Think of it like this: If you have a bowl of ice cream and it is chocolate ice cream, it will taste like chocolate ice cream. If you have a bowl of chocolate and vanilla but you keep them seperate, then you can taste chocolate and you can taste vanilla. But if you mix chcolate with all 36 flavors, it will all taste the same and not be very appatising.
I used to think that classes were restrictive and lame.
Then I realised that every game had classes (even skill-based games) as if they weren't built into the core concept of the game, the players themselves defined them. Min-maxing always happens and cookie-cutter builds emerge to which the difficulty of new content is frequently scaled.
Given the choice, I would choose to allow the game developers (rather than the players) to control balance.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Well said heerobya. I agree completely with everything except the quoted part. You just explained how to make a balanced classless system. Even though no one has had the balls to tacle this problem in a traditional MMOG setting, I do think it can be done and done extremely well.
Almost like the guy that said the developers are lazy, I think most of them just haven't been willing to take the risk. Ideas are a dime a dozen. I have faith that the developers know what to do, they just haven't been willing to take a risk and do it.
I'm sure we'll see it done right eventually. Probably not in a mainstream game, but we'll see it. Talking about it makes me realize how much untapped potential there is in the MMOG market.
Most people are content with choosing a defined archetype or class because it is familiar, because they can understand it and it makes sense to them. It's basic human psychology. Let's take the example of buying a new computer. Most people will take a pre-assembled complete PC or bundle/package instead of buying each part piece by piece and constructing it themselves. Even someone who has the knowledge and skill required to build a PC piece by piece in many cases will still choose the bundle or pre-assembled PC. Why? Could be anything from perceived value to simple laziness. This also applies to MMOs and the skills versus class argument. Are there those of us that would like to build our own character by selecting individual skills? You bet there are. But in all honesty, most people would instead choose a pre-made bundle or they would select skills that would make their character fit very well into the pre-defined role or archetype of a class anyway. Throw in balance issues and production time/costs... It really is a no-brainer for most developers. I hope we get a game that is very high quality and balanced that uses skill based advancement or at the very least customizable classes to better fit your "ideal" character type... but given the track record of previous MMOs and what is popular with MOST gamers (not those that visit sites like this, we are the minority) then yeah.. classes and archetypes are here to stay. But I do think we will start to see more variety and combination/customization systems even in class based games.
I see where you're coming from but, thats a horrible example. People who buy prebuilt computers really have no idea what they are doing or just starting out with computers. Anyone who is somewhat tech savy will probably build their own computer. Its much cheaper and better.
First off, Loke666 I admire all your posts you make, you show some true intellect, props to you mate. As for the classless MMO's, It's a simple theory that even the CEO of Bioware made an statement on, people want to be guided. Give a person a open seamless world with a character with every possibility to go out and learn anything they want and the majority will become lost unknowing what to do until there is either a full walkthrough forum guide on how to be a "pwnage character" or a way of gaining strength towards endgame content or become an uber PVP'r. Developers have attempted classless systems, Planetside was amazing in this regard and Anarchy Online (My first MMO) was amazing like this too, then again AO had a LOT of classes to choose from, hopefully the future will remain open to more revolutionary gaming development, but communities will have to back the developers and show support rather than let companies crumble and fall into backruptcy because they know they have no market to advertise to.
Look at the comments from Muzyka there, think about it, this guy while not being anywhere near actually designing the game does have the final say and is responsible for giving direction and setting tone. Do you think that he's unbias? You think even if he had some lead designer come to him and tell him about the new classless system, he's going to look at it with an open mind? Of course not, he knows the safest route to make money, thats why he has his job, and I'm sitting here explaining why I want his job.
Tbf his comment isn't just about a classless design (at least I hope not) he's also talking about a more open, sandbox design, the 2 are not the same. But even then some of his comments lack understanding (like many of the earlier posts). In truth we havn't seen a truely well done skill based game, max/min of characters shouldn't mean anything if its done well. But it displays perfectly my point about devs mind sets, they think about creating a classless game and immediately look to copy what has already been done.
----- The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
At the end of the day players want to be cool. They want cool characters with cool gear and cool abilities, and they want to not suck.
That actually is a great summation of what it all really boils down to. Classes, or even basic templates to build from, are tried and true methods of letting players head down the path of cool while avoiding or at least minimizing the chance of suck.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Try creating a complicated game sometime. You'll see that even the best thought out systems just don't work out the way you envisioned them half the time.
There's a poster on these boards with a great quote in his sig, something about it not being my job to tell them how to build a game that's what they get paid for.
----- The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
Any game where the challenge comes from increasingly large numbers due to levels and gear and more powerful abilities with increasing damage numbers you are going to have classes or cookie-cutter builds due to min/maxing the numbers.
Any game where you have defined party roles that follow an archetype scheme (tank/heal/dps) you are going to have classes or cookie-cutter builds due to min/maxing the numbers.
