In single player RPGS like final fantasy etc, I play them for the grouping aspect working with a team, thats a major part that makes a RPG fun. if it was just a single character hacking through everything it would pretty much be an Action game. I want a mmoRPG not a single player experience.
In single player RPGS like final fantasy etc, I play them for the grouping aspect working with a team, thats a major part that makes a RPG fun. if it was just a single character hacking through everything it would pretty much be an Action game. I want a mmoRPG not a single player experience.
Whats the difference you still have to hack through everything..In a group or not.. As you say.. it still a Action game.But if you sux in a group you will then be kicked..This bring you back to solo..
Some people rob you at gun point..Others will rob you at "Ball Point Pen"
In single player RPGS like final fantasy etc, I play them for the grouping aspect working with a team, thats a major part that makes a RPG fun. if it was just a single character hacking through everything it would pretty much be an Action game. I want a mmoRPG not a single player experience.
Whats the difference you still have to hack through everything..In a group or not.. As you say.. it still a Action game.But if you sux in a group you will then be kicked..This bring you back to solo..
The difference should be obvious. In a well made grouping game, grouping requires cooperation and coordination. Solo does not.
In a poorly made grouping game, grouping also doesn't require coooperation or coordination. Everyone in the group just wacks the mob as if they were playing solo.
The question could also be "Why play MMOs, if you only want to solo?"
I think both play styles are valid and mixture is probably better than the either-or.
However, I do not think MMOs do enough these days to reward group play. They seem to prefer to reward individual efforts. This is something that could be improved upon.
Grouping should have a clear advantage over solo play. As soloing is something that everyone can do, it simply should be less rewarding. This does not mean that solo play should be pointless, far from it.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
Originally posted by Ihmotepp I think this is a bit of a conundrum. Solo players often complain that people are asshats, which is why they don't like to group. But, single player type games are what allows people to be asshats. In a good grouping game like EQ or DAoC, people tend to broadcast to the server that you suck if you're an asshat in a group, and then people won't group with you, which means you're screwed. In that situation, surprisingly, people tend to behave themselves more often because they learn quickly that being an ass actually has consequences.
Have you ever been a member of, for example, a raiding guild in a solo friendly game?
It's a forced-grouping mechanic and it isn't exactly populated by the most pleasant of people; in fact it seems to have exactly the opposite effect that you're describing. People tend to join up to the raiding community to get uber gear so that they can be asshats to the non-raiding community (i.e. the soloers).
I was talking about grouping, not raiding.
Group = 2 or more players up to a full party, typically 6-10.
Raid = more than one full party.
IMO, the dynamic change from group to raid. I don't care for raiding, but I do enjoy grouping.
Hmm, so your viewpoint is that solo play breeds asshats, raiding breeds asshats, but small group content doesn't? Sorry, but I just don't agree with your logic on this one.
I believe that in situations where you are reliant on other people in order to progress (i.e. forced grouping or raiding) you are always going to encounter drama. Two players will fall out, each will have people within the guild/community that takes their side of the argument and asshattery will abound.
Sadly, I think the one universal truth is that wherever people interact with one another in any way, shape or form you will find asshats.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
The question could also be "Why play MMOs, if you only want to solo?" I think both play styles are valid and mixture is probably better than the either-or. However, I do not think MMOs do enough these days to reward group play. They seem to prefer to reward individual efforts. This is something that could be improved upon. Grouping should have a clear advantage over solo play. As soloing is something that everyone can do, it simply should be less rewarding. This does not mean that solo play should be pointless, far from it.
Scroll up to post #12 where I discussed the group advantage over solo play. Or do you think that advancing 30% faster than everyone else isn't enough of a rewad?
The question could also be "Why play MMOs, if you only want to solo?" I think both play styles are valid and mixture is probably better than the either-or. However, I do not think MMOs do enough these days to reward group play. They seem to prefer to reward individual efforts. This is something that could be improved upon. Grouping should have a clear advantage over solo play. As soloing is something that everyone can do, it simply should be less rewarding. This does not mean that solo play should be pointless, far from it.
Scroll up to post #12 where I discussed the group advantage over solo play. Or do you think that advancing 30% faster than everyone else isn't enough of a rewad?
I have a difference of opinion. To me anything with the word multiplayer means interacting with other players. Interacting ,to me, means working together with other players for a common goal, not just chit-chat. In a FPS, you can be on the same server as 32 other players. There is a common goal. Whether you choose to participate in it or not is your choice, but the game does not change. Players are still going to kill you in a deathmatch, and teams are still going to try to capture the flag.
