Who cares who's fault it is. If we the gamers stop buying junk then less junk will be released. Simple as that.
Stop supporting bad games with your money and send a message to the industry through your wallet.
Closing Hellgate london and have Flagship Studios close down was a step in the right direction. That happened because gamers didn't want to waste their money on a pile of crap. Since money wasn't coming in as expected with a bad launch the game lasted 8 months (i know it lasted a bit longer but this was as far as their income went). That's how you show them.
People seem to be forgetting that the 'devs'. That is the programmers, modellers, artists, designers and the rest of the actual working crew are not the ones controlling the genre.
Let's take any other product out there. Doesn't really matter what.
If brand A is a complete failure then there's a really good chance that the people creating brand A are to blame.
If brand A & B fail then there's still a quite decent chance the people creating them are too blame. But the chance that it's another factor is too blame increases.
If brand A, B, C, D, E, F & G all fail then the chance that the people creating them are too blame becomes increasingly small. Most likely there's an outside source causing this because chances of everyone in a certain industry sucking balls are statistically speaking nearly impossible.
Just look at how many MMOs dissapointed over the past years. Do you honestly think that each and everyone of those was created by a pack of retarded monkeys?
It's simply way more likely that there's a common source affecting all of these companies. Now how many people do you think there are running around investing in MMORPGs? It won't be many because in order to invest into something you need to have advanced undestanding of whatever you're investing in before you can get optimal returns of investment.
There will be a limited amount of investors that have an advanced understanding of MMORPGs and these investors will not simply invest into a single MMO. They'll invest in multiple games since if game A fails then game B is more likely to succeed simply due to less alternatives on the market. So investing in multiple games decreases the risk of your overall investment.
Now what do you think is more likely? That over half of the people developing MMOs are retarded monkeys or that there's a small group of investors that have shares in a large number of MMOs are pushing said MMOs to go down the tried and true path in order to reduce risks on their investments?
Simple rule of ockham's razor. The simplest explanation is often best. I'd say that it's simply way more likely that there's a small group of MMO investors steering various projects down the same path than developers of all said projects having little to no understanding at all of the demands of players and having zero motivation to develop good games.
But hey, decide for yourself. If you want to blame the guys who earn a normal weekly wage and would simply gain a few more weeks or months of gauranteed work and less overhours by not pushing their projects out early instead of the guys who are losing a million every month the project stays in production past the projected release date then by my guest. I just hope one day your brain will develop that handy little something called common sense.
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
Hmmm......so if we're going to blame the investors, not the developers, for bad games, does that mean we're also going to praise/honor/award the investors for the good games?....and stop awarding the devs, who have nothing to do with the final product, apparently. Sounds to me like a lot of developer's are getting promotions they don't deserve.
I'm looking foward to the next round of gaming awards, and hope the OP and I get a chance to discuss this year's finalists for the big award: "MMO Investment Group of the Year". I'm sure it'll be a tight race.
Look....there's plenty of blame to go around when a product goes bad, including in this industry, and in this genre. Let's not be so naive as to think that anything in the entertainment industry could be boiled down to a statement as simple as "Bad products happen because of (insert group here)." That's just dumb.
Investors steer the type and style of MMOs to be created by their funds? Most probably true.
But if you were a developer, and was offered X amount of dollars as a budget to create a WoW-clone with nothing special; would you accept & take the risk of bad rep on your company and start designing the new failure-to-be game?
You cannot absolve all devs from 100% of the blame; accept the fact that they have their share of blame to bear.
So, "developers" need an investor. And investors care about one thing: their money. To some extend it's their very right. I mean, would you invest millions and millions without the intention to get it back? Would you burn millions and millions in the fire? No, I guess you wouldn't. So logically investors are afraid of innovation. Since the risk of loosing all the money is high if you follow new paths. It can work, no doubt. But there's no guarantee. So better stick to the well-known. The real problem after all is that developing modern games has become way, way too expensive. Developers can't develop games on their own anymore. They depend on money-givers. And money-givers have their own ideas. Money-givers do not care about innovation and creativity. They care about ROI (return of investment).
