Sorry but those complaining are acting childish. The OP is twisting the facts to make people share his or her hate for SOE.
Lets look at the details that the OP conveniently left out. " We're providing our data for science! In a recent collaboration, SOE shared over 60TB of server logs from EverQuest II and additional data collected from a voluntary player survey with a team of academic researchers who hope to use the data to study human interactions through the gaming environment, connections between players and how their online networks are built and used, and more. The server logs were scrubbed of all PII (Personally Identifiable Information) prior to being provided to the researchers, including chat log content. The team received data such as the volume, frequency and demographics of in-game chatters, but none of this information was connected to the real names or other PII of any players."
All you drama queens need to relax and get real. I am glad SOE is helping the academic field.
Raise your hand if you believe soe combed through SIXTY TERABYTES of data to remove personally identifiable information. Something tells me that if they don't have time to add new animations or skeletal revamp, they sure as hell don't have the manpower to comb through that much data.
Raise your hand if you believe soe did this out of good will and not in some way to line their own pockets by selling your data. Something tells me this was done to further their RMT goals which is why the study talks about transactions and such.
Well first your response shows that you did not read the post. Where did it just say 60tb of server logs? The other data includes volunary surveys and inquiries. What part of this are you not understanding? The server logs themselves will be under 60 terabytes. Its easy to remove PII from a server log btw. The question is on the contents, which could have filters placed out to exclude names, dates, email addresses, websites, phone numbers..ect. Furthermore, who discusses personal information over a mmorpg? Thats pretty dense in my opinion. Either way, no harm is being done and no one is having their precious data stolen. I dont know if you ever read the EULA and TOS for every game you play, but all of them have the right to what you put in that game via text. Hell I bet many of the games you support have minor data mining going on when you run the game. Hellgate london had it, and quite a few others have it.
Does Sony have something to gain by sharing the data to researchers? Of course, but its not money. Do you know how game design theory started? the answer is "with research". Understanding how players interact over the internet in mmorpgs is the best way to understand how to improve on that facet of gaming, how to push it to the next level and how gaming grows in the public eye. Sony isnt the only one who gains from helping researchers, every mmorpg developing company does. The result of the research is not exclusive.
I feel sorry for people like you who dont read the agreements you make when installing a game, and feel that SOE is the bad one while the rest are good. Start reading those agreements and you will find that by your logic, you should hate every game company in existence.
Don't pull this crap about feeliing sorry for me while you trip over yourself to appologize for this.
You really think there is anywhere close to 60tb of surveys? That would be the most ineffective use of storage space in the history of the internet. Just use a little common sense friend. How would YOU filter out 60tb worth of data? Some sort of automated filter or script? Do you think that is 100% effective? Do you really think people don't talk about real life events with their friends in online games? Again, apply a little common sense. Soe doesn't have the manpower to make some of the most requested changes to eq2, but you think they have extra manpower to scrub 60tb worth of data?
As for the EULA, lets be realisitc ok. Just because soe chose to change an one sided contract mid stream doesn't mean that is has legal standing. Soe can put whatever they want in a eula and you can click accept and guess what, it may not hold up in a court of law. I wish people like you would stop repeating this eula trumps everything nonsense, because it doesn't.
The basic premise of a contract isn't even met, because you as the singer have no bargaining power. Eulas exist to protect their property and nothing more. They do not circumvent real laws. They are not binding contracts beyond normal expectations.
By my logic (as you seem to think you understand) the original eula I signed with soe had nothing about them giving my information out to whomever they please until a few weeks ago when they changed it. I suggest you apply a little logic yourself instead of just flipping on the apathy switch and accepting that this is just how things are. If everyone jumped off a bridge would you?
P.S. speaking of not reading, where did I say server logs?
Rofl, ok . You are trying too hard. You stated that 60tb of data with PII were given away without consent. Fact is, I made it clear that part of it was volunary via surveys. Which means, given that you cannot use process of elimination, that you were referring to server logs, which was the only other non voluntary data given. You said it was 60tb, you were wrong. Will you admit that? Furthermore, in fact by accepting the EULA, it was voluntary for all of it....legally. Every company gives out information to a certain extent. Unless your data log said " i am X from Y and my phone number and address are Z", you are not being personally identified what so ever.
You can argue all you want, try to redirect or change the topic all you want, but you know you are wrong and so does everyone else. A level minded person would admit to such and not really take sides in the matter. Fact is, SOE is not a bad company. They have an unpopular past due to how they were stuctured. Meaning, SOE was run by movie executives, not game producers. There in lay the problem. If you know anything about movie execs...they are pure business men, they have no idea how to make wise game based decisions. The SWG fiasco is due to movie execs in both sony films and lucas arts making the decisions when they shouldnt have. After Sony got a new CEO, a non japanese business man from the UK, restructuring began. Much needed restructuring. SOE was finally put under the game devision, not the film division (as part of interactive entertainment), which was where the problems were coming from.
If for one second you understood thing, as well as understood that the other game companies you support do worse via EULA, then you wouldnt be saying such ignorant things and trying so hard to prove me wrong even though you dodge the previous post with excuses and purposeful misinturpritation.
