I can safely ignore all of your succeeding posts now.
To be fair, he does have a point (sort of).
You can't blame an investor for only backing mainstream projects. They aren't altruistic crusaders for innovation and design, they're just businessmen who see percentages and profit margins. Hence, if the majority of MMO gamers favour a particular type of game .. this is the type of game that will attract investment rather than other, niche games.
So, one could say that we gamers are the ones that perpetuate the lack of innovation in the genre. If a huge percentage of gamers quit their theme-park games in favour of sandbox games, then I would bet heavily on the next AAA budgeted MMO with established IP being a sandbox.
But that's investors, not developers.
Blaming gamers for crappy programming, bugs and broken features .. that's just silly.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Having been in the MMO Developer shoes, I can honestly say there's tugs from 3 different sides during Development: 1) The gamers:
We, as gamers, are a fickled bunch. My game will never work if it's not full loot open PvP, with carebear ready content, destructable buildings but not for everybody, ground can be dug into that can trap people but can't trap people, phenominal AI that would get me a job at the DoD but nothing hard so people can actually compete against it, and FPS style twitch combat that can be played with one hand so it's easier for people. Some things don't mix, and no 2 gamers really seem to want the same thing. 2a) The investors:
They (and, coincidentally, me) as an investor are ALSO a fickled bunch... we're quite interested in the business portion, time tables, and promises met to us. Never once have I met an investor who wanted less then 300%... it's just not heard of for the amount of money they're going to sink in.
When you reach 100% of the money they're willing to sink in, their hand moves to a big red button that says "Release Window"... they care less what's being released, and more about the release itself.
Investors don't just write a 10 million dollar check either, if any game company tells you they do, they're lying... they write you a check for a few months at a time... max. And they check up on you regularly, you're a business they own a HUGE stake in, they're not going to let you go unchecked... and chances are they've done their research, know what games out there sold approximately how much, and use that to garner what they should get. 2b) The Publisher:
Much like Investors, publishers string you along for the alotted amount. Unlike Investors, Publishers don't have a personal vested interest in a company, and will gladly pull the plug before reaching for that great "Release Window" button... the only thing worse then releasing a buggy game, is NOT to release for an Investor... but a Publisher feels it's personal status is on the line.
If your studio is sizely (and expensive) enough, you'll probably get a Publisher appointed Producer (director... management type...)... he's part of the studio, but he's an embedded spy for the Publisher who sends weekly updates to the central office. If the studio goes under, he'll get to keep his job... just with somebody else. 3) Developers:
Anybody who thinks that Developers don't fight amongst themselves, or work like a well oiled clock/watch, is deluded. Never have I seen a studio before where there isn't a segregation between the developers who WANT to make a game, and developers where it's just a job. Developers who want to make a game are passionate, but they're equally passionate about their ideas and trying to get them into the game... this ultimately clashes with the Developers who feel it's just a job. At the root of the problem though is management... Management wants to make sure the people in Party 2(A and are paid back, happy, smiling, and continue writing checks. They will start to muffle cries and information from any developer that could get into the way of that goal. And the big fixers, the passionate ones (we're all OCD), will be the first ones to get the axe when crap hits the fan or there needs to be budget cuts in order to extend the life of the studio.
Between those 3 things? It's a wonder how games get released at all! I've worked in a studio so topheavy with artists that you figured the programming was done offsite. IT WAS! Why? Because the investors can see and understand art, they can't see and understand code. And when the budget cuts came along, the first to get cut was design, then programming, then art... so all those bugs, or features, never had a chance.
for "tldr" people: Are gamers to blame? Yes.
Are gamers soley to blame? Not really, although if gamers keep buying crappy games I guess it can come back around.
Should gamers blame developers particularly? Not neccessarily... most Dev's you might talk to on a Forum or chat are really just pawns in a greater chess board.
Have you millions of money to produce such a game? No?
Thanks.
I don't have millions of money to produce a game.
I think things will change a bit as developers start to use engines more, and not make a game engine from scratch everytime they make a game.
What happens, is they start with a plan and a budget, and a game design. Then they start making the engine, and by the time they are ready to start actually making game content, they go, oh crap, we are almost out of moneys! We better get some sort of game out there!
Have you millions of money to produce such a game? No?
Thanks.
I don't have millions of money to produce a game.
I think things will change a bit as developers start to use engines more, and not make a game engine from scratch everytime they make a game.
What happens, is they start with a plan and a budget, and a game design. Then they start making the engine, and by the time they are ready to start actually making game content, they go, oh crap, we are almost out of moneys! We better get some sort of game out there!
It's been my experience that the opposite is true. After leasing an engine, your programmers have to spend time learning in the ins and outs of it.
All leasing an engine does is give you a preprogrammed set of tools. Most programmers I've worked with prefer to create their own technology... it's always the tools that are lacking though in homebrew engines and platforms.
Leasing other people's technology is often a shortcut that costs you MORE in the long run. Lots of studios are learning this the hard way, unfortunately.
