Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Define Neo-Con
Fishermage
Member Posts: 7,562
No links, no dictionaries, no cut-and-paste please.
Try to avoid turning this into a flame war.
I would like, if possible, to get everyone's real opinion on this.
If you have a definition of neo-con IN YOUR HEAD, please share it.
Then, please name as many neo-cons as you can think of, and with each one, try and say what makes them a neo-con. Again, NO LINKS PLEASE. Use your head and what is in it.
Then please name as many conservatives who are NOT neo-cons you can think of, and with each one, try and say what makes them NOT a neo-con.
Please, do not argue with anyone else over what they write. Let's see if ANYONE can actually answer this. I am collecting data here, but I ONLY want what is in YOUR hearst and minds, no links, no dictionaries, no cut-and-paste.
Please, let people say what they want to say. If you disagree, just give your own definition. Let's see if we can do this.
I won't ask any more questions for clarification until later. I may bump the thread by asking for more input. Let's play nice, guys.
Ready, set, go!
Comments
Hmmm seems a lot of people on these boards are using a word they can not define. Interesting.
fishermage.blogspot.com
It has Neo in the word, so I'm guessing it has something to do with The Matrix.
------------------
Originally posted by javac
well i'm 35 and have a PhD in science, and then 10 years experience in bioinformatics... you?
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/218865/page/8
They're to busy Googling.
This is what I think of when I hear neo-conservative:
Someone who works at a think tank, calls himself --almost invariably a he-- a "conservative," and having never served in the military, supports an intervenionist foreign policy.
Bush, e.g., is a neo-conservative in this respect: having worn the uniform only twice --once while in the Nat'l Guard to pose for a photo, and the other time as Pres. to declare "Mission Acccomplished" in Iraq-- supported a foreign policy that involved military intervenion and the use of force.
Remove Bush, for a moment, and return to the "think tank" chickenhawk I referred to. These so-called think tanks are largely funded by the defense industry, and the people working at these "think tanks" support not only increased military spending but increased use of the military.
Edit: Taxes => U.S. Treasury => Defense Industry => Think Tank
(ultimately, the taxpayer, indirectly, pays for these "think tanks" as well)
After the Cold War, numerous and varied justifications have been used to support not only the continued funding of the massive military industrial complex (a term coined by Pres. Eisenhower, also Supreme Allied Commander during WII, not my term, so do not blame me personally for the term or even my personal use of the term) but its use.
Define Neo-Con
A chickenhawk, usually who works for a think tank, never having worn a uniform, supports military funding and the use of the military as a tool of foreign policy.
Important edit: I support the U.S. military, its value system, and its funding. I believe we are blessed with this great institution, and the brave men and women whose sacrafices, personal and familial, I have not experienced.
Thank you seems too inadequate for defending my freedom and my Constitution - every day.
Just having some fun. Doesn't appear that the posters you are trying to call out want to come and play.
------------------
Originally posted by javac
well i'm 35 and have a PhD in science, and then 10 years experience in bioinformatics... you?
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/218865/page/8
Please, no cut-and-paste. I want people to share what they are holding in their minds, not what they find on the web.
fishermage.blogspot.com
Right wing conservatives who support overseas policing and pre-emptive military measures. Oh there is a healthy dose of religious fanaticism thrown in for good measure. And they want to get there mates rich in companies like haliburton.
Bush and Rice are 2 maybe Cheney. As someone from the UK though it is a far less common term. Also it's not a phrase i've ever used on these forums in my recollection.
"The problem with the French is that they don't have a word for entrepreneur." -George W. Bush, discussing the decline of the French economy with British Prime Minister Tony Blair
I would define neo-cons by three aspects.
Social - They favour cultural control and want to enforce their morality into law, ie ban same sex marriage, ban abortions, teach creationism in schools, censor nudity in the media. They also favour safety over civil liberties.
Economics - Corporatism, they favour and protect corporations over the free market, especially ones they see as vital to national security.
Foreign Policy - Aggressive and highly interventionist. Sees a strong military and active dismantling of other regimes as the key to peace.
Basically a religion centered mild version of fascism.
