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TCoS should ditch its rootkit...
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Wow dude, you really need to chill. IF what the OP says is true ( I have no idea and I'm guessing you don't either) then I say we should be worried. If software circumvents basic OS safety measures to run, then yeah, it's crap I don't want it on my computer.
Relating to the above post. Where exactly do you explain in detail how GG or any anti-cheat program works? I understand the whole "you're paranoid" bit, I know peeps who are WAAAAY out there. That doesn't change the fact that IF what the OP says is correct, then...yeah.
Z
http://www.TheIronZ.com
It is very similar to SecureROM in its invasive and inappropriate methodology - and SecureROM (and EA and others) are facing multiple class action lawsuits on this very front. As for your numerical listing, let me comment on each:
1) Whether buried in the EULA or not that is hardly informed consent as such documents are written as to be unable to be really understood by the average person anyways. So that is not appropriate. Like Punkbuster a simple dialogue during install is appropriate for any third party software installed in a case like this.
2) Not only does it not always get remove it never gets removed on uninstalling TCoS - there is no if or maybe it NEVER uninstalls when you uninstall the game. In fact, it never uninstalls period unless you have the knowledge and expertise to manual search through the registry and remove the keys and then find the core files it places in the system folders and remove them. Once the registry is purged the hidden driver can be removed as well. No uninstaller to do this is provided so anyone saying it uninstalled for them is flat out lying or simply doesn't know how to tell if it is installed or not.
3) It is a rootkit, in so far as it installs in a way to obfuscates the operating system and the user from any control over it and from even being aware it is active. For those that do not know what a rootkit it the definition is a software program that attempts to obfuscate the compromised state of the system it resides on. By extension programs that install or run without the user knowing and that operate in such a way as to hide from even the operating system are considered rootkits. Nowhere in the definition of a rootkit is intent qualified - whether done to screw users or to protect them it matters not even if the term is most commonly used for malicious software. As one of the leading experts in Windows kernel technologies Mark Russinovich says, "root kit is a term loosely applied to cloaking techniques."
If you do not know about these things, technically, then please do not take my word for it - look for yourself. if you search and read up on this technology and make an informed decision then my purpose in posting here was satisfied. If you decide that you don't mind a hidden, remotely controlled. third party program running on your system with access to ANYTHING in memory and with the control to kill any program or process on yoru computer (including any security software) that it is instructed to kill then go ahead, use it happily. I would bet money the company probably never does anything openly illicit with that power you give them; however, I will also near gaurantee you that the program will interfere with the normal and effecient operation fo your computer and at the very least expose you to a host of vulnerabilities and instabilities that not using it would. Make an informed decision, even though TCoS doesn't see fit to inform you about this during installation I thought it was worth mentioning here.
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The program in itself is not being forced upon the user in anyway. The user has the right to just completely ignore the game and not play it because they do not like these programs installed on their system. Which I believe is the stance that you have taken is it not? Which in business sucks for them but it is their choice to have it set up this way as well.
Plus I have to say you have a very interesting perspective on what is evil. I just thought that line was a tad bit extreme.
(added)
upon looking at more of your posts I see where your arguement is coming from. I do agree informing the user exactly what is going on with this software is not a bad thing. Although I still stand by that the user has the option to always take their business elsewhere because of it.
Your argument is completely irrelevant, it doesn't matter if we have the choice to play the game or not because they didn't even tell us there WAS a rootkit. It might aswell be called a trojan-rootkit for that same reason. It would be too late to take your business elsewhere if you had already unknowingly installed the game. So basically your entire post is nothing but fluff, who in the hell needs a rootkit to run a subscriber based MMO anyway?
Well said Druz, The problem with Game Guard is that it installs without proper notice to the user, and then once installed it runs hidden and it doesn't provide an even basic unisntaller (let alone a full clean uninstaller) . So the user doesn't know it is getting put on, cannot see it is running when it is on because it uses rootkit techniques to hide itself, and it doesn't let the user remove it unless they have advance technical competence. User choice is not sought, not granted, and worse still user control is subverted.
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While I agree that GG is bad and I agree with a lot of what the OP says, I have to question why he decided to specifically attack TCoS? There are plenty of other games that use GG yet the OP chose TCoS forums and specifically said not to install TCoS. Didn't bother even mentioning the other games that install GG as well as if they don't exist. Perhaps the OP has an alternative motive?
