I think the prices are steep...in both Lotro and WOW...AoC less so...but still. That's just the way it is. Buyers pay the money...so sellers keep raising to the point they stop paying...then shave it down a bit. Maximizing profits..or if it is a crafted item ...made from elements that are already overpriced...then you end up charging a ridiculous price just to break even. If you're lucky.
Sure wish it was a little more reasonable...those WOW purple enchants...like mongoose enchants on a pair of daggers...can cost 400-900 gold apiece depending on the day and seller. Wild. On the other hand...these sellers are putting all the farming effort towards attaining the reagents and recipe drops..or they themselves are forking out a lot of virtual dough. Saving you alot of grinding/time..except for gold grinding..which can be done alot easier now-a-days...so, in a way, they are entitled. I mostly solo and have never done a true raid...instances yes....but no major raids. So..I think of it more as a service fee or lazy tax. Again..that's the way it is...and I just try not to let it spoil the game. Just have fun.
Actually...I have done raid instances at lower levels...by myself...as far as I can go. Partially so I can see the content...and partially as a fun, albeit not too challenging way to farm decent BOE for my alts to use or disenchant and for other materials for professions, cloth for bandages, currency..etc...usually for my alts.
Learn about inflation and basic economics, and then apply that knowledge with the variable that in a MMOG money is artificially manufactured from thin air (via spawns) and you will understand the economics of any MMOG better...including EVE. Inflation in these games is absolutely guaranteed.
Thus why I state that the developers need to control the flow of money in their games, not the players!
EVE full of RMT going on with gold farmers, or isk farmers in this case. It's all about the ISK and RMT for Corps and rich players within corps. CCP profits most with RMT as they do it behind the scenes to get more money for the company.
For the record... yes there is a bot. Yes it is advanced. No, most people don't use it. Yes, gold farmers will bot to make money.
The real killer was the recently fixed base exploit. That ran for several months, possibly since the game went live. Several whole guilds were banned for it, which in turn wiped all their isk. However the full effect of wiping out isk like that normally takes 2-3 months. If you want to see a level playing field, you will have to wait till then.
Want money, without botting/exploiting? It's possible... it's boring... and people do it everyday. It's called farming.
here's something I did in WoW that shows a player driven economy working. The Northrend Darkmoon Faire Card(more specifically the nobles cards) were a hot commodity when most people were just hitting 80 so I farmed enough mats to make 2-3 cards and BLAM I got 2 nobles card so i check the AH the cheapest nobles card I had was in the AH for the INSANE price of 1800g I took this as my opportunity to exploit the Botters and I undercut them to the point where the Same card that cost 1800g was now being sold for only 200-300g. On top of making nearly 15,000 gold in only one night, I boosted the economy by buying all the herbs out of the AH and making cards, and guess what the Botter were forced to lower their prices to make any money and the herbs I had bought we nearly replinished the next day ready for me to do it again.
There are times when one must ask themselves is it my passion that truly frightens you? Or your own?
I think that if you don't wanna go farm the item yourself you kind of deserve to get ripped off in a player run economy. Like for WoW for example I need some trade skill items , now I have the skills necessary to go farm the items I want all by myself....but I am lazy and instead choose to buy the items from the auction from the guy that either Botted and got them or perhaps the player that legitamently went and farmed the items.
Buying from a botter or buying from a player is like buying vegetable from the store or getting them from a Fruit/vegetable stand on the side of the road. So should the stand owner's lose out because a store is able to make the product more readily available. So I guess what I am trying to say is "STOP QQ-ING AND L2FARM!" Lazy players are what makes player driven economies fail.
I have to partially disagree with this. yes to a point you are right but you are forgetting the greed that people have. Let me give you an example. In Vanguard, when people first started making boats, they were going for 25 gold at the time and let me tell you, Unless you were playing the buy em up and resell stuff at high prices gig, you as an adventurer was not any where near 25 gold at the time that you could actually use boats. So I talked to several crafters and found out what every component they needed was and I went out to gather them myself. It took me several days to get every item I needed so that the crafter wouldnt have to do anything but hit combine several times (It took about 30 minutes of combining to make the ship). Well, just in those few days it took me to gather the stuff I needed, Prices for ships had sored to almost 80 gold. I couldn't even get a person to make the ship when I furnished all the items! By that time, and this was just a couple days mind you, they wouldnt even combine them for less than 40 gold. 40 gold!!!! It would take me over 2 weeks to make that as an adventurer at that time. So, again, its not lazy players that drive economies to fail, its the greedy sob's that feel their time is worth 5 times more than everyone elses.
1 question.....what stopped you from creating your own.
That is a very good question. I had went up a different line in crafting at the time. But that was so that I could supply my own items for my character later down the road. I also recognize that there are people that play these games solely as crafters and never once (if the game allows for it) adventure anywhere. I have no problems trying to support my local crafters, after all that is what they like to do. But it is obvious that they are not doing it because they love to craft. they are doing it solely for getting stinking rich. I do blame them, but I blame the developers more for not being more controlling. To me, this is no different than when people take advantage of bugs to gain lots of money or levels. To me, its just a bug that developers have not fixed yet and hope that one day they do.
But to finish answering your question. I just lived without. As a matter of fact, all those items are still sitting in the bank on my deactivated account. Heck, I even made it into the 40's. I just refuse to play that type of game with crafters.
Okay, the OP is conflating at least three, probably four, different and not automatically related issues into one rant. Taking them apart and addressing them individually:
Player run economies are just that, player run. It is capitalism in a fairly pure form. The seller is under no real life pressure to produce or sell and the buyer is likewise not compelled to buy. Thus, exempting other factors, prices tend to stabilize at whatever the market will naturally bear. The buyer is choosing to pay the seller XX in game currency which pretty much just represents time invested. This is about as "fair" as it gets.
Market PvP and "Scams", now scamming someone with a false lead sale or other cleverness is a different matter. In some games like EVE, it is the accepted norm. In others, it may actually be against the operating company's TOS. Either way, it is really a case of "caveat emptor".
MUDFlation or MMOFlation is also nothing new, most MMOs lack adequate money sinks. (Meaning in basic terms, more money is steadily introduced to the game via drops and quest than is taken out through other means) This means that as an MMO ages, the money supply increases; it also tends to increasingly mimic real world distribution patterns of a few very very wealthy controlling lots of the cash. Various companies deal with this (or don't) in different ways.
Macroing/Cash farming/Botting: Again this is nothing new to the MMO world and basically boils down to the fact that at the most basic level, wealth in MMOs is derived from time played. Thus use of any unattended macro, bot, multiple accounts etc will increase a players wealth beyond what is "normal". Some games openly allow this to various degrees, EVE is one such in that it encourages multiple accounts while attempting to limit actual bots and macros; others try to ban it altogether. Either way, it is present in effectively every MMO.
Now none of this is anything new and should become pretty much obvious to anyone playing MMOs for any length of time. There are a number of ways to "cope".
1. Curb your greed and simply accept that you may not get all your "wants" from the economy. No one is forcing you to compete except your own ego.
2. Play smarter, better, more efficiently, network etc and out do them at their own game. Many people have made billions in EVE and joined the "elite" ranks of the very wealthy simply by being very very good at what they do. (Knew a guy in EQ1 who had 10s of thousands of platinum but had never been in a real dungeon, made it all buying and selling) Accept that not everyone doing better than you got there by cheating.
3. Can't beat 'em, join 'em. Employ the same methods when they are allowed or even the banned ones if you are willing to take the risks, just accept everything else that can come with it. (Bannings, hackings, keyloggings etc)
4. Lastly, if none of the above works for you - play some other kind of game
Edit: I should add that actual bugs and exploits are another matter and the company really should remove any cash generated from them or it helps wreck the economy; but not all companies care and some just designed totally dysfunctional economies from the start.
Sadly, most people tend to be greedy. I also don't like player focused economies, because it leaves non-crafters hostage to crafters. When we are dependent on them for potions, bandages, food and drink, equipment and so forth, it means we can't go and adventure whenever we want to, we have to schedule it around the time it takes to find someone to make them for you or to wait for them to finish the order. In other words, you are far too dependent on others in order to have a fun gaming experience.
It's all well and good for those who like to craft, who ARE in the minority, but not so good for adventurers. The whole process can be quite frustrating. I experienced this in early Dark Age of Camelot. This was before they started dropping decent equipment in dungeons and quests. Back then, all of the good equipment that gave you an edge in combat was crafter made. It was incredibly expensive and never available when you needed it and it completely removed one of the biggest incentives to adventuring, loot drops.
There were so many complaints about it that Mythic changed direction and started itemizing popular dungeons and quests with superior or on par equipment.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Okay, the OP is conflating at least three, probably four, different and not automatically related issues into one rant. Taking them apart and addressing them individually: Player run economies are just that, player run. It is capitalism in a fairly pure form. The seller is under no real life pressure to produce or sell and the buyer is likewise not compelled to buy. Thus, exempting other factors, prices tend to stabilize at whatever the market will naturally bear. The buyer is choosing to pay the seller XX in game currency which pretty much just represents time invested. This is about as "fair" as it gets. Market PvP and "Scams", now scamming someone with a false lead sale or other cleverness is a different matter. In some games like EVE, it is the accepted norm. In others, it may actually be against the operating company's TOS. Either way, it is really a case of "caveat emptor". MUDFlation or MMOFlation is also nothing new, most MMOs lack adequate money sinks. (Meaning in basic terms, more money is steadily introduced to the game via drops and quest than is taken out through other means) This means that as an MMO ages, the money supply increases; it also tends to increasingly mimic real world distribution patterns of a few very very wealthy controlling lots of the cash. Various companies deal with this (or don't) in different ways. Macroing/Cash farming/Botting: Again this is nothing new to the MMO world and basically boils down to the fact that at the most basic level, wealth in MMOs is derived from time played. Thus use of any unattended macro, bot, multiple accounts etc will increase a players wealth beyond what is "normal". Some games openly allow this to various degrees, EVE is one such in that it encourages multiple accounts while attempting to limit actual bots and macros; others try to ban it altogether. Either way, it is present in effectively every MMO.
