Originally posted by Zindaihas Actually, the second amendment exists primarily as a means of self defense and as a potential counter to a tyrannical government. Think about it, in a society where its citizens are not allowed to possess firearms, what measure do they have against a govt that oppresses its people?
Seriously?
You think you can actually do anything against a highly trained marine corps if only you had a rifle in your basement?
now thats funny.
Seriously? You're apparently thinking in terms of the current climate of the nation. We're nowhere near that point presently. Besides, our government is so deep in debt, by the time we get there, if we ever do, our military will be fighting with slingshots.
Originally posted by Zindaihas Actually, the second amendment exists primarily as a means of self defense and as a potential counter to a tyrannical government. Think about it, in a society where its citizens are not allowed to possess firearms, what measure do they have against a govt that oppresses its people?
Seriously?
You think you can actually do anything against a highly trained marine corps if only you had a rifle in your basement? now thats funny.
Seriously? You're apparently thinking in terms of the current climate of the nation. We're nowhere near that point presently. Besides, our government is so deep in debt, by the time we get there, if we ever do, our military will be fighting with slingshots.
Quippy, but delusional to a great degree. Military needs will always be met first and foremost. If you haven't learned anything watching this current bailout situation, it's that the military is getting all the money it needs while everyone else is fighting over funding.
Based on the lessons the country has learned since the Revolutionary and Civil Wars about fighting inside our own country, you can bet any one of these crackpot "teabaggers" or "revolutionaries" thinking their rifles and poor skills will be effective against the military is sadly mistaken. They will be crushed in days.
They seem to think that it's somehow analogous to Revolutionary times when people pretty much knew their neighbors. The military would quickly ferret out any soldiers with any kind of "state loyalty" and either deploy them elsewhere (like someone from Texas gets shipped to Germany, so they can't be involved in any possible fighting) or they'd FEMA camp them. (that one is for the paranoid people, lol)
Actually, the second amendment exists primarily as a means of self defense and as a potential counter to a tyrannical government. Think about it, in a society where its citizens are not allowed to possess firearms, what measure do they have against a govt that oppresses its people?
Seriously?
You think you can actually do anything against a highly trained marine corps if only you had a rifle in your basement?
now thats funny.
Seriously? You're apparently thinking in terms of the current climate of the nation. We're nowhere near that point presently. Besides, our government is so deep in debt, by the time we get there, if we ever do, our military will be fighting with slingshots.
Quippy, but delusional to a great degree. Military needs will always be met first and foremost. If you haven't learned anything watching this current bailout situation, it's that the military is getting all the money it needs while everyone else is fighting over funding.
Based on the lessons the country has learned since the Revolutionary and Civil Wars about fighting inside our own country, you can bet any one of these crackpot "teabaggers" or "revolutionaries" thinking their rifles and poor skills will be effective against the military is sadly mistaken. They will be crushed in days.
They seem to think that it's somehow analogous to Revolutionary times when people pretty much knew their neighbors. The military would quickly ferret out any soldiers with any kind of "state loyalty" and either deploy them elsewhere (like someone from Texas gets shipped to Germany, so they can't be involved in any possible fighting) or they'd FEMA camp them. (that one is for the paranoid people, lol)
You too, pop, are thinking in a vacuum. As though all other conditions in the country, with the exception of the civil unrest, would be as they are right now. What would it take to get us to that point? Well, the country would look much different than it does today. $11 trillion in debt when the economy is relatively healthy is one thing; $11 trillion in debt when the economy is in ruin is quite another. Don't forget, the United States military is equipped by civilian companies. Do you think it would be as easily supplied in a state of unrest as it is now? On top of that, military equippment is delicate. Without regular maintanence, it quickly falls into a condition of disrepair. Opponents of the government would no doubt seize some of the manufacturing plants and be able to make weapons of their own. That, of course, is assuming that the raw materials to make the stuff was still being mined.
Keep in mind, people, I am not forecasting anything here, I'm simply trying to envision a possible future scenario. No one knows what the future holds.
You too, pop, are thinking in a vacuum. As though all other conditions in the country, with the exception of the civil unrest, would be as they are right now. What would it take to get us to that point? Well, the country would look much different than it does today. $11 trillion in debt when the economy is relatively healthy is one thing; $11 trillion in debt when the economy is in ruin is quite another. Don't forget, the United States military is equipped by civilian companies. Do you think it would be as easily supplied in a state of unrest as it is now? On top of that, military equippment is delicate. Without regular maintanence, it quickly falls into a condition of disrepair. Opponents of the government would no doubt seize some of the manufacturing plants and be able to make weapons of their own. That, of course, is assuming that the raw materials to make the stuff was still being mined. Keep in mind, people, I am not forecasting anything here, I'm simply trying to envision a possible future scenario. No one knows what the future holds.