Sorry man but you are not exactly right. The first step to find an investor is to make something interesting. Who makes the interesting things? The Developper team. It's them who are afraid of creating a game with innovation and completly new unique features. Investors don't seem to know much about video games in my point of view. The moment they are presented a game similar to WoW they spit money. "WoW worked so this game will obviously work."
Luckily there's a few companies who can bring something completly new and interesting and catch the eyes of the investors. Which means that it is indeed the developpers fault if they cannot bring something interesting and can only follow the path of WoW in hope of making money. WoW is not the only game in this world that actually worked. Yes it has 11M players but so what? How about making something that will interest these WoW players and steal them away? There's so many ways to do this but developpers are just too afraid or lazy to do it. And what about the remaining millions who are still looking for a game that is not similar to WoW? Developpers are simply stuck in a vicious circle and can't get out.
It's like Poker, either you play like a Pro or you stay as a Newbie.
Still the devs fault. If the investor wants to make you do something entirely old and stupid it's your responsibility to say "Screw off". If the investor says "Hurry up!" the dev team's job is to say "No, we'll be done once we are done". May this end up in some lost investors? Yes. But once you find one that actually wants to produce a good game will the outcome be better? Yes.
And don't respond with "Well the devs wouldn't make as much money" or "The devs would lose money". See, back the money. Not only money, but money with the devs. Now we're back to the CORRECT point. It's usually the devs fault something is frakked up.
____________________________ Telthalion Rohircil - Guardian - Elemandir - Lord of The Rings Online --- == RIP == Torey - Commando - Orion - Tabula Rasa == RIP == --- Jordaniel Torey - Navy Megathron, Active Armor Tank - Tranquility - EVE Online --- Torey Scott - Rifleman - Fallen Earth ____________________________
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but I know World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." - Albert Einstein
Making games from an investor stand point is a high risk investment.
The problem i feel devs have is the way they sell the idea to these investors.
From an indie developer standpoint, You don't have the haggle felt by say a AAA EA owned team.
If you sell it to the investors with a pair of balls, know your market, Know your damn market... and not having the OMG we are gods, and going to make gobs of cash as a driving force then maybe you'll be successful.
If an investor gripes, you have the ability to say, " Hay we will be done when we are done"
Why cause you sold the idea to them this way...
Foundation,
Did you build one?
Nitch,
Do you really have one? How long did you sift through forum posts for different games and look at player responses, whines and grips about their favorite game, features etc. Player emotion directed at a game and shared is an invaluable asset that is sadly overlooked and frowned upon, yet its free, and most times unedited.
Community,
Did you mold one, do people trust you and your ability for create a quality product. Why, word of mouth will kill your product if its horrible.
Many indie devs want to just jump right in and build a mmog, for the gobs of cash they dream about when they go to sleep. Many don't sit down and really study the market from a consumer standpoint.
Many have the idea that remaking the same old shit will make you successful, resulting in them being black balled and their game server bare of consumers. and debts to be paid.
Do i blame the developers hell yea. Its your idea, its your research, its your design, its your marketing, its your choices on who to allow to invest in your ideas, its your loss if i don't open my wallet.
You created your bed sleep in it. accountability is part of learning your mistakes, blaming everyone else for your shortcomings isn't going to change the fact that im still not going to pay for bullshit, no matter how you wrap it.
Advice to an indie developer.
Make a simple game. Build a foundation, a community. It dosnt take a ton of cash. Take Mount and blade as an example. A husband wife team, made in their basement. selling for $30 bucks everywhere, even direct download. And the game is great, fresh, and the combat mechanics are revolutionary when compared to the norm....
Savage S2 team, build two base games, and are now working on a mmog.. they have the foundation. This team is going places.
I guess that we will have to make our own games in that case. The graphics may not be great, but the games might be fun and innovative at least. Unforunately you can't really make your own MMO, but you can make your own single or coop game if you put a lot of your free time into it. It probably wont look like the flashy realistic graphics/physics of today, but you could make a simple 3D or even a nice 2D game.
I will of course blame the developers, because they develop a crappy game. This may not have been the intention but it was the end result.
I will blame the investors because they push for a release of said crappy game.
I will blame management because they fold to the investors and do release this crappy game, even though they know it should be pushed back.