Now none of this is anything new and should become pretty much obvious to anyone playing MMOs for any length of time. There are a number of ways to "cope". 1. Curb your greed and simply accept that you may not get all your "wants" from the economy. No one is forcing you to compete except your own ego. 2. Play smarter, better, more efficiently, network etc and out do them at their own game. Many people have made billions in EVE and joined the "elite" ranks of the very wealthy simply by being very very good at what they do. (Knew a guy in EQ1 who had 10s of thousands of platinum but had never been in a real dungeon, made it all buying and selling) Accept that not everyone doing better than you got there by cheating. 3. Can't beat 'em, join 'em. Employ the same methods when they are allowed or even the banned ones if you are willing to take the risks, just accept everything else that can come with it. (Bannings, hackings, keyloggings etc) 4. Lastly, if none of the above works for you - play some other kind of game Edit: I should add that actual bugs and exploits are another matter and the company really should remove any cash generated from them or it helps wreck the economy; but not all companies care and some just designed totally dysfunctional economies from the start.
so true
There are times when one must ask themselves is it my passion that truly frightens you? Or your own?
here's something I did in WoW that shows a player driven economy working. The Northrend Darkmoon Faire Card(more specifically the nobles cards) were a hot commodity when most people were just hitting 80 so I farmed enough mats to make 2-3 cards and BLAM I got 2 nobles card so i check the AH the cheapest nobles card I had was in the AH for the INSANE price of 1800g I took this as my opportunity to exploit the Botters and I undercut them to the point where the Same card that cost 1800g was now being sold for only 200-300g. On top of making nearly 15,000 gold in only one night, I boosted the economy by buying all the herbs out of the AH and making cards, and guess what the Botter were forced to lower their prices to make any money and the herbs I had bought we nearly replinished the next day ready for me to do it again.
Good for you! but what I figure actually happened was that the botters bought up what you were selling at that low low price and then re pushed it back out at their prices. Sure, YOU made 15,000 gold in one night, and you helped out the herb farmers by buying up all their herbs but in the end here is what usually happens.
Botter buys up everything you put up and puts it back out there at his prices.
you bought all the herbs there was on the market.
The botter may or may not lower his prices right now
The herb farmers may or may not see that everything is going as quickly as they put them up so it might take them a few days but they eventually start pushing up the prices on their herbs.
You end up having to raise your prices on the cards because the mats were are getting to expensive.
and then rinse and repeat and eventually the price for those cards are back up to or near the botters prices.
In the end, you get rich, the botter gets rich and the herb farmers get a nice boost to their money but in the end, the general public will still not be able to afford said items.
People who play the auction house (as long as they are dedicated to it) will make a fortune. Just look at my eq2 reference to understand how it can be done. It takes dedication but the greedy are already full of that.
Sadly, most people tend to be greedy. I also don't like player focused economies, because it leaves non-crafters hostage to crafters. When we are dependent on them for potions, bandages, food and drink, equipment and so forth, it means we can't go and adventure whenever we want to, we have to schedule it around the time it takes to find someone to make them for you or to wait for them to finish the order. In other words, you are far too dependent on others in order to have a fun gaming experience. It's all well and good for those who like to craft, who ARE in the minority, but not so good for adventurers. The whole process can be quite frustrating. I experienced this in early Dark Age of Camelot. This was before they started dropping decent equipment in dungeons and quests. Back then, all of the good equipment that gave you an edge in combat was crafter made. It was incredibly expensive and never available when you needed it and it completely removed one of the biggest incentives to adventuring, loot drops.
if you don't craft in an MMORPG then you are SERIOUSLY hindering yourself
There are times when one must ask themselves is it my passion that truly frightens you? Or your own?
Isk in EVE is easy to come by once you get the hang of the game. I make 700 mill a day running complexes in 0.0 and thats only from a few hours work. I got people in my alliances that make billions passivaly from manufacturing and other lesser known methods.
Sadly, most people tend to be greedy. I also don't like player focused economies, because it leaves non-crafters hostage to crafters. When we are dependent on them for potions, bandages, food and drink, equipment and so forth, it means we can't go and adventure whenever we want to, we have to schedule it around the time it takes to find someone to make them for you or to wait for them to finish the order. In other words, you are far too dependent on others in order to have a fun gaming experience. It's all well and good for those who like to craft, who ARE in the minority, but not so good for adventurers. The whole process can be quite frustrating. I experienced this in early Dark Age of Camelot. This was before they started dropping decent equipment in dungeons and quests. Back then, all of the good equipment that gave you an edge in combat was crafter made. It was incredibly expensive and never available when you needed it and it completely removed one of the biggest incentives to adventuring, loot drops.
if you don't craft in an MMORPG then you are SERIOUSLY hindering yourself
Why would I want to do something that I don't enjoy? Why would I even want to play a game that forces me to depend on one single method of acquisition? I didn't even finish out the first month of DAoC, but I came back and really enjoyed the game when they implemented worthwhile loot drops. The same with SWG, hated it in the beginning, liked it when they implemented usable loot drops just before the combat upgrade. Most people find crafting beyond boring and are not masochistic enough to do it just to keep from hindering ourselves.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
here's something I did in WoW that shows a player driven economy working. The Northrend Darkmoon Faire Card(more specifically the nobles cards) were a hot commodity when most people were just hitting 80 so I farmed enough mats to make 2-3 cards and BLAM I got 2 nobles card so i check the AH the cheapest nobles card I had was in the AH for the INSANE price of 1800g I took this as my opportunity to exploit the Botters and I undercut them to the point where the Same card that cost 1800g was now being sold for only 200-300g. On top of making nearly 15,000 gold in only one night, I boosted the economy by buying all the herbs out of the AH and making cards, and guess what the Botter were forced to lower their prices to make any money and the herbs I had bought we nearly replinished the next day ready for me to do it again.
Good for you! but what I figure actually happened was that the botters bought up what you were selling at that low low price and then re pushed it back out at their prices. Sure, YOU made 15,000 gold in one night, and you helped out the herb farmers by buying up all their herbs but in the end here is what usually happens.
Botter buys up everything you put up and puts it back out there at his prices.
you bought all the herbs there was on the market.
The botter may or may not lower his prices right now
The herb farmers may or may not see that everything is going as quickly as they put them up so it might take them a few days but they eventually start pushing up the prices on their herbs.
You end up having to raise your prices on the cards because the mats were are getting to expensive.
and then rinse and repeat and eventually the price for those cards are back up to or near the botters prices.
In the end, you get rich, the botter gets rich and the herb farmers get a nice boost to their money but in the end, the general public will still not be able to afford said items.
People who play the auction house (as long as they are dedicated to it) will make a fortune. Just look at my eq2 reference to understand how it can be done. It takes dedication but the greedy are already full of that.
Actually I pushed helped to push the prices waaay down.....besides if they took out the Auction Houses what is gonna stop player from simply opening a TRADE WINDOW also without AH's and player ran economies the Lazy player will have to actually PLAY the game for what they want. Its gonna happen regulated or not....like I said before LAZY PLAYERS RUIN THE ECONOMY
There are times when one must ask themselves is it my passion that truly frightens you? Or your own?
Sadly, most people tend to be greedy. I also don't like player focused economies, because it leaves non-crafters hostage to crafters. When we are dependent on them for potions, bandages, food and drink, equipment and so forth, it means we can't go and adventure whenever we want to, we have to schedule it around the time it takes to find someone to make them for you or to wait for them to finish the order. In other words, you are far too dependent on others in order to have a fun gaming experience. It's all well and good for those who like to craft, who ARE in the minority, but not so good for adventurers. The whole process can be quite frustrating. I experienced this in early Dark Age of Camelot. This was before they started dropping decent equipment in dungeons and quests. Back then, all of the good equipment that gave you an edge in combat was crafter made. It was incredibly expensive and never available when you needed it and it completely removed one of the biggest incentives to adventuring, loot drops.
if you don't craft in an MMORPG then you are SERIOUSLY hindering yourself
Why would I want to do something that I don't enjoy? Why would I even want to play a game that forces me to depend on one single method of acquisition? I didn't even finish out the first month of DAoC, but I came back and really enjoyed the game when they implemented worthwhile loot drops. The same with SWG, hated it in the beginning, liked it when they implemented usable loot drops just before the combat upgrade. Most people find crafting beyond boring and are not masochistic enough to do it just to keep from hindering ourselves.
Well WoW for example gave you stats and new spells and abilites for grinding your trade skills on-top of items that you can only use if you have a certain trade skill
There are times when one must ask themselves is it my passion that truly frightens you? Or your own?
Sadly, most people tend to be greedy. I also don't like player focused economies, because it leaves non-crafters hostage to crafters. When we are dependent on them for potions, bandages, food and drink, equipment and so forth, it means we can't go and adventure whenever we want to, we have to schedule it around the time it takes to find someone to make them for you or to wait for them to finish the order. In other words, you are far too dependent on others in order to have a fun gaming experience. It's all well and good for those who like to craft, who ARE in the minority, but not so good for adventurers. The whole process can be quite frustrating. I experienced this in early Dark Age of Camelot. This was before they started dropping decent equipment in dungeons and quests. Back then, all of the good equipment that gave you an edge in combat was crafter made. It was incredibly expensive and never available when you needed it and it completely removed one of the biggest incentives to adventuring, loot drops.
if you don't craft in an MMORPG then you are SERIOUSLY hindering yourself
QFT! However, in most games you can only go up one or two lines in crafting. Which still puts you at the mercy of the rest of the crafters out there. Thus why when I play an MMO, I always take crafting for the line thats going to help my character along. I.E. making my own weapons or armor. But I dont do it to get rich, I do it so that I have the items that I need most while I level. Personally I hate crafting with a passion. I am an adventurer, not a warez dealer.Thus why I have never been rich in any mmo that I have ever played. I refuse to play real world econmics in a video game.
here's something I did in WoW that shows a player driven economy working. The Northrend Darkmoon Faire Card(more specifically the nobles cards) were a hot commodity when most people were just hitting 80 so I farmed enough mats to make 2-3 cards and BLAM I got 2 nobles card so i check the AH the cheapest nobles card I had was in the AH for the INSANE price of 1800g I took this as my opportunity to exploit the Botters and I undercut them to the point where the Same card that cost 1800g was now being sold for only 200-300g. On top of making nearly 15,000 gold in only one night, I boosted the economy by buying all the herbs out of the AH and making cards, and guess what the Botter were forced to lower their prices to make any money and the herbs I had bought we nearly replinished the next day ready for me to do it again.