In order to do a classless game you'd have to make a game where the challenge comes from increasingly difficult content not from numbers on a spreadsheet getting larger and larger and larger.
One of the basic tenants of RPG's from the days of Pen and Paper to the single player games so beloved on consoles and now the most popular MMOs is that your character becomes more powerful as you progress.
The most commonly accepted method to do this is by increasing the numbers. You have 1,000 health now instead of 100 and you deal 500 damage with your Fireball instead of 50.
Throw in the fact that RPG's have also been largely focused on getting new magical treasures your further compound the scaling issue.
To remove all of this, to create a game where you don't need classes and defined roles and uber loots you'd have to focus your game on the other main component of RPG's that people have loved since the days of Pen and Paper.
The story.
Character advancement and story are the basic principles behind nearly every RPG game ever made, including MMORPGs. It's like the foundation.
Take away the story part and you are left with a hallow game only about phat loots and big numbers.
Take away the advancement part and you are only left with the story, but how do you tell millions of different players a story and not make it the same for everyone?
One option is to let players make their own stories, but the problem with this is that the vast majority (as has been proven) would rather be entertained and have a story unfold before them. This is why we play many games and watch TV, watch movies, read books... cause most of us really aren't that creative lol. We like to be entertained.
This is kind of "higher thought" on the class versus skill debate but it's definitely relevant.
Do you want players to play a role in the story you are telling or do you want players to make their own stories and forge their own path? Some combination or hybrid of the two?
The predominant answer has been proven to be the first. This is why you have more linear, story focused, "theme park" MMOs with classes that have defined roles.
This isn't a bad thing by it's very nature, it's actually quite popular. But there are a group of people who don't want that, they want to forge their own stories and create their own unique role.
Unfortunately, that segment of the population is not large enough to warrant the risk of investing millions of dollars into a product only to have it met with very limited acceptance and profitability.
I can't quite understand why skill based, classless(although class based skill systems are great too) systems are not more prominent in MMOs but they should be. They are far superior to class/level based systems in almost every way conceivable. The majority of arguments against skill systems are either over-exaggerated, prominent in class systems too, or are simply a flaw in one or two implementations.'
The claim that "skill systems are really hard to balance" is a joke as I have yet to see a class based game that is remotely balanced. WoW, WAR, AoC, all you see is "X class is OP nerf them!" or "X class sucks buff us". Part of my reason for quitting WoW was because the classes/specs were so unbalanced in arenas, and that was the primary form of PvP they were pushing. On the contrary, I rarely see balance issues in Eve, and Guild Wars has very balanced combat.
"In skill based systems, everyone min/maxes so they all have the same skills anyway", which isn't necessarily true, but is completely true of every class based game. You can guarenteed that every class in a class based game is going to have pretty much the same skills as everyone else in their class. Sure, UO had a flaw in it's design, and there were a lot of tank mages, but again that is a flaw in a specific system, not the idea as a whole. You are going to get people that min/max in EVERY game, reguardless of progression system(just go on a level 20-40ish character in WoW and I guarentee the majority of those characters you see around you will be one or two particular classes deemed "OP" at the time). People always flock to what is over powered. Does that mean everyone does? No chance. Sure, in SWG there were a lot of defense stackers. I never had a defensive build and I did just fine. In Guild Wars, you can get 20 different people in your AB and odds are not one of them has the exact same skills as anyone else.
How are skill systems better? Well, there is plethora of reasons:
You get to create your very own class! Customize your character exactly the way you want it, not how the developer decides you should play it. If you want to play a very specific, almost pre-made archtype, then you have the option to do so. Want to play something completely abnormal and whacky? You get that option too. You get the OPTION, and you aren't forced to do anything.
In class based games, often the only way to try a new class is to create a new character and regrind. In skill based games, you usually can "drop" skill and learn different ones instead. You are no longer fully dependent on the devs to balance your character, and decide how good your character is. If your character has a sever lacking in a certain area, it is easy to change it and get better.
Skill based games add a lot more variety. In a class based game you see "Oh a priest", then maybe have to figure out if they are damage or healing specced, and then you know exactly what they can and can't do, what their weakness is, etc. A skill based game you say " Oh a guy", and have absolutely no idea what their skills are, what their strengths and weaknesses are, it is all a mystery.
Freedom freedom freedom. Long live the dabbler.
I could go on and on and on.
So why aren't skill systems more prominent?
My guess it is developers afriad to deviate from "the norm". Developers chasing after the WoW crowd. The average person too afraid to try and give something new a chance. I'm sure there are many reasons. None of them justify the current situations in MMOs.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike Loved: Star Wars Galaxies Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
Even in class free games there tends to be a "best" build and players will flock to that "type". So even players in class free games end up placing *themselves* into a class, lol.
Agreed. Ya just can't argue with history.
Unfortunately my hugely long post explaining why classes are used was bumped back to the 6th page...