Understood. You are giving one possible "timeline" based on a myriad of conditions being met, as unlikely as many of them are. (no one mining resources?)
Basically, your version sounds like rather a "Mad Maxian" type environment with a governmental breakdown due to economics. You then assume that the military would be able to meet hardly any of its necessary points to remain a functioning part of the government as a whole. The United States government would never allow this.
This is where things like martial law and imminent domain come into play. The government would simply take whatever it needed in your scenario and resources would never be a problem. Companies would be forced to produce things and maintain things under penalty of treason in an obvious time of war which you describe. Wages would be governmentally capped and earnings for companies a non-issue. They would get what the government allowed them to make. Whether citizens felt it was right or not, they'd be forced to work certain jobs or someone else would take it.
There is no way even half of the population could overthrown the 1.5 million people we have in our military under ANY circumstances. There would be hundreds of fractional voices all asking for different things based on what their ideologies were. Look at the recent "teaparties" for proof of that. Skinheads, Ron Paul groups, Fox Newsers, Catholic groups, Libertarians, militia groups.. one big mass of nonsense with no leader. Now imagine this same deluded rabble in a time of war. It would resemble warfare in Warhammer now. A WB made up of a team of healers, ranged DPS, and tanks with Ventrilo vs a PUG with no healers and all Choppas, with just as predictable an outcome.
If the U.S. constitution allows for states to snatch land now for shopping malls and roadways as is going on, what do you think would happen in your world? Rights would be severely restricted, and gun laws would go poof overnight. Actually, they wouldn't even need the people to support a gun ban at that point. You can bet anyone still in Congress would be strongarmed into voting unanimously to amend the Constitution and the "right to bear arms" would be permanently amended from this time forward, simply because the very same "patriots" who were claiming rights were hoarding up guns, then tried a revolution against the lawfully elected government.
Now that I think about that, if these crazy ass Militia groups keep going on the way they do, yelling about teaparties, revolutions and hording guns/ammo, they will probably try and take it to the next level at some point. Sooner or later, a few of them will go batshit and then poof!... no more gun rights due to the Patriot Act and civil unrest.
If any militias in Idaho, Minnesota, Kentucky, Arizona, Texas, Wyoming, Mississipi, etc are reading this, Obama is trying to take your guns and bullets!
What does that link have to do with a persons ability to do a task like reloading ammunition? About the closest that document comes to talking about the mental capacity and tasks is on the subject of employment. I would have sworn that the numbers I was about to read would be abysmal at best from your arguments thus far on why criminals couldn't load or make their own ammunition.
I guess I'll have to say you are right...
Mental retardation and mental illness in its many forms have absolutely nothing to do with a person's ability to make ammunition because its so easy. Yep, anyone can make ammo regardless of level of mental illness or attention span. I really can see the nation's criminals being able to do this with the ease you have been suggesting all throughout this post without any proof whatsoever. /insanity off.
You keep going off the subject and arguing the stupid point. Even if they could make their own ammo, they wouldn't, which is my point to you. So the price of ammo a box goes from $20 to $100 overnight and all the rounds are now etched with serials. Big deal. Criminals would STILL buy it someplace and there would always be someone to illegally make it if stores suddenly couldn't sell it anymore due to cost increases. It would be expensive, but since they are robbing and stealing to fund their robbing and stealing in the first place, it's not like it blows their budgeting spreadsheet through the window, lol. I simply have no idea why you don't realize this. They would not, and in most cases, cannot make their own ammunition.
The average criminal wouldn't carry any more ammunition on them than the average cop, which is one full magazine in the weapon and two spare magazines. Cops don't ride around with more than that and boxes of ammo in the trunk. 33 handgun rounds probably max not counting shotguns/rifles (look at a cop the next time one gets out of the car). Criminals would have FAR less than that, usually one full round in the weapon and MAYBE another clip.. but usually not. Why would they buy something to make tons of ammo and go through all that nonsense for what they do? One box of 50 holds them for a LONG time.
abys·mal
Pronunciation: ?-?biz-m?l, a-
Function: adjective
Date: circa 1656
1 a: having immense or fathomless extension downward, backward, or inward <an abysmal cliff> b: immeasurably great : profound <abysmal ignorance> c: immeasurably low or wretched <abysmal living conditions of the poor>
Hmm.. you don't think the linked info on numbers regarding the rise in mental illness cases amongst our nation's prisons are "abysmal"? I'm not sure why you find numbers like below so cheery and optimistic. I figured you weren't sure of that adjective abysmal, so I put it here to see if you think it was actually the correct one to use.
At midyear 2005 more than half of all prison and jail inmates had a mental health problem, including 705,600 inmates in State prisons, 78,800 in Federal prisons, and 479,900 in local jails.
These estimates represented 56% of State prisoners, 45% of Federal prisoners, and 64% of jail inmates. The findings in this report were based on data from personal interviews with State and Federal prisoners in 2004 and local jail inmates in 2002.