Good for you! but what I figure actually happened was that the botters bought up what you were selling at that low low price and then re pushed it back out at their prices. Sure, YOU made 15,000 gold in one night, and you helped out the herb farmers by buying up all their herbs but in the end here is what usually happens.
Botter buys up everything you put up and puts it back out there at his prices.
you bought all the herbs there was on the market.
The botter may or may not lower his prices right now
The herb farmers may or may not see that everything is going as quickly as they put them up so it might take them a few days but they eventually start pushing up the prices on their herbs.
You end up having to raise your prices on the cards because the mats were are getting to expensive.
and then rinse and repeat and eventually the price for those cards are back up to or near the botters prices.
In the end, you get rich, the botter gets rich and the herb farmers get a nice boost to their money but in the end, the general public will still not be able to afford said items.
People who play the auction house (as long as they are dedicated to it) will make a fortune. Just look at my eq2 reference to understand how it can be done. It takes dedication but the greedy are already full of that.
Actually I pushed helped to push the prices waaay down.....besides if they took out the Auction Houses what is gonna stop player from simply opening a TRADE WINDOW also without AH's and player ran economies the Lazy player will have to actually PLAY the game for what they want. Its gonna happen regulated or not....like I said before LAZY PLAYERS RUIN THE ECONOMY
Actually two things can stop every bit of that in its tracks!
1. No player trading allowed.
2. Only selling via an auction house or vendor allows the developers to control pricing as they can set a min/max on every single item in the game.
Bonus's to the above 2.
3. This also stops players from pumping up their lower level characters. Which I am actually partial to but willing to give it up if it means we are not price gouged at every corner.
4. This virtually eliminates gold farmers. if they cant trade with you, you cant buy their money and they cant make money. They will not play a game where they cant make money.
here's something I did in WoW that shows a player driven economy working. The Northrend Darkmoon Faire Card(more specifically the nobles cards) were a hot commodity when most people were just hitting 80 so I farmed enough mats to make 2-3 cards and BLAM I got 2 nobles card so i check the AH the cheapest nobles card I had was in the AH for the INSANE price of 1800g I took this as my opportunity to exploit the Botters and I undercut them to the point where the Same card that cost 1800g was now being sold for only 200-300g. On top of making nearly 15,000 gold in only one night, I boosted the economy by buying all the herbs out of the AH and making cards, and guess what the Botter were forced to lower their prices to make any money and the herbs I had bought we nearly replinished the next day ready for me to do it again.
Good for you! but what I figure actually happened was that the botters bought up what you were selling at that low low price and then re pushed it back out at their prices. Sure, YOU made 15,000 gold in one night, and you helped out the herb farmers by buying up all their herbs but in the end here is what usually happens.
Botter buys up everything you put up and puts it back out there at his prices.
you bought all the herbs there was on the market.
The botter may or may not lower his prices right now
The herb farmers may or may not see that everything is going as quickly as they put them up so it might take them a few days but they eventually start pushing up the prices on their herbs.
You end up having to raise your prices on the cards because the mats were are getting to expensive.
and then rinse and repeat and eventually the price for those cards are back up to or near the botters prices.
In the end, you get rich, the botter gets rich and the herb farmers get a nice boost to their money but in the end, the general public will still not be able to afford said items.
People who play the auction house (as long as they are dedicated to it) will make a fortune. Just look at my eq2 reference to understand how it can be done. It takes dedication but the greedy are already full of that.
Actually I pushed helped to push the prices waaay down.....besides if they took out the Auction Houses what is gonna stop player from simply opening a TRADE WINDOW also without AH's and player ran economies the Lazy player will have to actually PLAY the game for what they want. Its gonna happen regulated or not....like I said before LAZY PLAYERS RUIN THE ECONOMY
Actually two things can stop every bit of that in its tracks!
1. No player trading allowed.
2. Only selling via an auction house or vendor allows the developers to control pricing as they can set a min/max on every single item in the game.
Bonus's to the above 2.
3. This also stops players from pumping up their lower level characters. Which I am actually partial to but willing to give it up if it means we are not price gouged at every corner.
4. This virtually eliminates gold farmers. if they cant trade with you, you cant buy their money and they cant make money. They will not play a game where they cant make money.
I don't know of anyone that will play a game where they can't trade with fellow players outside an AH
There are times when one must ask themselves is it my passion that truly frightens you? Or your own?
I only read the last page of the posts so far but seeing as how I just logged out of Eve-Online I would like to point out that a player based economy can work extremely well. It just might not be possible if based around the WoW style gaming system. At no point do I feel at the mercy of anyone else for something in game while at the same time, the rare items that can't be built butonly dropped as loot or reward maintains high value through the contracts system.
While I am an obvious lover of the game I merely mean to use this as an example that a player run/based/focused economy can work very well, not that is is necessarily transferrable to other games or for that matter, perfect.
What are people thought's on player run economy? Let's take a look at EVE Online which has one of the most advanced economies.
And like a real economy, over the years I have seen prices rise higher and higher for ships. I am now paying bout 55% more for tech 2 ships that I did previously. And recall- if you get this ship blown up you gotta go buy another. Ouch!
Where are people getting all this ingame money to buy this stuff????
IT's gotta be due to all these macros and cheats. I know in EVE, there is now a macro so advanced, it will farm everything for you and even hide your ship if another player might possibly attack.
I'm starting to think player run economy = GET SCREWED BY OTHER PLAYERS 24/7!
I guess for you WoW players the equivalent would be Auction House for rares. I dont know bout now but I remember pre-Battlegrounds we saw insane prices for tradeable rare Epics. Really sucks that players can accumulate all this ingame money from hacks, cheats, farmers, etc. Ruins the game for other players indirectly and we dont even realize how bad we're all getting screwed over by cheaters
Straight up quit QQ'ing. If you get ripped off then that means your just not playing right... its not all from hacks and cheats, its either a huge amount of time invested or they just time manage better then you do. Maybe look at your game plan again before goin out and grinding uselss mobs for couple hours..all about strategy
I cant compete with people running macros that farm ISK (ingame currency in EVE) 24/7. I just cant. There is no way. These macros have gotten so advanced they scan your video buffer and totally automate the game for you
They even pvp for you essentially or rather- automate evasion.
No human can compete with this. Not unless I become hella great at Trading overnight?
This happens with many MMORPG, my experiance with it was in SWG, but need to be clear it did not bother me cause I choose my own playstyle, and Mastered almost every profession, where crafting was my main thing.
The only thing that bothered me was the hate mails I was getting cause some greedy kids felt my prices where to low, where I played the game so that every new person entering the game would have a fair change at buying lowby items, I mean people where selling simply speeders for 40k/50/75k, where I sold my speeders 12k,50, but then again when I made my shops my shops/vendors had all type of things, meaning when I ?Mastered DE, you could find any type of droid, any type of engineerd item, droids came in many lvl's, for example you could buy a lvl 10 Droideka, but also could buy a lvl 60 and several lvl's in between. This was when I returned to SWG back in 2007 for about 8 months.
I want and always want to be their for the community and not for the greed. The greed people will get bordered eventually, the amount of times I heard people complain they not selling well, and when looking at what they sell and at what prices it wasn't suprising some people didn't sell well as it's their own fault to play the greed game instead of the community game.
What you need to understand is that YOU DO NOT NEED TO COMPETE with them, cause lets face they not compete with YOU thats the reason why people are lazy or use macro's or cheats. And nope not used one macro in SWG other then a chat-spam macro, that when I clicked my macro all you would see me do is YELL a message where people could find my shop(s) and the type of items they could find at my shops, which I used 1 time when traveling from SP to SP. I mean why would anyone wanna compete with those who simply don't really want to play a game? Oh another thing before someone might get the wrong idea here about me, as I am not able to spend much time with this genre and the things I do always take allot of time, meaning where some 24/7 player might gain 5 lvl's with a few day's, it could take me sometimes some weeks before I gained a lvl or more lvl's. But thats the beauty of MMORPG as they are not jobs which means why would I rush/cheat or use macro's, not that I would use it in RL, but seriously I never understood the use of macro's or cheats with games.
here's something I did in WoW that shows a player driven economy working. The Northrend Darkmoon Faire Card(more specifically the nobles cards) were a hot commodity when most people were just hitting 80 so I farmed enough mats to make 2-3 cards and BLAM I got 2 nobles card so i check the AH the cheapest nobles card I had was in the AH for the INSANE price of 1800g I took this as my opportunity to exploit the Botters and I undercut them to the point where the Same card that cost 1800g was now being sold for only 200-300g. On top of making nearly 15,000 gold in only one night, I boosted the economy by buying all the herbs out of the AH and making cards, and guess what the Botter were forced to lower their prices to make any money and the herbs I had bought we nearly replinished the next day ready for me to do it again.