Again it comes back to the big "if" of magical development studios with unlimited time and money and talent and staff that "if" they could make a perfectly balanced skill based MMO then yes, nearly everyone would agree that it would be superior.
But no developer has perfectly balanced a class based MMO yet either. Really think you greatly increase the range of variables they have to balance they'll do any better?
History has proven they end up doing 10 times worse.
Also a lot of imbalance in games is perceived imbalance which a lot, if not MOST forum posters don't seem to ever realize.
Even in class free games there tends to be a "best" build and players will flock to that "type". So even players in class free games end up placing *themselves* into a class, lol.
But just because that's the way it been in a majority of skill based games doesn't mean that there aren't alternatives. It's smoke and mirrors, they say that class systems are easier becauseyou do the classic rock, paper, scissors trick but in truth it simply isn't that way in practice, but even if it were whats to stop it from being the same with skill systems.
In its most simplified form the fotm template simply needs to have a counter template. It only takes one person to work it out and he's walking around the server handing everyone else their ass on a plate. In time that template will have its counter, how long will it be before you have a wide varied mix of templates as counters. The nuences you can build into the skill system is so much deeper than anything for classes.
----- The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
Even in class free games there tends to be a "best" build and players will flock to that "type". So even players in class free games end up placing *themselves* into a class, lol.
Sad, but true.
The simple reason why is because it's not only ridiculously difficult to balance and keep interesting / dynamic, but also the majority of players don't want to have to think about that, they just want to find the best build online and play it. Sadly, the majority of players in MMOs atm do not favor critical thinking and strategically planning out your character, they prefer someone else doing the homework for them.
The few MMOs I've seen that go the 'classless' route, aren't really classless, but substitute them for something else. (i.e. Eve online's ships). So while you aren't technically forced into any specific class, there are usually general molds to guide you.
But just because that's the way it been in a majority of skill based games doesn't mean that there aren't alternatives. It's smoke and mirrors, they say that class systems are easier becauseyou do the classic rock, paper, scissors trick but in truth it simply isn't that way in practice, but even if it were whats to stop it from being the same with skill systems. In its most simplified form the fotm template simply needs to have a counter template. It only takes one person to work it out and he's walking around the server handing everyone else their ass on a plate. In time that template will have its counter, how long will it be before you have a wide varied mix of templates as counters. The nuences you can build into the skill system is so much deeper than anything for classes.
The reason it never really works out like that mrw0lf is that most imbalance problems come from bugs and exploits and broken mechanics.
The best developers in the world with the best testers and largest teams and most resources and most advanced technology will still pale in comparison to that piece of code being hammered on by thousands if not millions of players simultaneously.
Players are very talented at min/maxing and will always find the best combinations and they'll always find the bugs and exploits and broken mechanics that the developers miss.
You argue as if the game was perfect and flawless and bug free and there were no exploits and every skill was perfectly balanced against each other and itself.
No MMO ever has been that way, nor will it ever be.
Another thing that a class system has going for it is consistency of theme. For example a necromancer is supposed to be dark and spooky. In a class based system its a LOT easier to design every aspect of that character to be dark and spooky. Their look, gear, abilities, and playstyle can all be consistent with the theme. A druid may have a nearly identical spell, ability, or equipment, but it can be made consistent with the theme by making it leafy and natural.
Its an aesthetic benefit, but a benefit none the less.
Of course even this could be overcome by a proper classless system, but it just makes the classless system one step more complicated and possibly confusing. In Champions Online they will let the player change the color and emanation point for many abilities. That lets the player have some control over their theme.
But just because that's the way it been in a majority of skill based games doesn't mean that there aren't alternatives. It's smoke and mirrors, they say that class systems are easier becauseyou do the classic rock, paper, scissors trick but in truth it simply isn't that way in practice, but even if it were whats to stop it from being the same with skill systems. In its most simplified form the fotm template simply needs to have a counter template. It only takes one person to work it out and he's walking around the server handing everyone else their ass on a plate. In time that template will have its counter, how long will it be before you have a wide varied mix of templates as counters. The nuences you can build into the skill system is so much deeper than anything for classes.
The reason it never really works out like that mrw0lf is that most imbalance problems come from bugs and exploits and broken mechanics.
The best developers in the world with the best testers and largest teams and most resources and most advanced technology will still pale in comparison to that piece of code being hammered on by thousands if not millions of players simultaneously.
Players are very talented at min/maxing and will always find the best combinations and they'll always find the bugs and exploits and broken mechanics that the developers miss.
You argue as if the game was perfect and flawless and bug free and there were no exploits and every skill was perfectly balanced against each other and itself.
No MMO ever has been that way, nor will it ever be.
You are living in a dream world my friend.
I know you arn't declaring a preference for one or the other but boy are you going out of your way to excuse them. The argument makes no sence, so basically we dont have skill systems because people min/max and put themselves into classses anyway and the best way to combat this is to give everyone a class? Now we're at excusing them because there will be bugs resulting in players exploiting, sorry where's the class game with no exploits that gave another player an uninteded advantage over me, because in the past 10 years, I missed it. Plese at this point don't come back with the easier to control argument because that is clutching more than a bit.