*edit* I would also like to note that GG has been around since almost the beginning of MMO Time
ROFL, you guys are too much.
You blame a game company for wanting to protect itself by having you DL a program that is for the moment, totally innocuous and unless you can site specific examples of illicit behavior, you have no footing to argument on. And, even after knowing it's there and know how to remove it (since there are pages already in this thread and easily accessible by googling it), you still go on about the ethical nature of it?!
Unless GG has a negative effect on your PC, and you can PROVE this, there's nothing noble nor altruistic about your rants. You simply like to harp on something you think you're right about. Give it a rest please...
I am not proclaiming it is doing illicit things, that is not the point
but using the same methods of other malware even for a good purpose is not acceptable
ok, I DID read the rest of your post, but edited for clarity.
So, to boil it down, you don't like GG not because of WHAT it does, but rather HOW it does it? The methods it uses, even though those methods are no threat when used in this app..?
hehe ok, I don't think I'm overly worried then
Well I Googled it...and asked it the secret to the Universe...and got no reply...so no..it in fact can't explain everything. You got my hopes up only to be dashed on the rocky outcropping that is Acclaim....damn you sir...damn you.
It's better to lurk in forums and be thought a fool...than to endlessly "Quote" and remove all doubts.
actually...no...it doesn't....
know something we don't?
no...you don't....so save it until you have facts....
lol. Every other game online Acclaim has uses GameGuard (Because they're F2P), so you would expect them to use GameGuard for any other game. Make sense now? Not too hard to sort through I hope.
This is your logic?
Cause every other game is F2P?
wow...you got me......
GG is an anti cheat prog....it can be installed in an offline game, online FPS, online RTS, or any other type of game. Has nothing to do with any game maker. Just like most FPS games using the Unreal engine used Punk Buster.
Learn of what you speak...please....
I guess you didn't get what I was meaning to say? I was saying "It's Acclaim, explain anything" because you would logically expect them to use gameguard for TCOS, since they have for all their other games... idk wtf you're talking about
umm....I was saying it works (a bit) for online games.....so why not for SB.....I understand why you wouldn't get that though....
Still has rarely anything to do with my post, except you say it can work for offline games as well
I do get that part, I was wonder wtf you're talking about since it DOES have barley anything to do with my posts
then your posts have nothing to see .....I saw and posted....and your only defense is "you don't get it"
well...you have fun with that
see signature.......for irony.
It's better to lurk in forums and be thought a fool...than to endlessly "Quote" and remove all doubts.
By the way....WHO FREAKIN' CARES!? There is not ONE reported case of GG ACTUALLY harming someone's system. YES it is an uneffective anti-hack. YES it leaves stuff behind. NO that stuff doesn't do ANYTHING. Now shut up, GG isn't going away, and TCoS isn't going to stop using it anymore. Dear god, just SHUT UP about GG. Always think...it could be worse...it could be XTRAP.
Last time we had this discussion, we came to the conclusion that GG is about as harmful as Microsoft Word. As a full time programmer for over 10 years and a master's degree in CS, I can assure you that ANY program can trash your system if that was its intention. Its just a matter of whether or not the program was written with malicious intent. Unless anyone can prove that GG was written with the intent of harming your system, then I won't worry about it.
I've known the OP from other forums where he routinely misrepresents and complains about the silliest of things. I would take anything he says with a large grain of salt, very large. In fact, I would suspect that his intention was to start an inflamatory subject which would make him a troll as well.
Instead of ditching its rootkit...perhaps it could just try that self watering globe I see on T.V.
I'm just throwing out ideas here.
It's better to lurk in forums and be thought a fool...than to endlessly "Quote" and remove all doubts.
I know most of this post has been about GameGuard but I am more intrested on what Pando Media Booster is. I have played other games with GameGuard so I'm infected with that rootkit allready. However, I have never heard of Pando Media Booster until now.
tinyurl.com/cfmk6x
tinyurl.com/cfmk6x
Wow thanks. Just clicked your link and went to Pando's site, and got a warning from McAfee site advisor saying that it is a malicious site.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
I would like to give this game a shot, but this thread is not helping it's case much.
I am not proclaiming it is doing illicit things, that is not the point
but using the same methods of other malware even for a good purpose is not acceptable
ok, I DID read the rest of your post, but edited for clarity.