Good for you! but what I figure actually happened was that the botters bought up what you were selling at that low low price and then re pushed it back out at their prices. Sure, YOU made 15,000 gold in one night, and you helped out the herb farmers by buying up all their herbs but in the end here is what usually happens.
Botter buys up everything you put up and puts it back out there at his prices.
you bought all the herbs there was on the market.
The botter may or may not lower his prices right now
The herb farmers may or may not see that everything is going as quickly as they put them up so it might take them a few days but they eventually start pushing up the prices on their herbs.
You end up having to raise your prices on the cards because the mats were are getting to expensive.
and then rinse and repeat and eventually the price for those cards are back up to or near the botters prices.
In the end, you get rich, the botter gets rich and the herb farmers get a nice boost to their money but in the end, the general public will still not be able to afford said items.
People who play the auction house (as long as they are dedicated to it) will make a fortune. Just look at my eq2 reference to understand how it can be done. It takes dedication but the greedy are already full of that.
Actually I pushed helped to push the prices waaay down.....besides if they took out the Auction Houses what is gonna stop player from simply opening a TRADE WINDOW also without AH's and player ran economies the Lazy player will have to actually PLAY the game for what they want. Its gonna happen regulated or not....like I said before LAZY PLAYERS RUIN THE ECONOMY
Actually two things can stop every bit of that in its tracks!
1. No player trading allowed.
2. Only selling via an auction house or vendor allows the developers to control pricing as they can set a min/max on every single item in the game.
Bonus's to the above 2.
3. This also stops players from pumping up their lower level characters. Which I am actually partial to but willing to give it up if it means we are not price gouged at every corner.
4. This virtually eliminates gold farmers. if they cant trade with you, you cant buy their money and they cant make money. They will not play a game where they cant make money.
I don't know of anyone that will play a game where they can't trade with fellow players outside an AH
And why not? You still group with your fellow players,They still get cool items in game, they can still show them off, they can still sell them, they simply cant trade them.
You know why gold sellers can not be gotten rid of? Its because no matter how hard the devs try, they cant police everything. let me rephrase that. Most companies are not willing or not able to afford to spend enough money to keep people on 24/7 just to get rid of the spammer selling gold in the level 1 area or level 20 area or so on. Take a look at DDO. Gold in that game was extremely easy to come by. All you had to do was play the game and you would have enough gold. If you put items on the vendors, they paid you for the item and turned around and resold your item for what the vendors thought they were worth. They were soooo close! But they allowed player trading and eventually put in the auction house. Gold farmers are rampant in that game to. A place were gold was easy to come by and you could buy anything you needed for your character off the vendors, ruined by the auction house and player trading.
People complain like mad to the game companies over gold farmers. No player trading COUPLED with an auction house that sets a min/max worth on all items will completely eliminate gold farmers. Adventurers can still adventure, crafters can still craft (They just cant get super rich anymore), Inflation is gone, price gouging is gone, gold farmers are gone. How could you not want to play that game?
here's something I did in WoW that shows a player driven economy working. The Northrend Darkmoon Faire Card(more specifically the nobles cards) were a hot commodity when most people were just hitting 80 so I farmed enough mats to make 2-3 cards and BLAM I got 2 nobles card so i check the AH the cheapest nobles card I had was in the AH for the INSANE price of 1800g I took this as my opportunity to exploit the Botters and I undercut them to the point where the Same card that cost 1800g was now being sold for only 200-300g. On top of making nearly 15,000 gold in only one night, I boosted the economy by buying all the herbs out of the AH and making cards, and guess what the Botter were forced to lower their prices to make any money and the herbs I had bought we nearly replinished the next day ready for me to do it again.
Good for you! but what I figure actually happened was that the botters bought up what you were selling at that low low price and then re pushed it back out at their prices. Sure, YOU made 15,000 gold in one night, and you helped out the herb farmers by buying up all their herbs but in the end here is what usually happens.
Botter buys up everything you put up and puts it back out there at his prices.
you bought all the herbs there was on the market.
The botter may or may not lower his prices right now
The herb farmers may or may not see that everything is going as quickly as they put them up so it might take them a few days but they eventually start pushing up the prices on their herbs.
You end up having to raise your prices on the cards because the mats were are getting to expensive.
and then rinse and repeat and eventually the price for those cards are back up to or near the botters prices.
In the end, you get rich, the botter gets rich and the herb farmers get a nice boost to their money but in the end, the general public will still not be able to afford said items.
People who play the auction house (as long as they are dedicated to it) will make a fortune. Just look at my eq2 reference to understand how it can be done. It takes dedication but the greedy are already full of that.
Actually I pushed helped to push the prices waaay down.....besides if they took out the Auction Houses what is gonna stop player from simply opening a TRADE WINDOW also without AH's and player ran economies the Lazy player will have to actually PLAY the game for what they want. Its gonna happen regulated or not....like I said before LAZY PLAYERS RUIN THE ECONOMY
Actually two things can stop every bit of that in its tracks!
1. No player trading allowed.
2. Only selling via an auction house or vendor allows the developers to control pricing as they can set a min/max on every single item in the game.
Bonus's to the above 2.
3. This also stops players from pumping up their lower level characters. Which I am actually partial to but willing to give it up if it means we are not price gouged at every corner.
4. This virtually eliminates gold farmers. if they cant trade with you, you cant buy their money and they cant make money. They will not play a game where they cant make money.
I don't know of anyone that will play a game where they can't trade with fellow players outside an AH
And why not? You still group with your fellow players,They still get cool items in game, they can still show them off, they can still sell them, they simply cant trade them.
You know why gold sellers can not be gotten rid of? Its because no matter how hard the devs try, they cant police everything. let me rephrase that. Most companies are not willing or not able to afford to spend enough money to keep people on 24/7 just to get rid of the spammer selling gold in the level 1 area or level 20 area or so on. Take a look at DDO. Gold in that game was extremely easy to come by. All you had to do was play the game and you would have enough gold. If you put items on the vendors, they paid you for the item and turned around and resold your item for what the vendors thought they were worth. They were soooo close! But they allowed player trading and eventually put in the auction house. Gold farmers are rampant in that game to. A place were gold was easy to come by and you could buy anything you needed for your character off the vendors, ruined by the auction house and player trading.
People complain like mad to the game companies over gold farmers. No player trading COUPLED with an auction house that sets a min/max worth on all items will completely eliminate gold farmers. Adventurers can still adventure, crafters can still craft (They just cant get super rich anymore), Inflation is gone, price gouging is gone, gold farmers are gone. How could you not want to play that game?
Its a loss of freedom. Gold Farmers only exist because people refuse to do things the EASY way. If you level your trade skills as you level you don't have to spend much more time than you would have leveling your toon and with up-to-date trades you have current gear and more money than you know what to do with. And those pesky Gold farmers go on your ignore list so you don't have to deal with them. I am trying to see you point but I am hearing is, "I don't like to level my trade skills so punish the rest of the gaming community." btw in WoW most 'adventuring' PVE guilds won't even consider you without max trades. And thats another with a guild you don't have to level every trade skill just one or two and then contribute to the guild and they will contribute back. and the way you described your perfect economy system it sounds alot like communism.
There are times when one must ask themselves is it my passion that truly frightens you? Or your own?
here's something I did in WoW that shows a player driven economy working. The Northrend Darkmoon Faire Card(more specifically the nobles cards) were a hot commodity when most people were just hitting 80 so I farmed enough mats to make 2-3 cards and BLAM I got 2 nobles card so i check the AH the cheapest nobles card I had was in the AH for the INSANE price of 1800g I took this as my opportunity to exploit the Botters and I undercut them to the point where the Same card that cost 1800g was now being sold for only 200-300g. On top of making nearly 15,000 gold in only one night, I boosted the economy by buying all the herbs out of the AH and making cards, and guess what the Botter were forced to lower their prices to make any money and the herbs I had bought we nearly replinished the next day ready for me to do it again.
Good for you! but what I figure actually happened was that the botters bought up what you were selling at that low low price and then re pushed it back out at their prices. Sure, YOU made 15,000 gold in one night, and you helped out the herb farmers by buying up all their herbs but in the end here is what usually happens.
Botter buys up everything you put up and puts it back out there at his prices.
you bought all the herbs there was on the market.
The botter may or may not lower his prices right now
The herb farmers may or may not see that everything is going as quickly as they put them up so it might take them a few days but they eventually start pushing up the prices on their herbs.
You end up having to raise your prices on the cards because the mats were are getting to expensive.
and then rinse and repeat and eventually the price for those cards are back up to or near the botters prices.
In the end, you get rich, the botter gets rich and the herb farmers get a nice boost to their money but in the end, the general public will still not be able to afford said items.
People who play the auction house (as long as they are dedicated to it) will make a fortune. Just look at my eq2 reference to understand how it can be done. It takes dedication but the greedy are already full of that.
Actually I pushed helped to push the prices waaay down.....besides if they took out the Auction Houses what is gonna stop player from simply opening a TRADE WINDOW also without AH's and player ran economies the Lazy player will have to actually PLAY the game for what they want. Its gonna happen regulated or not....like I said before LAZY PLAYERS RUIN THE ECONOMY
Actually two things can stop every bit of that in its tracks!
1. No player trading allowed.
2. Only selling via an auction house or vendor allows the developers to control pricing as they can set a min/max on every single item in the game.
Bonus's to the above 2.
3. This also stops players from pumping up their lower level characters. Which I am actually partial to but willing to give it up if it means we are not price gouged at every corner.
4. This virtually eliminates gold farmers. if they cant trade with you, you cant buy their money and they cant make money. They will not play a game where they cant make money.
I don't know of anyone that will play a game where they can't trade with fellow players outside an AH
And why not? You still group with your fellow players,They still get cool items in game, they can still show them off, they can still sell them, they simply cant trade them.