I don't argue for perfection at all, I argue for vision (or dream as you like to put it) I personally prefer to play a game where when I create a game upon accepting its creation I don't instantly know exactly what my character will always be, every skills it can have, ever. I prefer a game where I grow my character and while there will be exploits I still have a choice at any point to change that character without creating a new one, it's consistant. I like the idea of my character being flexible in its build but always at its heart having been the same character I pressed 'accept' on the first day I started, I have a dream....
But your right no mmo ever was or will be perfect, but since that also applies to class system I fail to see what it matters in this instance.
if I were living in a dream world, the 6ft blonde with green eyes who I just employed would be sitting on my face right now rather than me here typing this. But I appreciate the reference
----- The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
Another thing that a class system has going for it is consistency of theme. For example a necromancer is supposed to be dark and spooky. In a class based system its a LOT easier to design every aspect of that character to be dark and spooky. Their look, gear, abilities, and playstyle can all be consistent with the theme. A druid may have a nearly identical spell, ability, or equipment, but it can be made consistent with the theme by making it leafy and natural. Its an aesthetic benefit, but a benefit none the less.
Of course even this could be overcome by a proper classless system, but it just makes the classless system one step more complicated and possibly confusing. In Champions Online they will let the player change the color and emanation point for many abilities. That lets the player have some control over their theme.
This is very true, very well said Aganazer.
Also there is the unavoidable fact that if given an abundance of options for customizing the appearance of their character, many people have the strange desire to either looking absolutely retarded or completely unoriginial.
Case in point: Chronicles of Spellborn. So hard to find someone who is NOT wearing the Ninja hood.
Sometimes, if you want to maintain a certain asthetic quality to your game, you have to limit what choices the player can make because a lot of people make really, really dumb choices.
I don't argue for perfection at all, I argue for vision (or dream as you like to put it) I personally prefer to play a game where when I create a game upon accepting its creation I don't instantly know exactly what my character will always be, what everyone skills it can have, ever. I prefer a game where I grow my character and while there will be exploits I still have a choice at any point to change that character without creating a new one. I like the idea of my character being flexible in its build but always at its heart having been the same character I pressed 'accept' on the first day I started, I have a dream.... But your right no mmo ever was or will be perfect, but since that also applies to skill system I fail to see what it matters in this instance. if I were living in a dream world, the 6ft blonde with green eyes who I just employed would be sitting on my face right now rather than me here typing this. But I appreciate the reference
And I agree completely.
The reality is this:
To answer the question posed by the OP, "Why are class free MMO's so rare?"
The answer is... well, everything good that has been said in this thread.
So all you did was say you agree with me that the game you envision, a game I'd love to play by the way, simply doesn't exist and chances are it never will because of the limitation of people, economics, and technology.
I don't argue for perfection at all, I argue for vision (or dream as you like to put it) I personally prefer to play a game where when I create a game upon accepting its creation I don't instantly know exactly what my character will always be, what everyone skills it can have, ever. I prefer a game where I grow my character and while there will be exploits I still have a choice at any point to change that character without creating a new one. I like the idea of my character being flexible in its build but always at its heart having been the same character I pressed 'accept' on the first day I started, I have a dream.... But your right no mmo ever was or will be perfect, but since that also applies to skill system I fail to see what it matters in this instance. if I were living in a dream world, the 6ft blonde with green eyes who I just employed would be sitting on my face right now rather than me here typing this. But I appreciate the reference
And I agree completely.
The reality is this:
To answer the question posed by the OP, "Why are class free MMO's so rare?"
The answer is... well, everything good that has been said in this thread.
So all you did was say you agree with me that the game you envision, a game I'd love to play by the way, simply doesn't exist and chances are it never will because of the limitation of people, economics, and technology.
Wait, what? where did that jump of logic come from. I originally stated that it was due to lazy devs, this has nothing to do with them not going to the gym btw. This is lazy thought processes and an inability that those with the means lack the will.
Your argument hinges around the inevitability that its a forgone conclusion for one reason or another that is related to no options and thats simply isn't the case imo. The classless game are less in number because devs choose it to be that way, it's easier for them in conception and application not because they don't have a choice.
btw I spelt inevitability without spell checking :proud:
----- The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
Also there is the unavoidable fact that if given an abundance of options for customizing the appearance of their character, many people have the strange desire to either looking absolutely retarded or completely unoriginial. Case in point: Chronicles of Spellborn. So hard to find someone who is NOT wearing the Ninja hood. Sometimes, if you want to maintain a certain asthetic quality to your game, you have to limit what choices the player can make because a lot of people make really, really dumb choices.
Hehe... Of course everyone looks a little retarded in Spellborn so it may not be the best example of aesthetic quality. I finally embraced the look and made a fat guy with no shirt and a big belly sticking out. I would deliberately pick my weapons based on their phalic resemblance. If you gotta look stupid you may as well look REALLY stupid.