Sorry but those complaining are acting childish. The OP is twisting the facts to make people share his or her hate for SOE.
Lets look at the details that the OP conveniently left out. " We're providing our data for science! In a recent collaboration, SOE shared over 60TB of server logs from EverQuest II and additional data collected from a voluntary player survey with a team of academic researchers who hope to use the data to study human interactions through the gaming environment, connections between players and how their online networks are built and used, and more. The server logs were scrubbed of all PII (Personally Identifiable Information) prior to being provided to the researchers, including chat log content. The team received data such as the volume, frequency and demographics of in-game chatters, but none of this information was connected to the real names or other PII of any players."
All you drama queens need to relax and get real. I am glad SOE is helping the academic field.
Raise your hand if you believe soe combed through SIXTY TERABYTES of data to remove personally identifiable information. Something tells me that if they don't have time to add new animations or skeletal revamp, they sure as hell don't have the manpower to comb through that much data.
Raise your hand if you believe soe did this out of good will and not in some way to line their own pockets by selling your data. Something tells me this was done to further their RMT goals which is why the study talks about transactions and such.
Well first your response shows that you did not read the post. Where did it just say 60tb of server logs? The other data includes volunary surveys and inquiries. What part of this are you not understanding? The server logs themselves will be under 60 terabytes. Its easy to remove PII from a server log btw. The question is on the contents, which could have filters placed out to exclude names, dates, email addresses, websites, phone numbers..ect. Furthermore, who discusses personal information over a mmorpg? Thats pretty dense in my opinion. Either way, no harm is being done and no one is having their precious data stolen. I dont know if you ever read the EULA and TOS for every game you play, but all of them have the right to what you put in that game via text. Hell I bet many of the games you support have minor data mining going on when you run the game. Hellgate london had it, and quite a few others have it.
Does Sony have something to gain by sharing the data to researchers? Of course, but its not money. Do you know how game design theory started? the answer is "with research". Understanding how players interact over the internet in mmorpgs is the best way to understand how to improve on that facet of gaming, how to push it to the next level and how gaming grows in the public eye. Sony isnt the only one who gains from helping researchers, every mmorpg developing company does. The result of the research is not exclusive.
I feel sorry for people like you who dont read the agreements you make when installing a game, and feel that SOE is the bad one while the rest are good. Start reading those agreements and you will find that by your logic, you should hate every game company in existence.
Don't pull this crap about feeliing sorry for me while you trip over yourself to appologize for this.
You really think there is anywhere close to 60tb of surveys? That would be the most ineffective use of storage space in the history of the internet. Just use a little common sense friend. How would YOU filter out 60tb worth of data? Some sort of automated filter or script? Do you think that is 100% effective? Do you really think people don't talk about real life events with their friends in online games? Again, apply a little common sense. Soe doesn't have the manpower to make some of the most requested changes to eq2, but you think they have extra manpower to scrub 60tb worth of data?
As for the EULA, lets be realisitc ok. Just because soe chose to change an one sided contract mid stream doesn't mean that is has legal standing. Soe can put whatever they want in a eula and you can click accept and guess what, it may not hold up in a court of law. I wish people like you would stop repeating this eula trumps everything nonsense, because it doesn't.
The basic premise of a contract isn't even met, because you as the singer have no bargaining power. Eulas exist to protect their property and nothing more. They do not circumvent real laws. They are not binding contracts beyond normal expectations.
By my logic (as you seem to think you understand) the original eula I signed with soe had nothing about them giving my information out to whomever they please until a few weeks ago when they changed it. I suggest you apply a little logic yourself instead of just flipping on the apathy switch and accepting that this is just how things are. If everyone jumped off a bridge would you?
P.S. speaking of not reading, where did I say server logs?
Rofl, ok . You are trying too hard. You stated that 60tb of data with PII were given away without consent. Fact is, I made it clear that part of it was volunary via surveys. Which means, given that you cannot use process of elimination, that you were referring to server logs, which was the only other non voluntary data given. You said it was 60tb, you were wrong. Will you admit that? Furthermore, in fact by accepting the EULA, it was voluntary for all of it....legally. Every company gives out information to a certain extent. Unless your data log said " i am X from Y and my phone number and address are Z", you are not being personally identified what so ever.
You can argue all you want, try to redirect or change the topic all you want, but you know you are wrong and so does everyone else. A level minded person would admit to such and not really take sides in the matter. Fact is, SOE is not a bad company. They have an unpopular past due to how they were stuctured. Meaning, SOE was run by movie executives, not game producers. There in lay the problem. If you know anything about movie execs...they are pure business men, they have no idea how to make wise game based decisions. The SWG fiasco is due to movie execs in both sony films and lucas arts making the decisions when they shouldnt have. After Sony got a new CEO, a non japanese business man from the UK, restructuring began. Much needed restructuring. SOE was finally put under the game devision, not the film division (as part of interactive entertainment), which was where the problems were coming from.