In an MMORPG, when you choose not to participate, you are taking an active stance against the community, putting individual desires above the good of the whole. I realize loners pay the same subscription fees in an MMORPG and therefore feel entitled to spend thier time however they wish, but it is my opinion that you are missing the entire reason for playing an MMORPG in the first place. I can definitely understand the loner point of view in todays games as the only real goal seems to be loot rewards and max level. It used to be fun and challenging to be able to put aside your differences for a greater purpose. That purpose has largely disappeared unfortunately.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Originally posted by Ihmotepp I think this is a bit of a conundrum. Solo players often complain that people are asshats, which is why they don't like to group. But, single player type games are what allows people to be asshats. In a good grouping game like EQ or DAoC, people tend to broadcast to the server that you suck if you're an asshat in a group, and then people won't group with you, which means you're screwed. In that situation, surprisingly, people tend to behave themselves more often because they learn quickly that being an ass actually has consequences.
Have you ever been a member of, for example, a raiding guild in a solo friendly game?
It's a forced-grouping mechanic and it isn't exactly populated by the most pleasant of people; in fact it seems to have exactly the opposite effect that you're describing. People tend to join up to the raiding community to get uber gear so that they can be asshats to the non-raiding community (i.e. the soloers).
Put on your tinfoil hat, the raider's are totally out to get you (and I mean you in particular). They want to feast on your souls.
Fact is soloing promotes mememeism, why be nice to others if you wont ever need anyone's help?
The world's most popular mmo proves this. What was WOW's number one complaint in the first year? Shittiest community on the internet (yes worse then 4chan imo). Being that WOW was the first mainstream "casual/solo friendly" MMO, one could conclude that the solo friendly factor of this was the cause of the decline in community quality (well that and the bnet kiddies).
I have a difference of opinion. To me anything with the word multiplayer means interacting with other players. Interacting ,to me, means working together with other players for a common goal, not just chit-chat. In a FPS, you can be on the same server as 32 other players. There is a common goal. Whether you choose to participate in it or not is your choice, but the game does not change. Players are still going to kill you in a deathmatch, and teams are still going to try to capture the flag.
In an MMORPG, when you choose not to participate, you are taking an active stance against the community, putting individual desires above the good of the whole. I realize loners pay the same subscription fees in an MMORPG and therefore feel entitled to spend thier time however they wish, but it is my opinion that you are missing the entire reason for playing an MMORPG in the first place. I can definitely understand the loner point of view in todays games as the only real goal seems to be loot rewards and max level. It used to be fun and challenging to be able to put aside your differences for a greater purpose. That purpose has largely disappeared unfortunately.
Well that is your opinion and you are entitled to have it. I think most groupers are far worse - caring only about themselves and if they get what they want and not caring about anyone else in the group. Experience with the typical grouper is why I prefer to solo while I can. This is my opinion and I am just as entitled to it as you are. I feel that the main reason a lot of people do not like to group is because of the actions and attitudes of those who insist on grouping so that their needs are met.
Originally posted by protoroc Put on your tinfoil hat, the raider's are totally out to get you (and I mean you in particular). They want to feast on your souls. I was a raider for 4 years, I was speaking from experience. The reason that I quit my raid guild was in disgust at what level of asshattery that they had sunk to. Fact is soloing promotes mememeism, why be nice to others if you wont ever need anyone's help? The world's most popular mmo proves this. What was WOW's number one complaint in the first year? Shittiest community on the internet (yes worse then 4chan imo). Being that WOW was the first mainstream "casual/solo friendly" MMO, one could conclude that the solo friendly factor of this was the cause of the decline in community quality (well that and the bnet kiddies). Cite your source. The complaint I heard most during the first year was the lack of non-raid "casual" progression, which was apparently also heard by someone at Blizzard as evidenced by the eventualy inclusion of 20 man raids, PVP epics, shift to 10/25 raid size, heroic dungeons, crafting/rep epics.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
I have a difference of opinion. To me anything with the word multiplayer means interacting with other players. Interacting ,to me, means working together with other players for a common goal, not just chit-chat. In a FPS, you can be on the same server as 32 other players. There is a common goal. Whether you choose to participate in it or not is your choice, but the game does not change. Players are still going to kill you in a deathmatch, and teams are still going to try to capture the flag.
