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When you say it takes skill and not gear...really?
Blackwell99
Member Posts: 352
Im always reading posts about how AoC is skill-based--but I don't see it?
I see it as procedure based, or perhaps know-how based but to call it skill based is really "out-there" (in AoC you are required to hit several arrow keys in order to perform a special attack or trigger an effect, if you're melee, not the case with spells-why not spells? I have no idea FC is all over the place)
Some games are skill based though, I would suggest that the classic games from the 80's are truly skill based and if you ever watched a skilled player play a game like Donkey Kong, or Centipede you know that you need a ridiculous amount of practice and discipline with what's involved in achieving , or at least lasting even an hour on those games., there is no way that you (or most players) could every do what those players do.
So now you'll tell me that your level 30 ranger who killed 2 level 80 Conquerors, but again, i would say that Ranger was more familiar with the procedure rather than what I consider skill.
For example, if you take a game (i'll try to use something international) like golf. You may know how to hold the club, you may know how to swing the club, (the depth of AoC doesn't go past this point) but that doesn't mean you have skill....but golf is a skillful game. If you are Vijay Singh, you definitely have skill because you can do what most people can't with the same golf club that you have. That's skill.
I keep hearing people refer to AoC as a skill based game..."Skill over Gear ," they say. Skill-based combat has been FC's biggest marketing ploy since this game's conception. At best, they have grasped for the illusion of skill.
But we all know that FC is back paddling this poor decision. They are starting to see that the game itself is not making sense within this format.-The introduction PvP xp to get gear is an example of this.
You see, in a mmorpg it doesn't make sense. Because without a system of gaining power over your foes it takes the common objective out of mmorpg's that have made a large percentage of the genre successful. In other words, it's the staple of mmorpgs. Even back in the days where people used pencils and papers and dice, it was all about getting lucky and becoming an elite war machine. Of course even then, in many ways took more sound judgment to play---because if you died, you had to rip you character sheet up. Some of the people who had to do that were saying good bye to characters whose RL play time were measured in years.
My point is this: When people tell you AoC is skill based--it is merely a marketing ploy. It's just one that they happened to be naive enough to fall for.
The combat system in AoC is simply a failed experiement.
Comments
Another pile of illogical spam
So basically, what you are saying is knowing how to play is not part of a skill? Lemme give you an example: who would you say is skilled basketball player? The nr.1 athlete without basketball knowledge or a decent athlete that knows how to play basketball. Who is skilled here? I would pick the second one, since knowing how to move, where to move and why to move/how to jump, etc. is all part of a skill.
The same is in this game. Why in the god's name would you say that knowing how to play is not a skill? What is a skill than?
That said- moving, jumping, etc. (so stuff you would, I persume call skill) is very important part of every AoC fight. Even that important that most of best AoC players think that stamina is more important when it comes to pvp fights than hp.
And of course, like I am used to websters agrees with me:
Skill
2 a: the ability to use one's knowledge effectively and readily in execution or performance b: dexterity or coordination especially in the execution of learned physical tasks
3: a learned power of doing something competently : a developed aptitude or ability <language skills>
Veni vidi vici
Im not seeing your point
A 5 year old child can play basetball--they can learn the rules, and dribble but that is know-how, not skill. Webster doesn't agree with you--you are only grasping in the most vague way possible.
Knowledge is not the definition of skill, it is only a building block. True you can't have skill without knowledge--but you can have knowledge without skill. EG you may know how to drive a car, but that doesn't mean you are Jackie Stewart. AoC doesn't allow for that kind of skill--they just want you to believe that--which you do. Aoc doesn't require a skill-set that reaches beyond any boundaries that a 11 year old child couldn't master.
In AoC all the moving and jumping around that you are talking about is knowledge--although if you feel it's skill...well what can i tell you
By your definition of skill ...then it takes no more of it than you'd find in WoW or any other PvP mmorpg--period. That's the thing....that's why it was simply a marketing ploy. (one i can see you've ate up)
EDIT--just additional thought here:
Im not in total disagreement with you, but if you want to go by Dictionary definitions, then these are also skills:
Going to bed on time
Doing dishes
Walking the Dog
Making a bowl of cereal
-Yet i doubt you'd put these items on your resume.