If you don't find those recent statistics "abysmal", you could put Anthony Robbins out of business.
I swear the more I read what you say, I'm convinced you live on some farm and just get everything from Fox News and the internet. While that's nothing to be ashamed of, it leaves you woefully unable to back any points properly, because it's something you READ or HEARD one time, then you rehash someone else's point without understanding how they got their in the first place.
You have provided nothing remotely close to a fact or link this entire time and your whole arguments have been based on opinions. I think I'll stop now, because to present you with various information is useless because it just doesn't stack up to what's inside your head, no matter what you read or skim through.
I'm not, never have been, never will debate if prisoners have A.D.D. or whatever you want to say or show them as having. I wouldn't make a rebuttal to something like. My problem was you made a personal opinion of what you think criminals are capable of like it's fact and are passing it off to support something you probably believe should take place. It's even more ironic that you used works like ignorance in defense of those comments. You said the garbage not me.
Here's another addition that shows how off the wall your reasoning is.
Since you seem to think that these people could never hold a job, figure out how to work a reloader, or circumvent serials cause they are, to lazy, dumb, retarded, and A.D.D. afflicted. I wonder how many of these people in your study actually had some form of employment prior to going to jail/prison. Which is the closest your link comes to charting criminal mental disorders and their abilities to preform a task.
Taken straight from your study.
An estimated 70% of State prisoners who had a mental
health problem, compared to 76% of those without,
said they were employed in the month before their
arrest. Among Federal prisoners, 68% of those who
had a mental health problem were employed, compared
to 76% of those who did not have a mental problem.
Among jail inmates, 69% of those who had a mental
health problem reported that they were employed,
while 76% of those without were employed in the
month before their arrest.
Of State prisoners who had a mental health problem,
65% had received income from wages or salary in the
month before their arrest. This percentage was
larger for inmates without a mental health problem
(71%). Over a quarter (28%) of State prisoners who
had a mental health problem reported income from
illegal sources, compared to around a fifth (21%)
of State prisoners without a mental problem.
No I don't see those numbers as abysmal. You said something off the wall trying to validate why a course of action should be accepted.
P.S. Just to humor your ranting presses and kits. Most sporting goods stores that carry guns or ammunition probably carry these. The kits would definately pay for themselves while also having everything you need short of dye, primers, brass, powder, bullet. Need to know specifics about type for any of those look in a loading manual. An example of how simple the process of prep and combining the parts would look something like this.
I'm not, never have been, never will debate if prisoners have A.D.D. or whatever you want to say or show them as having. I wouldn't make a rebuttal to something like. My problem was you made a personal opinion of what you think criminals are capable of like it's fact and are passing it off to support something you probably believe should take place. It's even more ironic that you used works like ignorance in defense of those comments. You said the garbage not me.
Here's another addition that shows how off the wall your reasoning is.
Since you seem to think that these people could never hold a job, figure out how to work a reloader, or circumvent serials cause they are, to lazy, dumb, retarded, and A.D.D. afflicted. I wonder how many of these people in your study actually had some form of employment prior to going to jail/prison. Which is the closest your link comes to charting criminal mental disorders and their abilities to preform a task.
Taken straight from your study.
An estimated 70% of State prisoners who had a mental
health problem, compared to 76% of those without,
said they were employed in the month before their
arrest. Among Federal prisoners, 68% of those who
had a mental health problem were employed, compared
to 76% of those who did not have a mental problem.
Among jail inmates, 69% of those who had a mental
health problem reported that they were employed,
while 76% of those without were employed in the
month before their arrest.
Of State prisoners who had a mental health problem,
65% had received income from wages or salary in the
month before their arrest. This percentage was
larger for inmates without a mental health problem
(71%). Over a quarter (28%) of State prisoners who
had a mental health problem reported income from
illegal sources, compared to around a fifth (21%)
of State prisoners without a mental problem.
No I don't see those numbers as abysmal. You said something off the wall trying to validate why a course of action should be accepted.
P.S. Just to humor your ranting presses and kits. Most sporting goods stores that carry guns or ammunition probably carry these. The kits would definately pay for themselves while also having everything you need short of dye, primers, brass, powder, bullet. Need to know specifics about type for any of those look in a loading manual. An example of how simple the process of prep and combining the parts would look something like this.
Flipping burgers, or working construction don't require much. Mental health patients "said" they had a job is another point you need to consider. I've worked with mentally ill people when I was a teenager. We had one guy who worked one day a week and generally he would have a hangover or be drunk when he showed up.
furthermore, holding a job and having a job are different things all together. You have a job for a week, get fired and say you worked that month. The particular statistics you quoted seem too ambiguous for the argument your trying to make.