In an MMORPG, when you choose not to participate, you are taking an active stance against the community, putting individual desires above the good of the whole. I realize loners pay the same subscription fees in an MMORPG and therefore feel entitled to spend thier time however they wish, but it is my opinion that you are missing the entire reason for playing an MMORPG in the first place. I can definitely understand the loner point of view in todays games as the only real goal seems to be loot rewards and max level. It used to be fun and challenging to be able to put aside your differences for a greater purpose. That purpose has largely disappeared unfortunately.
It's humorous that the argument by the grouping crowd is entirely focused on XP, forcing people together and grinding and then they'll serve up a post like this where they will again, with complete disregard for the hundreds of replies to the contrary, insist that people who level solo are anti-social. This post goes as far as to say that if you don't group with them then you are "you are taking an active stance against the community, putting individual desires above the good of the whole." The irony of that is beautiful.
The players that want to force grouping are concerned only with themselves. They want to force other players to cater to their specific wants and desires. Worse, they are the first to castigate others for losing sight of what an MMO should be, when they consistently and ardently insist that forced grouping, loot and levelling are the most important aspects of an MMO. They cannot and, worse, refuse to accept that interaction and grouping are not the same thing. While the solo stance is "you play your way, I'll play mine," the forced grouping crowd will not be happy until everyone is either forced to play their way or punished severely for not doing so.
Every thread goes the same way. The forced grouping crowd will always argue the same points, despite how many times their falsehoods are corrected.
- Interaction and grouping are not the same thing
- A person can contribute to the game community in forms other than DKP and knowing their role.
- Solo play does not mean anti-social play.
Read it. Write it down if you have to. But, for fuck's sake, stop bringing the same tired and completely false arguments out every damn thread.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Here's waht makes grouping fun for me. Take away any of these aspects, and you take away the fun in grouping.
1. Team work. This means you must work together, and when you do, the sum of the parts is greater than the whole. If each person in the group is attacking the Mob as if they were solo, this is not team work IMO, and is not fun, and does not make for a good grouping game.
2. A challenge that cannot be avoided, which requires team work. There needs to be some point to working as a team. Just for shits and giggles is not really a point, not a reason to work for a team, not satisfying in a game.
WHY, WHY, WHY are you working as a team? Because there is a challenge that requires team work to over come. The satisfaction is in overcoming this challenge as a team.
When is it no longer a challenge? When it can be avoided. You can simply go around it, use an alternative route. For example, I COULD group and do this dungeon, however, I can avoid it by doing an alternative solo dungoen. Challenge no longer relevant, grouping no longer fun.
I COULD group and do this dungeon. However, it scales. If I go in solo, it will get easier so I can win. Challenge no longer relevant, grouping no longer fun.
Here is what is NOT important to me as a player that likes grouping:
Forcing you to group with me. If you don't like a challenge that requires team work to over come, I don't want to play the game with you, I don't want to make you group with me.
Showing off my gear to solo players. I don't care about gear, except that it is a measure of content, and provides a progression path.
A storm trooper is easier to kill than Darth Vader or a Krayt Dragon. Levels, skill levels, and gear, are what make that progression work. That is the purpose of gear, what makes loot fun to get, not showing off to you.
Every thread goes the same way. The forced grouping crowd will always argue the same points, despite how many times their falsehoods are corrected. - Interaction and grouping are not the same thing
- A person can contribute to the game community in forms other than DKP and knowing their role.
- Solo play does not mean anti-social play.
Read it. Write it down if you have to. But, for fuck's sake, stop bringing the same tired and completely false arguments out every damn thread.
I agree with all your points, and assert a few of my own.
Solo players will not acknowledge that grouping for no reason is not fun, while at the same time admitting that grouping is not necessary for socialization.
Ok, if you don't need to group to socialize, which we both agree on, then why do you need to group?
If there is absolutely no need to group, then what's supposed to make it fun?'
Again, we've already stated it's NOT socialization, because grouping is not required to socialize.
The reason grouping is fun, is because it requires team work to over come a challenge.
A challenge that can be avoided, is not a real challenge.
When you add in alternatives to group challenges that require team work, you have removed the challenge for the group player, and therefore the fun, the REASON for grouping.
Why would you group if there is no reason for it?
The reason cannot be socializing, because we have already agreed this can be done playing solo.
Every thread goes the same way. The forced grouping crowd will always argue the same points, despite how many times their falsehoods are corrected. - Interaction and grouping are not the same thing
- A person can contribute to the game community in forms other than DKP and knowing their role.