- CaesarsGhost
Lead Gameplay and Gameworld Designer for a yet unnamed MMO Title. "When people tell me designing a game is easy, I try to get them to design a board game. Most people don't last 5 minutes, the rest rarely last more then a day. The final few realize it's neither fun nor easy."
Developers include the publishers (which are the typical investors) too. We didn't use the term programmers or designers or artists.
Anyone involved during the development of the game can be considered a developer. Even those involved in PR and Marketing. The only people I wouldn't consider devs are the GMs and customer service staff.
My Maths is simple,the more they(mmo) cost,they crappier they are getting.So I blame the devs,coders and animators,in other word...The Whole Team + the End User who pre order a product they have not seen as if there's no tomorrow.
In the land of Predators,the lion does not fear the jackals...
Have you millions of money to produce such a game? No?
Thanks.
I don't have millions of money to produce a game.
I think things will change a bit as developers start to use engines more, and not make a game engine from scratch everytime they make a game.
What happens, is they start with a plan and a budget, and a game design. Then they start making the engine, and by the time they are ready to start actually making game content, they go, oh crap, we are almost out of moneys! We better get some sort of game out there!
It's been my experience that the opposite is true. After leasing an engine, your programmers have to spend time learning in the ins and outs of it.
All leasing an engine does is give you a preprogrammed set of tools. Most programmers I've worked with prefer to create their own technology... it's always the tools that are lacking though in homebrew engines and platforms.
Leasing other people's technology is often a shortcut that costs you MORE in the long run. Lots of studios are learning this the hard way, unfortunately.
The problems that arise arent because they are using the engine without experence. They would go with an engine that their devs have pervious exp with and typically would have an employee from the leased companies working with them for a while to
Basically at the highest levels they want to make money and not the game itself, the game is just the medium by which they are making the money. Since if they had the meoney invested else where they would get interest and every day the game is in dev they lose money time is a factor. So they hire more employees and cut corners to reduce costs. Then you also have management issues Getting all the programmers to be on the same page as basically they all have alot of different people and got to get all of them to complete the game and get all these dev codes to work together.
Then you have problems like appearence of the game has a greater impact on reviews and sales for us markets then gameplay while gameplay effects long term retention. So they have to spend more on graphics. Then whole problem is the most most importent stuff for the game is added at the end and is in the form of just loose ideas and doddles until the point where they are rushing it out the door.
Basically they need to do more then just the basic concept at the start and have the character structure, and quest/lore ideas, worked out in greater detail before even starting any programing. This work is done at the end of the game but it has the greatest impact on the profits. They could save more money by work all this stuff out on a spread sheet with a small staff then working it out at the end with a hugh staff. This would let them have more lore and storyline and heroics without alot of cost.
Right now they are doing things a bit backwards if you ask me.
Originally posted by Feldron Right now they are doing things a bit backwards if you ask me.
If you go to any other industry and mention how things are done at game companies generally... they'll look at you like you're insane and not believe a word.
I work half the hours as an IT as I did when I worked for a game company... and make more. Then all I do is work on the MMO I'm making in the spare time as an IT while at work, and then again at home while not doing anything else.
- CaesarsGhost
Lead Gameplay and Gameworld Designer for a yet unnamed MMO Title. "When people tell me designing a game is easy, I try to get them to design a board game. Most people don't last 5 minutes, the rest rarely last more then a day. The final few realize it's neither fun nor easy."
Because obviously you have no clue. It's easy to blame the "developers" when in fact you have now idea how things do look like behind the curtains. Really, grow up and get your facts right. First, do you really believe that a developer has the money to produce a MMORPG? Do you? Have you? Have you millions of money to produce such a game? No? Right, someone needs to invest money in order to make a game. And quite a lot of money. Those days were a developer could produce a game all on its own are over. Technically it is still possible. But in order to produce all those graphics, music, infrastructure, packaging and so on you really need a huge amount of money. Did you know that most games actually cost more money than a blockbuster movie? No? So, "developers" need an investor. And investors care about one thing: their money. To some extend it's their very right. I mean, would you invest millions and millions without the intention to get it back? Would you burn millions and millions in the fire? No, I guess you wouldn't. So logically investors are afraid of innovation. Since the risk of loosing all the money is high if you follow new paths. It can work, no doubt. But there's no guarantee. So better stick to the well-known. The real problem after all is that developing modern games has become way, way too expensive. Developers can't develop games on their own anymore. They depend on money-givers. And money-givers have their own ideas. Money-givers do not care about innovation and creativity. They care about ROI (return of investment). Why have developing games become so expensive? Because you, dear players, have become so demanding. Would you play a game with no top-notch GFX and audio? I bet not. You ask for tons and tons and tons of content, top-notch graphics and audio, stability, features and features. But nothing is for free. Those things do cost. Cost means money. And money means fear. Take the iPod touch or iPhone market. Lots of cool games. Why? Because developing games for this platform can be done by small development studios. And suddenly innovation returns. So please, stop bashing the developers per se. I assure you many would love to make things different. But they have to feed a family, too. And they have to report to their investors. Thanks.
sure you could be right but im sure that this is not the case. Ever notice how when movies come out that another one just like it follows behind it. like all those penguin movies and the volcano movies, the slasher films and the zombie films. they all release at the same time it seems like, as if that is what we want to see at that point in time. In the last couple years games were trying to replace wow by being just like it, that obviously doesnt work. So we have been stuck in limbo with this stupid ass games that present no challenge of any sort a game that seems like it should be made for a 12 year old carrot on a stick BS. Within the next couple years though we shall def see a change in the industry (i hope) with SWTOR, Earthrise, Mortal Online, etc.