-But when FC had marketed it as Skill over Gear--you know that they were suggesting something much more than it is.
eh? my post got deleted?
ok I guess only constructive replies are allowed so let me tell you in one sentence why it was marketed as a skill based and not item-based game:
"Because the items have much less of an effect on stats than in rival mmorpgs."
There we go, nice and easy. Now go come up with another troll. Good luck.
Having played AoC and pretty much every MMO on the market, I would say that AoC is in no way a skill-based game. Like most games, gear makes or breaks you. While there is a more involved procedure for executing attacks (instead of just hit button; hit button, and then match a couple of arrows, unless you play a caster, in which case this is irrelevant).
How hard you hit, how much damage you take, is still based upon your equipment and very little else, as AoC lacks stat customization and instead only has the "talent tree" aspect. While these trees do make a difference, 90% of what each class does or doesn't do is based on what the class is, and there's only a few cookie cutter builds per class.
Reading a FAQ on what to put your points in is not skill.
Matching arrows can be called skill, with a stretch, but only applies to 'some' classes in the game.
True test of whether or not gear is important? Strip your character naked and try to kill something that you were just killing fully equipped. In AoC, this test fails.
In -some- games gear is less important? But AoC is not one of them.
Gaming? That's not gaming!
That's just people sat 'round in costumes drinking...
How is that skill?
Either there is gear that will boost stats-or their isn't (the gear may add lower stats but it's all relevant to the other gear in AoC)--they have gear that adds stats, just like any other MMORPG.
Where's the skill?
Answer: there is none, just the gullible.
The word "skill" when used to talk about playing an mmo is just plain dumb. God help you if that is your "skill". Pick up a paintbrush, a basketball, apply yourself to a job. Find some REAL "skill".
When I said i had "time", i meant virtual time, i got no RL "time" for you.
Skill based, based on skill and not depent solely upon skill, unless I'm wrong and it's mutually exclusive, though I don't remember my WOW character's epics playing the game for me, they just made it a hell of a lot easier. That being said AOC is more skill based then WOW, what little that counts for.
"Horse eating... a fire hydrant... the hell?" - Dan
How is that skill?
Either there is gear that's boost stats-or their isn't (the gear may add lower stats but it's all relevant to the other gear in AoC)--they have gear that adds stats, just like any other MMORPG.
Where's the skill?
Answer: there is none, just the gullible.
No.
Answer: Because adding lower stats means that there is a more limited possible range between the stats of any two players. Therefore the situation is closer to the one you described here:
"If you are Vijay Singh, you definitely have skill because you can do what most people can't with the same golf club that you have. That's skill."
How is that skill?
Either there is gear that's boost stats-or their isn't (the gear may add lower stats but it's all relevant to the other gear in AoC)--they have gear that adds stats, just like any other MMORPG.
Where's the skill?
Answer: there is none, just the gullible.
No.
Answer: Because adding lower stats means that there is a more limited possible range between the stats of any two players. Therefore the situation is closer to the one you described here:
"If you are Vijay Singh, you definitely have skill because you can do what most people can't with the same golf club that you have. That's skill."
Last I checked Vijay Singh doesn't have a +.07% magical club of chipping.
What Im saying is people in WoW aren't playing players in AoC
So when I said gear is relevant to AoC--they can assign the low numbers to whatever, but it's relevant in the world of AoC.
A guy who has a sword that is +0.5% to damage in AoC is going to get owned by a guy with +2% damage on his sword (all things being equal). It's low in numbers compared to WoW, but in the world of AoC, he's just as uber as someone with a high end sword in WoW--it's all relevant to the gear in AoC. You either have stats or you don't. But then of course a ToS walks by and owns everybody by hitting for 3.5k gear or no gear (and doesn't have to play a minigame of Dance,Dance Revolution with his fingers before he does it-lol)
How is that skill?
