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What is wrong with our community?
alderdale
Member Posts: 301
So many people have completely forgotten how to enjoy an MMO for what it offers and instead are on a mission to only focus on what it doesn't give them from the minute they play it. Or fall in love for 2 weeks before they start the bashing. These people who are incapable of mustering the money, resources or talent to even scratch the surface of what developers have accomplished sit back and judge the people who are actually contributing to this industry. It just seems like there is a growing trend to poision every game that comes along these days, with people making it part of their daily agenda. Shower check, pay bills check, log into mmorpg bash <insert MMO game here> check. Maybe some of these people need a break from gaming to get a change of perspective.
Comments
When MMORPGs made their initial run from 1998 through 2003, or even early 2004, home computer costs needed to run the games with good ability were out of reach of many households, especially for teenager / children evening dominated use. The people that played those games through that stretch were largely adult or late teen users that treated the games like a hobby, and spoke mostly like hobby enthusiasts.
Late 2004 on, yes, World of Warcraft opened the doors of a highly successful game based on a game engine that even low-mid tech systems could run. Computer component prices steadily dropped, more teens could get their own machines, DSL became more affordable and more useful for a household to get, etc. Upshot, the gamer / hobby enthusiast type of player dropped into the minority by a large margin.
If you want a better community and for people to post with useful insights with respect (things that weren't all *that* rare to find on the EQ and DAoC boards, and especially launch City of Heroes)... You'll have to go back in time. Those days are long gone.
Maybe some people need to get some perspective and realize that companies only offer crap.
This community is like any other online. A bunch of people who sometimes disagree. Disagreements then fill up the forums, by the nature of online discussion:
For what it's worth, MMORPG.com's forums are at least filled with a higher than normal amount of intelligent posters. But even the most intellectual of forums obey the two rules above, and therefore are filled with conflicting opinions.
Beyond that, discussion of mistakes and brainstorming their solutions is the most interesting conversation to be had here. See the Diablo 3 thread, where (despite my considering Diablo 2 one of the greatest games ever) I point out a number of failings in Diablo 2's game design that I hope to see alleviated in the sequel.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I love when people throw out post counts as some sort of elitism, makes me laugh every time, lol.... see?
Z
http://www.TheIronZ.com
The gentleman (and I use that term loosely) from Texas seconds this motion.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
Well after being majorly disappointed (as I'm being nice using the word disappointed) from Age of Conan and Warhammer Online in 2008 I think you would be skeptical about new mmos as well. Heck, I can go back even further and mention how LOTRO , a wonderul ip, being turned into just an average game at best by Turbine.
You see we all heard they hype from these guys and were told " oh this is going to be tremendous, we have such a great IP, the combat will be revolutionary, RVR is epic" Lotro is average at best and the only reason it gets more kudos compared to AOC and WAR is because it was less buggy. It is a crime that Turbine delivered us a boring version of LOTR.
Warhammer was hyped so much from Jeff Hickman and Paul Barnett you would think they was running for president. They danced and joked on their videos telling us how great WAR was going to be , how RVR was going to be awesome, how we have such a glorious ip but yet they managed to gives us a major stinker that still has many issues.
Age of Conan, to sum this up Gaute Godager no longer works for Funcom, That is how bad the release was and people do not forgive when you give a bad first impression. I will give Funcom atleast major kudos for fixing alot of issues and making it better than WAR but still, many will not come back to subscribe because there are better mmos coming our way.
It isn't the gamer's fault that alot of these games are buggy, it isn't the gamer's fault that games do not deliver the fun factor, it isn't the gamer's fault that they charge a monthly fee knowing their game isn't finished. What I do blame gamer's for is paying for broken mmos. Until they stop and show the devs who really controls the mmo market then you will constantly have bad apples like I mentioned above.
I think that more than anything, you should be asking yourself: What is wrong with MMORPG developers?
Why do they continue to hype up and release sub par WoW-clones? Why are they so afraid of trying something new, or something different? Instead, they blindly continue to release WoW clones falsely believing that because 11 million people play WoW, they will jump ship to another game if it's just like WoW. Newsflash! They will not. The 11 million WoW players play WoW because they like WoW. They don't play WoW as a substitute, while waiting for WoW-Clone X to be released.
If you really want to entice those 11 million to at least try your game, give them something different, something that doesn't remind them of WoW and their 7 level 80's and their weekly Naxx raids. Think about it, why would they leave all of their accomplishments behind and go over to another game if the game is, very often, nothing more than a not-so-good WoW?