And yes, i do blame the gamers. Probably the gamers the most because we have become a very bitchy and needy crowd. Every game now has to exactly fit exactly what i want or im going to go on a forum and bitch about it all day. Yet we gamers seem to not get that the other guy doing this same exact thing probably doesnt want exactly what i want.
No longer can developers make the games that they want to make, they now almost are required to try to make a game that will appease the largest amount of the masses. Because of this we often get watered down games that are not really offensive to anyone but not really perfect for anyone either. The niche game is pretty much a dead thing, if you are trying to make a niche game, and even specify that this IS a niche game people wills till come on your forum and blast it because they dont like that niche.
So ya, i probably blame the gamers the most. The largest portion of MMO gamers now , as far as i can see, are bitchy all about me types.
And i also blame the gamers because they are willing to pay for and play these very same watered down appease the masses games. 10 million people cant be wrong.
For 16 years I have owned and operated a meduim sized food processing plant.
In that time,I have dealt with multiple development teams,both marketing and computer programming.
All development teams that I have hired,have shared many similar if not identical traits.
Development teams are master innovators and are usually very talented,motivated and passionate about their "craft". These are their pro's. They also tend to be very sensitive,impractical and undisciplined. These are their con's.("Bottom line...budget..deadlines...What's all that mean?")
Investors are usually the exact opposite. Investors are master implementers and poor innovators(ME)And YES! we can be very dismissive,heavy handed and stubborn.
When the two groups mix,the reaction can be very volatile.(Did anybody ever drop a cube of sodium into a beaker of water in science class?) My average argument with my wife is less emotional and frustrating than some I have had with development teams.
Once,just once...and I paid dearly for my foolish decision and ignorance,did I write a blank check to a development team. Never again...oversight is a must. Many of you may be saying to yourselves "See,he trusted those greedy devs and they took him for a ride"...this assessment is far from the truth. The fault was mine and mine alone because I failed to recognize their weaknesses.
Innovators vs. Implementers This struggle is as old as business itself. The key to successful harmony is to learn compromise.
A prime example of this struggle occurred at Marvel Comics in the early 90's. I'm sure many of you remember what happened. A Marvel Comics development team,fed up with the standards and restrictions placed upon them by the editors(implementers) quit Marvel Comics and formed their own company Image Comics. What followed was a new,fresh and innovative comic book format. Fantastic art,awesome characters and interesting stories...These were the pro's. What also followed was an absolutly abysmal production and distribution schedule,abruptly dropped storylines,centrally cast characters killed off inexplicably. These were the con's.
Both companies and especially the customers were poorer for the fact that a workable compromise was not reached. The same model holds true for MMORPG production teams. Teamork chemistry is difficult to achieve and even harder to maintain..I just hope someone in this industry accomplishes it(other than CCP) because I would really like to play a good title again.
ramble over,tired(Yawn) and most of you are smart enough to fill in the blanks.
Making games from an investor stand point is a high risk investment.
The problem i feel devs have is the way they sell the idea to these investors. From an indie developer standpoint, You don't have the haggle felt by say a AAA EA owned team. If you sell it to the investors with a pair of balls, know your market, Know your damn market... and not having the OMG we are gods, and going to make gobs of cash as a driving force then maybe you'll be successful. If an investor gripes, you have the ability to say, " Hay we will be done when we are done" Why cause you sold the idea to them this way...
Foundation, Did you build one?
Nitch, Do you really have one? How long did you sift through forum posts for different games and look at player responses, whines and grips about their favorite game, features etc. Player emotion directed at a game and shared is an invaluable asset that is sadly overlooked and frowned upon, yet its free, and most times unedited. Community, Did you mold one, do people trust you and your ability for create a quality product. Why, word of mouth will kill your product if its horrible.
Many indie devs want to just jump right in and build a mmog, for the gobs of cash they dream about when they go to sleep. Many don't sit down and really study the market from a consumer standpoint. Many have the idea that remaking the same old shit will make you successful, resulting in them being black balled and their game server bare of consumers. and debts to be paid.