If for one second you understood thing, as well as understood that the other game companies you support do worse via EULA, then you wouldnt be saying such ignorant things and trying so hard to prove me wrong even though you dodge the previous post with excuses and purposeful misinturpritation.
not a fact but your opinion. my opinion is that SOE is a bad company doing bad business. getting my attention by saying
"we will do this we will do that"
then i buy and then
"oh we changed our minds, no we wont do it, istead we will do the oposite"
Companies giving out personal info is nothing new. They sell your contact info to sales management companies all the time. You will notice waves of new address spam coming into your folder from time to time. They like to say it is some hacker stealing your info and selling it, so no one makes a fuss. Fact is, entertainment is an industry in jeopardy atm. They will sell anything they can to keep afloat till the market stabilizes out.
ok lets try a third time see if you lot can get it trough your thick skulls that some privacy rights ARE INALIENABLE that means you CAN NOT consent to someone else giving your personal information away NO MATTER THE MEDIUM or context EULA's and TOS are designed to SCARE people off taking action you think the police are going to read the news and say oh SOE was a naughty boy lets arrest them an send them to prison /equivalent justice consequence no you have to take action if i had ever played an SOE game id be sueing them right now and they most likelt operate under US law which means SOE could come out with a new owner
and besides the fact it was 60 TB of stuff is not in dispute here its 60TB of what any combination of surveys serverlogs billing information and what not to make up 60TB even uncompressed is alot of data and there is not a machine cheap enough on the entire planet for soe to run a script to scrub all the private data out not with out spending time rending the data down into smaller parts and if they don't have the time to make critical updates to their games where are they going to find the time to A)write the script B)rend the information down into chunks for processing
and anyway just because you have the ability to do something doesn't mean it is right or legal hell murders come up against that problem all the time they have the ability to kill people but its not legal or right to kill people no matter the circumstances and giveing away 60TB of information that has even the remote possibility of containing illegal information is wrong on somany levels it by extension of my previous argument puts SOE on the same level as murderers rapists and kiddiefiddlers
though if you are so intent on believing the shit that EULA's and TOS are binding contracts maybe i should make a game and put in the eula "should we decide that you might have engages in RMT blah blah company has the right to send our private death squads to your house and kill you and all property and assets in your name and your families name would be forfeit to blah blah company" and if you agreed to it i would then have the right to send a death squad to your house and kill you if i thought you were committing RMT in my game it would be a corporatist state i would be a god on earth anyone who played the game would be at my mercy it would be wonderful i would be the decider of life and death and i would become more wealthy with every person i killed
but alas it is but a dream noone would accept such an agreement ... or would they...
Originally posted by Rabenwolf Rofl, ok . You are trying too hard. You stated that 60tb of data with PII were given away without consent. Fact is, I made it clear that part of it was volunary via surveys. Which means, given that you cannot use process of elimination, that you were referring to server logs, which was the only other non voluntary data given. You said it was 60tb, you were wrong. Will you admit that? Furthermore, in fact by accepting the EULA, it was voluntary for all of it....legally. Every company gives out information to a certain extent. Unless your data log said " i am X from Y and my phone number and address are Z", you are not being personally identified what so ever. You can argue all you want, try to redirect or change the topic all you want, but you know you are wrong and so does everyone else. A level minded person would admit to such and not really take sides in the matter. Fact is, SOE is not a bad company. They have an unpopular past due to how they were stuctured. Meaning, SOE was run by movie executives, not game producers. There in lay the problem. If you know anything about movie execs...they are pure business men, they have no idea how to make wise game based decisions. The SWG fiasco is due to movie execs in both sony films and lucas arts making the decisions when they shouldnt have. After Sony got a new CEO, a non japanese business man from the UK, restructuring began. Much needed restructuring. SOE was finally put under the game devision, not the film division (as part of interactive entertainment), which was where the problems were coming from. If for one second you understood thing, as well as understood that the other game companies you support do worse via EULA, then you wouldnt be saying such ignorant things and trying so hard to prove me wrong even though you dodge the previous post with excuses and purposeful misinturpritation.
It is impossible to have a discussion with you when you cannot even remember what I said. Then you put words into my mouth and launch into some discussion about that as if that is what I said. At least pay attention to what I say before you quote me ok?
For beginners, I never said 60tb worth of personal data. I specifically did not say personal data, because I know that includes far to much information. It is like you purposefully ignore just how much information 60tb is. So what if a small percentage of it was survey information that was volunteered? Do you think surveys take 60tb worth of data? Do you think someone actually went through 60tb worth of data to remove any personally identifiable information? Do you think soe is telling the truth?
It is beyond reason to think that soe did that when they cut corners every chance they get.
Also please don't blame the movie division for soes ethics. They are under new ownership now and that didn't stop them from blindsiding the players with station cash. Nothing has changed, same people in charge doing the same things they always have.
Stop apologizing for them. Just because I don't turn a blind eye to a companies actions and work my hardest to rationalize their actions doesn't mean I am not level headed. Eventually soe will get around to doing something that pushes you over the edge just like they do to most of their customers. I sure hope to not hear you raise any voice of concern then, because you have burned that credibiility already.
