A template is just like a class, if you use one you just pick it like you pick a class. No difference at all except that people can make thier own class also, the balancing is from a point system. If you pick the ranger class or the ranger template, does that really matter to you? But the impotant thing about a classless system is that you must balance it by making things costs point and you cant allow people to get all the best skills at the same character. You can't allow people to have all the best spells, the ability to use heavy armor while casting them and the best melee skills. It just don't work.
/agree
I've always envisioned a sysem where when you create a character you have a huge list of all these templates, pre-made character types like Paladins, Rangers, Beastmasters etc. etc.
But then down at the bottom, kind of like in old UO, you have an option to create a custom class.
You'd only be able to pick let's just say two "main" skill groups so that you couldn't create a character that was too good at everything, and also maybe two secondary skill groups.
Like a Paladin would have let's say Primary skill groups of Heavy Armor (plate and large shields) and Retribution (offensive Holy-based magic) with secondary skill groups of a melee weapon (maybe Maces) and then some kind of Buff oriented skill group maybe called "Leadership".
Where as a Shadow Knight might have Primaries of Swords and Unholy offensive magic with secondaries of Heavy Armor and a debuff oriented skill tree maybe called something like Intimidation.
Then you could go and modify these Templates to further customize your character. Like replace the Maces of the Paladin with Axes or take the Shadow Knight and replace the Swords with 2H Swords for Primary and then not putting any of their skills points in Heavy Armor into shields as they level...
Another thing that someone else mentioned was that everyone ends up with the same exact character. We have seen through 12 years of UO, 8 years of AC and 6 years of EVE that this has never been the case. Which also brings up another advantage to skill-based MMOs - players can create a character that isn't just a 'smacker of things'. In the majority of class restricted MMOs, to create such a character, you actually have to work against the design and mechanics of the game to do so.
In a skill-based system, players can often customize the character to fit how they want to play the game. That's not better. That's not worse. It's just a different approach and both have their pros and cons. The most obvious drawback to the skill based system is that a player can create a character that genuinely sucks.
You are mistaken in thinking that everyone in AC is the same. AC even to this day (10 years later) has very different character setups. Both for PvP and PvM. You are using generalities that all skill based games end up with everyone playing the same setup. This is only the case if one skill is overpowering, or if most skills are useless, and this is no different from a class based game with an overpowered class that everyone uses.
The truth is that if the skills are setup correctly skill based systems allow for more character customization and actually ends up with lots of different character layouts running around. In UO I agree that most people ended up the same but there also weren't very many skills. In AC where there is lots of skills and you are directly limited to how many skill points you get to design your character, the players pick different paths depending on what they like.
I think the most simplistic reason is that people still want to play a role. Such as spy, mage, etc.. It's not just about "what's your skill build like". When you break down gaming to skill builds, then it looses the romanticism that RP classes can offer. But hey I'm all about player freedom and choices. Why not have a game with pre-built classes, and of course a "hybrid/generic" non-class where the gamer has the choice of skill building, and allocating his/her own attributes.
Champions Online - pick archetype, customize to liking (pick your powers and such)
CO uses a classless system. But like I said in my example, players will most likely specialize in a specific category of superpowers. In the case of CO each category has abilities to fill nearly any role so your category selection has almost no effect on what role you plan to fill. The CO Sorcery video showed offensive abilities, pets, heals, and CC all in one power category. Players won't have roles in that game, at least not in the way they do in CoX.
The irony of this all is that the most complex character development system we have seen in an MMOG was a class based system. I'm talking about D&D Online. You choose your skills, class, and abilities. You can really gimp your character if you don't know what you're doing.
Being a skill based game or a class based game has no bearing on how complex the system is or how smart you need to be when using it. You could just as easily have an idiot-proof skill based system as you could have an overly complex class based system (like DDO!).
Another thing that someone else mentioned was that everyone ends up with the same exact character. We have seen through 12 years of UO, 8 years of AC and 6 years of EVE that this has never been the case. Which also brings up another advantage to skill-based MMOs - players can create a character that isn't just a 'smacker of things'. In the majority of class restricted MMOs, to create such a character, you actually have to work against the design and mechanics of the game to do so.
In a skill-based system, players can often customize the character to fit how they want to play the game. That's not better. That's not worse. It's just a different approach and both have their pros and cons. The most obvious drawback to the skill based system is that a player can create a character that genuinely sucks.
You are mistaken in thinking that everyone in AC is the same. AC even to this day (10 years later) has very different character setups.
I think you mis-read something up there...