Either there is gear that's boost stats-or their isn't (the gear may add lower stats but it's all relevant to the other gear in AoC)--they have gear that adds stats, just like any other MMORPG.
Where's the skill?
Answer: there is none, just the gullible.
No.
Answer: Because adding lower stats means that there is a more limited possible range between the stats of any two players. Therefore the situation is closer to the one you described here:
"If you are Vijay Singh, you definitely have skill because you can do what most people can't with the same golf club that you have. That's skill."
Last I checked Vijay Singh doesn't have a +.07% magical club of chipping.
What Im saying is people in WoW aren't playing players in AoC
So when I said gear is relevant to AoC--they can assign the low numbers to whatever, but it's relevant in the world of AoC.
A guy who has a sword that is +0.5% to damage in AoC is going to get owned by a guy with +2% damage on his sword (all things being equal). It's low in numbers compared to WoW, but in the world of AoC, he's just as uber as someone with a high end sword in WoW--it's all relevant to the gear in AoC. You either have stats or you don't. But then of course a ToS walks by and owns everybody by hitting for 3.5k gear or no gear (and doesn't have to play a minigame of Dance,Dance Revolution with his fingers before he does it-lol)
hahaha well I guess you have played it then - gotta agree with you ToS is OP
But I mean although the stats are relative to the game, the difference between a naked player and one with the best gear is smaller than in other more item-based games. At least I don't think it's fair to say funcom is lying if they say it's skill-based.
And personally I do find the combat system is more free and responsive than in other real-time combat system I've played in other rpgs. I'm not talking about the combat system, just flexibility of movement and general control.
I disagree, there is alot of player skill in aoc combat, but only the mele combat so player skill only comes into mele vs mele fights really. even then its still not like a total twitch game, but say a really good lvl 60 lotus assassin I used to know could solo circle strafe own virtually any lvl 80 1 v 1.
the game has change alot since then and the game director wants to change itemisation, which sounds like it could be making you more gear dependant taking out alot of the skill. but even before the huge gem nerf I still take on some gemmed classes naked 1v1.
My blog:
Human skills in online games no matter it being a pure fps, pure MMO or a mix of both relies on 2 things, your knowledge of your class/profession and your way to react to different situation.
In counter strike you will not win by shooting full out, you win by being the fastest to react and the one that know's your weapon and how to use it the best. In AoC each fight you do is different, you will find some similar fights, but majority of players will change tactics on the go to be able to beat you. As a player you need to know what to do, when to do it and be able to do it and counter his attack. If you succeeds in doing this you are better then your opponent, you have more skill then him.
Comparing WoW and AoC you will find a huge differenece in the gear and what it means for your class. Try to fight a opponent in full Season 4 arena gear with all his resilience maxed and so on, while you have Season 1 gear. WoW boils down to gear vs gear, once you have the same gear as the opponent, skills starts to matter. In AoC a pvp level 5 does have advantages over you a PvP level 0, but you can still beat him. You have to outsmart him, you have to use all your skills, but beating him isn't impossible. For a season 1 geared to beat a season 4 geared person in WoW you have to be very skilled to stand a chance. resilience removes that much crit damage and dot damage that you cannopt rely on spiking him down. And this is why AoC is a skill>gear game, gear does help, but it isn't everything.
Playing: Battlefield - Bad company (Xbox360) Arma2, DFO (PC)
On my radar: TSW, MO
MMO's played: SWG (pre cu/cu), WoW, AoC, WAR, DFO, Planetside
MMO's that I have tested: Lotro, L2, Aion, Ryzom
Pretty sure the argument is that Age of Conan relies on Skill (trees) AKA Feats, rather than gear because the stats on gear are pretty meh...though thats a poor design decision IMO as it demotivates players from farming the few end game encounters.
If you are talking about player skill, you are wrong as AoC probably takes less skill than other MMOs.