If developers cannot get the job done with the funds they are given, then they should not have accepted the project in the first place.
I fondly remember playing many fun mmos that were created with much much less capital than a B list hollywood movie, let alone blockbusters which are above 100 million now.
It is not my fault that developers have gotten fat or bloated to the point that they cannot create fun games with 10's of extra millions of dollars more than they have ever had. I'm sorry if their resources now are far greater than they had in the past and cannot exceed past performances when they worked on shoestring budgets.
How would you feel as an investor if you gave a company a budget 10 time larger than they ever had and they produced a game that was inferior in comparison to their previous titles? Who would you blame then?
Stop blaming players.
Stop blaming investors.
At some point you have to give responsibility to the people who actually make the games for what was delivered.
Have you millions of money to produce such a game? No?
Thanks.
I don't have millions of money to produce a game.
I think things will change a bit as developers start to use engines more, and not make a game engine from scratch everytime they make a game.
What happens, is they start with a plan and a budget, and a game design. Then they start making the engine, and by the time they are ready to start actually making game content, they go, oh crap, we are almost out of moneys! We better get some sort of game out there!
It's been my experience that the opposite is true. After leasing an engine, your programmers have to spend time learning in the ins and outs of it.
All leasing an engine does is give you a preprogrammed set of tools. Most programmers I've worked with prefer to create their own technology... it's always the tools that are lacking though in homebrew engines and platforms.
Leasing other people's technology is often a shortcut that costs you MORE in the long run. Lots of studios are learning this the hard way, unfortunately.
I think we're just starting to see some good engines released. We'll see if The Old Republic works out well for Bioware using the Hero Engine, or if they should have started from scratch.
Because obviously you have no clue. It's easy to blame the "developers" when in fact you have now idea how things do look like behind the curtains. Really, grow up and get your facts right. First, do you really believe that a developer has the money to produce a MMORPG? Do you? Have you? Have you millions of money to produce such a game? No? Right, someone needs to invest money in order to make a game. And quite a lot of money. Those days were a developer could produce a game all on its own are over. Technically it is still possible. But in order to produce all those graphics, music, infrastructure, packaging and so on you really need a huge amount of money. Did you know that most games actually cost more money than a blockbuster movie? No? So, "developers" need an investor. And investors care about one thing: their money. To some extend it's their very right. I mean, would you invest millions and millions without the intention to get it back? Would you burn millions and millions in the fire? No, I guess you wouldn't. So logically investors are afraid of innovation. Since the risk of loosing all the money is high if you follow new paths. It can work, no doubt. But there's no guarantee. So better stick to the well-known. The real problem after all is that developing modern games has become way, way too expensive. Developers can't develop games on their own anymore. They depend on money-givers. And money-givers have their own ideas. Money-givers do not care about innovation and creativity. They care about ROI (return of investment). Why have developing games become so expensive? Because you, dear players, have become so demanding. Would you play a game with no top-notch GFX and audio? I bet not. You ask for tons and tons and tons of content, top-notch graphics and audio, stability, features and features. But nothing is for free. Those things do cost. Cost means money. And money means fear. Take the iPod touch or iPhone market. Lots of cool games. Why? Because developing games for this platform can be done by small development studios. And suddenly innovation returns. So please, stop bashing the developers per se. I assure you many would love to make things different. But they have to feed a family, too. And they have to report to their investors. Thanks.
You go to a fancy restuarant and order a meal, you get your meal after two hours of waiting and it's cold and tastes bad.
Do you complain to the chef or the owner of the restuarant?
The meal being the online game and the chef being the developers.
The restaurant being the publisher or the parent company.
Developers and investor want to make games that sells. So they look at where players are spending their money. Money talks more than discussions on messages boards.
Thanks to everyone who spent money on WoW, WoW is now the MMO template for the next 20 years.
Even BioWare took notes from WoW and plans on having fewer choices for the player, as mentioned in one of their press release called 10 things learned from World of Warcraft. So people spending money on WoW even changed how BioWare does things. So thanks WoW players.
Have you millions of money to produce such a game? No?
Thanks.
I don't have millions of money to produce a game.
I think things will change a bit as developers start to use engines more, and not make a game engine from scratch everytime they make a game.
What happens, is they start with a plan and a budget, and a game design. Then they start making the engine, and by the time they are ready to start actually making game content, they go, oh crap, we are almost out of moneys! We better get some sort of game out there!
It's been my experience that the opposite is true. After leasing an engine, your programmers have to spend time learning in the ins and outs of it.