Neo - Cons: Cheney, George Bush Sr., McCarthy
Conservatives differ in that they are not as aggressive and not as big into corporatism.
Conservatives: Regan, Taft
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
Eh what? How is this "Pwning" the libs? Because nobody had replied to his post yet, he "pwnd" the libs?
Wow, you are desperately looking for any spot of potential victory after the "libs" kicked you "convies" out of the white house eh?
Eh what? How is this "Pwning" the libs? Because nobody had replied to his post yet, he "pwnd" the libs?
Wow, you are desperately looking for any spot of potential victory after the "libs" kicked you "convies" out of the white house eh?
------------------
Originally posted by javac
well i'm 35 and have a PhD in science, and then 10 years experience in bioinformatics... you?
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/218865/page/8
I had never even heard the phrase until a few years ago on these forums. I ask the same thing 3-4 times back then and got same kind of answers.
I think it is what was said here before. Pat Bucannon is conservative and the rest are neo-cons.
The context and use of the term has changed over time. In the 80's, they were Blue-Dog Democrats (back when Repubs were blue and Dems red. Funny how things change.) who supported Reagan's foreign policy stance against the Soviets, yet still embraced much of the Democratic social agenda. The origins of Compassionate Conservatism? Perhaps.
Now it would seem the term - like most labels - is thrown around in such ignorance that it's lost any true meaning (see Fascism).
Some say there is no such thing, and in a sense maybe they're right. There is no Neocon "movement" to speak of. If viewed from an evolutionary standpoint, one might simply say that the conservative Democrats took over the Republican party. People who consider themselves true "conservatives" (i.e., small govt, low taxes, strong defence) are increasingly disassociating themselves from the Republican Party. As Reagan said, "I didn't leave the Democratic party, it left me". I'm sure Pat Buchannan would say the same.
Simply put, the far Left likes to label things because it makes them easier to attack. "Military Industrial Complex", " Big (insert target here)" , "Neocon", "fascist", etc. In that capacity it has no meaning, only a function.
The truth is, objectively speaking, is this: Neoconservative = Republican
It is neither fair nor accurate to say that, I think you have made a sincere mistake.
In other words, you are suggesting that President Dwight D. Eisenhower, former Supreme Allied Commander, is a member of the "far Left"? You might not believe this, but I enjoy reading the Farewell Addresses of former Presidents from Washington to Eisenhower, and that is how I learned of the term, though I have heard it in passing.
(Is this man a member of the so-called "far Left"?)
The term, "military industrial complex," was coined by non-other than President Eisenhower. His Farewell Address is significant because it was the first that was broadcast on television; they used to be printed in newspapers.
"In other words, you are suggesting that President Dwight D. Eisenhower, former Supreme Allied Commander, is a member of the "far Left"? "
Just like the term "Neoconservative", Military Industrial Complex had a different meaning in both it's context and use when President Eisenhower first coined it. Today, the term has a much more sinister inference...from a cultural standpoint anyway.
I'm not calling President Eisenhower a radical leftist. I am interested in how you would leap (and it's a BIG leap) to a conclusion like that.
It's usually customary for the host to start off stating what they think. Not ask other people what they think so they can rebut it into the ground.
It's your thread. How about you answer all of your own questions? Not to turn it into a flame war, but where is your ideas and names?
Way to set the tone for a positive, rational discussion.
Ready, set, go!
"TO MICHAEL!"
How does "military industrial complex" have a different meaning today than when Pres. Eisenhower coined the term?
Text:
"We must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. . . . Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together."
Video:
www.youtube.com/watch
EDIT/DISCLAIMER: I had difficulty obtaining a "clean" version of Eisenhower's Farewell Address that did not contain "analysis" of what he said. Loosely using the word "analysis." I did my best.
How does Pres. Eisenhower's term, "military industrial complex," have a "much more sinister inference" today than when he coined the term, via broadcast, for his Farewell Address?
- declaredredemer,
I understand what you're saying now. I'm just not being clear enough in what I was trying to point out.