"We have seen through 12 years of UO, 8 years of AC and 6 years of EVE that this has NEVER been the case." (the second line... which was after the first line that said... someone else said that everyone ends up the same...)
It is the common arguement which is odd... only because have any of these people looked at class based games?
At the end point of class based games... Every tank has the same gear... Every mage has the same gear etc etc
Or you look at DAoC and when a certain class was seen as over powered in pvp... that class was suddenly everywhere...
So its not really an arguement I ever pay attention to...
Most people are content with choosing a defined archetype or class because it is familiar, because they can understand it and it makes sense to them. It's basic human psychology.
What players really want is balance first and foremost, bad class/skill balance can ruin any game by making people feel as if they HAVE to play a certain class or choose a certain skill set. It's much easier to balance let's say 9 classes with 3 talent trees each then it is to balance 50 skills that can be mixed and matched at will.
Yes, it's possible to balance a classless system. By opting for a classless system you make balancing the game much harder though -- if the majority of MMOs have significant balance problems with a Class system, do you really want the devs making it even harder for them to balance things by opting for a Class-less system?
Players gravitating towards different builds in class-less systems is even more of a red flag, as it means those playstyles better be balanced or you've let players steer themselves towards failure/inefficiency. In the end, going with a class system means you commit to at least 9 (or however many classes) playstyles being competitive, and none of them being bad choices -- which isn't to say devs don't still fail on that commitment, but usually it's by smaller margins than classless systems.
Talent-style customization systems are enough. You can ensure the basics of the class are balanced, but let players have a similar depth of customization through a talent system.
Even though classless is stronger overall, I don't think classless is outright a bad move. It's popular with players for not being the "same old" system they're used to. And you want some of that strewn about your game. You just don't want every system in your game to be new and shiny, because it typically means you won't achieve an optimal level of polish (because when working on systems which aren't the cookie-cutter MMO build, you have to put forth a lot of effort to make sure they work: such as the significant amount of extra balancing work needed to make a classless system work.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
someone else said that everyone ends up the same...
People don't end up the same as a rule, but they do in a poorly designed skill based system. They did in UO. They did a lot less in AC, but you'd still see a lot of overlap. Back in AC my main character was equally proficient in melee as they were in magic. Of course that was back before they balanced Gertar's dagger with other more expensive melee skills. At the time there were plenty of melee mages around throwing off any role diversity.
If players can make their character fill every role then they will. Its a lot harder to do this in a class based game.
There is enough gray area here that it will be hard to make a definitive list of pro's and con's for either system. DDO is class based, but its flexible enough that there is no lack of diversity. On the other hand UO is full of plate armor wearing people screaming Corp Por Corp Por!
The only way to really balance a skill based system is to limit it.
You have to limit the number of skills a player can get, and perhaps even go as far as to limit the types of skills they can get.
So you can still make custom classes, but you can't make a Tank Mage who can Heal. But you could make a Tank Mage or a Mage Healer or a Tank who Heals.
This cuts down on the possible combinations players can come up with, which makes balance easier for the devs, and takes a lot less money and time.
Many MMO players who argue on forums assume that games are made in some magical vacuum where time, money, and developer talent are infinite resources and they don't do something in a game because they are lazy or stupid, but because it's not feasable or technically possible.
Also many forum junkies lack perspective to understand the other people like to play games in different ways then they do.
As a company, a development studio has to pick their battles due to time and money constraints, so they pick the ones that they feel will make the best game for the audience they are trying to attract.
The one rule for making many different types of players happy is choice. Different strokes for different folks.
Problem is if you give too many choices, the choices themselves on an individual basis don't matter as much, they don't have as much impact, and they get less developer time and effort and you end up with a very high possibility of bloat and excess and unpolished games which usually always fail.
Do you want 50 classes where they are all unbalanced and unfinished and not fun to play or 5 that are perfectly balanced and finished and fun?
Developers have to find a happy medium between what they know they can accomplish to give players as much as possible, but make sure those things actually work and are fun to the players otherwise they are a waste of development time.
and since the second class isnt reroll(no reroll on second class is very cool)
can you imagine the chaos
on asnother subject most of the game are grindfest for one reason
china and all that part of the world, love this grind because when say they worked x amount of hours
and they are at the top
they re not gona be a lot with the title
if you think say athenelol in wow is the best paladin in the world (warcraft)
you take any asian game dam the guy or girl that is equal to athene in those grind fest game is what the god of gaming to have grinded to the top
and for all the grind hater get used to it
why?