- Solo play does not mean anti-social play.
Read it. Write it down if you have to. But, for fuck's sake, stop bringing the same tired and completely false arguments out every damn thread.
I agree with all your points, and assert a few of my own.
Solo players will not acknowledge that grouping for no reason is not fun, while at the same time admitting that grouping is not necessary for socialization.
Ok, if you don't need to group to socialize, which we both agree on, then why do you need to group?
If there is absolutely no need to group, then what's supposed to make it fun?'
Again, we've already stated it's NOT socialization, because grouping is not required to socialize.
The reason grouping is fun, is because it requires team work to over come a challenge.
A challenge that can be avoided, is not a real challenge.
When you add in alternatives to group challenges that require team work, you have removed the challenge for the group player, and therefore the fun, the REASON for grouping.
Why would you group if there is no reason for it?
The reason cannot be socializing, because we have already agreed this can be done playing solo.
To be honest, when there was no reason at all for the grouping is some of the most fun I've had in groups.
To be honest, when there was no reason at all for the grouping is some of the most fun I've had in groups.
Agreed. In MMOs where the dev focus is on creating tools to facilitate interaction rather than forcing it, people interact more willingly and more often.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
To be honest, when there was no reason at all for the grouping is some of the most fun I've had in groups.
Agreed. In MMOs where the dev focus is on creating tools to facilitate interaction rather than forcing it, people interact more willingly and more often.
I'll be the first to defend solo content... I prefer it most of the time. However, that didn't stop me from running my own guild with 200 members back when I played WoW.
On Thursdays guild members were required to help out the lowbies... no challenge there, not at all, but we had a blast.
I agree with all your points, and assert a few of my own. Solo players will not acknowledge that grouping for no reason is not fun, while at the same time admitting that grouping is not necessary for socialization. Ok, if you don't need to group to socialize, which we both agree on, then why do you need to group?
You're starting to catch on. Now we just need you to get to understand that people can and will work together towards certain goals without having to be forced into some artificial 6, 8, 25, or 40 man construct.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
This is the cancer that is killing MMO's Go play a single player game if you want to do everything on your own!!
I agree with you 100% good sir. See, the new generation of mmo players after wow are selfish players and don't care about anything else. I agree, they all should just play Obliviion. I really believe however, that solo play should be there, because you wil not always find a group. I am a big believer that solo play is ok when you cant find a group. But you have to give incentives to group so you will find more groups. I think people is drawn away from forced grouping, but force grouping games via, EQ had a great community!
Originally posted by Ihmotepp A challenge that can be avoided, is not a real challenge.
The core of your argument; you want bragging rights.
I've no problem with that; providing I can have them too .. so consider thus:
A group instance that rewards an epic set (called Grouphugger's Raiment or whatever).
A solo instance that rewards an epic set (called Hermit's Regalia or whatever).
The two instances are different, the reward sets are visually different, but they have identical "stats".
You happy with that?
If, and only if it took just as much time on average for somebody to do the solo instance as it did for the group to get together and do the group instance; and only if it was just as difficult.
Then I would be fine with that, but good luck with getting those balanced and still having a game with classes and differences between players, bro.
The reason groupers are so scared of the idea of solo-favorable content is because they think that given that content, there would be no need to group content. Like me, I'm sure they don't like the idea of going on an MMO just to play with themselves all day. Which, if the solo dungeon is ANY bit easier or more rewarding will happen.
Originally posted by Ihmotepp A challenge that can be avoided, is not a real challenge.
The core of your argument; you want bragging rights.
I've no problem with that; providing I can have them too .. so consider thus:
A group instance that rewards an epic set (called Grouphugger's Raiment or whatever).
A solo instance that rewards an epic set (called Hermit's Regalia or whatever).
The two instances are different, the reward sets are visually different, but they have identical "stats".
You happy with that?
Why would changing the colors do anything?
I don't care what the color of the gear is. I mean, I don't really want to wear hot pink armor, but other than that what's a different color supposed to do?
I"m perfectly happy with the solo gear if it has the same stats.
Which means you've removed the challenge of groupoing.
I see no challenge in grouping if I can just get the solo gear, and again I don't really care if it's a different color.
I would simply solo that game, and wear the solo gear of a different color. It's much easier than grouping, and the easiest route to the prizes is the challenge, not some made up thing you do to make the prize harder to get.