All leasing an engine does is give you a preprogrammed set of tools. Most programmers I've worked with prefer to create their own technology... it's always the tools that are lacking though in homebrew engines and platforms.
Leasing other people's technology is often a shortcut that costs you MORE in the long run. Lots of studios are learning this the hard way, unfortunately.
I think we're just starting to see some good engines released. We'll see if The Old Republic works out well for Bioware using the Hero Engine, or if they should have started from scratch.
And Perpetual? And one of the half dozen other leased technologies?
- CaesarsGhost
Lead Gameplay and Gameworld Designer for a yet unnamed MMO Title. "When people tell me designing a game is easy, I try to get them to design a board game. Most people don't last 5 minutes, the rest rarely last more then a day. The final few realize it's neither fun nor easy."
You are forgetting one thing with your rant. Some developers just want to make money, so they try to make what sells, the same way you say investors would. Not all developers are doing it for the love and not all investors only care about money. So your post is pointless since its basically full of generalizations.
Dev
Some politicans only care about their money. Some gamers only care about flaming around for the sake of flaming. So what? Many developers are working on their game, on their baby, because they believe in their game. But you sir, have no damn clue, what it is to be a developer. If your publisher comes around and tells you you have to release your broken and unfinished stuff because it-is-about-time and the investors want to see some ROI.
Trust me, many, maybe not all, developers would love to produce kick-ass products. But guys like you only heat the fire between the developers and the gamers.
Again you fail, and now you get testy to boot so this is the last response directly to your little tantrum.
The fact remains either group; devs or Investors can be at fault. This means some gamers are warranted when they yell at devs and some are not. You can't blame every crappy game on the investors, that’s idiotic just like your post.
As for having no clue, I am a developer and I have been in a relevant situation twice. Once when the investor demanded a broken game be released, and another where the development team was so dysfunctional and useless that the game was so horrible that I would never allow my name on it. I also personally know quite a few investors that are in it because they love games as they would love their own child, and they always look to invest in games that they would want to play.
Of course it makes sense to back a project that is expected to make money otherwise you fail. Failure includes cost overruns (the game taking longer than dev originally promised), which can end up making the game a loss. So if a game takes to long what do you do? Don't release and keep working on it to get it right and let it be a loss (which benefits no one) or push it out and deal with it in the form of patches or updates, or as it happens in some cases, release and abandon it?
Another point that has its place somewhere in here is that a lot of games can never live up to our expectations. Especially mmorpgs. We tend to create unreleased games in our minds and when they finally come out we are disappointed because it wasn’t what we expected -- I don’t mean a working game, which we all SHOULD expect, but I mean the actual gaming experience. In some cases when promises are broken and game elements are missing on release the consumer has a right to be angry (and we go back to the investor/dev fault issue). When our high expectations are not met then who is to blame... it can become a little grey.
So hopefully you realize the point you try to raise is more complex than crying "stop yelling at the devs!” Maybe you should find an investor to buy you a clue before attacking others, because apparently its YOU that has none.
I work for a game dev company, not mmo dev single player games, but it's still the same.Most companies can't afford to publish they own games, as most mmo companies can't afford to finance 100% of their games.
So the devs make a Level, piece, call it what ever your want. And they show it to the publisher(investors), and they stat to say let's take this out because it will be to hard for the player, let's make the gfx a bit more kiddy so it will appear to a larger crowd, and so on and so on.
The game looks great on paper at the start but when you look at the finished product it is only around 50% like the plan.
So don't blame devs for bad games blame the people that have the money to finance these games and blame them for not letting the devs create the game they want.
__________________________________ Remember the good old days when devs made games just for the sake of making a great game? They are forever gone now all they care is about how much they can earn from them, if they can't make millions they won't make that game.
REMEMBER THE OLD DAYS AND REGRET THEY HAVE PASSED.
I work for a game dev company, not mmo dev single player games, but it's still the same.Most companies can't afford to publish they own games, as most mmo companies can't afford to finance 100% of their games. So the devs make a Level, piece, call it what ever your want. And they show it to the publisher(investors), and they stat to say let's take this out because it will be to hard for the player, let's make the gfx a bit more kiddy so it will appear to a larger crowd, and so on and so on. The game looks great on paper at the start but when you look at the finished product it is only around 50% like the plan. So don't blame devs for bad games blame the people that have the money to finance these games and blame them for not letting the devs create the game they want.
So you are saying that every single time a bad game comes out its the fault of the investor. You are brilliant. You had better tell the investors that so they stop wasting their money.
Actually you are correct. It is the fault of the investor because they invested in a developer who had a flawed idea for a game and were too blinded by ego in thinking they had designed the next big thing.
Its easy to say after the fact ‘they wrecked it, our original idea was the best game ever”. Sure it was… on paper.
Either can be at fault depending on circumstances.
I blame the players really, because its not the developers fault they are just giving the players what they want. the majority of players want dumbed down, easy mode, no effort, instant gratification games. if they didn't 11 million players wouldn't be playing WOW.
So anyone who has given any money to WoW its YOUR fault the genre is churning out the shit that is out there.
so congrats on turning this once incredible genre into a dumbed down single player RPG with a chat box.