Do i blame the developers hell yea. Its your idea, its your research, its your design, its your marketing, its your choices on who to allow to invest in your ideas, its your loss if i don't open my wallet. You created your bed sleep in it. accountability is part of learning your mistakes, blaming everyone else for your shortcomings isn't going to change the fact that im still not going to pay for bullshit, no matter how you wrap it.
Advice to an indie developer. Make a simple game. Build a foundation, a community. It dosnt take a ton of cash. Take Mount and blade as an example. A husband wife team, made in their basement. selling for $30 bucks everywhere, even direct download. And the game is great, fresh, and the combat mechanics are revolutionary when compared to the norm.... Savage S2 team, build two base games, and are now working on a mmog.. they have the foundation. This team is going places.
Hay but what do i know.... Need a QA team check us out here: www.betafreaks.net
I need more guys like you working for me.
If you ever feel the desire to produce and market "croutons" and or "BBQ sauce" in addition to 27 other varieties of foods. Let me know.
Now if you were serious about that offer, id seriously consider it. Shoot me a pm, you make hot sauce? Got to have a good hot sauce to go with a great BBQ sauce.
Comments
Who cares who's fault it is. If we the gamers stop buying junk then less junk will be released. Simple as that.
Stop supporting bad games with your money and send a message to the industry through your wallet.
Closing Hellgate london and have Flagship Studios close down was a step in the right direction. That happened because gamers didn't want to waste their money on a pile of crap. Since money wasn't coming in as expected with a bad launch the game lasted 8 months (i know it lasted a bit longer but this was as far as their income went). That's how you show them.
Fully agree with the OP.
And quite sad by the responses in this thread.
People seem to be forgetting that the 'devs'. That is the programmers, modellers, artists, designers and the rest of the actual working crew are not the ones controlling the genre.
Let's take any other product out there. Doesn't really matter what.
If brand A is a complete failure then there's a really good chance that the people creating brand A are to blame.
If brand A & B fail then there's still a quite decent chance the people creating them are too blame. But the chance that it's another factor is too blame increases.
If brand A, B, C, D, E, F & G all fail then the chance that the people creating them are too blame becomes increasingly small. Most likely there's an outside source causing this because chances of everyone in a certain industry sucking balls are statistically speaking nearly impossible.
Just look at how many MMOs dissapointed over the past years. Do you honestly think that each and everyone of those was created by a pack of retarded monkeys?
It's simply way more likely that there's a common source affecting all of these companies. Now how many people do you think there are running around investing in MMORPGs? It won't be many because in order to invest into something you need to have advanced undestanding of whatever you're investing in before you can get optimal returns of investment.
There will be a limited amount of investors that have an advanced understanding of MMORPGs and these investors will not simply invest into a single MMO. They'll invest in multiple games since if game A fails then game B is more likely to succeed simply due to less alternatives on the market. So investing in multiple games decreases the risk of your overall investment.
Now what do you think is more likely? That over half of the people developing MMOs are retarded monkeys or that there's a small group of investors that have shares in a large number of MMOs are pushing said MMOs to go down the tried and true path in order to reduce risks on their investments?
Simple rule of ockham's razor. The simplest explanation is often best. I'd say that it's simply way more likely that there's a small group of MMO investors steering various projects down the same path than developers of all said projects having little to no understanding at all of the demands of players and having zero motivation to develop good games.
But hey, decide for yourself. If you want to blame the guys who earn a normal weekly wage and would simply gain a few more weeks or months of gauranteed work and less overhours by not pushing their projects out early instead of the guys who are losing a million every month the project stays in production past the projected release date then by my guest. I just hope one day your brain will develop that handy little something called common sense.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o)
(")("),,(")("),(")(")
Hmmm......so if we're going to blame the investors, not the developers, for bad games, does that mean we're also going to praise/honor/award the investors for the good games?....and stop awarding the devs, who have nothing to do with the final product, apparently. Sounds to me like a lot of developer's are getting promotions they don't deserve.
I'm looking foward to the next round of gaming awards, and hope the OP and I get a chance to discuss this year's finalists for the big award: "MMO Investment Group of the Year". I'm sure it'll be a tight race.
Look....there's plenty of blame to go around when a product goes bad, including in this industry, and in this genre. Let's not be so naive as to think that anything in the entertainment industry could be boiled down to a statement as simple as "Bad products happen because of (insert group here)." That's just dumb.