Skill in video games is about reaction and strategy.
***********************************
REACTION: Thesis - Age of Conan mitigates any chance of reaction in multiple ways.
AoC was supposed to have a revolutionary combat system, however this combat system rewards guessing, guessing is a taboo or antithesis to reaction.
Examples of poor game design:
Shielding: players can not see other player's shields to react to them - however most combos of a given class end at a specific shield point, or at least the most damaging combo....so players can put 2 or 3 shields to that direction....that is not skill nor strategy as everyone knows or should know this as it has been posted ad nauseam.
Blocking: Functionality removed due to a poor caster Vs. melee stamina mechanic....though sprinting still favors casters, kiting FTW.
Combos: Though this system was tweeked it still removes reaction from the "Player Skill" equation as from the instant you launch a combo the next two commands are given and there is an artificial delay between inputs. Basically, go play VF 5 or any combo fighter game and imagine if it took 4+ seconds from the moment you started inputting commands until the time they went off....that would be lag conditions and they would be unbarable for anyone.
Also, the combo system for melees removes the number of decisions used per 10 second intervals. Generaly, in any game a player will cycle through her best burst damage moves and throw in utility/stun abilities as needed. Here, rather than choose another ability, we play the simmon says game.
Though, it can be argued that the "Player skill" is performed by landing the combo finisher on the opponent, that is a pretty silly request. Everyone knows about "Playing To Win". Well if two players are playing to win they will be circle straffing and jousting so that finishers will rarly if ever land.....though once again do to poor game mechanics diffrent melee classes have diffrent effective hit areas....which will make a bigger impact than player skill in the long run, actualy the class balance or lack of...will make a bigger impact than any player skill. Also, please remember most skilled MMO players left do to a lack of endgame and gear progression.....there may be some skilled player with 4 level 80s who is tuffing it out, but the vast majority of skilled players that I have encountered will stop playing the moment they can't progress any further....plus we all watched the uber guilds depart to strenghten this argument.
*****************************************
STRATEGY:
As stated before the core game mechanics are pretty flawed in regards to shielding, blocking, the evasions are marginal, and the combo system strategy would be pretty silly as there is no way to predict where your opponent will be when it finishes w/o!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ah yes! Stuns and Instant gibs........If you jump an unaware opponent they can be stunned and instant gibbed due to damage being scalled for PvE not PvP, that is the strategy that works in this game.
Defencive Strategy? If you are not stuned and instant gibbed.....you can Sprint off and hide, chug health pots, or circle strafe and hide, or stun and instant gib them.
*************************************************
Group and evaluation:
AoC's PvP system was tacked on and does not give a good indication of how well a player or group performs. In fact it is easier to progress in the PvP system if one starts at a lower level and then ganks higher up players than starting with a level 80 main. (which shows how stupid this reverse gank system is).
Funcom has reviewed all of its assets relevant for
impairment testing. This process has led to
recognition of an impairment loss of around
3,1 MUSD for Age of Conan due to a decrease in
numbers of subscribers for the game. Funcom Q4 10 report.
http://forums.ageofconan.com/showpost.php?p=2926123&postcount=7 500 mains/alts on Tyranny in past 30 days - instead of merge servers let's open a new PvP server, again! http://forums-eu.ageofconan.com/showthread.php?t=106427
Ah was going to say: WoW (post 2k) and Guildwar's arenas played competively would be more skill than anything in AoC because it skims out the bad players.
It's not so much about gear as any player with reasonable skill should be able to make it close to the top of either bracket. I took a poorly geared hunter (broken class) past 2k in all WoW brackets season 1...so it wasn't so much about gear until the very end as most players 95%ish + are so bad the probably have to use the arrow keys to keep you on the screen.