I think popinjays dealt with every argument you've made and you've yet to come up with anything new. Its just the same issues being shot down over and over.
after 6 or so years, I had to change it a little...
I'm not, never have been, never will debate if prisoners have A.D.D. or whatever you want to say or show them as having. I wouldn't make a rebuttal to something like. My problem was you made a personal opinion of what you think criminals are capable of like it's fact and are passing it off to support something you probably believe should take place. It's even more ironic that you used works like ignorance in defense of those comments. You said the garbage not me.
Here's another addition that shows how off the wall your reasoning is.
Since you seem to think that these people could never hold a job, figure out how to work a reloader, or circumvent serials cause they are, to lazy, dumb, retarded, and A.D.D. afflicted. I wonder how many of these people in your study actually had some form of employment prior to going to jail/prison. Which is the closest your link comes to charting criminal mental disorders and their abilities to preform a task.
Taken straight from your study.
An estimated 70% of State prisoners who had a mental
health problem, compared to 76% of those without,
said they were employed in the month before their
arrest. Among Federal prisoners, 68% of those who
had a mental health problem were employed, compared
to 76% of those who did not have a mental problem.
Among jail inmates, 69% of those who had a mental
health problem reported that they were employed,
while 76% of those without were employed in the
month before their arrest.
Of State prisoners who had a mental health problem,
65% had received income from wages or salary in the
month before their arrest. This percentage was
larger for inmates without a mental health problem
(71%). Over a quarter (28%) of State prisoners who
had a mental health problem reported income from
illegal sources, compared to around a fifth (21%)
of State prisoners without a mental problem.
No I don't see those numbers as abysmal. You said something off the wall trying to validate why a course of action should be accepted.
P.S. Just to humor your ranting presses and kits. Most sporting goods stores that carry guns or ammunition probably carry these. The kits would definately pay for themselves while also having everything you need short of dye, primers, brass, powder, bullet. Need to know specifics about type for any of those look in a loading manual. An example of how simple the process of prep and combining the parts would look something like this.
Flipping burgers, or working construction don't require much. Mental health patients "said" they had a job is another point you need to consider. I've worked with mentally ill people when I was a teenager. We had one guy who worked one day a week and generally he would have a hangover or be drunk when he showed up.
furthermore, holding a job and having a job are different things all together. You have a job for a week, get fired and say you worked that month. The particular statistics you quoted seem too ambiguous for the argument your trying to make.
I think popinjays dealt with every argument you've made and you've yet to come up with anything new. Its just the same issues being shot down over and over.
Way to be oblivious! I wouldn't even say anything if he wasn't trying to defend those comments or twist something I said out of context or turn it into a totally different matter. Just like you just did. Sometimes I do end up sticking my foot in my mouth (and I am big enough to admit it), it is not happeing in this case. Because I know better than to believe his reasons to support tagging, serials,(whatever you want to call it) on ammo.
" Reloads: The average person has no idea how to reload. The average criminal is dumber and lazier than the average person, or they would be making money legitimately somehow already on some job. These guys would not be able to mass produce their own rounds worth anything and half of them would misfire or blow themselves up in some way. Heck, most law abiding citizens have no idea about loads. This is a SMALL concern.
Altering rounds. 50 bullets to a box. 20 boxes to a case. 1,000 rounds. You really think most criminals, who are already A.D.D. afflicted, slightly retarded and lazy are going to sit around and file off 1,000 rounds in a sitting? Maybe a hitman might. But the majority of criminals won't. Ironically, I bet they'd get a job before doing something as tedious and time consuming as this would be. I think this is an even smaller concern than the reload issue. "
If that reasoning was sound, we wouldn't have a drug problem in the U.S. (because we all know god spawns a persons fix for them), prohibition would have worked, crime in general would be all but non-exsistant, and people who support guns wouldn't have organizations like the NRA (who take bullshit logic like this and wipe their ass with it in courts). And funny enough criminals who are so lazy,stupid, retarded, and A.D.D. afflicted that they couldn't hold a job, yet in his very same document and a good part of his defense thus far has been off those articles adn they say otherwise.
With that said I am pretty much done here. Tired of him trying to get me to trap myself in his flawed logic, tired of him spinning what I say into something I didn't , and tired of you at this point jumping in for the second time and me having yet to correct you again because you ae oblivious to the context of the posts. piss off
Originally posted by Munki Well that ended more gracefully than most... lol Anywho, there was a lot said and I think popinjay gave some solid discussion from a side that's usually under-represented on these forums :P I know I've walked away with some ideas I hadn't thought of before.
Thanks, I always wondering why there was such a strong pro-gun presence on many gaming forums. I won't make the unsubstantiated claims that video games cause violence though, lol.