So, to boil it down, you don't like GG not because of WHAT it does, but rather HOW it does it? The methods it uses, even though those methods are no threat when used in this app..?
hehe ok, I don't think I'm overly worried then
Look to this post, it is maybe the truest insight here.
Even the OP has clarified that GG isnt doing anything illicit or dangerous, he is just accusing it of having traits ('the same methods') in common with rootkits.
Well, so what?
It is just empty panic mongering tbh. He is aware of the emotive power of scarey bogeymen words like 'rootkit', that a lot of people vaguely know are dangerous, and is just trying to draw connections with GG for drama.
Throw enough muck and some of will stick, right?
Pando media booster seem be used for some sort "Cloud" based downloading of content, like patches I'm guessing.
I don't think there is any malicious about it.
The site says that specific client is for video. They make a game downloading client and other clients for other uses. I am assuming that CoS has some video in it maybe that is what it's for.
I am not proclaiming it is doing illicit things, that is not the point
but using the same methods of other malware even for a good purpose is not acceptable
ok, I DID read the rest of your post, but edited for clarity.
So, to boil it down, you don't like GG not because of WHAT it does, but rather HOW it does it? The methods it uses, even though those methods are no threat when used in this app..?
hehe ok, I don't think I'm overly worried then
Look to this post, it is maybe the truest insight here.
Even the OP has clarified that GG isnt doing anything illicit or dangerous, he is just accusing it of having traits ('the same methods') in common with rootkits.
Well, so what?
It is just empty panic mongering tbh. He is aware of the emotive power of scarey bogeymen words like 'rootkit', that a lot of people vaguely know are dangerous, and is just trying to draw connections with GG for drama.
Throw enough muck and some of will stick, right?
Just because they "aren't" doing anything wrong with it, doesn't mean they can't, or won't. Also, someone could find some error or bug in it, and exploit it to do whatever they want with any computer that has it.
The fact of the matter is, if they want to make software to do a specific task, they should design it to not require shady methods to work.
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Ever hear the phrase "absolute power corrupts, absolutely"? Giving a third party, even a well meaning one, the kind of control that a program like GameGuard has once installed is dangerous. Even if they never do anything they shouldn't the security vulnerabilities it opens up are serious (anyone wanting to get access to all these users’ computers only need find a way to hack GG and they own your system). So yes, the methodology, the invasiveness, the lack of proper installers and uninstallers make the program malicious even if it doesn't directly do anything malicious. Most hacks, viruses and malware, don't attack the core of a users system (the operating system) they attack the various software programs running on that client and by compromising those programs and/or services they gain access to the system itself.
I was referring to the transparent way it operates more than the lack of a out front request for permission to install. The program operates in a way that obfuscates its operation, reach, and even its status as active or inactive from ordinary administrative means (thus the fair classification as a rootkit). However, that being said, both are a fair problem and worthy of criticism and suspicion. If, in fact, this program is up front and legitimate then why do they not proudly tell you of its installation when the game installs? Most PunkBuster games are happy to brag about their use of PB to stop cheats and when you install these games you get a separate installer for PB. Additionally, PB runs in the open as a legitimate service on the user’s computer than the user can monitor, terminate, and fully uninstall through normal means. PB also doesn't kill user programs and process in the way various GameGuard versions do and have.
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I agree with you and I would add to that....aren't there bigger issues? I mean seriously, this is a small independent MMO with a small piece of software that is used to prevent hacking and cheating (or that is supposedly its goal).
Now I am not a big fan of SecureRom, rootkits, GG or any other related product. And I will agree that it puts an undue burden on the consumer. But what I do not understand is why the focus on GG? There are much, much worse programs and issues out there than GG.
I have had TCOs on my computer for a while now, played other games with SecureRom (like Spore) and never had an issue at all. I am far more concerned about someone hacking my bank account or credit cards than this miniscule piece of software that is attached to some game I play.
To me, given the things you let Windows and other programs do to your computer, GG is nothing and honestly, if you worried about what GG can do and that fearful of trusting companies or other's with your info, then get off the computer right now, and move into a cave by yourself (I don't recommend it, caves are cold, wet and lots of bugs...and maybe an occasional balrog too).
God, I seriously feel like I have descended into an episode of the X-Files.....damn, where is my flashlight?
A flashlight won't save you here. We're in too deep.
I agree with your post, btw. There's so much that more popular programs (and OS's and corporations and govt leaders...) do on such a wider scale for so much longer that to sound the alarm about what is actually a truly innocuous program is silly.
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