uniqueness" or rather notoriety by our ability to beat others on an equal platform. This is the essence of player skill. This is the essence of being unique.
It is indeed paradoxical to say, but to make us truly unique, hardcoded powers need to be the same throughout (no racial powers, classes etc). This will solve all problems concerning balance and cloning.
I agree with the OP.
Any proof one has that you are QQ-ing, in and of itself does not invalidate a single one of your points. I was QQ-ing when I typed this post. QQ-ing doesn't mean you're right or wrong, it only describes your emotional state.
Guild Wars 2 is my religion
props to the OP.. even though we've heard this all before, it pretty much sums up how a lot of us feel about the MMOs nowadays. anyone that doesn't feel this way probably hasn't played a sandbox MMO, so they don't know what they're really missing.
that being said... keep your eyes on darkfall and mortal online. they could be the answer to our prayers.
Hey, I mean, that's your opinion and it doesn't look like anyone or anything is going to ever talk you down from it. that's cool man.
I would like to add, though, that in a sandbox you can have:
Player housing - can, it's not required, and it's not impossible in games like wow
Based on WoW's current design I'd say it pretty much impossible unless you instance it, which is 100% not what I was talking about when talking housing. And yes, housing and other options of players owning some form of land and/or property is a requirement. Arguing it is moot as it'll be rare that two people will have the same definition, be it for Sandbox or Themepark. UO had this and SWG had this. Not saying it is the defining feature, but it is a feature.
A multitude non-combat skills - crafting? i stated this.
Nope. Nice assumption though.
Factions (both player and npc)
Flexability in combat oriented skills - Don't have to wait for a certain class to show up to go fighting - Depends on the game, look at coh, it's not sandbox, yet you can do anything with anyone. and a sandbox game can have defense skills and healing skills that are required to do content, theres no rule saying that theres not.
Yes, but from what I understand of CoH you can basically pick and choose what "super powers" to assign to you character which makes it easier to do so. The rigid class based games define "roles" for each class which often, not always, requires certain classes to be there for the majority of actions. That did not happen in UO or AC and for the most part in the pre-nge world of SWG.
More player politics - Players are the story and not, in my mind, in an artificial way. Their own motivations are driving their interactions with the world and not from a scripted NPC quest. - please, the extent of player motivation is "we want to attack someone, so we'll raid you all" "we want to camp this area for ourselves". The exception would be conflicts between. In UO, what was the reason you were ganking/being ganked? Look at eve, people pvp just because they WANT conflict, theres no greater reasoning behind it. Theres no need to pvp since theres no real gain or loss of any real importance.
Hey, if that's the limits of your thinking there's nothing I can do about that. I have in my time in UO seen involved plots and...well...roleplaying over the establishment of princdoms and ruling of areas. The "because I can" killing takes place in every game that allows pvp so in my mind isn't a valid point. It's going to happen if you let any players fight other players. It's the fact of actually having options and features available so that those who want to actually put a little art into their gameplay experience that I like in sandbox games and that themeparks don't offer. Your last line above describes themepark games to a "T" in my eyes. Sanbox games are more prone to have systems that give some cause and that create some sense of ownership to those ends.
Heres the thing, in every sandbox game everything you "do" is created by player motivations, but at the same time it's worthless. Theres no point to any of it. Player quests are fake, and are not part of the real world lore. Conflict is created for the sake of conflict.
No, everything you "do" isn't created by the players. That maybe in your definition of your sandbox, but most folks don't carry such an absolutist vision of the style. As to the second part of your paragrapgh I agree that it would be nice to dee some developers allow for player generated content to have some physical effect on the world. This area of game features is long overdue for a look at what potential it has.
Games will never be similar to DnD, where the sandbox playstyle is REAL, because the world ISN'T a real thing, and just by thinking something you change the world. You can't bring it over into games.
Never say never. Companies don't want to invest is the issue. It can be done and the technology is there now. Companies just don't want to hire the manpower it would take to pull it off. I'm not blaming, just pointing out the facts. They don't believe it has a good ROI. *shrug*
Dynamic story (AC did this really well).