asia love the grind fest
say china is a 1.2 billion total people
usa and canada is what .350 billion
in that i count everyone but we all know that china is just at the beginning of gaming like us in the 80s
in 10 years its all gona be grindfest, america isnt a big market enough to be worth the trouble when the company can put a game online and do the f2p system
wow is probably one succes story the other could eat total wow player at least 2 time
take 1 game ,silkroad online sucky graphic sro will probably update graphic soon
but try to play that game server are full 15 hours a day the only time it isnt full is when those asian sleep
23 or 24 million play thay game
everytime that company put a new server on it get filled faster then they can count to 3
thats an older game then wow lol
a lot of f2p game have more player then wow
those company are very camera shy
but one thing is sure grinfest is gona invade america ,so better get used to it
So, class or cookie-cutter template (basically what you said yourself). Any difference? One is the company puts restrictions on your choices, and the other is you're restricting yourself but you think you have choice.
It's harder to do and effects every aspect of the game. Devs are lazy and the ones with the resources are looking for guarentees not maybe's
Thanks for validating my points about the average MMO forum poster.
The thing is I wasn't up for an argument, so after reading your post I just thought I put my opinion, which just so happened to be different to yours. Sorry about hadn't realised you had a monopoly on being right.
I though most of what you posted was either drivel that anyone with a brain cell would take for granted and not feel the need to post or flat out wrong. I just didn't feel like posting reasons as to why, so I didn't quote, I didn't see much point.
Oh but you are still wrong imo.
Besides which I think I'll take being average as a compliment coming from someone so special.
----- The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
So, class or cookie-cutter template (basically what you said yourself). Any difference? One is the company puts restrictions on your choices, and the other is you're restricting yourself but you think you have choice.
No the point is that class is a concrete decision. In a game like WoW, the Warrior will never be able to heal.
In a cookie-cutter template situation, it's actually the same thing as classes...
By restrictions on choices, it's simply saying that you can't be the best at everything.
Every skill based MMO has had some restrictions. UO you could have 700 total skill points or 7 skills at GM. SWG had a cap on the number of skill points you could spend... it's all the same.
All I'm talking about that is different is that you make a custom-class creation system where you are only allowed a certain range of choices.
Again using WoW (cause it's an example most MMO players can relate to) you wouldn't want a player to be able to create a character with the Priest Holy tree, Druid Restoration tree, and Paladin Holy tree and have all of their corresponding abilities and enough talent points to fill them all up because it'd be way too overpowered.
Even WoW limits your choices by only giving you a certain number of talent points. Otherwise Paladins and Druids would be Gods because they could tank, deal tons of damage, and heal.
first and biggest - familiarity: A: try and remember that all MMORPGs were originally derived from PnP RPGs, the vast majority of which are fairly rigidly class based. (The few that aren't /weren't have mostly fallen out of popularity and publication) B: It really is easier to market and get people to buy into a game that is fundamentally the same as everything else on the market...and effectively every mainstream MMO is class based.
Then add the coding issues, it's not just that classes are simpler - it's that they allow more diverse and interesting combat. In a pure skill template system, when everyone is a self healing, tank/mage there is no diversity of character roles...no way to script a fight to require seperate crowd control, healing, aggro management, ranged dps etc.
added: and please don't try to argue that SWG or AO weren't class based. They were. The classes were just a bit looser than usual and allowed a degree of customization.
So, class or cookie-cutter template (basically what you said yourself). Any difference? One is the company puts restrictions on your choices, and the other is you're restricting yourself but you think you have choice.
The difference is exactly how Heerobya has been describing. In the former (class), the system will have superior balance and polish because the devs know the limitations of the system and can focus on making that known quantity shine. The latter is more complicated for the dev to work on which means that -- dev costs being equal -- it will be harder to balance and much harder to gaurantee a polished playstyle.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
So, class or cookie-cutter template (basically what you said yourself). Any difference? One is the company puts restrictions on your choices, and the other is you're restricting yourself but you think you have choice.
The difference is exactly how Heerobya has been describing. In the former (class), the system will have superior balance and polish because the devs know the limitations of the system and can focus on making that known quantity shine. The latter is more complicated for the dev to work on which means that -- dev costs being equal -- it will be harder to balance and much harder to gaurantee a polished playstyle.
Absolutely! While it's not perfect, I think the class system works. Of course, how well a developer works with and implements that system is where the quality varies.
It's harder to do and effects every aspect of the game. Devs are lazy and the ones with the resources are looking for guarentees not maybe's
Thanks for validating my points about the average MMO forum poster.
The thing is I wasn't up for an argument, so after reading your post I just thought I put my opinion, which just so happened to be different to yours. Sorry about hadn't realised you had a monopoly on being right.