Funcom has reviewed all of its assets relevant for
impairment testing. This process has led to
recognition of an impairment loss of around
3,1 MUSD for Age of Conan due to a decrease in
numbers of subscribers for the game. Funcom Q4 10 report.
http://forums.ageofconan.com/showpost.php?p=2926123&postcount=7 500 mains/alts on Tyranny in past 30 days - instead of merge servers let's open a new PvP server, again! http://forums-eu.ageofconan.com/showthread.php?t=106427
AoC used to be semi-skill based, as in if you din't fumble and the other guy did you win, but with PVP-gear and levels now and the imbalanced classes, "skill" has gone down the drain a bit and will further when the item redux gets done and makes the game almost totally gear based.
'skill to play' in a mainstream mmo is always hype. If it really and truly took skill to play, how many would enjoy it? For every hardcore player willing to put in the effort AND actually had the skill to play, there'd be thousands upon thousands who wouldn't want to put in the effort OR simply didn't have the skill. Remember for a mainstream mmo its about subscription numbers.
The original combat system for AoC was much much more complicated than the one that made it into release. As per one of the devs the combat system was deliberately simplified to be able to work on a console controller.
MMO publishers want people to play their game, not walk away frustrated. So they make it easy, but SAY its hard.
this, I agree with. The whole notion of "skill" in any type of video game is a little hyperbolic.
It's a proven historical fact that beer saved humankind.
this, I agree with. The whole notion of "skill" in any type of video game is a little hyperbolic.
Skill in a video game is very much present, if you play RTS games and you get owned by your opponent it is because he is more skilled then you are. I don't think you can say that skills in games are a specific thing, it's a mixture of different things. To be good in for example Counterstrike you need to be able to react to what happens fast, you need to know what to do and execute your plan you also need to know how your weapon best can be used. All of this combined is being skilled, you can have all the knowledge in the world and still suck if you are not able to react fast enough. Skill in a game can be trained just as in real life, by doing it more and more you get better and better. Look at the guys who drives Formula 1 cars, they wasn't born with good driving skills, they were born with being able to think and act quick and the skill with the car has become better as they practise. They are by nature better then others as their ability to do the right thing is better then others. basketball players isn't instantly good because they are taller then others, it does help being taller, but they still have to work on teamwork, and have a body that can stand all the running and playing. You won't find a 2,5m tall fat guy being awesome in basketball just because he is tall, his weight would make him less agile and other players could easy outrun him.
A lot of the so called "skills" in games can easy be transferred to real life. A RTS player can be a good tactician in the military as he would understand the basics of planning ahead, and being able to react to things that happens. People playing mmorpg's and leading huge guild successfully most likely will be able to do a leadership role in a company perfectly as they know the basics of what being a leader means.
Playing: Battlefield - Bad company (Xbox360) Arma2, DFO (PC)
On my radar: TSW, MO
MMO's played: SWG (pre cu/cu), WoW, AoC, WAR, DFO, Planetside
MMO's that I have tested: Lotro, L2, Aion, Ryzom
Maybe you should play the game and understand the mechanics prior to posting.
Circle straffing > all..........http://forums.ageofconan.com/showthread.php?t=183083 Also in this game do to hit boxes it can also prolong fights for a long time, making it prety random as who is landing hits, and taking skill away, but that is a product of poor design.
I'm willing to bet most the players with any skill moved on due to a lack of any PvP focus, PvP is still an after thought, and broken classes atrelease, balance is still way off, or with their raiding guilds who bounced en mass because of the poor endgame pve. (It's widely accepted that AoC is a super casual game because there is not enough content to satisfy players that play often aside from altOholics - the players that play a lot are usually the ones taking the time to master the game and their class.)
FPS players? please the game was not designed for PvP, circle strafing can mitigate all hits and eventually let you stealth to stop combat if you are losing or chug pots or sprint away....in all MMOs the idea was to get behind the opponent for unmitigated hits and blast of instants..........in this you have no idea where you will be in 4 seconds so luck removes the skill.
The combat system was not designed for PvP as no PvP was tested in this game prior to launch, and the classes were thrown together at the last minute, the combat system was redone because it was to hard prior to launch and then dumbed down further for the X box 360 port, and the entire system is still gimmicky at best.