You know why gold sellers can not be gotten rid of? Its because no matter how hard the devs try, they cant police everything. let me rephrase that. Most companies are not willing or not able to afford to spend enough money to keep people on 24/7 just to get rid of the spammer selling gold in the level 1 area or level 20 area or so on. Take a look at DDO. Gold in that game was extremely easy to come by. All you had to do was play the game and you would have enough gold. If you put items on the vendors, they paid you for the item and turned around and resold your item for what the vendors thought they were worth. They were soooo close! But they allowed player trading and eventually put in the auction house. Gold farmers are rampant in that game to. A place were gold was easy to come by and you could buy anything you needed for your character off the vendors, ruined by the auction house and player trading.
People complain like mad to the game companies over gold farmers. No player trading COUPLED with an auction house that sets a min/max worth on all items will completely eliminate gold farmers. Adventurers can still adventure, crafters can still craft (They just cant get super rich anymore), Inflation is gone, price gouging is gone, gold farmers are gone. How could you not want to play that game?
Its a loss of freedom. Gold Farmers only exist because people refuse to do things the EASY way. If you level your trade skills as you level you don't have to spend much more time than you would have leveling your toon and with up-to-date trades you have current gear and more money than you know what to do with. And those pesky Gold farmers go on your ignore list so you don't have to deal with them. I am trying to see you point but I am hearing is, "I don't like to level my trade skills so punish the rest of the gaming community." btw in WoW most 'adventuring' PVE guilds won't even consider you without max trades. And thats another with a guild you don't have to level every trade skill just one or two and then contribute to the guild and they will contribute back. and the way you described your perfect economy system it sounds alot like communism.
We are talking about a video game here, not real world economics. Sure in the real world it would be close to communism But in a video game it is entirely something else. Gold farmers are ALWAYS going to exist with the current economies in video games. Why? You said it earlier, people are lazy. There are people that will only play a video game once they have bought a maxed out character. They say they only like the end game content and dont wish to participate in the earlier stuff.
People on this board alone have been begging for something different from MMO's. They want innovation, but people in general are usually afraid of change. You say your losing a freedom because you cant trade with another person. What are you really losing here? You can still sell everything in the game, you simply cant trade it and cant be greedy. So what you really lose is people cant be ass's when it comes to being greedy. You play WoW, Can you hop in a rocket ship and fly into space? Of course not, its not in the game. maybe you want to fly in space, does that mean your freedom has been lost? No, It is just a limitation to the game. Same with the economy that I am talking about.
As for guilds, this is why I chose my guilds carefully. I do not go for power guilds, I do not go for elitest guilds. If an adventureing guild in wow wont except you because of trade skills, they are an elitest guild and I wouldnt want to play with them anyway. My last guild in WoW started out as a great guild. Just a bunch of folks that played together and had fun. We eventually grew into a very powerfull guild that was starting to raid almost everything that WoW had to offer back then. Greed started creeping into the higher ups (meaning the guild leaders) and I saw it coming. I and many others in the guild tried to squash it because this was not an elitest type guild, it was a guild of people that was almost like family. However, they grew to big to quickly and fell to the greed monster. All of a sudden, they wanted to implement a Raid loot distribution system (Diku type if I remember it correctly). I have always been a big believer of, if you are on the raid and you need said item, you get to roll on it plain and simple. I have never liked those Diku type systems as it breeds even more greed and more hate throughout the guild until it usually destroys the guild in the process. Sure you might end up being the top raiding guild for a short time, but it rarely ever lasts. Guilds are like families and when you start letting greed take over, it destroys everything.
Its not being elistist to require someone to be complete in order to join in end game content its called being ready, First Aid is a must.....because you can do it in combat and it allows healers to save mana instead of healing you also there are bosses that can't be encountered without building up the most annoying WoW tradeskill 'fishing' and having things that only master crafters have makes things easier as well. If you are going to play a MMORPG why not strive to be the best, wether or not you get there.
As for you elistist guild...when guilds get that big its necessary to incoorperate things such as DKP or EPGP so that greed doesn't become a factor, people are less greedy when they know they are not gonna get gear unless they contribute to the raid.
Me yeah you can call me an Elitist I raided with some of the best and I got spoiled....it stopped being about wether or not we could do a raid but How fast we could do it.
There are times when one must ask themselves is it my passion that truly frightens you? Or your own?
Its not being elistist to require someone to be complete in order to join in end game content its called being ready, First Aid is a must.....because you can do it in combat and it allows healers to save mana instead of healing you also there are bosses that can't be encountered without building up the most annoying WoW tradeskill 'fishing' and having things that only master crafters have makes things easier as well. If you are going to play a MMORPG why not strive to be the best, wether or not you get there. As for you elistist guild...when guilds get that big its necessary to incoorperate things such as DKP or EPGP so that greed doesn't become a factor, people are less greedy when they know they are not gonna get gear unless they contribute to the raid.
Me yeah you can call me an Elitist I raided with some of the best and I got spoiled....it stopped being about wether or not we could do a raid but How fast we could do it.
I always strive to play my character to the best of its ability. Everyone I have played with could attest to that fact. However, greedy people that want to charge an arm and a leg for stuff that you can't afford does hinder that ability somewhat.
Thanks for the DKP thing, I was trying to remember what it was called and that was it.
Have you played other mmo's besides WoW? Tradeskills in most mmo's are a lot more involved than what it was in wow. Fishing was actually easy to get up. A little boring for those that are looking for fast paced action all the time but still easy none the less even on a pvp server. most tradeskills in wow are extremely easy to level and take little effort (there are some exceptions to that) compared to many other mmo's. And yet, even in wow, your still limited to how many tradeskills you can know. Which means that at some point you are going to have to rely on other crafters for stuff and thats when it goes down hill.
As for big guilds needing to put in a dkp system because of greed, I disagree with. My guild was doing great. the only people complaining was the guild leaders. Not because they didnt get the stuff they wanted, but because they felt that others should get their stuff first. The others were fine with how things were going but the guild leaders just couldnt get it through their thick heads that the rest of us was fine and that we actually enjoyed what we were doing and that they knew best for the rest of us. Thats the start of a greedy guild that will fall. Oh, and they did to.
So I can see where you comments are coming from, you do have an elitest attitude and thats totally cool and all, but you have to realize that the general population of mmo's are not that way and just want to enjoy their time in the virtual world before they have to come back out to the real world and dont want to have to deal with real world economics or politics in a video game. I can see why you would be opposed to the econimic system that I talked about, it could shorten your epeen stature in the game and most elitests dont like that.
Comments
I think the prices are steep...in both Lotro and WOW...AoC less so...but still. That's just the way it is. Buyers pay the money...so sellers keep raising to the point they stop paying...then shave it down a bit. Maximizing profits..or if it is a crafted item ...made from elements that are already overpriced...then you end up charging a ridiculous price just to break even. If you're lucky.
Sure wish it was a little more reasonable...those WOW purple enchants...like mongoose enchants on a pair of daggers...can cost 400-900 gold apiece depending on the day and seller. Wild. On the other hand...these sellers are putting all the farming effort towards attaining the reagents and recipe drops..or they themselves are forking out a lot of virtual dough. Saving you alot of grinding/time..except for gold grinding..which can be done alot easier now-a-days...so, in a way, they are entitled. I mostly solo and have never done a true raid...instances yes....but no major raids. So..I think of it more as a service fee or lazy tax. Again..that's the way it is...and I just try not to let it spoil the game. Just have fun.
Actually...I have done raid instances at lower levels...by myself...as far as I can go. Partially so I can see the content...and partially as a fun, albeit not too challenging way to farm decent BOE for my alts to use or disenchant and for other materials for professions, cloth for bandages, currency..etc...usually for my alts.
Thus why I state that the developers need to control the flow of money in their games, not the players!
EVE full of RMT going on with gold farmers, or isk farmers in this case. It's all about the ISK and RMT for Corps and rich players within corps. CCP profits most with RMT as they do it behind the scenes to get more money for the company.
For the record... yes there is a bot. Yes it is advanced. No, most people don't use it. Yes, gold farmers will bot to make money.
The real killer was the recently fixed base exploit. That ran for several months, possibly since the game went live. Several whole guilds were banned for it, which in turn wiped all their isk. However the full effect of wiping out isk like that normally takes 2-3 months. If you want to see a level playing field, you will have to wait till then.
Want money, without botting/exploiting? It's possible... it's boring... and people do it everyday. It's called farming.
Spitt
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here's something I did in WoW that shows a player driven economy working. The Northrend Darkmoon Faire Card(more specifically the nobles cards) were a hot commodity when most people were just hitting 80 so I farmed enough mats to make 2-3 cards and BLAM I got 2 nobles card so i check the AH the cheapest nobles card I had was in the AH for the INSANE price of 1800g I took this as my opportunity to exploit the Botters and I undercut them to the point where the Same card that cost 1800g was now being sold for only 200-300g. On top of making nearly 15,000 gold in only one night, I boosted the economy by buying all the herbs out of the AH and making cards, and guess what the Botter were forced to lower their prices to make any money and the herbs I had bought we nearly replinished the next day ready for me to do it again.
There are times when one must ask themselves is it my passion that truly frightens you? Or your own?
I have to partially disagree with this. yes to a point you are right but you are forgetting the greed that people have. Let me give you an example. In Vanguard, when people first started making boats, they were going for 25 gold at the time and let me tell you, Unless you were playing the buy em up and resell stuff at high prices gig, you as an adventurer was not any where near 25 gold at the time that you could actually use boats. So I talked to several crafters and found out what every component they needed was and I went out to gather them myself. It took me several days to get every item I needed so that the crafter wouldnt have to do anything but hit combine several times (It took about 30 minutes of combining to make the ship). Well, just in those few days it took me to gather the stuff I needed, Prices for ships had sored to almost 80 gold. I couldn't even get a person to make the ship when I furnished all the items! By that time, and this was just a couple days mind you, they wouldnt even combine them for less than 40 gold. 40 gold!!!! It would take me over 2 weeks to make that as an adventurer at that time. So, again, its not lazy players that drive economies to fail, its the greedy sob's that feel their time is worth 5 times more than everyone elses.