I though most of what you posted was either drivel that anyone with a brain cell would take for granted and not feel the need to post or flat out wrong. I just didn't feel like posting reasons as to why, so I didn't quote, I didn't see much point.
Oh but you are still wrong imo.
Besides which I think I'll take being average as a compliment coming from someone so special.
So are you saying that even though a MMOG takes years to create with large teams of developers and millions of dollars, the designers are just throwing together some crappy half thought out system in 15 minutes? I would guess that they have put quite a bit more thought into their game systems then any one of us has.
Try creating a complicated game sometime. You'll see that even the best thought out systems just don't work out the way you envisioned them half the time.
First off, Loke666 I admire all your posts you make, you show some true intellect, props to you mate. As for the classless MMO's, It's a simple theory that even the CEO of Bioware made an statement on, people want to be guided. Give a person a open seamless world with a character with every possibility to go out and learn anything they want and the majority will become lost unknowing what to do until there is either a full walkthrough forum guide on how to be a "pwnage character" or a way of gaining strength towards endgame content or become an uber PVP'r.
Developers have attempted classless systems, Planetside was amazing in this regard and Anarchy Online (My first MMO) was amazing like this too, then again AO had a LOT of classes to choose from, hopefully the future will remain open to more revolutionary gaming development, but communities will have to back the developers and show support rather than let companies crumble and fall into backruptcy because they know they have no market to advertise to.
I have yet to see a classless game where player characters fill more narrow roles creating a need for a lot of diversity.
As the other poster stated, EVE Online.
Take two identical characters in Eve and put one in the cheapest ship in the game and one in the most expensive. Who wins? Eve has NO balance what so ever and its not designed to. Its too radical. The roles in Eve also don't translate to traditional MMOs since Eve doesn't have any real PvE. Theres no such thing as cannon fodder class in any other MMO besides Eve=)
Whatever works in Eve doesn't translate to anything outside the game. Its stupid to bring it up.
They want cool characters with cool gear and cool abilities, and they want to not suck.
Having a game with classes gives the player at least some security and comfort that the developers will garauntee support and updates/balancing for their chosen class.
The problem is that these class systems tend to be very limiting. The limits are designed to encourage grouping because one player shouldn't be powerful enough to do everything on their own and not need other players.
MMOs are social online games ya know.
All I am suggesting is that you let players choose how they wil fill the role that they wish to fill.
To do this, you'd need a system where you made a custom class but there were restrictions.
If I wanted to make a character that could tame creatures as pets and use powerful arcane magic to defeat my enemies, then that's awesome and cool and good. That same character shouldn't also be good at melee combat and able to heal themselves. That's just not fair nor is it balanced.
Maybe instead you want to have tamed creatures as pets to fight along side you but also be a healer. That's cool and awesome and good. But you can't also be a heavy magic or melee damage dealer.
So you put limitations on how many roles a player can fill at one time and how well they can fill those roles. Do they specialize? Do the take a little of each?
The big problem with hybrids in most class based MMO's that you can't be jack of all trades because you are forced to choose to focus on one aspect of your character. This is much larger problem involving the way games are made with inflation of health pools and damage dealing as a form of progression rather then actual skill (and I mean player skill) progression...
but that's a whole other post.
You could have a character that could do all 3 of the standard roles, tank, heal, and deal damage, but they'd have to be limited on each of them.
The problem for most MMOs right now is they are so number and min/max based that you can't walk into PvP or a end-game PvE setting without min maxing. You have to choose your roll and maximize that roll.
You ever see players in raid who do a little tanking here and there, a little healing here and there, and a little damage dealing here and there? Sometimes yes, but not really. Do these characters have a perfect 23/23/24 hybrid build (WoW)?
No because they'd be horrible..
So in MMOs that work with increasing number inflation, and are based around well defined party roles a class system just makes a lot more sense.
You'd have to design an MMO from the ground up to really take full advantage of a skill based advancement system or some kind of hybrid. UO really worked because there was no hit point and damage inflation. Nor where there stats on gear and levels and all that.
So as long as you have games where you gain X number of hitpoints and mana as you level up and you get better gear with better stats as you level up.. the whole thing Everquest started for MMOs that's the basis for most single player RPGs and Pen and Paper RPGs...
So, class or cookie-cutter template (basically what you said yourself). Any difference? One is the company puts restrictions on your choices, and the other is you're restricting yourself but you think you have choice.
The difference is exactly how Heerobya has been describing. In the former (class), the system will have superior balance and polish because the devs know the limitations of the system and can focus on making that known quantity shine. The latter is more complicated for the dev to work on which means that -- dev costs being equal -- it will be harder to balance and much harder to gaurantee a polished playstyle.