Now that I'm done with my rant, I have a feeling that the community as a whole is jaded by recent releases. With the exception of the IP and art style, they are all essentially very similar to WoW or EQ. And, personally, that is begining to annoy the crap out of me and probably other people too.
Take a look at the mmos themselves , games full of bots , mobs bashing if you want a "beautifull" game . Eve is ok but got to like spaceships .
They delivered LOTR.
Which is to say: LOTR is a tame (aka boring) universe.
What's the most impressive thing Gandalf tosses around? A few lens flares. Apart from that he's an accomplished melee fighter in a few scenes.
So a gandalf-inspired Lore Master class inevitably can't do much -- particularly if they want to keep Gandalf as an impressive hero. And while I'm playing LOTRO and generally enjoying it so far, including the clever way my Lore Master uses lore rather than outright magic to combat his foes, tossing ignited black powder in a mob's face will never be as exciting as snapping my fingers to cause him to instantly combust, or causing a volcanic eruption centered on my location (which are things my WAR Bright Wizard could do.)
So they delivered LOTR, and I don't really fault them for being strongly constrained by the LOTR universe. For what it's worth I think they've pushed the universe about as far as they can, considering my Lore Master tosses ignited black powder in mobs' face every fight -- which is a lot more than Gandalf did.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I think that more than anything, you should be asking yourself: What is wrong with MMORPG developers?
Why do they continue to hype up and release sub par WoW-clones? Why are they so afraid of trying something new, or something different? Instead, they blindly continue to release WoW clones falsely believing that because 11 million people play WoW, they will jump ship to another game if it's just like WoW. Newsflash! They will not. The 11 million WoW players play WoW because they like WoW. They don't play WoW as a substitute, while waiting for WoW-Clone X to be released.
If you really want to entice those 11 million to at least try your game, give them something different, something that doesn't remind them of WoW and their 7 level 80's and their weekly Naxx raids. Think about it, why would they leave all of their accomplishments behind and go over to another game if the game is, very often, nothing more than a not-so-good WoW?
Now that I'm done with my rant, I have a feeling that the community as a whole is jaded by recent releases. With the exception of the IP and art style, they are all essentially very similar to WoW or EQ. And, personally, that is begining to annoy the crap out of me and probably other people too.
Why are they so afraid of trying something new, or something different?
Because of this never-ending cycle. I see people saying "I want a game with A, B, C, and D", then a game with "A" is released. Are most of these people happy? No. They say, "Where is B, C, and D? It's all or nothing". Then, the game with "A" fails, and the devs decide it must be because no one wants anything new. Of course, sometimes the devs fail, make a bad game with "A" in it, and decide the same thing. Almost(?) no one is going to take a chance on a game with A-D because of this, they'll pick one of those at most.
UO was revolutionary in it's way, being the first(?) MMORPG to do so well. EQ and AC were revolutionary mostly due to the switch to 3d, IMO. Honestly, I've not noticed any real revolution since the change to 3d. My thought: Don't expect a revolution, expect evolution. Maybe I'll be proven wrong...
One more thing: What can I lose if the devs take a big chance? Nothing for open betas/trials, maybe the money for a box with the game. What can they lose? They can go out of business and lose their jobs. So, I think they think having a job is more important to them, than we are.
The problem is that they don't realize that they are the ones ruining MMO's.
I think that more than anything, you should be asking yourself: What is wrong with MMORPG developers?
Why do they continue to hype up and release sub par WoW-clones? Why are they so afraid of trying something new, or something different? Instead, they blindly continue to release WoW clones falsely believing that because 11 million people play WoW, they will jump ship to another game if it's just like WoW. Newsflash! They will not. The 11 million WoW players play WoW because they like WoW. They don't play WoW as a substitute, while waiting for WoW-Clone X to be released.
If you really want to entice those 11 million to at least try your game, give them something different, something that doesn't remind them of WoW and their 7 level 80's and their weekly Naxx raids. Think about it, why would they leave all of their accomplishments behind and go over to another game if the game is, very often, nothing more than a not-so-good WoW?
Now that I'm done with my rant, I have a feeling that the community as a whole is jaded by recent releases. With the exception of the IP and art style, they are all essentially very similar to WoW or EQ. And, personally, that is begining to annoy the crap out of me and probably other people too.
Why are they so afraid of trying something new, or something different?