Expecting Top quality is no excuse for braindead games.
I blame developers not being able to sell their good concepts to incvestors. To develop systems people will play and not copy what works best for other games, but also to dare to be innovative.
Problem is too many developers have no idea what makes a good mmo and those killed quite a lot of games and millions, so it is no wonder investors follow the working/boring concept.
It's both the gamers and developers fault. It's not the fault of investors or publishers. The latter two are just in business to make money, and they are doing just that.
Gamers, we whine and cry about EVERYTHING. I listened to years of players crying in DAoC because classes weren't balanced. DAoC isn't a PvP game. It's an RvR game. Mythic should have just stuck to that theory instead of years of ramping up one class power then another until everyone was so uber it was boring to play. the realms were balanced fairly well (aka none of the realms were empty), and Mythic should have kept it that way. Instead they ruined their game by listening to there customers.
I listened to years of people crying because you had to sink hundreds of hours grinding away at an MMORPG until you reached max level and uber gear setup. Role Playing Games are not about the destination. They are about the journey. Still, we have all always played them the same way we played Super Mario. It's like listening to classical guitar and complaining because there isn't more cowbell.
Finally, we are to blame because we keep buying this crap.
Developers are to blame because they have gotten as greedy as anyone would. 100k subs used to be a successful MMO. Now 100k subs is an utter failure. This doesn't make any sense unless you are interested in a certain bottom line.
Technology has become better and cheaper every year, but the "cost" of producing an MMO has exploded. The reality is the cost of producing a multimillion dollar business is expensive. The cost of producing a quality product has not risen that much (not counting the labor market, which I would imagine is more competitive).
I think that our only hope is indie games that may come out in the next couple of years. I only hope that gamers will accept the fact that shiny doesn't mean good, and give these games a chance.
the OP is right, however there are always investors out there who want more returns and are willing to risk some cash. This is where the innovative title emerge from. All it takes is a few more (in this genre) and we should be seeing a healthy mix like we do in other gaming genres.
Dont forget time constraints placed on the devs as well. Marketing, management and (again) investors can put unreasonable time constraints on the devs and this usually leads to cut content and delays.
MMO wish list:
-Changeable worlds -Solid non level based game -Sharks with lasers attached to their heads
FALSE: Devs have to base their new MMO based on an already existing MMO in the market.
FALSE: Devs are not allowed to use their imagination, creativity, and proper market research while creating their game.
FALSE: Devs are not allowed to listen to, and answer their target market's feedback while maintaining the game.
Basically, you can see where im going so no point in going any longer with the points.
One more reason why devs are to blame is because of their corporate structure. There is absolutely no reason to cut costs on filling up certain functional divisions in a company, which are highly relevant to the game's overall success. Example: programmers who voice-act in their games (instead of real professional actors), programmers who market their games based on their intuition (instead of real qualified marketers).. so on and so forth.
While the publishers are a huge factor in a game's failure or success, the focus of this thread is on the devs' role.
In summary, yes the devs are to blame if they create a poor version of an already-existing MMO in the market. The devs are to blame if they don't listen to their customers' feedback regarding improving the game. The devs are to blame if they research their target market before, while, and after the production. The devs are to blame if they don't follow the product's life cycle properly and skip certain steps (example: very brief testing, and introducing an unfinished product that is not complete enough).
Comments
I can safely ignore all of your succeeding posts now.
To be fair, he does have a point (sort of).
You can't blame an investor for only backing mainstream projects. They aren't altruistic crusaders for innovation and design, they're just businessmen who see percentages and profit margins. Hence, if the majority of MMO gamers favour a particular type of game .. this is the type of game that will attract investment rather than other, niche games.
So, one could say that we gamers are the ones that perpetuate the lack of innovation in the genre. If a huge percentage of gamers quit their theme-park games in favour of sandbox games, then I would bet heavily on the next AAA budgeted MMO with established IP being a sandbox.
But that's investors, not developers.
Blaming gamers for crappy programming, bugs and broken features .. that's just silly.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Perfectly stated.
I don't have millions of money to produce a game.
I think things will change a bit as developers start to use engines more, and not make a game engine from scratch everytime they make a game.
What happens, is they start with a plan and a budget, and a game design. Then they start making the engine, and by the time they are ready to start actually making game content, they go, oh crap, we are almost out of moneys! We better get some sort of game out there!
I don't have millions of money to produce a game.
I think things will change a bit as developers start to use engines more, and not make a game engine from scratch everytime they make a game.
What happens, is they start with a plan and a budget, and a game design. Then they start making the engine, and by the time they are ready to start actually making game content, they go, oh crap, we are almost out of moneys! We better get some sort of game out there!
It's been my experience that the opposite is true. After leasing an engine, your programmers have to spend time learning in the ins and outs of it.
All leasing an engine does is give you a preprogrammed set of tools. Most programmers I've worked with prefer to create their own technology... it's always the tools that are lacking though in homebrew engines and platforms.