Back on topic, the next two big MMOG's coming out are going to be classless. Both Champions Online and Fallen Earth are classless. Its interesting that Champions includes a lot of the ideas we've talked about for a classless system. So to answer the OP's question... Why are class free MMO's so rare? Soon they won't be all that rare.
Also there is the unavoidable fact that if given an abundance of options for customizing the appearance of their character, many people have the strange desire to either looking absolutely retarded or completely unoriginial. Case in point: Chronicles of Spellborn. So hard to find someone who is NOT wearing the Ninja hood. Sometimes, if you want to maintain a certain asthetic quality to your game, you have to limit what choices the player can make because a lot of people make really, really dumb choices.
Hehe... Of course everyone looks a little retarded in Spellborn so it may not be the best example of aesthetic quality. I finally embraced the look and made a fat guy with no shirt and a big belly sticking out. I would deliberately pick my weapons based on their phalic resemblance. If you gotta look stupid you may as well look REALLY stupid.
Back on topic, the next two big MMOG's coming out are going to be classless. Both Champions Online and Fallen Earth are classless. Its interesting that Champions includes a lot of the ideas we've talked about for a classless system. So to answer the OP's question... Why are class free MMO's so rare? Soon they won't be all that rare.
Thats actually a pretty good point, there are a fair few classless games coming out. Should have thought of that earlier, could have saved time.
----- The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
So, class or cookie-cutter template (basically what you said yourself). Any difference? One is the company puts restrictions on your choices, and the other is you're restricting yourself but you think you have choice.
The difference is exactly how Heerobya has been describing. In the former (class), the system will have superior balance and polish because the devs know the limitations of the system and can focus on making that known quantity shine. The latter is more complicated for the dev to work on which means that -- dev costs being equal -- it will be harder to balance and much harder to gaurantee a polished playstyle.
Are you referring to the superior class balance and polish in AOC, WAR, WOW or VG? Because in reading those forums it doesn't seem like most people feel that superior class balance has ever been achieved by any of them.
Not saying skill based games are much better, (though I do like how EVE handles it) but I do think its easier to create quest/raid PVE based content with a strong class based system.
Skill based systems are better for more open ended virtual worlds vs the themeparks.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I have yet to see a classless game where player characters fill more narrow roles creating a need for a lot of diversity.
As the other poster stated, EVE Online.
Take two identical characters in Eve and put one in the cheapest ship in the game and one in the most expensive. Who wins? Eve has NO balance what so ever and its not designed to. Its too radical. The roles in Eve also don't translate to traditional MMOs since Eve doesn't have any real PvE. Theres no such thing as cannon fodder class in any other MMO besides Eve=)
Whatever works in Eve doesn't translate to anything outside the game. Its stupid to bring it up.
I somewhat agree with this but would temper it by saying, at least so far we have not seen waht works in EVE translated to a game where you play a person on land, and not a spaceship in space.
Comments
Think of it like this: If you have a bowl of ice cream and it is chocolate ice cream, it will taste like chocolate ice cream. If you have a bowl of chocolate and vanilla but you keep them seperate, then you can taste chocolate and you can taste vanilla. But if you mix chcolate with all 36 flavors, it will all taste the same and not be very appatising.
I used to think that classes were restrictive and lame.
Then I realised that every game had classes (even skill-based games) as if they weren't built into the core concept of the game, the players themselves defined them. Min-maxing always happens and cookie-cutter builds emerge to which the difficulty of new content is frequently scaled.
Given the choice, I would choose to allow the game developers (rather than the players) to control balance.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Why are class free MMOs so rare?
Because the majority of today's MMO community prefers Class systems.
Pretty simple, skillbased Open ended systems are niche.
Playing: EvE, Ryzom
Well said heerobya. I agree completely with everything except the quoted part. You just explained how to make a balanced classless system. Even though no one has had the balls to tacle this problem in a traditional MMOG setting, I do think it can be done and done extremely well.
Almost like the guy that said the developers are lazy, I think most of them just haven't been willing to take the risk. Ideas are a dime a dozen. I have faith that the developers know what to do, they just haven't been willing to take a risk and do it.
I'm sure we'll see it done right eventually. Probably not in a mainstream game, but we'll see it. Talking about it makes me realize how much untapped potential there is in the MMOG market.
I see where you're coming from but, thats a horrible example. People who buy prebuilt computers really have no idea what they are doing or just starting out with computers. Anyone who is somewhat tech savy will probably build their own computer. Its much cheaper and better.
Look at the comments from Muzyka there, think about it, this guy while not being anywhere near actually designing the game does have the final say and is responsible for giving direction and setting tone. Do you think that he's unbias? You think even if he had some lead designer come to him and tell him about the new classless system, he's going to look at it with an open mind? Of course not, he knows the safest route to make money, thats why he has his job, and I'm sitting here explaining why I want his job.