This is the cancer that is killing MMO's Go play a single player game if you want to do everything on your own!!
No, the cancer is the bald assertion that MMOs are all about grouping which is simply not true. They never have been, they never will be. It is a complete and total lie that grouping is the only "correct" way to play an MMO.
Go play a game like Call of Duty if you want to be in a team. Leave the rest of us alone.
You obviously haven't been around in this genre for a while. I haven't played UO but I did play EQ. At lower levels you could solo but at later levels you had to group. Now some classes, players found out that they could solo at leter stages of the game. Yes, EQ was made after a DnD mold! They wanted grouping. You are obviously clueless.
Originally posted by Ihmotepp A challenge that can be avoided, is not a real challenge.
The core of your argument; you want bragging rights.
I've no problem with that; providing I can have them too .. so consider thus:
A group instance that rewards an epic set (called Grouphugger's Raiment or whatever).
A solo instance that rewards an epic set (called Hermit's Regalia or whatever).
The two instances are different, the reward sets are visually different, but they have identical "stats".
You happy with that?
Why would changing the colors do anything?
I don't care what the color of the gear is. I mean, I don't really want to wear hot pink armor, but other than that what's a different color supposed to do?
I"m perfectly happy with the solo gear if it has the same stats.
Which means you've removed the challenge of groupoing.
I see no challenge in grouping if I can just get the solo gear, and again I don't really care if it's a different color.
I would simply solo that game, and wear the solo gear of a different color. It's much easier than grouping, and the easiest route to the prizes is the challenge, not some made up thing you do to make the prize harder to get.
This is why groupers dislike the idea of a solo-based game style. You -can- have group content that gives better rewards and whatnot whist still having solo content as well, and people will play it. However, make them equal and who the fuck is gonna group? Nobody, that's who.
I agree with all your points, and assert a few of my own. Solo players will not acknowledge that grouping for no reason is not fun, while at the same time admitting that grouping is not necessary for socialization. Ok, if you don't need to group to socialize, which we both agree on, then why do you need to group?
You're starting to catch on. Now we just need you to get to understand that people can and will work together towards certain goals without having to be forced into some artificial 6, 8, 25, or 40 man construct.
All grouping constructs are artificial.
There is nothign "natural" about the numbers on a football team, a basketball team, or a soccer team, and we are after playing an MMORP GAME, not building a bridge.
I do not doubt people WILL group for shits and giggles.
I did it on CoH.
But it is not a satisfying grouping game, like EQ or DAoC, which are much more fun in the long run, IMO.
Yes you CAN group, but if there's no reason to, you can just as easily quit the group.
That's easy. When you can't quit and still meet your objective, that is the challenge.
Comments
In single player RPGS like final fantasy etc, I play them for the grouping aspect working with a team, thats a major part that makes a RPG fun. if it was just a single character hacking through everything it would pretty much be an Action game. I want a mmoRPG not a single player experience.
Whats the difference you still have to hack through everything..In a group or not.. As you say.. it still a Action game.But if you sux in a group you will then be kicked..This bring you back to solo..
Some people rob you at gun point..Others will rob you at "Ball Point Pen"
Whats the difference you still have to hack through everything..In a group or not.. As you say.. it still a Action game.But if you sux in a group you will then be kicked..This bring you back to solo..
The difference should be obvious. In a well made grouping game, grouping requires cooperation and coordination. Solo does not.
In a poorly made grouping game, grouping also doesn't require coooperation or coordination. Everyone in the group just wacks the mob as if they were playing solo.
The question could also be "Why play MMOs, if you only want to solo?"
I think both play styles are valid and mixture is probably better than the either-or.
However, I do not think MMOs do enough these days to reward group play. They seem to prefer to reward individual efforts. This is something that could be improved upon.
Grouping should have a clear advantage over solo play. As soloing is something that everyone can do, it simply should be less rewarding. This does not mean that solo play should be pointless, far from it.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
Have you ever been a member of, for example, a raiding guild in a solo friendly game?
It's a forced-grouping mechanic and it isn't exactly populated by the most pleasant of people; in fact it seems to have exactly the opposite effect that you're describing. People tend to join up to the raiding community to get uber gear so that they can be asshats to the non-raiding community (i.e. the soloers).
I was talking about grouping, not raiding.
Group = 2 or more players up to a full party, typically 6-10.
Raid = more than one full party.
IMO, the dynamic change from group to raid. I don't care for raiding, but I do enjoy grouping.