When Ike made the speech in 61', he was delivering a non-partisan warning against something unprecedented in the U.S. You're absolutely right, his use of the term hasn't changed in meaning (I should have used a different word earlier). When I hear it uttered now, it invokes the same meaning it had in 61'.
The only difference now is I never hear it used in a non-partisan context. I only hear it used by certain people - usually those who think we have somehow managed to steal Iraq's (OPEC's) oil from them. And it's an understandable association if you believe any of that, but that was never my point.
My point was that the term is now used as a political label - a partisan one, which is why I used it as an example. So I'd say that Eisenhower's term doesn't infer anything less sinister than when he coined it. It just gets used for a different pupose than he used it. But this thread isn't about labels or the Military Industrial Complex or Ike Eisenhower...
What's your idea of what a NEOCON is, anyway?
I defined a NEOCON in the above post some one who has not served in the military, as a chickenhawk, and endorses the use of the military as an instrument of foreign policy to achieve political ends.
Examples:
Bill Kristol
Combat Experience:
George Bush
Combat Experience:
(this post is intended as satire only; it has political undertones of course; it is not intended to demean our country or even our President but illustrate, perhaps unfairly, a point about chickenhawks).
/applause
"TO MICHAEL!"
It's usually customary for the host to start off stating what they think. Not ask other people what they think so they can rebut it into the ground.
It's your thread. How about you answer all of your own questions? Not to turn it into a flame war, but where is your ideas and names?
Way to set the tone for a positive, rational discussion.
Ready, set, go!
I thought it was clear, and has been clear, what I think. I don't know what a neo-con is, since so many people define it so many different ways, and it is almost always used as an epithet.
I don't know what neo-con means, so I don't usually use the word.
If a conservative is an isolationist or a populist, I say that (I guess those would be "true conservatives" according to you Popinjay). If a conservative is an internationalist or not a populist, I say that (I guess those are neo-cons, according to you, popinjay, although I'm not sure, because you have elsewhere defined them in other ways).
I want people's opinions, to aid my own.
No, let us continue. I want to collect more data from my fellow forum dwellers.
{ Mod Edit }
fishermage.blogspot.com
Now, back to the subject at hand. Anyone else have any definitions for neo-con?
fishermage.blogspot.com
I didn't want to play in your game either. I couldn't hit the back button in time before I saw your name as the author.
Few things:
Anyone or anything from the site worldnetdaily.com. The stuff that comes out of there is bat-shit crazy.
Debbie Schlussel. Totally called her out over the phone during her radio show here in the detroit when she started up with her 9/11=invade iraq bullshit. Detroit did not like her one bit and she's moved on. Saw her contribute to worldnetdaily and I think she works as a neo-con cheerleader in new york now.
Anne Coulter. There's another crazy bitch.
Rush Limbaugh has been around since the whole neo-con fad got started and picked up steam during the clinton years. Another worthless human being and hillbilly heroin junky.
Basically neo-cons are folks who were pissed off during the clinton years, on a high during the bush years- and now that it's all over, with the dust settling, they refer to themselves by euphemistic labels to hide behind.
They are angry, worthless, greedy, materialistic, little people.
Hope you got your things together. Hope you are quite prepared to die. Looks like we're in for nasty weather. ... There's a bad moon on the rise.
Neo-Cons are the new Republican Party. Not a party of conservative principles like this country was founded on, but what they have claimed as their conservative principles.
Neo-Cons have given up on smaller government and instead have opened themselves completely to growing the federal government to push their views on others. Those views include such wonderfully destructive things as international intervention, protection of the Federal Reserve, using taxation as a manipulative tool, pushing a religious agenda into the government arena, denying rights to people they disagree with, and a general nose in the air cockiness that I cannot stand!
Traditional conservative values are those that the Libertarian Party most closely follows. Those are the values of self-determination, a federal government that does only those things that are absolutely necessary (which is hardly anything), a belief in state rights, and a belief in protecting the rights and equal representation of ALL of this countries citizens (even the minority).
===============================
the gnome nails it.
That brought tears to my eyes. Right on, brother.
You nailed it on every count.
-----------------------
</OBAMA>