Tbf his comment isn't just about a classless design (at least I hope not) he's also talking about a more open, sandbox design, the 2 are not the same. But even then some of his comments lack understanding (like many of the earlier posts). In truth we havn't seen a truely well done skill based game, max/min of characters shouldn't mean anything if its done well. But it displays perfectly my point about devs mind sets, they think about creating a classless game and immediately look to copy what has already been done.
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The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
That actually is a great summation of what it all really boils down to. Classes, or even basic templates to build from, are tried and true methods of letting players head down the path of cool while avoiding or at least minimizing the chance of suck.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Try creating a complicated game sometime. You'll see that even the best thought out systems just don't work out the way you envisioned them half the time.
There's a poster on these boards with a great quote in his sig, something about it not being my job to tell them how to build a game that's what they get paid for.
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The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
Any game where the challenge comes from increasingly large numbers due to levels and gear and more powerful abilities with increasing damage numbers you are going to have classes or cookie-cutter builds due to min/maxing the numbers.
Any game where you have defined party roles that follow an archetype scheme (tank/heal/dps) you are going to have classes or cookie-cutter builds due to min/maxing the numbers.
In order to do a classless game you'd have to make a game where the challenge comes from increasingly difficult content not from numbers on a spreadsheet getting larger and larger and larger.
One of the basic tenants of RPG's from the days of Pen and Paper to the single player games so beloved on consoles and now the most popular MMOs is that your character becomes more powerful as you progress.
The most commonly accepted method to do this is by increasing the numbers. You have 1,000 health now instead of 100 and you deal 500 damage with your Fireball instead of 50.
Throw in the fact that RPG's have also been largely focused on getting new magical treasures your further compound the scaling issue.
To remove all of this, to create a game where you don't need classes and defined roles and uber loots you'd have to focus your game on the other main component of RPG's that people have loved since the days of Pen and Paper.
The story.
Character advancement and story are the basic principles behind nearly every RPG game ever made, including MMORPGs. It's like the foundation.
Take away the story part and you are left with a hallow game only about phat loots and big numbers.
Take away the advancement part and you are only left with the story, but how do you tell millions of different players a story and not make it the same for everyone?
One option is to let players make their own stories, but the problem with this is that the vast majority (as has been proven) would rather be entertained and have a story unfold before them. This is why we play many games and watch TV, watch movies, read books... cause most of us really aren't that creative lol. We like to be entertained.
This is kind of "higher thought" on the class versus skill debate but it's definitely relevant.
Do you want players to play a role in the story you are telling or do you want players to make their own stories and forge their own path? Some combination or hybrid of the two?
The predominant answer has been proven to be the first. This is why you have more linear, story focused, "theme park" MMOs with classes that have defined roles.
This isn't a bad thing by it's very nature, it's actually quite popular. But there are a group of people who don't want that, they want to forge their own stories and create their own unique role.
Unfortunately, that segment of the population is not large enough to warrant the risk of investing millions of dollars into a product only to have it met with very limited acceptance and profitability.
I can't quite understand why skill based, classless(although class based skill systems are great too) systems are not more prominent in MMOs but they should be. They are far superior to class/level based systems in almost every way conceivable. The majority of arguments against skill systems are either over-exaggerated, prominent in class systems too, or are simply a flaw in one or two implementations.'
The claim that "skill systems are really hard to balance" is a joke as I have yet to see a class based game that is remotely balanced. WoW, WAR, AoC, all you see is "X class is OP nerf them!" or "X class sucks buff us". Part of my reason for quitting WoW was because the classes/specs were so unbalanced in arenas, and that was the primary form of PvP they were pushing. On the contrary, I rarely see balance issues in Eve, and Guild Wars has very balanced combat.
"In skill based systems, everyone min/maxes so they all have the same skills anyway", which isn't necessarily true, but is completely true of every class based game. You can guarenteed that every class in a class based game is going to have pretty much the same skills as everyone else in their class. Sure, UO had a flaw in it's design, and there were a lot of tank mages, but again that is a flaw in a specific system, not the idea as a whole. You are going to get people that min/max in EVERY game, reguardless of progression system(just go on a level 20-40ish character in WoW and I guarentee the majority of those characters you see around you will be one or two particular classes deemed "OP" at the time). People always flock to what is over powered. Does that mean everyone does? No chance. Sure, in SWG there were a lot of defense stackers. I never had a defensive build and I did just fine. In Guild Wars, you can get 20 different people in your AB and odds are not one of them has the exact same skills as anyone else.
How are skill systems better? Well, there is plethora of reasons:
You get to create your very own class! Customize your character exactly the way you want it, not how the developer decides you should play it. If you want to play a very specific, almost pre-made archtype, then you have the option to do so. Want to play something completely abnormal and whacky? You get that option too. You get the OPTION, and you aren't forced to do anything.