But I do think guns in the U.S. is a growing concern in many respects, not just the actual crimes. It's the culture mindset of fear that is/has been growing since 9/11. An awful lot of Americans think everyone except their neighbor is a suspect, but I have no idea why. There is a strong undercurrent of fear that is being fanned by a lot of people who have a financial interest (gun lobbies, gun makers, news organizations for ratings) that would have the American public think death is right around the corner. They do this ever couple of years. It's fasicm, then communism, then recreational drugs, then crime, then steroids, then terrorism. "They" always come up with something so they can sell you something.
I do not believe there is one solution to this problem but there are many things we can do to ease it. First and foremost is to limit the amount of weapons out there. It's sheer madness to think you can solve someone's fear problem of being the victim of gun violence by providing MORE guns. That is lunacy.
I think programs like this can be helpful with other measures. We need to tighten up the rules and perhaps down the line offer something like this with serial tracking to discourage more panicked gun buying. The fastest way to get people to give up vices and dangerous, unseemly things is to tax it. Right now with smoking, they are taxing the hell out of it. People still determined to smoke WILL smoke, but lots of other who are just starting or thinking of quitting are finding it easier due to the increased cost.
Heck, even a buyback program like this one I'd vote for.
I am reminded of the post-apocalyptic episode of Family Guy where Peter destroys all the irrigation pipes and makes guns out of them, therefore helping to utterly destroy the town that was built there.
My blog is a continuing story of what MMO's should be like.
Comments
Seriously?
You think you can actually do anything against a highly trained marine corps if only you had a rifle in your basement?
now thats funny.
Seriously? You're apparently thinking in terms of the current climate of the nation. We're nowhere near that point presently. Besides, our government is so deep in debt, by the time we get there, if we ever do, our military will be fighting with slingshots.
Quippy, but delusional to a great degree. Military needs will always be met first and foremost. If you haven't learned anything watching this current bailout situation, it's that the military is getting all the money it needs while everyone else is fighting over funding.
Based on the lessons the country has learned since the Revolutionary and Civil Wars about fighting inside our own country, you can bet any one of these crackpot "teabaggers" or "revolutionaries" thinking their rifles and poor skills will be effective against the military is sadly mistaken. They will be crushed in days.
They seem to think that it's somehow analogous to Revolutionary times when people pretty much knew their neighbors. The military would quickly ferret out any soldiers with any kind of "state loyalty" and either deploy them elsewhere (like someone from Texas gets shipped to Germany, so they can't be involved in any possible fighting) or they'd FEMA camp them. (that one is for the paranoid people, lol)
"TO MICHAEL!"
Seriously?
You think you can actually do anything against a highly trained marine corps if only you had a rifle in your basement?
now thats funny.
Seriously? You're apparently thinking in terms of the current climate of the nation. We're nowhere near that point presently. Besides, our government is so deep in debt, by the time we get there, if we ever do, our military will be fighting with slingshots.
Quippy, but delusional to a great degree. Military needs will always be met first and foremost. If you haven't learned anything watching this current bailout situation, it's that the military is getting all the money it needs while everyone else is fighting over funding.
Based on the lessons the country has learned since the Revolutionary and Civil Wars about fighting inside our own country, you can bet any one of these crackpot "teabaggers" or "revolutionaries" thinking their rifles and poor skills will be effective against the military is sadly mistaken. They will be crushed in days.
They seem to think that it's somehow analogous to Revolutionary times when people pretty much knew their neighbors. The military would quickly ferret out any soldiers with any kind of "state loyalty" and either deploy them elsewhere (like someone from Texas gets shipped to Germany, so they can't be involved in any possible fighting) or they'd FEMA camp them. (that one is for the paranoid people, lol)
You too, pop, are thinking in a vacuum. As though all other conditions in the country, with the exception of the civil unrest, would be as they are right now. What would it take to get us to that point? Well, the country would look much different than it does today. $11 trillion in debt when the economy is relatively healthy is one thing; $11 trillion in debt when the economy is in ruin is quite another. Don't forget, the United States military is equipped by civilian companies. Do you think it would be as easily supplied in a state of unrest as it is now? On top of that, military equippment is delicate. Without regular maintanence, it quickly falls into a condition of disrepair. Opponents of the government would no doubt seize some of the manufacturing plants and be able to make weapons of their own. That, of course, is assuming that the raw materials to make the stuff was still being mined.
Keep in mind, people, I am not forecasting anything here, I'm simply trying to envision a possible future scenario. No one knows what the future holds.
Understood. You are giving one possible "timeline" based on a myriad of conditions being met, as unlikely as many of them are. (no one mining resources?)
Basically, your version sounds like rather a "Mad Maxian" type environment with a governmental breakdown due to economics. You then assume that the military would be able to meet hardly any of its necessary points to remain a functioning part of the government as a whole. The United States government would never allow this.