Leasing other people's technology is often a shortcut that costs you MORE in the long run. Lots of studios are learning this the hard way, unfortunately.
- CaesarsGhost
Lead Gameplay and Gameworld Designer for a yet unnamed MMO Title.
"When people tell me designing a game is easy, I try to get them to design a board game. Most people don't last 5 minutes, the rest rarely last more then a day. The final few realize it's neither fun nor easy."
thanks for your comments, CaesarsGhost, very interesting.
Developers include the publishers (which are the typical investors) too. We didn't use the term programmers or designers or artists.
Anyone involved during the development of the game can be considered a developer. Even those involved in PR and Marketing. The only people I wouldn't consider devs are the GMs and customer service staff.
My Maths is simple,the more they(mmo) cost,they crappier they are getting.So I blame the devs,coders and animators,in other word...The Whole Team + the End User who pre order a product they have not seen as if there's no tomorrow.
In the land of Predators,the lion does not fear the jackals...
I don't have millions of money to produce a game.
I think things will change a bit as developers start to use engines more, and not make a game engine from scratch everytime they make a game.
What happens, is they start with a plan and a budget, and a game design. Then they start making the engine, and by the time they are ready to start actually making game content, they go, oh crap, we are almost out of moneys! We better get some sort of game out there!
It's been my experience that the opposite is true. After leasing an engine, your programmers have to spend time learning in the ins and outs of it.
All leasing an engine does is give you a preprogrammed set of tools. Most programmers I've worked with prefer to create their own technology... it's always the tools that are lacking though in homebrew engines and platforms.
Leasing other people's technology is often a shortcut that costs you MORE in the long run. Lots of studios are learning this the hard way, unfortunately.
The problems that arise arent because they are using the engine without experence. They would go with an engine that their devs have pervious exp with and typically would have an employee from the leased companies working with them for a while to
Basically at the highest levels they want to make money and not the game itself, the game is just the medium by which they are making the money. Since if they had the meoney invested else where they would get interest and every day the game is in dev they lose money time is a factor. So they hire more employees and cut corners to reduce costs. Then you also have management issues Getting all the programmers to be on the same page as basically they all have alot of different people and got to get all of them to complete the game and get all these dev codes to work together.
Then you have problems like appearence of the game has a greater impact on reviews and sales for us markets then gameplay while gameplay effects long term retention. So they have to spend more on graphics. Then whole problem is the most most importent stuff for the game is added at the end and is in the form of just loose ideas and doddles until the point where they are rushing it out the door.
Basically they need to do more then just the basic concept at the start and have the character structure, and quest/lore ideas, worked out in greater detail before even starting any programing. This work is done at the end of the game but it has the greatest impact on the profits. They could save more money by work all this stuff out on a spread sheet with a small staff then working it out at the end with a hugh staff. This would let them have more lore and storyline and heroics without alot of cost.
Right now they are doing things a bit backwards if you ask me.
If you go to any other industry and mention how things are done at game companies generally... they'll look at you like you're insane and not believe a word.
I work half the hours as an IT as I did when I worked for a game company... and make more. Then all I do is work on the MMO I'm making in the spare time as an IT while at work, and then again at home while not doing anything else.
- CaesarsGhost
Lead Gameplay and Gameworld Designer for a yet unnamed MMO Title.
"When people tell me designing a game is easy, I try to get them to design a board game. Most people don't last 5 minutes, the rest rarely last more then a day. The final few realize it's neither fun nor easy."
sure you could be right but im sure that this is not the case. Ever notice how when movies come out that another one just like it follows behind it. like all those penguin movies and the volcano movies, the slasher films and the zombie films. they all release at the same time it seems like, as if that is what we want to see at that point in time. In the last couple years games were trying to replace wow by being just like it, that obviously doesnt work. So we have been stuck in limbo with this stupid ass games that present no challenge of any sort a game that seems like it should be made for a 12 year old carrot on a stick BS. Within the next couple years though we shall def see a change in the industry (i hope) with SWTOR, Earthrise, Mortal Online, etc.
If developers cannot get the job done with the funds they are given, then they should not have accepted the project in the first place.
I fondly remember playing many fun mmos that were created with much much less capital than a B list hollywood movie, let alone blockbusters which are above 100 million now.
It is not my fault that developers have gotten fat or bloated to the point that they cannot create fun games with 10's of extra millions of dollars more than they have ever had. I'm sorry if their resources now are far greater than they had in the past and cannot exceed past performances when they worked on shoestring budgets.
How would you feel as an investor if you gave a company a budget 10 time larger than they ever had and they produced a game that was inferior in comparison to their previous titles? Who would you blame then?
Stop blaming players.
Stop blaming investors.
At some point you have to give responsibility to the people who actually make the games for what was delivered.
I blame developers, equally along with:
Unattainable investor expectations (financially & time wise)
A bloated, saturated and ever growing market of limited reach.
The stipulation that anything less then millions of subscribers is a “failure”
The total and relentless, cynical and unfair criticism of everything by the genre’s player base.
So, I don’t only blame them for making uninspiring and sub-par products. I think we all have a hand in what we’re seeing.