In class based games, often the only way to try a new class is to create a new character and regrind. In skill based games, you usually can "drop" skill and learn different ones instead. You are no longer fully dependent on the devs to balance your character, and decide how good your character is. If your character has a sever lacking in a certain area, it is easy to change it and get better.
Skill based games add a lot more variety. In a class based game you see "Oh a priest", then maybe have to figure out if they are damage or healing specced, and then you know exactly what they can and can't do, what their weakness is, etc. A skill based game you say " Oh a guy", and have absolutely no idea what their skills are, what their strengths and weaknesses are, it is all a mystery.
Freedom freedom freedom. Long live the dabbler.
I could go on and on and on.
So why aren't skill systems more prominent?
My guess it is developers afriad to deviate from "the norm". Developers chasing after the WoW crowd. The average person too afraid to try and give something new a chance. I'm sure there are many reasons. None of them justify the current situations in MMOs.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
Even in class free games there tends to be a "best" build and players will flock to that "type".
So even players in class free games end up placing *themselves* into a class, lol.
Agreed. Ya just can't argue with history.
Unfortunately my hugely long post explaining why classes are used was bumped back to the 6th page...
Again it comes back to the big "if" of magical development studios with unlimited time and money and talent and staff that "if" they could make a perfectly balanced skill based MMO then yes, nearly everyone would agree that it would be superior.
But no developer has perfectly balanced a class based MMO yet either. Really think you greatly increase the range of variables they have to balance they'll do any better?
History has proven they end up doing 10 times worse.
Also a lot of imbalance in games is perceived imbalance which a lot, if not MOST forum posters don't seem to ever realize.
But just because that's the way it been in a majority of skill based games doesn't mean that there aren't alternatives. It's smoke and mirrors, they say that class systems are easier becauseyou do the classic rock, paper, scissors trick but in truth it simply isn't that way in practice, but even if it were whats to stop it from being the same with skill systems.
In its most simplified form the fotm template simply needs to have a counter template. It only takes one person to work it out and he's walking around the server handing everyone else their ass on a plate. In time that template will have its counter, how long will it be before you have a wide varied mix of templates as counters. The nuences you can build into the skill system is so much deeper than anything for classes.
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The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
Sad, but true.
The simple reason why is because it's not only ridiculously difficult to balance and keep interesting / dynamic, but also the majority of players don't want to have to think about that, they just want to find the best build online and play it. Sadly, the majority of players in MMOs atm do not favor critical thinking and strategically planning out your character, they prefer someone else doing the homework for them.
The few MMOs I've seen that go the 'classless' route, aren't really classless, but substitute them for something else. (i.e. Eve online's ships). So while you aren't technically forced into any specific class, there are usually general molds to guide you.
The reason it never really works out like that mrw0lf is that most imbalance problems come from bugs and exploits and broken mechanics.
The best developers in the world with the best testers and largest teams and most resources and most advanced technology will still pale in comparison to that piece of code being hammered on by thousands if not millions of players simultaneously.
Players are very talented at min/maxing and will always find the best combinations and they'll always find the bugs and exploits and broken mechanics that the developers miss.
You argue as if the game was perfect and flawless and bug free and there were no exploits and every skill was perfectly balanced against each other and itself.
No MMO ever has been that way, nor will it ever be.
You are living in a dream world my friend.
Another thing that a class system has going for it is consistency of theme. For example a necromancer is supposed to be dark and spooky. In a class based system its a LOT easier to design every aspect of that character to be dark and spooky. Their look, gear, abilities, and playstyle can all be consistent with the theme. A druid may have a nearly identical spell, ability, or equipment, but it can be made consistent with the theme by making it leafy and natural.
Its an aesthetic benefit, but a benefit none the less.
Of course even this could be overcome by a proper classless system, but it just makes the classless system one step more complicated and possibly confusing. In Champions Online they will let the player change the color and emanation point for many abilities. That lets the player have some control over their theme.
The reason it never really works out like that mrw0lf is that most imbalance problems come from bugs and exploits and broken mechanics.
The best developers in the world with the best testers and largest teams and most resources and most advanced technology will still pale in comparison to that piece of code being hammered on by thousands if not millions of players simultaneously.
Players are very talented at min/maxing and will always find the best combinations and they'll always find the bugs and exploits and broken mechanics that the developers miss.
You argue as if the game was perfect and flawless and bug free and there were no exploits and every skill was perfectly balanced against each other and itself.
No MMO ever has been that way, nor will it ever be.
You are living in a dream world my friend.
I know you arn't declaring a preference for one or the other but boy are you going out of your way to excuse them. The argument makes no sence, so basically we dont have skill systems because people min/max and put themselves into classses anyway and the best way to combat this is to give everyone a class? Now we're at excusing them because there will be bugs resulting in players exploiting, sorry where's the class game with no exploits that gave another player an uninteded advantage over me, because in the past 10 years, I missed it. Plese at this point don't come back with the easier to control argument because that is clutching more than a bit.