I personally don't think that removing all those items you listed from WoW makes it anymore like UO than it already is. They're both MMOs. One works for your tastes and the other works for mine. I do think the genre has been done a severe injustice by focusing solely on one way of making them. A solid AAA company has yet to make a serious effort at a sandbox game since WoW. I think that's pretty much why some folks are upset or disappointed.
Tell me this, removing the things i stated, beyond player housing, whats the difference? There isn't any. Yet if you take UO, add quests, add more items, add a progression scale(which takes more owrk then a generalized strength)
There's no difference to you. Fine. You don't look through my eyes so you can't definitivly state there is none for me. Sorry. You're neither omnipotent or a telepath.
Here's the thing, even BEFORE wow, there were no serious sandbox attempts, there was AC, and UO, that's it, everything else has been indy, yet there was EQ, DAoC, and BEFORE wow, there was L2, CoH, FFXI, AO, phantasy star-, all the asian games. Which all aren't sandbox games.
Because before WoW the whole idea of the genre of MMOs was just getting started. The idea of Sandbox wasn't even forumlated then. It was after the onslaught of wow inspired themepark games that the connotations begain. And you do a good job at proving my point. There needs to be more serious efforts at this style. Having only one style does no good for the genre. It's been stagnate for a few years now. What some of you people seem to think is that that means to stop making themeparks entirely. Sorry, but I'm not that extremist in thought. I'm only suggesting that both types should receive serious effort. MMos for people who prefer to "just play a game" and MMOs for people prefer to "play in an online world that has the details and offers the breadth of occupations that a real world would have".
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
Read this Zorndorf:
Perhaps I could read all 65,000 pages of the game lore of WoW. I would not even have to suscribe to read the book.
Or I could create it myself in a sandbox world. True depth is not reading but doing.
I couldn't get past the controls, or I'd be there.
SKILL SYSTEM. Thats whats needed for players to create truely unique classes. The onus is off teh developers to create balance and on the players. We could al come up with 100 skills, including attacks and spells. Just give me a blank-slate and allow me to level 10 skills of my choice to 100 or 20 skills of my choice to 50.
There'd be so much diversity it would make your head spin, and take imbalance off the table since it becomes a moot point; truely unique.
I agree. And there is no true sand-box game as I stated; the concept is cool, but hybrids are only going to be successful I beleive since the majority of the market dont want to build everything from scratch like in A Tale in the Desert. If that wasnt the case, that game and the upcoming AfterWorld would be huge hits.
I always go back to Eve Online when I need a break from grinding, cookie-cutter character classes and inept twinks. If there was a fantasy version of Eve as well as the sci-fi, I'd marry it.
True depth is a strike of genious, not some ungrown kid who thinks he owns the world.
True masterpieces are not created by spoiled video game kids.
So the 65.000 pages of Lore are there to supplement the enjoyment of the world you want to live and play in.
Not even talking of the books (who aren't even included in those 65.000 pages).
At least I am part of that world, just as good (or even better) as I was part of D&D paper and pencil.
Think about it - silly sandbox dreamers.
I'll take a ride on my selfmade motorbike after I landed with my self made helicopter.
It seems like you mixing volume with depth. The 65,000 page compendium of which you speak truly pails in comparison with LOTR, yet you pay it more homage because it is (supposedly) longer.
But I will not doubt that you enjoy your time reading and roleplaying a character in that setting. But have no doubts that there are people who would prefer a sandbox. I enjoy developing my own modes of transportation, not silly motorbikes and helicopters.
Peace my friend. Enjoy your game. I will search and strive for a game that I enjoy. No need for you to interfere here.
Very well said, OP
This is true about almost all mmorpgs today, Especially the Free 2 play mmo industry.
holy shit i just read my own thoughts!