Because of this never-ending cycle. I see people saying "I want a game with A, B, C, and D", then a game with "A" is released. Are most of these people happy? No. They say, "Where is B, C, and D? It's all or nothing". Then, the game with "A" fails, and the devs decide it must be because no one wants anything new. Of course, sometimes the devs fail, make a bad game with "A" in it, and decide the same thing. Almost(?) no one is going to take a chance on a game with A-D because of this, they'll pick one of those at most.
UO was revolutionary in it's way, being the first(?) MMORPG to do so well. EQ and AC were revolutionary mostly due to the switch to 3d, IMO. Honestly, I've not noticed any real revolution since the change to 3d. My thought: Don't expect a revolution, expect evolution. Maybe I'll be proven wrong...
One more thing: What can I lose if the devs take a big chance? Nothing for open betas/trials, maybe the money for a box with the game. What can they lose? They can go out of business and lose their jobs. So, I think they think having a job is more important to them, than we are.
Very often what happens is that a game that tries something new, fails because the old and outdated concepts included with the new, outweigh anything new added to the game. Take any new MMO that was recently released. Most of them are not doing too well not because of any new features but mostly because even the new features are not enough to offset the old present in the games.
While, I do not lose a lot by purchasing a crappy game, the problem I do have is that all these great IPs are being ruined. Conan, Warhammer, Star Wars (not The Old Republic--not enough info to base an educated opinion), Stargate, Star Trek, etc.
Bend over a bit farther and you can hire yourself out as a contortionist!
The one and only.
Really, that's my point. I've played console and PC games my whole life. It seems to me that no game has done more than "baby steps" in changing it's genre. Except with the change to 3D, when people wanted to "start over". A good example is going from Super Mario World to Super Mario 64. No real innovation in SMW, just "get to the end before time runs out". SM64 was almost like having small "sandbox" levels, with much more freedom. Then everyone cloned it over and over, including Nintendo. The biggest innovation being playing it with a Wii-mote. Which is similar to MMOs, except we didn't even get a figurative Wii-mote.
I'll come clean, give me a new world with new places to explore and I'm happy in an MMO (ok, throw out buggy games, F2P, etc., but in general...). Throw in a guild, that's even better. However, choice is always better from a gamer POV (yes, that's an opinion). I'm up for trying something new in MMOs. I just don't see change beyond baby steps happening soon.
I feel like the mmo community has grown too fast for its own good.
"Freedom is just another name for nothing left to lose" - Janis Joplin
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I'm probably going to get flamed for this line of thinking but here goes:
Yes the companies hype their games, its marketing, hopefully it will make them money. Every company does this; pepsi puts out a commercial for a new soft drink and you think "hmmm wonder if it's any good..." you go out and buy it and it tastes awful! The worst thing you do is tell your friends who are picking some up not to bother. With games it is different to a point, and I acknowledge that but not drastically different. You don't say that pepsi is a crap company for putting out a soda that taste terrible to you, but gaming companies deal with this constantly. Again I recognize its not a perfect metaphor but I think you can see what I am trying to say.
Sometimes I feel like we the consumers of MMO's ask for the hype, we get it, foam at the mouth, and then are dissapointed when the game isn't "what we expected." If you remember the posts on MMORPG.com after AoC came out, there were a lot of "not what I expected" posts and yes some people only complained about the bugs.
WoW opening up the market share is a good thing overall I think, (I am not saying that WoW is good, it just brought a lot of fresh blood into the market) but the one bad thing it has certainly done is pushed companies to release info about a new game entirely too early. A good example of this right now is Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic online. Just look at the forums and the discussions about what is going to be in the game or not. A company releasing info on a game too early will encourage this and get people dreaming up what a title is going to be only to be dissapointed when it is nothing like it. If you go to website for this game there is very little information about what this game will be like. You have some info on some "jobs" but no real sense of what the game is going to be like and hence the posts I see all the time about how it's going to be a co-op rpg and not an mmo. (I kinda thought that was what an mmo is but perhaps I play differently than others) Perhaps they are further along in development of this game than I realize...wouldn't be a first...but from their own website it just feels like there are some major gaps there.
Yes the developers are at fault, but I think we, the gamers are too. Besides how much pressure is the developer getting from the publisher, who makes money off the box sales not really the monthly fee (or least this is what I have been told, I could be totally off here, please feel free to correct this info if you know better) to push the hype? These are things I wonder. How much of it comes from us begging for more info that stuff is released only to find out oops changing that and this because it just doesn't work. Suddenly something that was selling the game for you is gone and your left thinking "What tha? What just happened here?" Taking your time and developing your game until its pretty close to launch before announcing it doesn't bother me. We are half way through 2009 and SE just released info on a new game due out next year (so at most a year and half, unless it gets bumped back which happens, but less likely since it's been in development for so long before annoucement, 5 years to be exact). Some of us knew they were working on a new game...but didn't know what or when. This is a better approach imho. Still not a lot of info on it but some will trickle out slowly but surely, the bulk of it won't until the game is about to be released so that players will not be, or at least less likely to be, dissapointed. They weren't promised something only to see it removed. I will be very surprised is SE deviates from this.