This is where things like martial law and imminent domain come into play. The government would simply take whatever it needed in your scenario and resources would never be a problem. Companies would be forced to produce things and maintain things under penalty of treason in an obvious time of war which you describe. Wages would be governmentally capped and earnings for companies a non-issue. They would get what the government allowed them to make. Whether citizens felt it was right or not, they'd be forced to work certain jobs or someone else would take it.
There is no way even half of the population could overthrown the 1.5 million people we have in our military under ANY circumstances. There would be hundreds of fractional voices all asking for different things based on what their ideologies were. Look at the recent "teaparties" for proof of that. Skinheads, Ron Paul groups, Fox Newsers, Catholic groups, Libertarians, militia groups.. one big mass of nonsense with no leader. Now imagine this same deluded rabble in a time of war. It would resemble warfare in Warhammer now. A WB made up of a team of healers, ranged DPS, and tanks with Ventrilo vs a PUG with no healers and all Choppas, with just as predictable an outcome.
If the U.S. constitution allows for states to snatch land now for shopping malls and roadways as is going on, what do you think would happen in your world? Rights would be severely restricted, and gun laws would go poof overnight. Actually, they wouldn't even need the people to support a gun ban at that point. You can bet anyone still in Congress would be strongarmed into voting unanimously to amend the Constitution and the "right to bear arms" would be permanently amended from this time forward, simply because the very same "patriots" who were claiming rights were hoarding up guns, then tried a revolution against the lawfully elected government.
Now that I think about that, if these crazy ass Militia groups keep going on the way they do, yelling about teaparties, revolutions and hording guns/ammo, they will probably try and take it to the next level at some point. Sooner or later, a few of them will go batshit and then poof!... no more gun rights due to the Patriot Act and civil unrest.
If any militias in Idaho, Minnesota, Kentucky, Arizona, Texas, Wyoming, Mississipi, etc are reading this, Obama is trying to take your guns and bullets!
"TO MICHAEL!"
I guess I'll have to say you are right...
Mental retardation and mental illness in its many forms have absolutely nothing to do with a person's ability to make ammunition because its so easy. Yep, anyone can make ammo regardless of level of mental illness or attention span. I really can see the nation's criminals being able to do this with the ease you have been suggesting all throughout this post without any proof whatsoever. /insanity off.You keep going off the subject and arguing the stupid point. Even if they could make their own ammo, they wouldn't, which is my point to you. So the price of ammo a box goes from $20 to $100 overnight and all the rounds are now etched with serials. Big deal. Criminals would STILL buy it someplace and there would always be someone to illegally make it if stores suddenly couldn't sell it anymore due to cost increases. It would be expensive, but since they are robbing and stealing to fund their robbing and stealing in the first place, it's not like it blows their budgeting spreadsheet through the window, lol. I simply have no idea why you don't realize this. They would not, and in most cases, cannot make their own ammunition.
The average criminal wouldn't carry any more ammunition on them than the average cop, which is one full magazine in the weapon and two spare magazines. Cops don't ride around with more than that and boxes of ammo in the trunk. 33 handgun rounds probably max not counting shotguns/rifles (look at a cop the next time one gets out of the car). Criminals would have FAR less than that, usually one full round in the weapon and MAYBE another clip.. but usually not. Why would they buy something to make tons of ammo and go through all that nonsense for what they do? One box of 50 holds them for a LONG time.
Hmm.. you don't think the linked info on numbers regarding the rise in mental illness cases amongst our nation's prisons are "abysmal"? I'm not sure why you find numbers like below so cheery and optimistic. I figured you weren't sure of that adjective abysmal, so I put it here to see if you think it was actually the correct one to use.
If you don't find those recent statistics "abysmal", you could put Anthony Robbins out of business.I swear the more I read what you say, I'm convinced you live on some farm and just get everything from Fox News and the internet. While that's nothing to be ashamed of, it leaves you woefully unable to back any points properly, because it's something you READ or HEARD one time, then you rehash someone else's point without understanding how they got their in the first place.
You have provided nothing remotely close to a fact or link this entire time and your whole arguments have been based on opinions. I think I'll stop now, because to present you with various information is useless because it just doesn't stack up to what's inside your head, no matter what you read or skim through.
I'm not, never have been, never will debate if prisoners have A.D.D. or whatever you want to say or show them as having. I wouldn't make a rebuttal to something like. My problem was you made a personal opinion of what you think criminals are capable of like it's fact and are passing it off to support something you probably believe should take place. It's even more ironic that you used works like ignorance in defense of those comments. You said the garbage not me.
Here's another addition that shows how off the wall your reasoning is.
Since you seem to think that these people could never hold a job, figure out how to work a reloader, or circumvent serials cause they are, to lazy, dumb, retarded, and A.D.D. afflicted. I wonder how many of these people in your study actually had some form of employment prior to going to jail/prison. Which is the closest your link comes to charting criminal mental disorders and their abilities to preform a task.