First off if you want to complain then first hold your hands up if you have a facebook/myspace/bebo/whatever the latest crap is
They ALL SELL your data. Sell not give a away. Ever noticed how you get a lot of WoW spam and currently seems to be Vangaurd? Yeah gee I wonder who's scanned your profile for ads. Hmm.
Hands up if you USE google. Have google mail. Youtube. Anything regarding google at all. That is all stored. EVERY SINGLE INTERACTION. It is also all sold. For an insanely high profit margin. Oh not to mention if you read the fine print google sends EVERYTHING you do to the US govt.
SO if you use any of the above then shut up. Dont complain. You have no right to. Oh wait WE ALL READ THE TOS DIDNT WE? No? Glossed over that bit where you agree to this? Yeah? Thought so.
I have a facebook, a google account, and serveral other things, but guess what? i use pseudonyms and a set of fictitious personal info I use for those site.
A: Yes, if you use your real name and info on sites like that you are stupid and asking for it
B: if I buy a game and am required to enter REAL personal info, like credit cards, such info is help in trust by the company.
Sure I can't sue them, but that trust is broken, many companies realize this and realize that the short term financial gain is not worth the long term financial loss of such PR getting out.
Also, to anyone who uses the "i have nothing to hide argument", you are stupid, ignorant, and short sighted.
Sure the thought police may not be knocking down your door, but you really like spam/telemarketers calls in the middle of dinner/etc? And what if you have something to hide and don't even know it? And I don't necessarily mean criminally...
People can use shit against you at work, or other places, and if someone wanted to smear you the best way would be take real info about you and wrap it in the smear.
Privacy and the advocates thereof are not liberal whackjobs (or the need for them isn't even if they are), and just being a right wing propaganda-regurjitating puppet doesn't make you immune to identity theft and other nasty things that can happen in this enviroment.
Of all that is written, I love only what a person has written with his own blood. -Nietzsche
ok lets try a third time see if you lot can get it trough your thick skulls that some privacy rights ARE INALIENABLE that means you CAN NOT consent to someone else giving your personal information away NO MATTER THE MEDIUM or context
EULA's and TOS are designed to SCARE people off taking action you think the police are going to read the news and say oh SOE was a naughty boy lets arrest them an send them to prison /equivalent justice consequence no you have to take action if i had ever played an SOE game id be sueing them right now and they most likelt operate under US law which means SOE could come out with a new owner and besides the fact it was 60 TB of stuff is not in dispute here its 60TB of what any combination of surveys serverlogs billing information and what not to make up 60TB even uncompressed is alot of data and there is not a machine cheap enough on the entire planet for soe to run a script to scrub all the private data out not with out spending time rending the data down into smaller parts and if they don't have the time to make critical updates to their games where are they going to find the time to A)write the script B)rend the information down into chunks for processing and anyway just because you have the ability to do something doesn't mean it is right or legal hell murders come up against that problem all the time they have the ability to kill people but its not legal or right to kill people no matter the circumstances and giveing away 60TB of information that has even the remote possibility of containing illegal information is wrong on somany levels it by extension of my previous argument puts SOE on the same level as murderers rapists and kiddiefiddlers though if you are so intent on believing the shit that EULA's and TOS are binding contracts maybe i should make a game and put in the eula "should we decide that you might have engages in RMT blah blah company has the right to send our private death squads to your house and kill you and all property and assets in your name and your families name would be forfeit to blah blah company" and if you agreed to it i would then have the right to send a death squad to your house and kill you if i thought you were committing RMT in my game it would be a corporatist state i would be a god on earth anyone who played the game would be at my mercy it would be wonderful i would be the decider of life and death and i would become more wealthy with every person i killed but alas it is but a dream noone would accept such an agreement ... or would they...
You're so completely and utterly wrong. Go talk to a lawyer or something and see what he says.
Basically everything from personal data, in-game conversations, age, and where the players live or lived, from each and every player who ever played EQ2, has been given away by SoE, for free.
The complete server logs of Everquest 2, which track every action performed in the game. Dmitri Williams introduced the project and described how researchers have been approaching various game developers over the years. He paraphrased the conversation with Sony as: "What do you collect?"
"Well, everything—what do you want?"
"Can we have it all?"
"Sure." The end result is a log that includes four years of data for over 400,000 players that took part in the game, which was followed up with demographic surveys of the users.
Relationships analysis of players: In that week, his team could detect over 2,000 players that became involved in partner relationships and about 2,500 who took part in trade interactions. But distance had a much larger effect; players within 10 kilometers of each other were five times more likely to interact.
This is such .... how they can just get away with giving out 60TB of personal data is just way beyond me.
You really need a reality check, if you bothered to read you would see they removed all names and cleaned data of all personal identifying information this was merged with a VOLUNTARY survey which listed ages, relationships, locations THAT is where that information came from, but I guess using your brain and not your mouth is beyond you.