I don't argue for perfection at all, I argue for vision (or dream as you like to put it) I personally prefer to play a game where when I create a game upon accepting its creation I don't instantly know exactly what my character will always be, every skills it can have, ever. I prefer a game where I grow my character and while there will be exploits I still have a choice at any point to change that character without creating a new one, it's consistant. I like the idea of my character being flexible in its build but always at its heart having been the same character I pressed 'accept' on the first day I started, I have a dream....
But your right no mmo ever was or will be perfect, but since that also applies to class system I fail to see what it matters in this instance.
if I were living in a dream world, the 6ft blonde with green eyes who I just employed would be sitting on my face right now rather than me here typing this. But I appreciate the reference
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The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
This is very true, very well said Aganazer.
Also there is the unavoidable fact that if given an abundance of options for customizing the appearance of their character, many people have the strange desire to either looking absolutely retarded or completely unoriginial.
Case in point: Chronicles of Spellborn. So hard to find someone who is NOT wearing the Ninja hood.
Sometimes, if you want to maintain a certain asthetic quality to your game, you have to limit what choices the player can make because a lot of people make really, really dumb choices.
And I agree completely.
The reality is this:
To answer the question posed by the OP, "Why are class free MMO's so rare?"
The answer is... well, everything good that has been said in this thread.
So all you did was say you agree with me that the game you envision, a game I'd love to play by the way, simply doesn't exist and chances are it never will because of the limitation of people, economics, and technology.
And I agree completely.
The reality is this:
To answer the question posed by the OP, "Why are class free MMO's so rare?"
The answer is... well, everything good that has been said in this thread.
So all you did was say you agree with me that the game you envision, a game I'd love to play by the way, simply doesn't exist and chances are it never will because of the limitation of people, economics, and technology.
Wait, what? where did that jump of logic come from. I originally stated that it was due to lazy devs, this has nothing to do with them not going to the gym btw. This is lazy thought processes and an inability that those with the means lack the will.
Your argument hinges around the inevitability that its a forgone conclusion for one reason or another that is related to no options and thats simply isn't the case imo. The classless game are less in number because devs choose it to be that way, it's easier for them in conception and application not because they don't have a choice.
btw I spelt inevitability without spell checking :proud:
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The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
Hehe... Of course everyone looks a little retarded in Spellborn so it may not be the best example of aesthetic quality. I finally embraced the look and made a fat guy with no shirt and a big belly sticking out. I would deliberately pick my weapons based on their phalic resemblance. If you gotta look stupid you may as well look REALLY stupid.
Back on topic, the next two big MMOG's coming out are going to be classless. Both Champions Online and Fallen Earth are classless. Its interesting that Champions includes a lot of the ideas we've talked about for a classless system. So to answer the OP's question... Why are class free MMO's so rare? Soon they won't be all that rare.
Hehe... Of course everyone looks a little retarded in Spellborn so it may not be the best example of aesthetic quality. I finally embraced the look and made a fat guy with no shirt and a big belly sticking out. I would deliberately pick my weapons based on their phalic resemblance. If you gotta look stupid you may as well look REALLY stupid.
Back on topic, the next two big MMOG's coming out are going to be classless. Both Champions Online and Fallen Earth are classless. Its interesting that Champions includes a lot of the ideas we've talked about for a classless system. So to answer the OP's question... Why are class free MMO's so rare? Soon they won't be all that rare.
Thats actually a pretty good point, there are a fair few classless games coming out. Should have thought of that earlier, could have saved time.
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The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
The difference is exactly how Heerobya has been describing. In the former (class), the system will have superior balance and polish because the devs know the limitations of the system and can focus on making that known quantity shine. The latter is more complicated for the dev to work on which means that -- dev costs being equal -- it will be harder to balance and much harder to gaurantee a polished playstyle.
Are you referring to the superior class balance and polish in AOC, WAR, WOW or VG? Because in reading those forums it doesn't seem like most people feel that superior class balance has ever been achieved by any of them.
Not saying skill based games are much better, (though I do like how EVE handles it) but I do think its easier to create quest/raid PVE based content with a strong class based system.
Skill based systems are better for more open ended virtual worlds vs the themeparks.
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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I would also "wait and see" before I went out of my way to call any new game "classless".
I suspect you will find that they have a lot of elements which make them more like "class-based" games than not.
As the other poster stated, EVE Online.
Take two identical characters in Eve and put one in the cheapest ship in the game and one in the most expensive. Who wins? Eve has NO balance what so ever and its not designed to. Its too radical. The roles in Eve also don't translate to traditional MMOs since Eve doesn't have any real PvE. Theres no such thing as cannon fodder class in any other MMO besides Eve=)
Whatever works in Eve doesn't translate to anything outside the game. Its stupid to bring it up.
I somewhat agree with this but would temper it by saying, at least so far we have not seen waht works in EVE translated to a game where you play a person on land, and not a spaceship in space.