The biggest issue with AoC was not bugs or technical issues but the lack of focus when developing the game, as it seems core/game Mechanics, Classes, PvE, Raiding, and PvP were all just thrown in and not tested so much with each other, that is why nothing realy gels to this day.
From what I gether from fans, this is an Age of Conan RP game, not so much PvE or PvP........less your a necro in scenarios.......it's also an alt 'O holic game but wouldn't the other MMO's with 10 times the leveling content and non linear levels be better for that?
***************
There is skill in video games and reaction time and strategy are widely accepted as the measures of it..this game removes them. Whenever there is competition, skill is required.
*****************
In Warcraft you have some of X class that are struggling at the 1300 brackets and others that are ranked 1-5 in the battle group. MMOs have random number generators, but a bad player won't end up top...heck going up the lader you can see skill rise in any game.
In halo 3 you have loads of players stuck in the 20s of true skill, while some manage to get to get to 50 in multiple gametypes.
In DoA 4,aside from LDing, you have rooms full of D's and F's but the people who stuck with it and learned and were good can achieve S or S+.
Funcom has reviewed all of its assets relevant for
impairment testing. This process has led to
recognition of an impairment loss of around
3,1 MUSD for Age of Conan due to a decrease in
numbers of subscribers for the game. Funcom Q4 10 report.
http://forums.ageofconan.com/showpost.php?p=2926123&postcount=7 500 mains/alts on Tyranny in past 30 days - instead of merge servers let's open a new PvP server, again! http://forums-eu.ageofconan.com/showthread.php?t=106427
again in english and in quotes ...
Fixed, aside from the confusion about the ommited subject and action verb. For speaking and trolling the prepositional phrase is fine but it's often times taboo in formal English and the preposition should be followed by the object being modified.
Funcom has reviewed all of its assets relevant for
impairment testing. This process has led to
recognition of an impairment loss of around
3,1 MUSD for Age of Conan due to a decrease in
numbers of subscribers for the game. Funcom Q4 10 report.
http://forums.ageofconan.com/showpost.php?p=2926123&postcount=7 500 mains/alts on Tyranny in past 30 days - instead of merge servers let's open a new PvP server, again! http://forums-eu.ageofconan.com/showthread.php?t=106427
No mate, that was not my intention. It is just post above is a mess and would be much nicer with quotes and shit - I cannot read it. Well I could, but why would I spend extra time arranging it if it's yours. So if you can please correct it do so. (so we can continue this debate)
I don't diasgree with you about some games that require skill--I maintain the games that require the most skill are games from the 1980s.
But as for WoW and PvP arena--i would say it's more of a group build that counts, and the top teams usually have the same builds with "key" classes. And they all have the best equipment for their class. Where AoC can't meet that standard is:
Stats are broken
Gems are broken
Classes are unbalanced-AoC arenas would consist of all ToS's-until the next patch...then who knows what will the next OP class)
(...and of course there is no arena-type tourney, but if there was it wouldn't work)
Comp had a bit to do with it, but I made it up top with a hunter in S1 and no matter what the comp until the top 20-100 depending on bracket...there was a noticeable lack of skill/ (organization in the 5s) until past 1900-2k....and yes then you would see the same make ups but even then they would play differently.
I always remonise about those games where you only had a finite amount of lives, mario, contra, etc.
Though the hardest MMO I have played so far for me personally, and probably the hardest MMO to date, usually required one button....a monk raid puller in EQ and Feign Death.
Funcom has reviewed all of its assets relevant for
impairment testing. This process has led to
recognition of an impairment loss of around
3,1 MUSD for Age of Conan due to a decrease in
numbers of subscribers for the game. Funcom Q4 10 report.
http://forums.ageofconan.com/showpost.php?p=2926123&postcount=7 500 mains/alts on Tyranny in past 30 days - instead of merge servers let's open a new PvP server, again! http://forums-eu.ageofconan.com/showthread.php?t=106427