Hopefully someone will speak up for the gaming community and their rights against SOE. In my opinion, SOE has stepped over the line. Problem is that I don't have the money for court fees nor the legal knowledge.
SOE has taken peoples intertainment to a new level; players being lab rats and the game being the experimental grounds for the rats to run around in.
So how do you like outside psychiatrist/scientists/associate third parties; etc etc, etc...reading all of your chat logs to include private tells then openly catagorizing ya as having psychological problems?
Quote:
Buried among those happy, average players was a small subset of the population—about five percent—who used the game for serious role playing and, according to Williams, "They are psychologically much worse off than the regular players." They belong to marginalized groups, like ethnic and religious minorities and non-heterosexuals, and tended to use the game as a coping mechanism.
End Quote
Quote:
In his view, the data suggests that many studies that report marginal male-female differences in gaming based only on self-reported figures most likely did so based on unreliable numbers. It's entirely possible that a number of other sanity checks on past studies are lurking in this virtual data trove
End Quote
Some people may scoff at these turn of events. Believe me when I say, this is only the beginning. There is ALWAYS a fallout effect and the end result is NEVER good. Remember, book burning, witch hunting sessions. Will you be frightened to openly admit you play in an MMORPG to anyone????
Unfortunately just by using the internet all your data is being kept by your isp and anyone in law enforcement can monitor it without telling you. There is something called Lawful Cable Intercept Packets these usually will not show up when monitoring packets on your computer they were designed to be invisible to people. They are mostly designed to intercept data and voip communications between users without them being aware.
I don't know a whole lot about it and there isn't a whole lot of information. People have used the information in the past and have been caught and fined for doing so.
Originally posted by calranthe You really need a reality check, if you bothered to read you would see they removed all names and cleaned data of all personal identifying information this was merged with a VOLUNTARY survey which listed ages, relationships, locations THAT is where that information came from, but I guess using your brain and not your mouth is beyond you.
Do you have any idea how hard it would be to scrub 60TB of data? You could try to run some sort of matching searches, but there is no way soe could clean that amount of data. How much drive space do you think a few voluntary surveys would take up? Now ask yourself what you think the rest of that data was.
Not that I believe for one second soe would spend the effort to clean 60tb worth of data, let alone do something of this magnitude without some huge payoff for them in return. The end result will be that soe profits and puts their customers at potential risks. I guess that is ok since they updated the EULA 4 years after releasing the product though.
Abstract In the current study, 7,000 players of the massively multiplayer online game (MMO) EverQuest 2 were surveyed about their offline characteristics, their motivations and their physical and mental health.
These self-report data were then combined with data on participants' actual in-game play behaviors, as collected by the game operator.
(Survey) Participants were identified by an unseen account number in Sony's databases. These account numbers were used to unobtrusively link the survey data with the game's databases.
The main measure derived from Sony's databases was total playing time, calculated by averaging the number of cumulative seconds of play over the playing window on each account.
These data were then used to compute the players' average time in the game per week, and were matched back to their entries from the survey. Because players could maintain multiple characters on their account, each character's playing time was collapsed into one metalevel play value for the player.
These calculations occurred within the database and separate from the survey, so subjects were unaware that their time online, their server residence, or their character use were part of the research.
Comments
Raise your hand if you believe soe combed through SIXTY TERABYTES of data to remove personally identifiable information. Something tells me that if they don't have time to add new animations or skeletal revamp, they sure as hell don't have the manpower to comb through that much data.
Raise your hand if you believe soe did this out of good will and not in some way to line their own pockets by selling your data. Something tells me this was done to further their RMT goals which is why the study talks about transactions and such.
Well first your response shows that you did not read the post. Where did it just say 60tb of server logs? The other data includes volunary surveys and inquiries. What part of this are you not understanding? The server logs themselves will be under 60 terabytes. Its easy to remove PII from a server log btw. The question is on the contents, which could have filters placed out to exclude names, dates, email addresses, websites, phone numbers..ect. Furthermore, who discusses personal information over a mmorpg? Thats pretty dense in my opinion. Either way, no harm is being done and no one is having their precious data stolen. I dont know if you ever read the EULA and TOS for every game you play, but all of them have the right to what you put in that game via text. Hell I bet many of the games you support have minor data mining going on when you run the game. Hellgate london had it, and quite a few others have it.
Does Sony have something to gain by sharing the data to researchers? Of course, but its not money. Do you know how game design theory started? the answer is "with research". Understanding how players interact over the internet in mmorpgs is the best way to understand how to improve on that facet of gaming, how to push it to the next level and how gaming grows in the public eye. Sony isnt the only one who gains from helping researchers, every mmorpg developing company does. The result of the research is not exclusive.
I feel sorry for people like you who dont read the agreements you make when installing a game, and feel that SOE is the bad one while the rest are good. Start reading those agreements and you will find that by your logic, you should hate every game company in existence.
Don't pull this crap about feeliing sorry for me while you trip over yourself to appologize for this.