But then again, i'm also a remnant of the last millenia, it's something with us that don't enjoy the new casual MMOs eh?
you're right !However, we always of lots of sorries for things or for persons.So what? why not pay more time more attention to them?hey~guy~relax yourself
I'm surprised that people are actually pissed off by threads like this. If you enjoy the current crop of MMOs, why would you even care? You have at least a few options out there that you could be playing, rather than hangin on the forums.
MMO fans are NEVER going to agree on one type of MMO.
and, how exactly does that allow me to conquer territory and build my own city in wow?
how does that allow me to have great armor (tier 1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/etc) and not essentially look like all the other characters who have progressed as far as i have?
how does that allow me to be a rogue, who has some buffing/healing type powers, along with a couple of fireball type attacks, and the ability to use a shield, while commanding my vicious attack marmosets? oh yeah, wow is the cookie cutter class/build game, right?
so where um, in all that lore, prior to tbc, were all the blue space aliens? or is tbc wow's version of the movie, Highlander 2?
the op (original post) lamented that all these games are incredibly linear and everyone is a clone, and to summarize, the gameplay/experience is simply craptastic.
just because wow has millions, that does not mean any game copying wow will get those numbers. that's something these people need to learn... wow had YEARS of blizznet, blizznet kiddies, blizznet players that grew up with blizznet and were now adults... cyber cafes and places where starcraft is STILL being played fanatically.... blizzard north had a MASSIVE following before WoW was released.
swg could have easily had those numbers at release.... if the people making that game had put in the effort that the blizzard north team had put into creating WoW.
for the record, i don't believe anyone associated with blizzard north, still works at blizzard.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
I don't think anyone is pissed off by a thread like this so much as they're bored of the subject and tired of the endless QQ'ing from the so-called sandbox purists. Every thread like this is the same, and boils down to someone whining and bitching about how pretty much every game out there isn't allowing them to be the Epic Godlike Uber-hero they want to be, where every single thing they do affects and changes the world, and where the NPC's react to their every adventure telling them how great they are.
your analogies are flawed, we hate mmorpg devs for not make good MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER ROLE PLAYING GAMES! We do NOT WANT single player online action games!
Too bad you and your type are not right. You are not important, and just because you like that type of mmo, it's not your right/responsibility, or even justifiable to call what a mmorpg is.
His analogy is right. That's exactly what you are asking. If you start defining mmos based on "no levels/classes" "No quests" etc etc, then what exactly is a mmorpg? IT's a empty world with developer creation tools. Because if a developer adds anything for players to do, it's no longer sandbox in your opinion is it?
the action game thing is kindof over the top, and no classes/levels do not make a game a NON rpg, instead, it reinforces the "rpgness" of a game... but they aren't massively multiplayer most importantly, you can't tell me with a straight face that Wow (with a completely soloable 1-70 and instanced dungeons and instanced battlefields) is actually an mmo, neither can you say WAR (with its instanced pvp grind) is an mmo.
wow is a mmo.
So was Ultima Online when it launched and it had no levels and no quests as they are commonly done today in the follow the yellow brick road to each quest hub method. And it didn't have an empty feel because it didn't use that quest method. Developer content doesn't have to rely on the current crutch of quests like they do. Games like UO (no levels) and AC (had levels but didn't rely on them for progression) proved that.
Just saying that you don't have to have levels or quests (as they are done today) in order not to have an "empty world".
Let me ask you this.
You got freedom in your sandbox. what are you doing?
Killing monsters
Killing Players
Crafting items
That's it. The difference is, you can choose when to go do it, and where.
I never said AC or UO aren't mmos. But let me state this.
If you take world of warcraft and
Remove Quests
Remove levels
Remove item progression
Remove Instances
Remove Battlegrounds
Remove faction alignment at creation
Remove classes and just let everyone access any of the talent trees(with spells that go along with the ones they want)
And how does it differ from UO?
It doesn't.
Don't you think it's odd that you strip tons of content and actual... stuff from wow, and it resembles a sandbox? There's a reason for that. Because sandbox are empty games that players make fake content for.