Hmm, so your viewpoint is that solo play breeds asshats, raiding breeds asshats, but small group content doesn't? Sorry, but I just don't agree with your logic on this one.
I believe that in situations where you are reliant on other people in order to progress (i.e. forced grouping or raiding) you are always going to encounter drama. Two players will fall out, each will have people within the guild/community that takes their side of the argument and asshattery will abound.
Sadly, I think the one universal truth is that wherever people interact with one another in any way, shape or form you will find asshats.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Scroll up to post #12 where I discussed the group advantage over solo play. Or do you think that advancing 30% faster than everyone else isn't enough of a rewad?
Scroll up to post #12 where I discussed the group advantage over solo play. Or do you think that advancing 30% faster than everyone else isn't enough of a rewad?
groupers always want more.
I have a difference of opinion. To me anything with the word multiplayer means interacting with other players. Interacting ,to me, means working together with other players for a common goal, not just chit-chat. In a FPS, you can be on the same server as 32 other players. There is a common goal. Whether you choose to participate in it or not is your choice, but the game does not change. Players are still going to kill you in a deathmatch, and teams are still going to try to capture the flag.
In an MMORPG, when you choose not to participate, you are taking an active stance against the community, putting individual desires above the good of the whole. I realize loners pay the same subscription fees in an MMORPG and therefore feel entitled to spend thier time however they wish, but it is my opinion that you are missing the entire reason for playing an MMORPG in the first place. I can definitely understand the loner point of view in todays games as the only real goal seems to be loot rewards and max level. It used to be fun and challenging to be able to put aside your differences for a greater purpose. That purpose has largely disappeared unfortunately.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Have you ever been a member of, for example, a raiding guild in a solo friendly game?
It's a forced-grouping mechanic and it isn't exactly populated by the most pleasant of people; in fact it seems to have exactly the opposite effect that you're describing. People tend to join up to the raiding community to get uber gear so that they can be asshats to the non-raiding community (i.e. the soloers).
Put on your tinfoil hat, the raider's are totally out to get you (and I mean you in particular). They want to feast on your souls.
Fact is soloing promotes mememeism, why be nice to others if you wont ever need anyone's help?
The world's most popular mmo proves this. What was WOW's number one complaint in the first year? Shittiest community on the internet (yes worse then 4chan imo). Being that WOW was the first mainstream "casual/solo friendly" MMO, one could conclude that the solo friendly factor of this was the cause of the decline in community quality (well that and the bnet kiddies).
I have a difference of opinion. To me anything with the word multiplayer means interacting with other players. Interacting ,to me, means working together with other players for a common goal, not just chit-chat. In a FPS, you can be on the same server as 32 other players. There is a common goal. Whether you choose to participate in it or not is your choice, but the game does not change. Players are still going to kill you in a deathmatch, and teams are still going to try to capture the flag.
In an MMORPG, when you choose not to participate, you are taking an active stance against the community, putting individual desires above the good of the whole. I realize loners pay the same subscription fees in an MMORPG and therefore feel entitled to spend thier time however they wish, but it is my opinion that you are missing the entire reason for playing an MMORPG in the first place. I can definitely understand the loner point of view in todays games as the only real goal seems to be loot rewards and max level. It used to be fun and challenging to be able to put aside your differences for a greater purpose. That purpose has largely disappeared unfortunately.
Well that is your opinion and you are entitled to have it. I think most groupers are far worse - caring only about themselves and if they get what they want and not caring about anyone else in the group. Experience with the typical grouper is why I prefer to solo while I can. This is my opinion and I am just as entitled to it as you are. I feel that the main reason a lot of people do not like to group is because of the actions and attitudes of those who insist on grouping so that their needs are met.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
It's humorous that the argument by the grouping crowd is entirely focused on XP, forcing people together and grinding and then they'll serve up a post like this where they will again, with complete disregard for the hundreds of replies to the contrary, insist that people who level solo are anti-social. This post goes as far as to say that if you don't group with them then you are "you are taking an active stance against the community, putting individual desires above the good of the whole." The irony of that is beautiful.
The players that want to force grouping are concerned only with themselves. They want to force other players to cater to their specific wants and desires. Worse, they are the first to castigate others for losing sight of what an MMO should be, when they consistently and ardently insist that forced grouping, loot and levelling are the most important aspects of an MMO. They cannot and, worse, refuse to accept that interaction and grouping are not the same thing. While the solo stance is "you play your way, I'll play mine," the forced grouping crowd will not be happy until everyone is either forced to play their way or punished severely for not doing so.