You really think there is anywhere close to 60tb of surveys? That would be the most ineffective use of storage space in the history of the internet. Just use a little common sense friend. How would YOU filter out 60tb worth of data? Some sort of automated filter or script? Do you think that is 100% effective? Do you really think people don't talk about real life events with their friends in online games? Again, apply a little common sense. Soe doesn't have the manpower to make some of the most requested changes to eq2, but you think they have extra manpower to scrub 60tb worth of data?
As for the EULA, lets be realisitc ok. Just because soe chose to change an one sided contract mid stream doesn't mean that is has legal standing. Soe can put whatever they want in a eula and you can click accept and guess what, it may not hold up in a court of law. I wish people like you would stop repeating this eula trumps everything nonsense, because it doesn't.
The basic premise of a contract isn't even met, because you as the singer have no bargaining power. Eulas exist to protect their property and nothing more. They do not circumvent real laws. They are not binding contracts beyond normal expectations.
By my logic (as you seem to think you understand) the original eula I signed with soe had nothing about them giving my information out to whomever they please until a few weeks ago when they changed it. I suggest you apply a little logic yourself instead of just flipping on the apathy switch and accepting that this is just how things are. If everyone jumped off a bridge would you?
P.S. speaking of not reading, where did I say server logs?
Rofl, ok . You are trying too hard. You stated that 60tb of data with PII were given away without consent. Fact is, I made it clear that part of it was volunary via surveys. Which means, given that you cannot use process of elimination, that you were referring to server logs, which was the only other non voluntary data given. You said it was 60tb, you were wrong. Will you admit that? Furthermore, in fact by accepting the EULA, it was voluntary for all of it....legally. Every company gives out information to a certain extent. Unless your data log said " i am X from Y and my phone number and address are Z", you are not being personally identified what so ever.
You can argue all you want, try to redirect or change the topic all you want, but you know you are wrong and so does everyone else. A level minded person would admit to such and not really take sides in the matter. Fact is, SOE is not a bad company. They have an unpopular past due to how they were stuctured. Meaning, SOE was run by movie executives, not game producers. There in lay the problem. If you know anything about movie execs...they are pure business men, they have no idea how to make wise game based decisions. The SWG fiasco is due to movie execs in both sony films and lucas arts making the decisions when they shouldnt have. After Sony got a new CEO, a non japanese business man from the UK, restructuring began. Much needed restructuring. SOE was finally put under the game devision, not the film division (as part of interactive entertainment), which was where the problems were coming from.
If for one second you understood thing, as well as understood that the other game companies you support do worse via EULA, then you wouldnt be saying such ignorant things and trying so hard to prove me wrong even though you dodge the previous post with excuses and purposeful misinturpritation.
Raise your hand if you believe soe combed through SIXTY TERABYTES of data to remove personally identifiable information. Something tells me that if they don't have time to add new animations or skeletal revamp, they sure as hell don't have the manpower to comb through that much data.
Raise your hand if you believe soe did this out of good will and not in some way to line their own pockets by selling your data. Something tells me this was done to further their RMT goals which is why the study talks about transactions and such.
Well first your response shows that you did not read the post. Where did it just say 60tb of server logs? The other data includes volunary surveys and inquiries. What part of this are you not understanding? The server logs themselves will be under 60 terabytes. Its easy to remove PII from a server log btw. The question is on the contents, which could have filters placed out to exclude names, dates, email addresses, websites, phone numbers..ect. Furthermore, who discusses personal information over a mmorpg? Thats pretty dense in my opinion. Either way, no harm is being done and no one is having their precious data stolen. I dont know if you ever read the EULA and TOS for every game you play, but all of them have the right to what you put in that game via text. Hell I bet many of the games you support have minor data mining going on when you run the game. Hellgate london had it, and quite a few others have it.
Does Sony have something to gain by sharing the data to researchers? Of course, but its not money. Do you know how game design theory started? the answer is "with research". Understanding how players interact over the internet in mmorpgs is the best way to understand how to improve on that facet of gaming, how to push it to the next level and how gaming grows in the public eye. Sony isnt the only one who gains from helping researchers, every mmorpg developing company does. The result of the research is not exclusive.
I feel sorry for people like you who dont read the agreements you make when installing a game, and feel that SOE is the bad one while the rest are good. Start reading those agreements and you will find that by your logic, you should hate every game company in existence.
Don't pull this crap about feeliing sorry for me while you trip over yourself to appologize for this.
You really think there is anywhere close to 60tb of surveys? That would be the most ineffective use of storage space in the history of the internet. Just use a little common sense friend. How would YOU filter out 60tb worth of data? Some sort of automated filter or script? Do you think that is 100% effective? Do you really think people don't talk about real life events with their friends in online games? Again, apply a little common sense. Soe doesn't have the manpower to make some of the most requested changes to eq2, but you think they have extra manpower to scrub 60tb worth of data?
As for the EULA, lets be realisitc ok. Just because soe chose to change an one sided contract mid stream doesn't mean that is has legal standing. Soe can put whatever they want in a eula and you can click accept and guess what, it may not hold up in a court of law. I wish people like you would stop repeating this eula trumps everything nonsense, because it doesn't.