Absolutely! While it's not perfect, I think the class system works. Of course, how well a developer works with and implements that system is where the quality varies.
Hang on. Sorry but what is being said is that given equal money and time a class base game is easier to implement and design, that it will result in a more polished experience and far simpler balance. It will also mean a far easier (and cheaper) job for xpacs, maintenence etc once the game releases.
So sorry but explain to me how that isn't lazy. "It's easier to build and maintain and it will probably make us more money as we won't have huge numbers of people leaving in the first few months while we balance and fine tune the game. Also pretty much all our well funded competition is doing exactly the same thing it must be the right choice and afterall the gamer has none".
A lot of smaller underfunded indie dev teams are going for the classless skill system, while all of the larger software houses are going archetypal, now why would that be? They see a niche or that they realise that these bigger companies are slow and pushing through forms of innovation is near impossible. Slap on a big IP (as this seems to be the only way to differenciate yourself from the crowd now - what happened to original gameplay?) and just watch the money roll in for as little expenditure and effort as possible.
----- The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
Comments
/agree
I've always envisioned a sysem where when you create a character you have a huge list of all these templates, pre-made character types like Paladins, Rangers, Beastmasters etc. etc.
But then down at the bottom, kind of like in old UO, you have an option to create a custom class.
You'd only be able to pick let's just say two "main" skill groups so that you couldn't create a character that was too good at everything, and also maybe two secondary skill groups.
Like a Paladin would have let's say Primary skill groups of Heavy Armor (plate and large shields) and Retribution (offensive Holy-based magic) with secondary skill groups of a melee weapon (maybe Maces) and then some kind of Buff oriented skill group maybe called "Leadership".
Where as a Shadow Knight might have Primaries of Swords and Unholy offensive magic with secondaries of Heavy Armor and a debuff oriented skill tree maybe called something like Intimidation.
Then you could go and modify these Templates to further customize your character. Like replace the Maces of the Paladin with Axes or take the Shadow Knight and replace the Swords with 2H Swords for Primary and then not putting any of their skills points in Heavy Armor into shields as they level...
That kind of thing...
You are mistaken in thinking that everyone in AC is the same. AC even to this day (10 years later) has very different character setups. Both for PvP and PvM. You are using generalities that all skill based games end up with everyone playing the same setup. This is only the case if one skill is overpowering, or if most skills are useless, and this is no different from a class based game with an overpowered class that everyone uses.
The truth is that if the skills are setup correctly skill based systems allow for more character customization and actually ends up with lots of different character layouts running around. In UO I agree that most people ended up the same but there also weren't very many skills. In AC where there is lots of skills and you are directly limited to how many skill points you get to design your character, the players pick different paths depending on what they like.
As the other poster stated, EVE Online.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
I think the most simplistic reason is that people still want to play a role. Such as spy, mage, etc.. It's not just about "what's your skill build like". When you break down gaming to skill builds, then it looses the romanticism that RP classes can offer. But hey I'm all about player freedom and choices. Why not have a game with pre-built classes, and of course a "hybrid/generic" non-class where the gamer has the choice of skill building, and allocating his/her own attributes.
Why can't MMOs offer both?
CO uses a classless system. But like I said in my example, players will most likely specialize in a specific category of superpowers. In the case of CO each category has abilities to fill nearly any role so your category selection has almost no effect on what role you plan to fill. The CO Sorcery video showed offensive abilities, pets, heals, and CC all in one power category. Players won't have roles in that game, at least not in the way they do in CoX.
The irony of this all is that the most complex character development system we have seen in an MMOG was a class based system. I'm talking about D&D Online. You choose your skills, class, and abilities. You can really gimp your character if you don't know what you're doing.
Being a skill based game or a class based game has no bearing on how complex the system is or how smart you need to be when using it. You could just as easily have an idiot-proof skill based system as you could have an overly complex class based system (like DDO!).
You are mistaken in thinking that everyone in AC is the same. AC even to this day (10 years later) has very different character setups.
I think you mis-read something up there...
"We have seen through 12 years of UO, 8 years of AC and 6 years of EVE that this has NEVER been the case." (the second line... which was after the first line that said... someone else said that everyone ends up the same...)
It is the common arguement which is odd... only because have any of these people looked at class based games?
At the end point of class based games... Every tank has the same gear... Every mage has the same gear etc etc
Or you look at DAoC and when a certain class was seen as over powered in pvp... that class was suddenly everywhere...
So its not really an arguement I ever pay attention to...