1 question.....what stopped you from creating your own.
That is a very good question. I had went up a different line in crafting at the time. But that was so that I could supply my own items for my character later down the road. I also recognize that there are people that play these games solely as crafters and never once (if the game allows for it) adventure anywhere. I have no problems trying to support my local crafters, after all that is what they like to do. But it is obvious that they are not doing it because they love to craft. they are doing it solely for getting stinking rich. I do blame them, but I blame the developers more for not being more controlling. To me, this is no different than when people take advantage of bugs to gain lots of money or levels. To me, its just a bug that developers have not fixed yet and hope that one day they do.
But to finish answering your question. I just lived without. As a matter of fact, all those items are still sitting in the bank on my deactivated account. Heck, I even made it into the 40's. I just refuse to play that type of game with crafters.
Okay, the OP is conflating at least three, probably four, different and not automatically related issues into one rant. Taking them apart and addressing them individually:
Player run economies are just that, player run. It is capitalism in a fairly pure form. The seller is under no real life pressure to produce or sell and the buyer is likewise not compelled to buy. Thus, exempting other factors, prices tend to stabilize at whatever the market will naturally bear. The buyer is choosing to pay the seller XX in game currency which pretty much just represents time invested. This is about as "fair" as it gets.
Market PvP and "Scams", now scamming someone with a false lead sale or other cleverness is a different matter. In some games like EVE, it is the accepted norm. In others, it may actually be against the operating company's TOS. Either way, it is really a case of "caveat emptor".
MUDFlation or MMOFlation is also nothing new, most MMOs lack adequate money sinks. (Meaning in basic terms, more money is steadily introduced to the game via drops and quest than is taken out through other means) This means that as an MMO ages, the money supply increases; it also tends to increasingly mimic real world distribution patterns of a few very very wealthy controlling lots of the cash. Various companies deal with this (or don't) in different ways.
Macroing/Cash farming/Botting: Again this is nothing new to the MMO world and basically boils down to the fact that at the most basic level, wealth in MMOs is derived from time played. Thus use of any unattended macro, bot, multiple accounts etc will increase a players wealth beyond what is "normal". Some games openly allow this to various degrees, EVE is one such in that it encourages multiple accounts while attempting to limit actual bots and macros; others try to ban it altogether. Either way, it is present in effectively every MMO.
Now none of this is anything new and should become pretty much obvious to anyone playing MMOs for any length of time. There are a number of ways to "cope".
1. Curb your greed and simply accept that you may not get all your "wants" from the economy. No one is forcing you to compete except your own ego.
2. Play smarter, better, more efficiently, network etc and out do them at their own game. Many people have made billions in EVE and joined the "elite" ranks of the very wealthy simply by being very very good at what they do. (Knew a guy in EQ1 who had 10s of thousands of platinum but had never been in a real dungeon, made it all buying and selling) Accept that not everyone doing better than you got there by cheating.
3. Can't beat 'em, join 'em. Employ the same methods when they are allowed or even the banned ones if you are willing to take the risks, just accept everything else that can come with it. (Bannings, hackings, keyloggings etc)
4. Lastly, if none of the above works for you - play some other kind of game
Edit: I should add that actual bugs and exploits are another matter and the company really should remove any cash generated from them or it helps wreck the economy; but not all companies care and some just designed totally dysfunctional economies from the start.
Sadly, most people tend to be greedy. I also don't like player focused economies, because it leaves non-crafters hostage to crafters. When we are dependent on them for potions, bandages, food and drink, equipment and so forth, it means we can't go and adventure whenever we want to, we have to schedule it around the time it takes to find someone to make them for you or to wait for them to finish the order. In other words, you are far too dependent on others in order to have a fun gaming experience.
It's all well and good for those who like to craft, who ARE in the minority, but not so good for adventurers. The whole process can be quite frustrating. I experienced this in early Dark Age of Camelot. This was before they started dropping decent equipment in dungeons and quests. Back then, all of the good equipment that gave you an edge in combat was crafter made. It was incredibly expensive and never available when you needed it and it completely removed one of the biggest incentives to adventuring, loot drops.
There were so many complaints about it that Mythic changed direction and started itemizing popular dungeons and quests with superior or on par equipment.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
so true
There are times when one must ask themselves is it my passion that truly frightens you? Or your own?
Good for you! but what I figure actually happened was that the botters bought up what you were selling at that low low price and then re pushed it back out at their prices. Sure, YOU made 15,000 gold in one night, and you helped out the herb farmers by buying up all their herbs but in the end here is what usually happens.
Botter buys up everything you put up and puts it back out there at his prices.
you bought all the herbs there was on the market.
The botter may or may not lower his prices right now
The herb farmers may or may not see that everything is going as quickly as they put them up so it might take them a few days but they eventually start pushing up the prices on their herbs.
You end up having to raise your prices on the cards because the mats were are getting to expensive.
and then rinse and repeat and eventually the price for those cards are back up to or near the botters prices.
In the end, you get rich, the botter gets rich and the herb farmers get a nice boost to their money but in the end, the general public will still not be able to afford said items.
People who play the auction house (as long as they are dedicated to it) will make a fortune. Just look at my eq2 reference to understand how it can be done. It takes dedication but the greedy are already full of that.
if you don't craft in an MMORPG then you are SERIOUSLY hindering yourself
There are times when one must ask themselves is it my passion that truly frightens you? Or your own?
Isk in EVE is easy to come by once you get the hang of the game. I make 700 mill a day running complexes in 0.0 and thats only from a few hours work. I got people in my alliances that make billions passivaly from manufacturing and other lesser known methods.
if you don't craft in an MMORPG then you are SERIOUSLY hindering yourself
Why would I want to do something that I don't enjoy? Why would I even want to play a game that forces me to depend on one single method of acquisition? I didn't even finish out the first month of DAoC, but I came back and really enjoyed the game when they implemented worthwhile loot drops. The same with SWG, hated it in the beginning, liked it when they implemented usable loot drops just before the combat upgrade. Most people find crafting beyond boring and are not masochistic enough to do it just to keep from hindering ourselves.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Good for you! but what I figure actually happened was that the botters bought up what you were selling at that low low price and then re pushed it back out at their prices. Sure, YOU made 15,000 gold in one night, and you helped out the herb farmers by buying up all their herbs but in the end here is what usually happens.
Botter buys up everything you put up and puts it back out there at his prices.
you bought all the herbs there was on the market.
The botter may or may not lower his prices right now
The herb farmers may or may not see that everything is going as quickly as they put them up so it might take them a few days but they eventually start pushing up the prices on their herbs.
You end up having to raise your prices on the cards because the mats were are getting to expensive.
and then rinse and repeat and eventually the price for those cards are back up to or near the botters prices.
In the end, you get rich, the botter gets rich and the herb farmers get a nice boost to their money but in the end, the general public will still not be able to afford said items.
People who play the auction house (as long as they are dedicated to it) will make a fortune. Just look at my eq2 reference to understand how it can be done. It takes dedication but the greedy are already full of that.
Actually I pushed helped to push the prices waaay down.....besides if they took out the Auction Houses what is gonna stop player from simply opening a TRADE WINDOW also without AH's and player ran economies the Lazy player will have to actually PLAY the game for what they want. Its gonna happen regulated or not....like I said before LAZY PLAYERS RUIN THE ECONOMY
There are times when one must ask themselves is it my passion that truly frightens you? Or your own?
if you don't craft in an MMORPG then you are SERIOUSLY hindering yourself
Why would I want to do something that I don't enjoy? Why would I even want to play a game that forces me to depend on one single method of acquisition? I didn't even finish out the first month of DAoC, but I came back and really enjoyed the game when they implemented worthwhile loot drops. The same with SWG, hated it in the beginning, liked it when they implemented usable loot drops just before the combat upgrade. Most people find crafting beyond boring and are not masochistic enough to do it just to keep from hindering ourselves.
Well WoW for example gave you stats and new spells and abilites for grinding your trade skills on-top of items that you can only use if you have a certain trade skill
There are times when one must ask themselves is it my passion that truly frightens you? Or your own?
if you don't craft in an MMORPG then you are SERIOUSLY hindering yourself
QFT! However, in most games you can only go up one or two lines in crafting. Which still puts you at the mercy of the rest of the crafters out there. Thus why when I play an MMO, I always take crafting for the line thats going to help my character along. I.E. making my own weapons or armor. But I dont do it to get rich, I do it so that I have the items that I need most while I level. Personally I hate crafting with a passion. I am an adventurer, not a warez dealer.Thus why I have never been rich in any mmo that I have ever played. I refuse to play real world econmics in a video game.
Good for you! but what I figure actually happened was that the botters bought up what you were selling at that low low price and then re pushed it back out at their prices. Sure, YOU made 15,000 gold in one night, and you helped out the herb farmers by buying up all their herbs but in the end here is what usually happens.
Botter buys up everything you put up and puts it back out there at his prices.
you bought all the herbs there was on the market.
The botter may or may not lower his prices right now
The herb farmers may or may not see that everything is going as quickly as they put them up so it might take them a few days but they eventually start pushing up the prices on their herbs.
You end up having to raise your prices on the cards because the mats were are getting to expensive.
and then rinse and repeat and eventually the price for those cards are back up to or near the botters prices.
In the end, you get rich, the botter gets rich and the herb farmers get a nice boost to their money but in the end, the general public will still not be able to afford said items.
People who play the auction house (as long as they are dedicated to it) will make a fortune. Just look at my eq2 reference to understand how it can be done. It takes dedication but the greedy are already full of that.