Every thread goes the same way. The forced grouping crowd will always argue the same points, despite how many times their falsehoods are corrected.
- Interaction and grouping are not the same thing
- A person can contribute to the game community in forms other than DKP and knowing their role.
- Solo play does not mean anti-social play.
Read it. Write it down if you have to. But, for fuck's sake, stop bringing the same tired and completely false arguments out every damn thread.
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Here's waht makes grouping fun for me. Take away any of these aspects, and you take away the fun in grouping.
1. Team work. This means you must work together, and when you do, the sum of the parts is greater than the whole. If each person in the group is attacking the Mob as if they were solo, this is not team work IMO, and is not fun, and does not make for a good grouping game.
2. A challenge that cannot be avoided, which requires team work. There needs to be some point to working as a team. Just for shits and giggles is not really a point, not a reason to work for a team, not satisfying in a game.
WHY, WHY, WHY are you working as a team? Because there is a challenge that requires team work to over come. The satisfaction is in overcoming this challenge as a team.
When is it no longer a challenge? When it can be avoided. You can simply go around it, use an alternative route. For example, I COULD group and do this dungeon, however, I can avoid it by doing an alternative solo dungoen. Challenge no longer relevant, grouping no longer fun.
I COULD group and do this dungeon. However, it scales. If I go in solo, it will get easier so I can win. Challenge no longer relevant, grouping no longer fun.
Here is what is NOT important to me as a player that likes grouping:
Forcing you to group with me. If you don't like a challenge that requires team work to over come, I don't want to play the game with you, I don't want to make you group with me.
Showing off my gear to solo players. I don't care about gear, except that it is a measure of content, and provides a progression path.
A storm trooper is easier to kill than Darth Vader or a Krayt Dragon. Levels, skill levels, and gear, are what make that progression work. That is the purpose of gear, what makes loot fun to get, not showing off to you.
I agree with all your points, and assert a few of my own.
Solo players will not acknowledge that grouping for no reason is not fun, while at the same time admitting that grouping is not necessary for socialization.
Ok, if you don't need to group to socialize, which we both agree on, then why do you need to group?
If there is absolutely no need to group, then what's supposed to make it fun?'
Again, we've already stated it's NOT socialization, because grouping is not required to socialize.
The reason grouping is fun, is because it requires team work to over come a challenge.
A challenge that can be avoided, is not a real challenge.
When you add in alternatives to group challenges that require team work, you have removed the challenge for the group player, and therefore the fun, the REASON for grouping.
Why would you group if there is no reason for it?
The reason cannot be socializing, because we have already agreed this can be done playing solo.
I agree with all your points, and assert a few of my own.
Solo players will not acknowledge that grouping for no reason is not fun, while at the same time admitting that grouping is not necessary for socialization.
Ok, if you don't need to group to socialize, which we both agree on, then why do you need to group?
If there is absolutely no need to group, then what's supposed to make it fun?'
Again, we've already stated it's NOT socialization, because grouping is not required to socialize.
The reason grouping is fun, is because it requires team work to over come a challenge.
A challenge that can be avoided, is not a real challenge.
When you add in alternatives to group challenges that require team work, you have removed the challenge for the group player, and therefore the fun, the REASON for grouping.
Why would you group if there is no reason for it?
The reason cannot be socializing, because we have already agreed this can be done playing solo.
To be honest, when there was no reason at all for the grouping is some of the most fun I've had in groups.
Agreed. In MMOs where the dev focus is on creating tools to facilitate interaction rather than forcing it, people interact more willingly and more often.
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The core of your argument; you want bragging rights.
I've no problem with that; providing I can have them too .. so consider thus:
A group instance that rewards an epic set (called Grouphugger's Raiment or whatever).
A solo instance that rewards an epic set (called Hermit's Regalia or whatever).
The two instances are different, the reward sets are visually different, but they have identical "stats".
You happy with that?
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Agreed. In MMOs where the dev focus is on creating tools to facilitate interaction rather than forcing it, people interact more willingly and more often.
I'll be the first to defend solo content... I prefer it most of the time. However, that didn't stop me from running my own guild with 200 members back when I played WoW.
On Thursdays guild members were required to help out the lowbies... no challenge there, not at all, but we had a blast.