Heero basically rocked this thread:
Yes, it's possible to balance a classless system. By opting for a classless system you make balancing the game much harder though -- if the majority of MMOs have significant balance problems with a Class system, do you really want the devs making it even harder for them to balance things by opting for a Class-less system?
Players gravitating towards different builds in class-less systems is even more of a red flag, as it means those playstyles better be balanced or you've let players steer themselves towards failure/inefficiency. In the end, going with a class system means you commit to at least 9 (or however many classes) playstyles being competitive, and none of them being bad choices -- which isn't to say devs don't still fail on that commitment, but usually it's by smaller margins than classless systems.
Talent-style customization systems are enough. You can ensure the basics of the class are balanced, but let players have a similar depth of customization through a talent system.
Even though classless is stronger overall, I don't think classless is outright a bad move. It's popular with players for not being the "same old" system they're used to. And you want some of that strewn about your game. You just don't want every system in your game to be new and shiny, because it typically means you won't achieve an optimal level of polish (because when working on systems which aren't the cookie-cutter MMO build, you have to put forth a lot of effort to make sure they work: such as the significant amount of extra balancing work needed to make a classless system work.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
People don't end up the same as a rule, but they do in a poorly designed skill based system. They did in UO. They did a lot less in AC, but you'd still see a lot of overlap. Back in AC my main character was equally proficient in melee as they were in magic. Of course that was back before they balanced Gertar's dagger with other more expensive melee skills. At the time there were plenty of melee mages around throwing off any role diversity.
If players can make their character fill every role then they will. Its a lot harder to do this in a class based game.
There is enough gray area here that it will be hard to make a definitive list of pro's and con's for either system. DDO is class based, but its flexible enough that there is no lack of diversity. On the other hand UO is full of plate armor wearing people screaming Corp Por Corp Por!
The only way to really balance a skill based system is to limit it.
You have to limit the number of skills a player can get, and perhaps even go as far as to limit the types of skills they can get.
So you can still make custom classes, but you can't make a Tank Mage who can Heal. But you could make a Tank Mage or a Mage Healer or a Tank who Heals.
This cuts down on the possible combinations players can come up with, which makes balance easier for the devs, and takes a lot less money and time.
Many MMO players who argue on forums assume that games are made in some magical vacuum where time, money, and developer talent are infinite resources and they don't do something in a game because they are lazy or stupid, but because it's not feasable or technically possible.
Also many forum junkies lack perspective to understand the other people like to play games in different ways then they do.
As a company, a development studio has to pick their battles due to time and money constraints, so they pick the ones that they feel will make the best game for the audience they are trying to attract.
The one rule for making many different types of players happy is choice. Different strokes for different folks.
Problem is if you give too many choices, the choices themselves on an individual basis don't matter as much, they don't have as much impact, and they get less developer time and effort and you end up with a very high possibility of bloat and excess and unpolished games which usually always fail.
Do you want 50 classes where they are all unbalanced and unfinished and not fun to play or 5 that are perfectly balanced and finished and fun?
Developers have to find a happy medium between what they know they can accomplish to give players as much as possible, but make sure those things actually work and are fun to the players otherwise they are a waste of development time.
It's harder to do and effects every aspect of the game. Devs are lazy and the ones with the resources are looking for guarentees not maybe's
-----
The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
Thanks for validating my points about the average MMO forum poster.
i aggre with tsome of the op saying
check rune of magic online
you literally CAN spec a bad combo
and since the second class isnt reroll(no reroll on second class is very cool)
can you imagine the chaos
on asnother subject most of the game are grindfest for one reason
china and all that part of the world, love this grind because when say they worked x amount of hours
and they are at the top
they re not gona be a lot with the title
if you think say athenelol in wow is the best paladin in the world (warcraft)
you take any asian game dam the guy or girl that is equal to athene in those grind fest game is what the god of gaming to have grinded to the top
and for all the grind hater get used to it
why?
asia love the grind fest
say china is a 1.2 billion total people
usa and canada is what .350 billion
in that i count everyone but we all know that china is just at the beginning of gaming like us in the 80s
in 10 years its all gona be grindfest, america isnt a big market enough to be worth the trouble when the company can put a game online and do the f2p system
wow is probably one succes story the other could eat total wow player at least 2 time
take 1 game ,silkroad online sucky graphic sro will probably update graphic soon
but try to play that game server are full 15 hours a day the only time it isnt full is when those asian sleep
23 or 24 million play thay game
everytime that company put a new server on it get filled faster then they can count to 3
thats an older game then wow lol
a lot of f2p game have more player then wow
those company are very camera shy
but one thing is sure grinfest is gona invade america ,so better get used to it
So, class or cookie-cutter template (basically what you said yourself). Any difference? One is the company puts restrictions on your choices, and the other is you're restricting yourself but you think you have choice.