The basic premise of a contract isn't even met, because you as the singer have no bargaining power. Eulas exist to protect their property and nothing more. They do not circumvent real laws. They are not binding contracts beyond normal expectations.
By my logic (as you seem to think you understand) the original eula I signed with soe had nothing about them giving my information out to whomever they please until a few weeks ago when they changed it. I suggest you apply a little logic yourself instead of just flipping on the apathy switch and accepting that this is just how things are. If everyone jumped off a bridge would you?
P.S. speaking of not reading, where did I say server logs?
Rofl, ok . You are trying too hard. You stated that 60tb of data with PII were given away without consent. Fact is, I made it clear that part of it was volunary via surveys. Which means, given that you cannot use process of elimination, that you were referring to server logs, which was the only other non voluntary data given. You said it was 60tb, you were wrong. Will you admit that? Furthermore, in fact by accepting the EULA, it was voluntary for all of it....legally. Every company gives out information to a certain extent. Unless your data log said " i am X from Y and my phone number and address are Z", you are not being personally identified what so ever.
You can argue all you want, try to redirect or change the topic all you want, but you know you are wrong and so does everyone else. A level minded person would admit to such and not really take sides in the matter. Fact is, SOE is not a bad company. They have an unpopular past due to how they were stuctured. Meaning, SOE was run by movie executives, not game producers. There in lay the problem. If you know anything about movie execs...they are pure business men, they have no idea how to make wise game based decisions. The SWG fiasco is due to movie execs in both sony films and lucas arts making the decisions when they shouldnt have. After Sony got a new CEO, a non japanese business man from the UK, restructuring began. Much needed restructuring. SOE was finally put under the game devision, not the film division (as part of interactive entertainment), which was where the problems were coming from.
If for one second you understood thing, as well as understood that the other game companies you support do worse via EULA, then you wouldnt be saying such ignorant things and trying so hard to prove me wrong even though you dodge the previous post with excuses and purposeful misinturpritation.
not a fact but your opinion. my opinion is that SOE is a bad company doing bad business. getting my attention by saying
"we will do this we will do that"
then i buy and then
"oh we changed our minds, no we wont do it, istead we will do the oposite"
"oh well then can i have my money back?"
"no..."
in my opinions its bad business.
Companies giving out personal info is nothing new. They sell your contact info to sales management companies all the time. You will notice waves of new address spam coming into your folder from time to time. They like to say it is some hacker stealing your info and selling it, so no one makes a fuss. Fact is, entertainment is an industry in jeopardy atm. They will sell anything they can to keep afloat till the market stabilizes out.
ok lets try a third time see if you lot can get it trough your thick skulls that some privacy rights ARE INALIENABLE that means you CAN NOT consent to someone else giving your personal information away NO MATTER THE MEDIUM or context
EULA's and TOS are designed to SCARE people off taking action you think the police are going to read the news and say oh SOE was a naughty boy lets arrest them an send them to prison /equivalent justice consequence no you have to take action if i had ever played an SOE game id be sueing them right now and they most likelt operate under US law which means SOE could come out with a new owner
and besides the fact it was 60 TB of stuff is not in dispute here its 60TB of what any combination of surveys serverlogs billing information and what not to make up 60TB even uncompressed is alot of data and there is not a machine cheap enough on the entire planet for soe to run a script to scrub all the private data out not with out spending time rending the data down into smaller parts and if they don't have the time to make critical updates to their games where are they going to find the time to A)write the script B)rend the information down into chunks for processing
and anyway just because you have the ability to do something doesn't mean it is right or legal hell murders come up against that problem all the time they have the ability to kill people but its not legal or right to kill people no matter the circumstances and giveing away 60TB of information that has even the remote possibility of containing illegal information is wrong on somany levels it by extension of my previous argument puts SOE on the same level as murderers rapists and kiddiefiddlers
though if you are so intent on believing the shit that EULA's and TOS are binding contracts maybe i should make a game and put in the eula "should we decide that you might have engages in RMT blah blah company has the right to send our private death squads to your house and kill you and all property and assets in your name and your families name would be forfeit to blah blah company" and if you agreed to it i would then have the right to send a death squad to your house and kill you if i thought you were committing RMT in my game it would be a corporatist state i would be a god on earth anyone who played the game would be at my mercy it would be wonderful i would be the decider of life and death and i would become more wealthy with every person i killed
but alas it is but a dream noone would accept such an agreement ... or would they...
It is impossible to have a discussion with you when you cannot even remember what I said. Then you put words into my mouth and launch into some discussion about that as if that is what I said. At least pay attention to what I say before you quote me ok?
For beginners, I never said 60tb worth of personal data. I specifically did not say personal data, because I know that includes far to much information. It is like you purposefully ignore just how much information 60tb is. So what if a small percentage of it was survey information that was volunteered? Do you think surveys take 60tb worth of data? Do you think someone actually went through 60tb worth of data to remove any personally identifiable information? Do you think soe is telling the truth?