I do think that forums will be more "negative" in tone because of the fact that if you agree you aren't likely to post much if at all. So naturally the posts in a thread seem to disagree and you get a back and forth. This isn't necessarly a bad thing as discussion can lead to some pretty interesting discoveries. You just have to ignore the people who make statements like "crap game" and thats it, they don't give you any reason why they didn't like it or anything useful to the conversation. These types of people exists in every community both online and in the real world. You must learn to acknowledge that they have not evolved and your life gets much easier. (Learn to laugh at some of the posts too :P)
I'm sure I will get some flames but not worried about it, we are all free to think differently.
Currently Playing: FFXIV:ARR
Looking Forward to: Wildstar
The main issue is that many mmo gamers are getting older and as all people who get older they see their past as a glorified wonderful thing and feel most things today aren't as good as they used to be. This is something that happens to every generation for as long as there have been humans and the generation that have grown up never ever realize that they are just like the old idiots that said silly things to them while they were young.
Realistically if you released games like DaoC or EQ today they would be laughed at compared to the games there is comming out today even if they had modern graphics. Grind grind grind, bad interface, little content, forced grouping, spawn camping for hours and hours, getting into list for farm groups and so on.
People had fun still and it was mostly because they were younger than they are today. We all change when we get older but we rarely percieve how we change so we blame everything around us for that change instead of seeing that its really ourselves that have changed.
For example your tolerance towards other peoples behavior goes down as you age, when you are young you just accept and bond with others, that stops as you mature and you get careful about making contact with strangers, so you blame the game for making too much for soloers and have too little community content while you yourself is a part of the fragmentation process.
The games comming out today are often far better made and offers far more content than the classics did, but the customers are not the same anymore. The young ones just throw themselves at them but the olders (and this process already start in the late 20's) feel alienated and feel that this isn't as good as it was when they were young.
Yes there are games that come out in a bad state like AoC, but mostly games are better at release now than back in the "golden" days.
Try to look inside yourself and remember who you were and then you will hopefully realize its _you_ who have changed more than the games.
"You are the hero our legends have foretold will save our tribe, therefore please go kill 10 pigs."
You are using quite a lot of broad brush strokes for "older" gamers. I am sure that there are people out there that fall into these catagories but I must say I have met fewer of the type you describe than I have the opposite. I currently play in an all adult guild, most of them in their 30's and 40's, and we all enjoy playing the game together. We include new people all the time and have forged great friendships in what many here would say is a solo game.
To say that you lose patience...I dunno, I had no patience when I was 16, 18, 20. My patience and tolerance are much better now at 25. I would argue that patience grows as you age. Though once again there may be some who fit in your rather broad view (its big enough to include a lot).
I would be curious to know the ages of those who post things like "this game is B.S." with no explanation as to why. I see a lot of these posts before the games even release. I'm sure some are "older" but I bet some are "younger"
I agree that games should be changing and bringing in new and fresh ideas, but to say the mmo community is just a bunch of old people whining about the glory days is not the problem. There maybe some out there doing this, not going to argue that, just saying that this isn't the core problem with the mmo community.
Currently Playing: FFXIV:ARR
Looking Forward to: Wildstar
Most people that like the genre just shut up and play the games they like and don't waste their time on forums, the ones that are not pleased by how things are going stay on forums and bitch and argue hoping that someday someone will see their posts and "realise" the problems and make a game that suits them.
There will always bee people that argue about games, sometimes criticism can be creative, but the is a thin line that often is crossed by most people and they don't see it.
just my 2 cent.
__________________________________
Remember the good old days when devs made games just for the sake of making a great game?
They are forever gone now all they care is about how much they can earn from them, if they can't make millions they won't make that game.
REMEMBER THE OLD DAYS AND REGRET THEY HAVE PASSED.
/agree
Think of it that PCs didnt drop in price we would still have a overall good community instead we got WOW and other crappy MMO and a community full of trash with the GIMME GIMME fever.
Or some other need to realize that they are incapable of having fun.
"Freedom is just another name for nothing left to lose" - Janis Joplin
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