So um, eve online has no content, other than player-made fake content?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
I don't think anyone is pissed off by a thread like this so much as they're bored of the subject and tired of the endless QQ'ing from the so-called sandbox purists. Every thread like this is the same, and boils down to someone whining and bitching about how pretty much every game out there isn't allowing them to be the Epic Godlike Uber-hero they want to be, where every single thing they do affects and changes the world, and where the NPC's react to their every adventure telling them how great they are.
LOL.. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about at all. The whole point of what we want is NOT to be the hero, just to be an average joe. /sigh, you come here and whine about sandbox people and don't even know what you are talking about.
If you don't like these threads, it's as easy as not looking at them.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
your analogies are flawed, we hate mmorpg devs for not make good MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER ROLE PLAYING GAMES! We do NOT WANT single player online action games!
Too bad you and your type are not right. You are not important, and just because you like that type of mmo, it's not your right/responsibility, or even justifiable to call what a mmorpg is.
His analogy is right. That's exactly what you are asking. If you start defining mmos based on "no levels/classes" "No quests" etc etc, then what exactly is a mmorpg? IT's a empty world with developer creation tools. Because if a developer adds anything for players to do, it's no longer sandbox in your opinion is it?
the action game thing is kindof over the top, and no classes/levels do not make a game a NON rpg, instead, it reinforces the "rpgness" of a game... but they aren't massively multiplayer most importantly, you can't tell me with a straight face that Wow (with a completely soloable 1-70 and instanced dungeons and instanced battlefields) is actually an mmo, neither can you say WAR (with its instanced pvp grind) is an mmo.
wow is a mmo.
So was Ultima Online when it launched and it had no levels and no quests as they are commonly done today in the follow the yellow brick road to each quest hub method. And it didn't have an empty feel because it didn't use that quest method. Developer content doesn't have to rely on the current crutch of quests like they do. Games like UO (no levels) and AC (had levels but didn't rely on them for progression) proved that.
Just saying that you don't have to have levels or quests (as they are done today) in order not to have an "empty world".
Let me ask you this.
You got freedom in your sandbox. what are you doing?
Killing monsters
Killing Players
Crafting items
That's it. The difference is, you can choose when to go do it, and where.
I never said AC or UO aren't mmos. But let me state this.
If you take world of warcraft and
Remove Quests
Remove levels
Remove item progression
Remove Instances
Remove Battlegrounds
Remove faction alignment at creation
Remove classes and just let everyone access any of the talent trees(with spells that go along with the ones they want)
And how does it differ from UO?
It doesn't.
Don't you think it's odd that you strip tons of content and actual... stuff from wow, and it resembles a sandbox? There's a reason for that. Because sandbox are empty games that players make fake content for.
So um, eve online has no content, other than player-made fake content?
Don't even bother arguing with Bladin. He doesn't understand the appeal of a sandbox. Choices scare him. Creating our own content is just insane. He can't imagine an MMO world where you aren't a class a developer designs for you and you don't respawn unscathed 15 seconds after you die, and nothing you say or do will ever change his linear little heart.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
Good old table top looks mighty fun to me ATM.....
Well said OP!
That doesn't make a damn bit of sense. If you just want to be an average Joe, then why the hell would you spend $50 on a game box and pay $15 a month in subscription fees? That's stupid. Just go outside and live a normal life.
These games are about an escape from the normal. They're entertainment, and a way to unwind after a long day of work and school. Who the hell wants to just be a normal Joe in an MMO?
That doesn't make a damn bit of sense. If you just want to be an average Joe, then why the hell would you spend $50 on a game box and pay $15 a month in subscription fees? That's stupid. Just go outside and live a normal life.
These games are about an escape from the normal. They're entertainment, and a way to unwind after a long day of work and school. Who the hell wants to just be a normal Joe in an MMO?
LOL! Good point. Why QQ for the power of a sandbox only to be an average joe? You know you want to be god like creatures that thirst for griefing players above all. E-Peen Xtremeism to the fullest. Average Joe my ass!
In this box, only one story can be told.....Grief! That story has a small following whether you like it or not.