It is beyond reason to think that soe did that when they cut corners every chance they get.
Also please don't blame the movie division for soes ethics. They are under new ownership now and that didn't stop them from blindsiding the players with station cash. Nothing has changed, same people in charge doing the same things they always have.
Stop apologizing for them. Just because I don't turn a blind eye to a companies actions and work my hardest to rationalize their actions doesn't mean I am not level headed. Eventually soe will get around to doing something that pushes you over the edge just like they do to most of their customers. I sure hope to not hear you raise any voice of concern then, because you have burned that credibiility already.
I have a facebook, a google account, and serveral other things, but guess what? i use pseudonyms and a set of fictitious personal info I use for those site.
A: Yes, if you use your real name and info on sites like that you are stupid and asking for it
B: if I buy a game and am required to enter REAL personal info, like credit cards, such info is help in trust by the company.
Sure I can't sue them, but that trust is broken, many companies realize this and realize that the short term financial gain is not worth the long term financial loss of such PR getting out.
Also, to anyone who uses the "i have nothing to hide argument", you are stupid, ignorant, and short sighted.
Sure the thought police may not be knocking down your door, but you really like spam/telemarketers calls in the middle of dinner/etc? And what if you have something to hide and don't even know it? And I don't necessarily mean criminally...
People can use shit against you at work, or other places, and if someone wanted to smear you the best way would be take real info about you and wrap it in the smear.
Privacy and the advocates thereof are not liberal whackjobs (or the need for them isn't even if they are), and just being a right wing propaganda-regurjitating puppet doesn't make you immune to identity theft and other nasty things that can happen in this enviroment.
Of all that is written, I love only what a person has written with his own blood. -Nietzsche
link to the actual study
Who plays, how much, and why? Debunking the stereotypical gamer profile
Dmitri Williams a Nick Yee b Scott E. Caplan c
www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/fulltext/121394419/HTMLSTART
EQ2 fan sites
You're so completely and utterly wrong. Go talk to a lawyer or something and see what he says.
Lol no doubt, sheesh talk about some mass paranoia.
Take a look a few posts earlier, someone linked the actual study this data was used for.
Now die thread, DIE!
You really need a reality check, if you bothered to read you would see they removed all names and cleaned data of all personal identifying information this was merged with a VOLUNTARY survey which listed ages, relationships, locations THAT is where that information came from, but I guess using your brain and not your mouth is beyond you.
Hopefully someone will speak up for the gaming community and their rights against SOE. In my opinion, SOE has stepped over the line. Problem is that I don't have the money for court fees nor the legal knowledge.
http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2009/02/aaas-60tb-of-behavioral-data-the-everquest-2-server-logs.ars
SOE has taken peoples intertainment to a new level; players being lab rats and the game being the experimental grounds for the rats to run around in.
So how do you like outside psychiatrist/scientists/associate third parties; etc etc, etc...reading all of your chat logs to include private tells then openly catagorizing ya as having psychological problems?
Quote:
Buried among those happy, average players was a small subset of the population—about five percent—who used the game for serious role playing and, according to Williams, "They are psychologically much worse off than the regular players." They belong to marginalized groups, like ethnic and religious minorities and non-heterosexuals, and tended to use the game as a coping mechanism.
End Quote
Quote:
In his view, the data suggests that many studies that report marginal male-female differences in gaming based only on self-reported figures most likely did so based on unreliable numbers. It's entirely possible that a number of other sanity checks on past studies are lurking in this virtual data trove
End Quote
Some people may scoff at these turn of events. Believe me when I say, this is only the beginning. There is ALWAYS a fallout effect and the end result is NEVER good. Remember, book burning, witch hunting sessions. Will you be frightened to openly admit you play in an MMORPG to anyone????
Unfortunately just by using the internet all your data is being kept by your isp and anyone in law enforcement can monitor it without telling you. There is something called Lawful Cable Intercept Packets these usually will not show up when monitoring packets on your computer they were designed to be invisible to people. They are mostly designed to intercept data and voip communications between users without them being aware.
I don't know a whole lot about it and there isn't a whole lot of information. People have used the information in the past and have been caught and fined for doing so.
Do you have any idea how hard it would be to scrub 60TB of data? You could try to run some sort of matching searches, but there is no way soe could clean that amount of data. How much drive space do you think a few voluntary surveys would take up? Now ask yourself what you think the rest of that data was.
Not that I believe for one second soe would spend the effort to clean 60tb worth of data, let alone do something of this magnitude without some huge payoff for them in return. The end result will be that soe profits and puts their customers at potential risks. I guess that is ok since they updated the EULA 4 years after releasing the product though.
Isn't this illegal?
Oh well, at least I RP'ed big-time in SWG; never played the others.
as I posted elsewhere, excerpts from the actual study
goto link if you want to read the full study
its much more informative than ars technica news article,
regarding how and what data was used
www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/fulltext/121394419/HTMLSTART
EQ2 fan sites
lol anybody else getting a REALLY cheap laugh at some of these privacy zealots?
after 6 or so years, I had to change it a little...