Actually I pushed helped to push the prices waaay down.....besides if they took out the Auction Houses what is gonna stop player from simply opening a TRADE WINDOW also without AH's and player ran economies the Lazy player will have to actually PLAY the game for what they want. Its gonna happen regulated or not....like I said before LAZY PLAYERS RUIN THE ECONOMY
Actually two things can stop every bit of that in its tracks!
1. No player trading allowed.
2. Only selling via an auction house or vendor allows the developers to control pricing as they can set a min/max on every single item in the game.
Bonus's to the above 2.
3. This also stops players from pumping up their lower level characters. Which I am actually partial to but willing to give it up if it means we are not price gouged at every corner.
4. This virtually eliminates gold farmers. if they cant trade with you, you cant buy their money and they cant make money. They will not play a game where they cant make money.
Good for you! but what I figure actually happened was that the botters bought up what you were selling at that low low price and then re pushed it back out at their prices. Sure, YOU made 15,000 gold in one night, and you helped out the herb farmers by buying up all their herbs but in the end here is what usually happens.
Botter buys up everything you put up and puts it back out there at his prices.
you bought all the herbs there was on the market.
The botter may or may not lower his prices right now
The herb farmers may or may not see that everything is going as quickly as they put them up so it might take them a few days but they eventually start pushing up the prices on their herbs.
You end up having to raise your prices on the cards because the mats were are getting to expensive.
and then rinse and repeat and eventually the price for those cards are back up to or near the botters prices.
In the end, you get rich, the botter gets rich and the herb farmers get a nice boost to their money but in the end, the general public will still not be able to afford said items.
People who play the auction house (as long as they are dedicated to it) will make a fortune. Just look at my eq2 reference to understand how it can be done. It takes dedication but the greedy are already full of that.
Actually I pushed helped to push the prices waaay down.....besides if they took out the Auction Houses what is gonna stop player from simply opening a TRADE WINDOW also without AH's and player ran economies the Lazy player will have to actually PLAY the game for what they want. Its gonna happen regulated or not....like I said before LAZY PLAYERS RUIN THE ECONOMY
Actually two things can stop every bit of that in its tracks!
1. No player trading allowed.
2. Only selling via an auction house or vendor allows the developers to control pricing as they can set a min/max on every single item in the game.
Bonus's to the above 2.
3. This also stops players from pumping up their lower level characters. Which I am actually partial to but willing to give it up if it means we are not price gouged at every corner.
4. This virtually eliminates gold farmers. if they cant trade with you, you cant buy their money and they cant make money. They will not play a game where they cant make money.
I don't know of anyone that will play a game where they can't trade with fellow players outside an AH
There are times when one must ask themselves is it my passion that truly frightens you? Or your own?
I only read the last page of the posts so far but seeing as how I just logged out of Eve-Online I would like to point out that a player based economy can work extremely well. It just might not be possible if based around the WoW style gaming system. At no point do I feel at the mercy of anyone else for something in game while at the same time, the rare items that can't be built butonly dropped as loot or reward maintains high value through the contracts system.
While I am an obvious lover of the game I merely mean to use this as an example that a player run/based/focused economy can work very well, not that is is necessarily transferrable to other games or for that matter, perfect.
Straight up quit QQ'ing. If you get ripped off then that means your just not playing right... its not all from hacks and cheats, its either a huge amount of time invested or they just time manage better then you do. Maybe look at your game plan again before goin out and grinding uselss mobs for couple hours..all about strategy
I cant compete with people running macros that farm ISK (ingame currency in EVE) 24/7. I just cant. There is no way. These macros have gotten so advanced they scan your video buffer and totally automate the game for you
They even pvp for you essentially or rather- automate evasion.
No human can compete with this. Not unless I become hella great at Trading overnight?
This happens with many MMORPG, my experiance with it was in SWG, but need to be clear it did not bother me cause I choose my own playstyle, and Mastered almost every profession, where crafting was my main thing.
The only thing that bothered me was the hate mails I was getting cause some greedy kids felt my prices where to low, where I played the game so that every new person entering the game would have a fair change at buying lowby items, I mean people where selling simply speeders for 40k/50/75k, where I sold my speeders 12k,50, but then again when I made my shops my shops/vendors had all type of things, meaning when I ?Mastered DE, you could find any type of droid, any type of engineerd item, droids came in many lvl's, for example you could buy a lvl 10 Droideka, but also could buy a lvl 60 and several lvl's in between. This was when I returned to SWG back in 2007 for about 8 months.
I want and always want to be their for the community and not for the greed. The greed people will get bordered eventually, the amount of times I heard people complain they not selling well, and when looking at what they sell and at what prices it wasn't suprising some people didn't sell well as it's their own fault to play the greed game instead of the community game.
What you need to understand is that YOU DO NOT NEED TO COMPETE with them, cause lets face they not compete with YOU thats the reason why people are lazy or use macro's or cheats. And nope not used one macro in SWG other then a chat-spam macro, that when I clicked my macro all you would see me do is YELL a message where people could find my shop(s) and the type of items they could find at my shops, which I used 1 time when traveling from SP to SP. I mean why would anyone wanna compete with those who simply don't really want to play a game? Oh another thing before someone might get the wrong idea here about me, as I am not able to spend much time with this genre and the things I do always take allot of time, meaning where some 24/7 player might gain 5 lvl's with a few day's, it could take me sometimes some weeks before I gained a lvl or more lvl's. But thats the beauty of MMORPG as they are not jobs which means why would I rush/cheat or use macro's, not that I would use it in RL, but seriously I never understood the use of macro's or cheats with games.
Good for you! but what I figure actually happened was that the botters bought up what you were selling at that low low price and then re pushed it back out at their prices. Sure, YOU made 15,000 gold in one night, and you helped out the herb farmers by buying up all their herbs but in the end here is what usually happens.
Botter buys up everything you put up and puts it back out there at his prices.
you bought all the herbs there was on the market.
The botter may or may not lower his prices right now
The herb farmers may or may not see that everything is going as quickly as they put them up so it might take them a few days but they eventually start pushing up the prices on their herbs.
You end up having to raise your prices on the cards because the mats were are getting to expensive.
and then rinse and repeat and eventually the price for those cards are back up to or near the botters prices.
In the end, you get rich, the botter gets rich and the herb farmers get a nice boost to their money but in the end, the general public will still not be able to afford said items.
People who play the auction house (as long as they are dedicated to it) will make a fortune. Just look at my eq2 reference to understand how it can be done. It takes dedication but the greedy are already full of that.
Actually I pushed helped to push the prices waaay down.....besides if they took out the Auction Houses what is gonna stop player from simply opening a TRADE WINDOW also without AH's and player ran economies the Lazy player will have to actually PLAY the game for what they want. Its gonna happen regulated or not....like I said before LAZY PLAYERS RUIN THE ECONOMY
Actually two things can stop every bit of that in its tracks!
1. No player trading allowed.
2. Only selling via an auction house or vendor allows the developers to control pricing as they can set a min/max on every single item in the game.
Bonus's to the above 2.
3. This also stops players from pumping up their lower level characters. Which I am actually partial to but willing to give it up if it means we are not price gouged at every corner.
4. This virtually eliminates gold farmers. if they cant trade with you, you cant buy their money and they cant make money. They will not play a game where they cant make money.
I don't know of anyone that will play a game where they can't trade with fellow players outside an AH
And why not? You still group with your fellow players,They still get cool items in game, they can still show them off, they can still sell them, they simply cant trade them.
You know why gold sellers can not be gotten rid of? Its because no matter how hard the devs try, they cant police everything. let me rephrase that. Most companies are not willing or not able to afford to spend enough money to keep people on 24/7 just to get rid of the spammer selling gold in the level 1 area or level 20 area or so on. Take a look at DDO. Gold in that game was extremely easy to come by. All you had to do was play the game and you would have enough gold. If you put items on the vendors, they paid you for the item and turned around and resold your item for what the vendors thought they were worth. They were soooo close! But they allowed player trading and eventually put in the auction house. Gold farmers are rampant in that game to. A place were gold was easy to come by and you could buy anything you needed for your character off the vendors, ruined by the auction house and player trading.
People complain like mad to the game companies over gold farmers. No player trading COUPLED with an auction house that sets a min/max worth on all items will completely eliminate gold farmers. Adventurers can still adventure, crafters can still craft (They just cant get super rich anymore), Inflation is gone, price gouging is gone, gold farmers are gone. How could you not want to play that game?
Good for you! but what I figure actually happened was that the botters bought up what you were selling at that low low price and then re pushed it back out at their prices. Sure, YOU made 15,000 gold in one night, and you helped out the herb farmers by buying up all their herbs but in the end here is what usually happens.
Botter buys up everything you put up and puts it back out there at his prices.
you bought all the herbs there was on the market.
The botter may or may not lower his prices right now
The herb farmers may or may not see that everything is going as quickly as they put them up so it might take them a few days but they eventually start pushing up the prices on their herbs.
You end up having to raise your prices on the cards because the mats were are getting to expensive.
and then rinse and repeat and eventually the price for those cards are back up to or near the botters prices.
In the end, you get rich, the botter gets rich and the herb farmers get a nice boost to their money but in the end, the general public will still not be able to afford said items.
People who play the auction house (as long as they are dedicated to it) will make a fortune. Just look at my eq2 reference to understand how it can be done. It takes dedication but the greedy are already full of that.
Actually I pushed helped to push the prices waaay down.....besides if they took out the Auction Houses what is gonna stop player from simply opening a TRADE WINDOW also without AH's and player ran economies the Lazy player will have to actually PLAY the game for what they want. Its gonna happen regulated or not....like I said before LAZY PLAYERS RUIN THE ECONOMY
Actually two things can stop every bit of that in its tracks!
1. No player trading allowed.
2. Only selling via an auction house or vendor allows the developers to control pricing as they can set a min/max on every single item in the game.
Bonus's to the above 2.