The devs are lazy is a tired copout statement. Can't come up with something more original? I guess you are lazy too...
Thanks for validating my points about the average MMO forum poster.
The thing is I wasn't up for an argument, so after reading your post I just thought I put my opinion, which just so happened to be different to yours. Sorry about hadn't realised you had a monopoly on being right.
I though most of what you posted was either drivel that anyone with a brain cell would take for granted and not feel the need to post or flat out wrong. I just didn't feel like posting reasons as to why, so I didn't quote, I didn't see much point.
Oh but you are still wrong imo.
Besides which I think I'll take being average as a compliment coming from someone so special.
-----
The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
No the point is that class is a concrete decision. In a game like WoW, the Warrior will never be able to heal.
In a cookie-cutter template situation, it's actually the same thing as classes...
By restrictions on choices, it's simply saying that you can't be the best at everything.
Every skill based MMO has had some restrictions. UO you could have 700 total skill points or 7 skills at GM. SWG had a cap on the number of skill points you could spend... it's all the same.
All I'm talking about that is different is that you make a custom-class creation system where you are only allowed a certain range of choices.
Again using WoW (cause it's an example most MMO players can relate to) you wouldn't want a player to be able to create a character with the Priest Holy tree, Druid Restoration tree, and Paladin Holy tree and have all of their corresponding abilities and enough talent points to fill them all up because it'd be way too overpowered.
Even WoW limits your choices by only giving you a certain number of talent points. Otherwise Paladins and Druids would be Gods because they could tank, deal tons of damage, and heal.
first and biggest - familiarity: A: try and remember that all MMORPGs were originally derived from PnP RPGs, the vast majority of which are fairly rigidly class based. (The few that aren't /weren't have mostly fallen out of popularity and publication) B: It really is easier to market and get people to buy into a game that is fundamentally the same as everything else on the market...and effectively every mainstream MMO is class based.
Then add the coding issues, it's not just that classes are simpler - it's that they allow more diverse and interesting combat. In a pure skill template system, when everyone is a self healing, tank/mage there is no diversity of character roles...no way to script a fight to require seperate crowd control, healing, aggro management, ranged dps etc.
added: and please don't try to argue that SWG or AO weren't class based. They were. The classes were just a bit looser than usual and allowed a degree of customization.
The devs are lazy is a tired copout statement. Can't come up with something more original? I guess you are lazy too...
QFT
If you read my post mrw0lf i never actually talked about any opinion being better, class or skill, being right or wrong...
I was saying simply that devs have to make choices, and the reasons they make certain decisions involves a LOT more then you seem to realize.
The difference is exactly how Heerobya has been describing. In the former (class), the system will have superior balance and polish because the devs know the limitations of the system and can focus on making that known quantity shine. The latter is more complicated for the dev to work on which means that -- dev costs being equal -- it will be harder to balance and much harder to gaurantee a polished playstyle.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
The difference is exactly how Heerobya has been describing. In the former (class), the system will have superior balance and polish because the devs know the limitations of the system and can focus on making that known quantity shine. The latter is more complicated for the dev to work on which means that -- dev costs being equal -- it will be harder to balance and much harder to gaurantee a polished playstyle.
Absolutely! While it's not perfect, I think the class system works. Of course, how well a developer works with and implements that system is where the quality varies.
Thanks for validating my points about the average MMO forum poster.
The thing is I wasn't up for an argument, so after reading your post I just thought I put my opinion, which just so happened to be different to yours. Sorry about hadn't realised you had a monopoly on being right.
I though most of what you posted was either drivel that anyone with a brain cell would take for granted and not feel the need to post or flat out wrong. I just didn't feel like posting reasons as to why, so I didn't quote, I didn't see much point.
Oh but you are still wrong imo.
Besides which I think I'll take being average as a compliment coming from someone so special.
So are you saying that even though a MMOG takes years to create with large teams of developers and millions of dollars, the designers are just throwing together some crappy half thought out system in 15 minutes? I would guess that they have put quite a bit more thought into their game systems then any one of us has.
Try creating a complicated game sometime. You'll see that even the best thought out systems just don't work out the way you envisioned them half the time.
First off, Loke666 I admire all your posts you make, you show some true intellect, props to you mate. As for the classless MMO's, It's a simple theory that even the CEO of Bioware made an statement on, people want to be guided. Give a person a open seamless world with a character with every possibility to go out and learn anything they want and the majority will become lost unknowing what to do until there is either a full walkthrough forum guide on how to be a "pwnage character" or a way of gaining strength towards endgame content or become an uber PVP'r.