But hey, what do I know.
Investors steer the type and style of MMOs to be created by their funds? Most probably true.
But if you were a developer, and was offered X amount of dollars as a budget to create a WoW-clone with nothing special; would you accept & take the risk of bad rep on your company and start designing the new failure-to-be game?
You cannot absolve all devs from 100% of the blame; accept the fact that they have their share of blame to bear.
Played: Earth'n'Beyond-WoW-EvE-EQ2-LoTRo-PotBS-CoV-Vanguard-FFXI-DDO-L2
Sorry man but you are not exactly right. The first step to find an investor is to make something interesting. Who makes the interesting things? The Developper team. It's them who are afraid of creating a game with innovation and completly new unique features. Investors don't seem to know much about video games in my point of view. The moment they are presented a game similar to WoW they spit money. "WoW worked so this game will obviously work."
Luckily there's a few companies who can bring something completly new and interesting and catch the eyes of the investors. Which means that it is indeed the developpers fault if they cannot bring something interesting and can only follow the path of WoW in hope of making money. WoW is not the only game in this world that actually worked. Yes it has 11M players but so what? How about making something that will interest these WoW players and steal them away? There's so many ways to do this but developpers are just too afraid or lazy to do it. And what about the remaining millions who are still looking for a game that is not similar to WoW? Developpers are simply stuck in a vicious circle and can't get out.
It's like Poker, either you play like a Pro or you stay as a Newbie.
Still the devs fault. If the investor wants to make you do something entirely old and stupid it's your responsibility to say "Screw off". If the investor says "Hurry up!" the dev team's job is to say "No, we'll be done once we are done". May this end up in some lost investors? Yes. But once you find one that actually wants to produce a good game will the outcome be better? Yes.
And don't respond with "Well the devs wouldn't make as much money" or "The devs would lose money". See, back the money. Not only money, but money with the devs. Now we're back to the CORRECT point. It's usually the devs fault something is frakked up.
____________________________
Telthalion Rohircil - Guardian - Elemandir - Lord of The Rings Online
---
== RIP == Torey - Commando - Orion - Tabula Rasa == RIP ==
---
Jordaniel Torey - Navy Megathron, Active Armor Tank - Tranquility - EVE Online
---
Torey Scott - Rifleman - Fallen Earth
____________________________
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but I know World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." - Albert Einstein
Making games from an investor stand point is a high risk investment.
The problem i feel devs have is the way they sell the idea to these investors.
From an indie developer standpoint, You don't have the haggle felt by say a AAA EA owned team.
If you sell it to the investors with a pair of balls, know your market, Know your damn market... and not having the OMG we are gods, and going to make gobs of cash as a driving force then maybe you'll be successful.
If an investor gripes, you have the ability to say, " Hay we will be done when we are done"
Why cause you sold the idea to them this way...
Foundation,
Did you build one?
Nitch,
Do you really have one? How long did you sift through forum posts for different games and look at player responses, whines and grips about their favorite game, features etc. Player emotion directed at a game and shared is an invaluable asset that is sadly overlooked and frowned upon, yet its free, and most times unedited.
Community,
Did you mold one, do people trust you and your ability for create a quality product. Why, word of mouth will kill your product if its horrible.
Many indie devs want to just jump right in and build a mmog, for the gobs of cash they dream about when they go to sleep. Many don't sit down and really study the market from a consumer standpoint.
Many have the idea that remaking the same old shit will make you successful, resulting in them being black balled and their game server bare of consumers. and debts to be paid.
Do i blame the developers hell yea. Its your idea, its your research, its your design, its your marketing, its your choices on who to allow to invest in your ideas, its your loss if i don't open my wallet.
You created your bed sleep in it. accountability is part of learning your mistakes, blaming everyone else for your shortcomings isn't going to change the fact that im still not going to pay for bullshit, no matter how you wrap it.
Advice to an indie developer.
Make a simple game. Build a foundation, a community. It dosnt take a ton of cash. Take Mount and blade as an example. A husband wife team, made in their basement. selling for $30 bucks everywhere, even direct download. And the game is great, fresh, and the combat mechanics are revolutionary when compared to the norm....