Taken straight from your study.
An estimated 70% of State prisoners who had a mental
health problem, compared to 76% of those without,
said they were employed in the month before their
arrest. Among Federal prisoners, 68% of those who
had a mental health problem were employed, compared
to 76% of those who did not have a mental problem.
Among jail inmates, 69% of those who had a mental
health problem reported that they were employed,
while 76% of those without were employed in the
month before their arrest.
Of State prisoners who had a mental health problem,
65% had received income from wages or salary in the
month before their arrest. This percentage was
larger for inmates without a mental health problem
(71%). Over a quarter (28%) of State prisoners who
had a mental health problem reported income from
illegal sources, compared to around a fifth (21%)
of State prisoners without a mental problem.
No I don't see those numbers as abysmal. You said something off the wall trying to validate why a course of action should be accepted.
P.S. Just to humor your ranting presses and kits. Most sporting goods stores that carry guns or ammunition probably carry these. The kits would definately pay for themselves while also having everything you need short of dye, primers, brass, powder, bullet. Need to know specifics about type for any of those look in a loading manual. An example of how simple the process of prep and combining the parts would look something like this.
I'm not, never have been, never will debate if prisoners have A.D.D. or whatever you want to say or show them as having. I wouldn't make a rebuttal to something like. My problem was you made a personal opinion of what you think criminals are capable of like it's fact and are passing it off to support something you probably believe should take place. It's even more ironic that you used works like ignorance in defense of those comments. You said the garbage not me.
Here's another addition that shows how off the wall your reasoning is.
Since you seem to think that these people could never hold a job, figure out how to work a reloader, or circumvent serials cause they are, to lazy, dumb, retarded, and A.D.D. afflicted. I wonder how many of these people in your study actually had some form of employment prior to going to jail/prison. Which is the closest your link comes to charting criminal mental disorders and their abilities to preform a task.
Taken straight from your study.
An estimated 70% of State prisoners who had a mental
health problem, compared to 76% of those without,
said they were employed in the month before their
arrest. Among Federal prisoners, 68% of those who
had a mental health problem were employed, compared
to 76% of those who did not have a mental problem.
Among jail inmates, 69% of those who had a mental
health problem reported that they were employed,
while 76% of those without were employed in the
month before their arrest.
Of State prisoners who had a mental health problem,
65% had received income from wages or salary in the
month before their arrest. This percentage was
larger for inmates without a mental health problem
(71%). Over a quarter (28%) of State prisoners who
had a mental health problem reported income from
illegal sources, compared to around a fifth (21%)
of State prisoners without a mental problem.
No I don't see those numbers as abysmal. You said something off the wall trying to validate why a course of action should be accepted.
P.S. Just to humor your ranting presses and kits. Most sporting goods stores that carry guns or ammunition probably carry these. The kits would definately pay for themselves while also having everything you need short of dye, primers, brass, powder, bullet. Need to know specifics about type for any of those look in a loading manual. An example of how simple the process of prep and combining the parts would look something like this.
Flipping burgers, or working construction don't require much. Mental health patients "said" they had a job is another point you need to consider. I've worked with mentally ill people when I was a teenager. We had one guy who worked one day a week and generally he would have a hangover or be drunk when he showed up.
furthermore, holding a job and having a job are different things all together. You have a job for a week, get fired and say you worked that month. The particular statistics you quoted seem too ambiguous for the argument your trying to make.
I think popinjays dealt with every argument you've made and you've yet to come up with anything new. Its just the same issues being shot down over and over.
after 6 or so years, I had to change it a little...
I'm not, never have been, never will debate if prisoners have A.D.D. or whatever you want to say or show them as having. I wouldn't make a rebuttal to something like. My problem was you made a personal opinion of what you think criminals are capable of like it's fact and are passing it off to support something you probably believe should take place. It's even more ironic that you used works like ignorance in defense of those comments. You said the garbage not me.
Here's another addition that shows how off the wall your reasoning is.
Since you seem to think that these people could never hold a job, figure out how to work a reloader, or circumvent serials cause they are, to lazy, dumb, retarded, and A.D.D. afflicted. I wonder how many of these people in your study actually had some form of employment prior to going to jail/prison. Which is the closest your link comes to charting criminal mental disorders and their abilities to preform a task.
Taken straight from your study.
An estimated 70% of State prisoners who had a mental
health problem, compared to 76% of those without,
said they were employed in the month before their
arrest. Among Federal prisoners, 68% of those who
had a mental health problem were employed, compared
to 76% of those who did not have a mental problem.
Among jail inmates, 69% of those who had a mental
health problem reported that they were employed,
while 76% of those without were employed in the
month before their arrest.
Of State prisoners who had a mental health problem,
65% had received income from wages or salary in the
month before their arrest. This percentage was
larger for inmates without a mental health problem
(71%). Over a quarter (28%) of State prisoners who
had a mental health problem reported income from
illegal sources, compared to around a fifth (21%)
of State prisoners without a mental problem.