I don't have millions of money to produce a game.
I think things will change a bit as developers start to use engines more, and not make a game engine from scratch everytime they make a game.
What happens, is they start with a plan and a budget, and a game design. Then they start making the engine, and by the time they are ready to start actually making game content, they go, oh crap, we are almost out of moneys! We better get some sort of game out there!
It's been my experience that the opposite is true. After leasing an engine, your programmers have to spend time learning in the ins and outs of it.
All leasing an engine does is give you a preprogrammed set of tools. Most programmers I've worked with prefer to create their own technology... it's always the tools that are lacking though in homebrew engines and platforms.
Leasing other people's technology is often a shortcut that costs you MORE in the long run. Lots of studios are learning this the hard way, unfortunately.
I think we're just starting to see some good engines released. We'll see if The Old Republic works out well for Bioware using the Hero Engine, or if they should have started from scratch.
You go to a fancy restuarant and order a meal, you get your meal after two hours of waiting and it's cold and tastes bad.
Do you complain to the chef or the owner of the restuarant?
The meal being the online game and the chef being the developers.
The restaurant being the publisher or the parent company.
I blame the players. Mostly WoW players.
Developers and investor want to make games that sells. So they look at where players are spending their money. Money talks more than discussions on messages boards.
Thanks to everyone who spent money on WoW, WoW is now the MMO template for the next 20 years.
Even BioWare took notes from WoW and plans on having fewer choices for the player, as mentioned in one of their press release called 10 things learned from World of Warcraft. So people spending money on WoW even changed how BioWare does things. So thanks WoW players.
I don't have millions of money to produce a game.
I think things will change a bit as developers start to use engines more, and not make a game engine from scratch everytime they make a game.
What happens, is they start with a plan and a budget, and a game design. Then they start making the engine, and by the time they are ready to start actually making game content, they go, oh crap, we are almost out of moneys! We better get some sort of game out there!
It's been my experience that the opposite is true. After leasing an engine, your programmers have to spend time learning in the ins and outs of it.
All leasing an engine does is give you a preprogrammed set of tools. Most programmers I've worked with prefer to create their own technology... it's always the tools that are lacking though in homebrew engines and platforms.
Leasing other people's technology is often a shortcut that costs you MORE in the long run. Lots of studios are learning this the hard way, unfortunately.
I think we're just starting to see some good engines released. We'll see if The Old Republic works out well for Bioware using the Hero Engine, or if they should have started from scratch.
And Perpetual? And one of the half dozen other leased technologies?
- CaesarsGhost
Lead Gameplay and Gameworld Designer for a yet unnamed MMO Title.
"When people tell me designing a game is easy, I try to get them to design a board game. Most people don't last 5 minutes, the rest rarely last more then a day. The final few realize it's neither fun nor easy."
Some politicans only care about their money. Some gamers only care about flaming around for the sake of flaming. So what? Many developers are working on their game, on their baby, because they believe in their game. But you sir, have no damn clue, what it is to be a developer. If your publisher comes around and tells you you have to release your broken and unfinished stuff because it-is-about-time and the investors want to see some ROI.
Trust me, many, maybe not all, developers would love to produce kick-ass products. But guys like you only heat the fire between the developers and the gamers.
Again you fail, and now you get testy to boot so this is the last response directly to your little tantrum.
The fact remains either group; devs or Investors can be at fault. This means some gamers are warranted when they yell at devs and some are not. You can't blame every crappy game on the investors, that’s idiotic just like your post.
As for having no clue, I am a developer and I have been in a relevant situation twice. Once when the investor demanded a broken game be released, and another where the development team was so dysfunctional and useless that the game was so horrible that I would never allow my name on it. I also personally know quite a few investors that are in it because they love games as they would love their own child, and they always look to invest in games that they would want to play.
Of course it makes sense to back a project that is expected to make money otherwise you fail. Failure includes cost overruns (the game taking longer than dev originally promised), which can end up making the game a loss. So if a game takes to long what do you do? Don't release and keep working on it to get it right and let it be a loss (which benefits no one) or push it out and deal with it in the form of patches or updates, or as it happens in some cases, release and abandon it?
Another point that has its place somewhere in here is that a lot of games can never live up to our expectations. Especially mmorpgs. We tend to create unreleased games in our minds and when they finally come out we are disappointed because it wasn’t what we expected -- I don’t mean a working game, which we all SHOULD expect, but I mean the actual gaming experience. In some cases when promises are broken and game elements are missing on release the consumer has a right to be angry (and we go back to the investor/dev fault issue). When our high expectations are not met then who is to blame... it can become a little grey.
So hopefully you realize the point you try to raise is more complex than crying "stop yelling at the devs!” Maybe you should find an investor to buy you a clue before attacking others, because apparently its YOU that has none.
Dev
www.TXcomics.com "Your daily webcomics broadcast"
I work for a game dev company, not mmo dev single player games, but it's still the same.Most companies can't afford to publish they own games, as most mmo companies can't afford to finance 100% of their games.