You're starting to catch on. Now we just need you to get to understand that people can and will work together towards certain goals without having to be forced into some artificial 6, 8, 25, or 40 man construct.
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I agree with you 100% good sir. See, the new generation of mmo players after wow are selfish players and don't care about anything else. I agree, they all should just play Obliviion. I really believe however, that solo play should be there, because you wil not always find a group. I am a big believer that solo play is ok when you cant find a group. But you have to give incentives to group so you will find more groups. I think people is drawn away from forced grouping, but force grouping games via, EQ had a great community!
The core of your argument; you want bragging rights.
I've no problem with that; providing I can have them too .. so consider thus:
A group instance that rewards an epic set (called Grouphugger's Raiment or whatever).
A solo instance that rewards an epic set (called Hermit's Regalia or whatever).
The two instances are different, the reward sets are visually different, but they have identical "stats".
You happy with that?
If, and only if it took just as much time on average for somebody to do the solo instance as it did for the group to get together and do the group instance; and only if it was just as difficult.
Then I would be fine with that, but good luck with getting those balanced and still having a game with classes and differences between players, bro.
The reason groupers are so scared of the idea of solo-favorable content is because they think that given that content, there would be no need to group content. Like me, I'm sure they don't like the idea of going on an MMO just to play with themselves all day. Which, if the solo dungeon is ANY bit easier or more rewarding will happen.
The core of your argument; you want bragging rights.
I've no problem with that; providing I can have them too .. so consider thus:
A group instance that rewards an epic set (called Grouphugger's Raiment or whatever).
A solo instance that rewards an epic set (called Hermit's Regalia or whatever).
The two instances are different, the reward sets are visually different, but they have identical "stats".
You happy with that?
Why would changing the colors do anything?
I don't care what the color of the gear is. I mean, I don't really want to wear hot pink armor, but other than that what's a different color supposed to do?
I"m perfectly happy with the solo gear if it has the same stats.
Which means you've removed the challenge of groupoing.
I see no challenge in grouping if I can just get the solo gear, and again I don't really care if it's a different color.
I would simply solo that game, and wear the solo gear of a different color. It's much easier than grouping, and the easiest route to the prizes is the challenge, not some made up thing you do to make the prize harder to get.
No, the cancer is the bald assertion that MMOs are all about grouping which is simply not true. They never have been, they never will be. It is a complete and total lie that grouping is the only "correct" way to play an MMO.
Go play a game like Call of Duty if you want to be in a team. Leave the rest of us alone.
You obviously haven't been around in this genre for a while. I haven't played UO but I did play EQ. At lower levels you could solo but at later levels you had to group. Now some classes, players found out that they could solo at leter stages of the game. Yes, EQ was made after a DnD mold! They wanted grouping. You are obviously clueless.
The core of your argument; you want bragging rights.
I've no problem with that; providing I can have them too .. so consider thus:
A group instance that rewards an epic set (called Grouphugger's Raiment or whatever).
A solo instance that rewards an epic set (called Hermit's Regalia or whatever).
The two instances are different, the reward sets are visually different, but they have identical "stats".
You happy with that?
Why would changing the colors do anything?
I don't care what the color of the gear is. I mean, I don't really want to wear hot pink armor, but other than that what's a different color supposed to do?
I"m perfectly happy with the solo gear if it has the same stats.
Which means you've removed the challenge of groupoing.
I see no challenge in grouping if I can just get the solo gear, and again I don't really care if it's a different color.
I would simply solo that game, and wear the solo gear of a different color. It's much easier than grouping, and the easiest route to the prizes is the challenge, not some made up thing you do to make the prize harder to get.
This is why groupers dislike the idea of a solo-based game style. You -can- have group content that gives better rewards and whatnot whist still having solo content as well, and people will play it. However, make them equal and who the fuck is gonna group? Nobody, that's who.
You're starting to catch on. Now we just need you to get to understand that people can and will work together towards certain goals without having to be forced into some artificial 6, 8, 25, or 40 man construct.
All grouping constructs are artificial.
There is nothign "natural" about the numbers on a football team, a basketball team, or a soccer team, and we are after playing an MMORP GAME, not building a bridge.
I do not doubt people WILL group for shits and giggles.
I did it on CoH.
But it is not a satisfying grouping game, like EQ or DAoC, which are much more fun in the long run, IMO.
Yes you CAN group, but if there's no reason to, you can just as easily quit the group.
That's easy. When you can't quit and still meet your objective, that is the challenge.