No I don't see those numbers as abysmal. You said something off the wall trying to validate why a course of action should be accepted.
P.S. Just to humor your ranting presses and kits. Most sporting goods stores that carry guns or ammunition probably carry these. The kits would definately pay for themselves while also having everything you need short of dye, primers, brass, powder, bullet. Need to know specifics about type for any of those look in a loading manual. An example of how simple the process of prep and combining the parts would look something like this.
Flipping burgers, or working construction don't require much. Mental health patients "said" they had a job is another point you need to consider. I've worked with mentally ill people when I was a teenager. We had one guy who worked one day a week and generally he would have a hangover or be drunk when he showed up.
furthermore, holding a job and having a job are different things all together. You have a job for a week, get fired and say you worked that month. The particular statistics you quoted seem too ambiguous for the argument your trying to make.
I think popinjays dealt with every argument you've made and you've yet to come up with anything new. Its just the same issues being shot down over and over.
Way to be oblivious! I wouldn't even say anything if he wasn't trying to defend those comments or twist something I said out of context or turn it into a totally different matter. Just like you just did. Sometimes I do end up sticking my foot in my mouth (and I am big enough to admit it), it is not happeing in this case. Because I know better than to believe his reasons to support tagging, serials,(whatever you want to call it) on ammo.
" Reloads: The average person has no idea how to reload. The average criminal is dumber and lazier than the average person, or they would be making money legitimately somehow already on some job. These guys would not be able to mass produce their own rounds worth anything and half of them would misfire or blow themselves up in some way. Heck, most law abiding citizens have no idea about loads. This is a SMALL concern.
Altering rounds. 50 bullets to a box. 20 boxes to a case. 1,000 rounds. You really think most criminals, who are already A.D.D. afflicted, slightly retarded and lazy are going to sit around and file off 1,000 rounds in a sitting? Maybe a hitman might. But the majority of criminals won't. Ironically, I bet they'd get a job before doing something as tedious and time consuming as this would be. I think this is an even smaller concern than the reload issue. "
If that reasoning was sound, we wouldn't have a drug problem in the U.S. (because we all know god spawns a persons fix for them), prohibition would have worked, crime in general would be all but non-exsistant, and people who support guns wouldn't have organizations like the NRA (who take bullshit logic like this and wipe their ass with it in courts). And funny enough criminals who are so lazy,stupid, retarded, and A.D.D. afflicted that they couldn't hold a job, yet in his very same document and a good part of his defense thus far has been off those articles adn they say otherwise.
With that said I am pretty much done here. Tired of him trying to get me to trap myself in his flawed logic, tired of him spinning what I say into something I didn't , and tired of you at this point jumping in for the second time and me having yet to correct you again because you ae oblivious to the context of the posts. piss off
QFT.
"TO MICHAEL!"
Well that ended more gracefully than most... lol
Anywho, there was a lot said and I think popinjay gave some solid discussion from a side that's usually under-represented on these forums :P
I know I've walked away with some ideas I hadn't thought of before.
after 6 or so years, I had to change it a little...
Thanks, I always wondering why there was such a strong pro-gun presence on many gaming forums. I won't make the unsubstantiated claims that video games cause violence though, lol.
But I do think guns in the U.S. is a growing concern in many respects, not just the actual crimes. It's the culture mindset of fear that is/has been growing since 9/11. An awful lot of Americans think everyone except their neighbor is a suspect, but I have no idea why. There is a strong undercurrent of fear that is being fanned by a lot of people who have a financial interest (gun lobbies, gun makers, news organizations for ratings) that would have the American public think death is right around the corner. They do this ever couple of years. It's fasicm, then communism, then recreational drugs, then crime, then steroids, then terrorism. "They" always come up with something so they can sell you something.
I do not believe there is one solution to this problem but there are many things we can do to ease it. First and foremost is to limit the amount of weapons out there. It's sheer madness to think you can solve someone's fear problem of being the victim of gun violence by providing MORE guns. That is lunacy.
I think programs like this can be helpful with other measures. We need to tighten up the rules and perhaps down the line offer something like this with serial tracking to discourage more panicked gun buying. The fastest way to get people to give up vices and dangerous, unseemly things is to tax it. Right now with smoking, they are taxing the hell out of it. People still determined to smoke WILL smoke, but lots of other who are just starting or thinking of quitting are finding it easier due to the increased cost.
Heck, even a buyback program like this one I'd vote for.
"TO MICHAEL!"
I am reminded of the post-apocalyptic episode of Family Guy where Peter destroys all the irrigation pipes and makes guns out of them, therefore helping to utterly destroy the town that was built there.
My blog is a continuing story of what MMO's should be like.