Developers have attempted classless systems, Planetside was amazing in this regard and Anarchy Online (My first MMO) was amazing like this too, then again AO had a LOT of classes to choose from, hopefully the future will remain open to more revolutionary gaming development, but communities will have to back the developers and show support rather than let companies crumble and fall into backruptcy because they know they have no market to advertise to.
TwitchTV: iNeoki
As the other poster stated, EVE Online.
Take two identical characters in Eve and put one in the cheapest ship in the game and one in the most expensive. Who wins? Eve has NO balance what so ever and its not designed to. Its too radical. The roles in Eve also don't translate to traditional MMOs since Eve doesn't have any real PvE. Theres no such thing as cannon fodder class in any other MMO besides Eve=)
Whatever works in Eve doesn't translate to anything outside the game. Its stupid to bring it up.
At the end of the day players want to be cool.
They want cool characters with cool gear and cool abilities, and they want to not suck.
Having a game with classes gives the player at least some security and comfort that the developers will garauntee support and updates/balancing for their chosen class.
The problem is that these class systems tend to be very limiting. The limits are designed to encourage grouping because one player shouldn't be powerful enough to do everything on their own and not need other players.
MMOs are social online games ya know.
All I am suggesting is that you let players choose how they wil fill the role that they wish to fill.
To do this, you'd need a system where you made a custom class but there were restrictions.
If I wanted to make a character that could tame creatures as pets and use powerful arcane magic to defeat my enemies, then that's awesome and cool and good. That same character shouldn't also be good at melee combat and able to heal themselves. That's just not fair nor is it balanced.
Maybe instead you want to have tamed creatures as pets to fight along side you but also be a healer. That's cool and awesome and good. But you can't also be a heavy magic or melee damage dealer.
So you put limitations on how many roles a player can fill at one time and how well they can fill those roles. Do they specialize? Do the take a little of each?
The big problem with hybrids in most class based MMO's that you can't be jack of all trades because you are forced to choose to focus on one aspect of your character. This is much larger problem involving the way games are made with inflation of health pools and damage dealing as a form of progression rather then actual skill (and I mean player skill) progression...
but that's a whole other post.
You could have a character that could do all 3 of the standard roles, tank, heal, and deal damage, but they'd have to be limited on each of them.
The problem for most MMOs right now is they are so number and min/max based that you can't walk into PvP or a end-game PvE setting without min maxing. You have to choose your roll and maximize that roll.
You ever see players in raid who do a little tanking here and there, a little healing here and there, and a little damage dealing here and there? Sometimes yes, but not really. Do these characters have a perfect 23/23/24 hybrid build (WoW)?
No because they'd be horrible..
So in MMOs that work with increasing number inflation, and are based around well defined party roles a class system just makes a lot more sense.
You'd have to design an MMO from the ground up to really take full advantage of a skill based advancement system or some kind of hybrid. UO really worked because there was no hit point and damage inflation. Nor where there stats on gear and levels and all that.
So as long as you have games where you gain X number of hitpoints and mana as you level up and you get better gear with better stats as you level up.. the whole thing Everquest started for MMOs that's the basis for most single player RPGs and Pen and Paper RPGs...
You're going to have classes.
The difference is exactly how Heerobya has been describing. In the former (class), the system will have superior balance and polish because the devs know the limitations of the system and can focus on making that known quantity shine. The latter is more complicated for the dev to work on which means that -- dev costs being equal -- it will be harder to balance and much harder to gaurantee a polished playstyle.
Absolutely! While it's not perfect, I think the class system works. Of course, how well a developer works with and implements that system is where the quality varies.
Hang on. Sorry but what is being said is that given equal money and time a class base game is easier to implement and design, that it will result in a more polished experience and far simpler balance. It will also mean a far easier (and cheaper) job for xpacs, maintenence etc once the game releases.
So sorry but explain to me how that isn't lazy. "It's easier to build and maintain and it will probably make us more money as we won't have huge numbers of people leaving in the first few months while we balance and fine tune the game. Also pretty much all our well funded competition is doing exactly the same thing it must be the right choice and afterall the gamer has none".
A lot of smaller underfunded indie dev teams are going for the classless skill system, while all of the larger software houses are going archetypal, now why would that be? They see a niche or that they realise that these bigger companies are slow and pushing through forms of innovation is near impossible. Slap on a big IP (as this seems to be the only way to differenciate yourself from the crowd now - what happened to original gameplay?) and just watch the money roll in for as little expenditure and effort as possible.
-----
The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.