So the devs make a Level, piece, call it what ever your want. And they show it to the publisher(investors), and they stat to say let's take this out because it will be to hard for the player, let's make the gfx a bit more kiddy so it will appear to a larger crowd, and so on and so on.
The game looks great on paper at the start but when you look at the finished product it is only around 50% like the plan.
So don't blame devs for bad games blame the people that have the money to finance these games and blame them for not letting the devs create the game they want.
__________________________________
Remember the good old days when devs made games just for the sake of making a great game?
They are forever gone now all they care is about how much they can earn from them, if they can't make millions they won't make that game.
REMEMBER THE OLD DAYS AND REGRET THEY HAVE PASSED.
So you are saying that every single time a bad game comes out its the fault of the investor. You are brilliant. You had better tell the investors that so they stop wasting their money.
Actually you are correct. It is the fault of the investor because they invested in a developer who had a flawed idea for a game and were too blinded by ego in thinking they had designed the next big thing.
Its easy to say after the fact ‘they wrecked it, our original idea was the best game ever”. Sure it was… on paper.
Either can be at fault depending on circumstances.
Dev
www.TXcomics.com "Your daily webcomics broadcast"
I blame the players really, because its not the developers fault they are just giving the players what they want. the majority of players want dumbed down, easy mode, no effort, instant gratification games. if they didn't 11 million players wouldn't be playing WOW.
So anyone who has given any money to WoW its YOUR fault the genre is churning out the shit that is out there.
so congrats on turning this once incredible genre into a dumbed down single player RPG with a chat box.
Expecting Top quality is no excuse for braindead games.
I blame developers not being able to sell their good concepts to incvestors. To develop systems people will play and not copy what works best for other games, but also to dare to be innovative.
Problem is too many developers have no idea what makes a good mmo and those killed quite a lot of games and millions, so it is no wonder investors follow the working/boring concept.
DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS
yay i can post
HEHEHEHE
It's both the gamers and developers fault. It's not the fault of investors or publishers. The latter two are just in business to make money, and they are doing just that.
Gamers, we whine and cry about EVERYTHING. I listened to years of players crying in DAoC because classes weren't balanced. DAoC isn't a PvP game. It's an RvR game. Mythic should have just stuck to that theory instead of years of ramping up one class power then another until everyone was so uber it was boring to play. the realms were balanced fairly well (aka none of the realms were empty), and Mythic should have kept it that way. Instead they ruined their game by listening to there customers.
I listened to years of people crying because you had to sink hundreds of hours grinding away at an MMORPG until you reached max level and uber gear setup. Role Playing Games are not about the destination. They are about the journey. Still, we have all always played them the same way we played Super Mario. It's like listening to classical guitar and complaining because there isn't more cowbell.
Finally, we are to blame because we keep buying this crap.
Developers are to blame because they have gotten as greedy as anyone would. 100k subs used to be a successful MMO. Now 100k subs is an utter failure. This doesn't make any sense unless you are interested in a certain bottom line.
Technology has become better and cheaper every year, but the "cost" of producing an MMO has exploded. The reality is the cost of producing a multimillion dollar business is expensive. The cost of producing a quality product has not risen that much (not counting the labor market, which I would imagine is more competitive).
I think that our only hope is indie games that may come out in the next couple of years. I only hope that gamers will accept the fact that shiny doesn't mean good, and give these games a chance.
Which FF Character Are You?
the OP is right, however there are always investors out there who want more returns and are willing to risk some cash. This is where the innovative title emerge from. All it takes is a few more (in this genre) and we should be seeing a healthy mix like we do in other gaming genres.
Dont forget time constraints placed on the devs as well. Marketing, management and (again) investors can put unreasonable time constraints on the devs and this usually leads to cut content and delays.
MMO wish list:
-Changeable worlds
-Solid non level based game
-Sharks with lasers attached to their heads
TRUE: investors care about their ROI
TRUE: Devs rely on investors' funds
FALSE: Devs have to base their new MMO based on an already existing MMO in the market.
FALSE: Devs are not allowed to use their imagination, creativity, and proper market research while creating their game.
FALSE: Devs are not allowed to listen to, and answer their target market's feedback while maintaining the game.
Basically, you can see where im going so no point in going any longer with the points.
One more reason why devs are to blame is because of their corporate structure. There is absolutely no reason to cut costs on filling up certain functional divisions in a company, which are highly relevant to the game's overall success. Example: programmers who voice-act in their games (instead of real professional actors), programmers who market their games based on their intuition (instead of real qualified marketers).. so on and so forth.
While the publishers are a huge factor in a game's failure or success, the focus of this thread is on the devs' role.
In summary, yes the devs are to blame if they create a poor version of an already-existing MMO in the market. The devs are to blame if they don't listen to their customers' feedback regarding improving the game. The devs are to blame if they research their target market before, while, and after the production. The devs are to blame if they don't follow the product's life cycle properly and skip certain steps (example: very brief testing, and introducing an unfinished product that is not complete enough).
Played: Earth'n'Beyond-WoW-EvE-EQ2-LoTRo-PotBS-CoV-Vanguard-FFXI-DDO-L2