Savage S2 team, build two base games, and are now working on a mmog.. they have the foundation. This team is going places.
Hay but what do i know....
Need a QA team check us out here:
www.betafreaks.net
FoE Fist of the Empire
I guess that we will have to make our own games in that case. The graphics may not be great, but the games might be fun and innovative at least. Unforunately you can't really make your own MMO, but you can make your own single or coop game if you put a lot of your free time into it. It probably wont look like the flashy realistic graphics/physics of today, but you could make a simple 3D or even a nice 2D game.
I will of course blame the developers, because they develop a crappy game. This may not have been the intention but it was the end result.
I will blame the investors because they push for a release of said crappy game.
I will blame management because they fold to the investors and do release this crappy game, even though they know it should be pushed back.
And yes, i do blame the gamers. Probably the gamers the most because we have become a very bitchy and needy crowd. Every game now has to exactly fit exactly what i want or im going to go on a forum and bitch about it all day. Yet we gamers seem to not get that the other guy doing this same exact thing probably doesnt want exactly what i want.
No longer can developers make the games that they want to make, they now almost are required to try to make a game that will appease the largest amount of the masses. Because of this we often get watered down games that are not really offensive to anyone but not really perfect for anyone either. The niche game is pretty much a dead thing, if you are trying to make a niche game, and even specify that this IS a niche game people wills till come on your forum and blast it because they dont like that niche.
So ya, i probably blame the gamers the most. The largest portion of MMO gamers now , as far as i can see, are bitchy all about me types.
And i also blame the gamers because they are willing to pay for and play these very same watered down appease the masses games. 10 million people cant be wrong.
*Yes i know i probably spelled some words wrong.
I confess,I am an "evil" investor.
For 16 years I have owned and operated a meduim sized food processing plant.
In that time,I have dealt with multiple development teams,both marketing and computer programming.
All development teams that I have hired,have shared many similar if not identical traits.
Development teams are master innovators and are usually very talented,motivated and passionate about their "craft". These are their pro's. They also tend to be very sensitive,impractical and undisciplined. These are their con's.("Bottom line...budget..deadlines...What's all that mean?")
Investors are usually the exact opposite. Investors are master implementers and poor innovators(ME)
And YES! we can be very dismissive,heavy handed and stubborn.
When the two groups mix,the reaction can be very volatile.(Did anybody ever drop a cube of sodium into a beaker of water in science class?) My average argument with my wife is less emotional and frustrating than some I have had with development teams.
Once,just once...and I paid dearly for my foolish decision and ignorance,did I write a blank check to a development team. Never again...oversight is a must. Many of you may be saying to yourselves "See,he trusted those greedy devs and they took him for a ride"...this assessment is far from the truth. The fault was mine and mine alone because I failed to recognize their weaknesses.
Innovators vs. Implementers This struggle is as old as business itself. The key to successful harmony is to learn compromise.
A prime example of this struggle occurred at Marvel Comics in the early 90's. I'm sure many of you remember what happened. A Marvel Comics development team,fed up with the standards and restrictions placed upon them by the editors(implementers) quit Marvel Comics and formed their own company Image Comics. What followed was a new,fresh and innovative comic book format. Fantastic art,awesome characters and interesting stories...These were the pro's. What also followed was an absolutly abysmal production and distribution schedule,abruptly dropped storylines,centrally cast characters killed off inexplicably. These were the con's.
Both companies and especially the customers were poorer for the fact that a workable compromise was not reached. The same model holds true for MMORPG production teams. Teamork chemistry is difficult to achieve and even harder to maintain..I just hope someone in this industry accomplishes it(other than CCP) because I would really like to play a good title again.
ramble over,tired(Yawn) and most of you are smart enough to fill in the blanks.
I need more guys like you working for me.
If you ever feel the desire to produce and market "croutons" and or "BBQ sauce" in addition to 27 other varieties of foods. Let me know.
Now if you were serious about that offer, id seriously consider it. Shoot me a pm, you make hot sauce? Got to have a good hot sauce to go with a great BBQ sauce.
FoE Fist of the Empire