3. This also stops players from pumping up their lower level characters. Which I am actually partial to but willing to give it up if it means we are not price gouged at every corner.
4. This virtually eliminates gold farmers. if they cant trade with you, you cant buy their money and they cant make money. They will not play a game where they cant make money.
I don't know of anyone that will play a game where they can't trade with fellow players outside an AH
And why not? You still group with your fellow players,They still get cool items in game, they can still show them off, they can still sell them, they simply cant trade them.
You know why gold sellers can not be gotten rid of? Its because no matter how hard the devs try, they cant police everything. let me rephrase that. Most companies are not willing or not able to afford to spend enough money to keep people on 24/7 just to get rid of the spammer selling gold in the level 1 area or level 20 area or so on. Take a look at DDO. Gold in that game was extremely easy to come by. All you had to do was play the game and you would have enough gold. If you put items on the vendors, they paid you for the item and turned around and resold your item for what the vendors thought they were worth. They were soooo close! But they allowed player trading and eventually put in the auction house. Gold farmers are rampant in that game to. A place were gold was easy to come by and you could buy anything you needed for your character off the vendors, ruined by the auction house and player trading.
People complain like mad to the game companies over gold farmers. No player trading COUPLED with an auction house that sets a min/max worth on all items will completely eliminate gold farmers. Adventurers can still adventure, crafters can still craft (They just cant get super rich anymore), Inflation is gone, price gouging is gone, gold farmers are gone. How could you not want to play that game?
Its a loss of freedom. Gold Farmers only exist because people refuse to do things the EASY way. If you level your trade skills as you level you don't have to spend much more time than you would have leveling your toon and with up-to-date trades you have current gear and more money than you know what to do with. And those pesky Gold farmers go on your ignore list so you don't have to deal with them. I am trying to see you point but I am hearing is, "I don't like to level my trade skills so punish the rest of the gaming community." btw in WoW most 'adventuring' PVE guilds won't even consider you without max trades. And thats another with a guild you don't have to level every trade skill just one or two and then contribute to the guild and they will contribute back. and the way you described your perfect economy system it sounds alot like communism.
There are times when one must ask themselves is it my passion that truly frightens you? Or your own?
Good for you! but what I figure actually happened was that the botters bought up what you were selling at that low low price and then re pushed it back out at their prices. Sure, YOU made 15,000 gold in one night, and you helped out the herb farmers by buying up all their herbs but in the end here is what usually happens.
Botter buys up everything you put up and puts it back out there at his prices.
you bought all the herbs there was on the market.
The botter may or may not lower his prices right now
The herb farmers may or may not see that everything is going as quickly as they put them up so it might take them a few days but they eventually start pushing up the prices on their herbs.
You end up having to raise your prices on the cards because the mats were are getting to expensive.
and then rinse and repeat and eventually the price for those cards are back up to or near the botters prices.
In the end, you get rich, the botter gets rich and the herb farmers get a nice boost to their money but in the end, the general public will still not be able to afford said items.
People who play the auction house (as long as they are dedicated to it) will make a fortune. Just look at my eq2 reference to understand how it can be done. It takes dedication but the greedy are already full of that.
Actually I pushed helped to push the prices waaay down.....besides if they took out the Auction Houses what is gonna stop player from simply opening a TRADE WINDOW also without AH's and player ran economies the Lazy player will have to actually PLAY the game for what they want. Its gonna happen regulated or not....like I said before LAZY PLAYERS RUIN THE ECONOMY
Actually two things can stop every bit of that in its tracks!
1. No player trading allowed.
2. Only selling via an auction house or vendor allows the developers to control pricing as they can set a min/max on every single item in the game.
Bonus's to the above 2.
3. This also stops players from pumping up their lower level characters. Which I am actually partial to but willing to give it up if it means we are not price gouged at every corner.
4. This virtually eliminates gold farmers. if they cant trade with you, you cant buy their money and they cant make money. They will not play a game where they cant make money.
I don't know of anyone that will play a game where they can't trade with fellow players outside an AH
And why not? You still group with your fellow players,They still get cool items in game, they can still show them off, they can still sell them, they simply cant trade them.
You know why gold sellers can not be gotten rid of? Its because no matter how hard the devs try, they cant police everything. let me rephrase that. Most companies are not willing or not able to afford to spend enough money to keep people on 24/7 just to get rid of the spammer selling gold in the level 1 area or level 20 area or so on. Take a look at DDO. Gold in that game was extremely easy to come by. All you had to do was play the game and you would have enough gold. If you put items on the vendors, they paid you for the item and turned around and resold your item for what the vendors thought they were worth. They were soooo close! But they allowed player trading and eventually put in the auction house. Gold farmers are rampant in that game to. A place were gold was easy to come by and you could buy anything you needed for your character off the vendors, ruined by the auction house and player trading.
People complain like mad to the game companies over gold farmers. No player trading COUPLED with an auction house that sets a min/max worth on all items will completely eliminate gold farmers. Adventurers can still adventure, crafters can still craft (They just cant get super rich anymore), Inflation is gone, price gouging is gone, gold farmers are gone. How could you not want to play that game?
Its a loss of freedom. Gold Farmers only exist because people refuse to do things the EASY way. If you level your trade skills as you level you don't have to spend much more time than you would have leveling your toon and with up-to-date trades you have current gear and more money than you know what to do with. And those pesky Gold farmers go on your ignore list so you don't have to deal with them. I am trying to see you point but I am hearing is, "I don't like to level my trade skills so punish the rest of the gaming community." btw in WoW most 'adventuring' PVE guilds won't even consider you without max trades. And thats another with a guild you don't have to level every trade skill just one or two and then contribute to the guild and they will contribute back. and the way you described your perfect economy system it sounds alot like communism.
We are talking about a video game here, not real world economics. Sure in the real world it would be close to communism But in a video game it is entirely something else. Gold farmers are ALWAYS going to exist with the current economies in video games. Why? You said it earlier, people are lazy. There are people that will only play a video game once they have bought a maxed out character. They say they only like the end game content and dont wish to participate in the earlier stuff.
People on this board alone have been begging for something different from MMO's. They want innovation, but people in general are usually afraid of change. You say your losing a freedom because you cant trade with another person. What are you really losing here? You can still sell everything in the game, you simply cant trade it and cant be greedy. So what you really lose is people cant be ass's when it comes to being greedy. You play WoW, Can you hop in a rocket ship and fly into space? Of course not, its not in the game. maybe you want to fly in space, does that mean your freedom has been lost? No, It is just a limitation to the game. Same with the economy that I am talking about.
As for guilds, this is why I chose my guilds carefully. I do not go for power guilds, I do not go for elitest guilds. If an adventureing guild in wow wont except you because of trade skills, they are an elitest guild and I wouldnt want to play with them anyway. My last guild in WoW started out as a great guild. Just a bunch of folks that played together and had fun. We eventually grew into a very powerfull guild that was starting to raid almost everything that WoW had to offer back then. Greed started creeping into the higher ups (meaning the guild leaders) and I saw it coming. I and many others in the guild tried to squash it because this was not an elitest type guild, it was a guild of people that was almost like family. However, they grew to big to quickly and fell to the greed monster. All of a sudden, they wanted to implement a Raid loot distribution system (Diku type if I remember it correctly). I have always been a big believer of, if you are on the raid and you need said item, you get to roll on it plain and simple. I have never liked those Diku type systems as it breeds even more greed and more hate throughout the guild until it usually destroys the guild in the process. Sure you might end up being the top raiding guild for a short time, but it rarely ever lasts. Guilds are like families and when you start letting greed take over, it destroys everything.
Its not being elistist to require someone to be complete in order to join in end game content its called being ready, First Aid is a must.....because you can do it in combat and it allows healers to save mana instead of healing you also there are bosses that can't be encountered without building up the most annoying WoW tradeskill 'fishing' and having things that only master crafters have makes things easier as well. If you are going to play a MMORPG why not strive to be the best, wether or not you get there.
As for you elistist guild...when guilds get that big its necessary to incoorperate things such as DKP or EPGP so that greed doesn't become a factor, people are less greedy when they know they are not gonna get gear unless they contribute to the raid.
Me yeah you can call me an Elitist I raided with some of the best and I got spoiled....it stopped being about wether or not we could do a raid but How fast we could do it.
There are times when one must ask themselves is it my passion that truly frightens you? Or your own?
I always strive to play my character to the best of its ability. Everyone I have played with could attest to that fact. However, greedy people that want to charge an arm and a leg for stuff that you can't afford does hinder that ability somewhat.
Thanks for the DKP thing, I was trying to remember what it was called and that was it.
Have you played other mmo's besides WoW? Tradeskills in most mmo's are a lot more involved than what it was in wow. Fishing was actually easy to get up. A little boring for those that are looking for fast paced action all the time but still easy none the less even on a pvp server. most tradeskills in wow are extremely easy to level and take little effort (there are some exceptions to that) compared to many other mmo's. And yet, even in wow, your still limited to how many tradeskills you can know. Which means that at some point you are going to have to rely on other crafters for stuff and thats when it goes down hill.
As for big guilds needing to put in a dkp system because of greed, I disagree with. My guild was doing great. the only people complaining was the guild leaders. Not because they didnt get the stuff they wanted, but because they felt that others should get their stuff first. The others were fine with how things were going but the guild leaders just couldnt get it through their thick heads that the rest of us was fine and that we actually enjoyed what we were doing and that they knew best for the rest of us. Thats the start of a greedy guild that will fall. Oh, and they did to.
So I can see where you comments are coming from, you do have an elitest attitude and thats totally cool and all, but you have to realize that the general population of mmo's are not that way and just want to enjoy their time in the virtual world before they have to come back out to the real world and dont want to have to deal with real world economics or politics in a video game. I can see why you would be opposed to the econimic system that I talked about, it could shorten your epeen stature in the game and most elitests dont like that.