Casual vs Hardcore - found a solution

Omega3

The debate about creating servers with "hardcore" rules and more casual-friendly rules is a dead horse i'm not going to beat

The main argument against this is that, why would people play on "hard" servers if they can get exactly the same rewards on the easy ones.

Then i figured that Blizzard partially got the solution with their hard/easy modes for dungeons, trying to cater to different kind of players on the same servers. INstead they should split those populations who don't get on well.

The main difference being that hardcore have the time and are willing to devote it to military-like raiding, while casuals would prefer accessible content which doesnt require hardcore discipline and a more relaxed approach.

1) All hard or all easy

- there should be "easy mode" servers, where you only get let's say "blue" lvl stuff, or low lvl purpler stuff, more RP-type events.

- "hard" servers with more Everquest like rules (death penatly, death run, open pvp, uninstanced raid content) no led-by-the-hand casual-friendly content, and exclusive harder content (and the easy content wouldnt be accessible); on those servers, you'd get top-of-the-line stuff unnaccessible on easy servers;

2) hard to raid, but easy to live with

Or, servers where content is hard but death penalties soft, and easy content but harsher death penalties.

krugve

Creating more server rulesets and further dividing playerbase is never a good idea. You're correct, Blizzard's approach is the right one. Players are one the same server and they can make decision even during the encounter which difficulty they want to pick. And that idea is as old as vanilla WoW: encounter with three bugs in AQ 40. And harder mode does give better rewards in WoW, so again, why the need to create additional server types?

Omega3

Because "casual" players always end up burning up because they know the next step in their experience is either hardcore raiding or quitting.

By splitting the 2 population with sensible rules, you might end up with more suscribers in the end, and instead of trying to do everything on the same server, you split the experience.

The automotive industry don't seell you cars that can both have low fuel consumption in town and be rockets on the highway, it's one or the other; same rule should apply to the MMO: different targets, different segments.

Ilvaldyr

There's a far simpler solution: Scaling content.

Make a raid dungeon, put 5 bosses in it.

Have each boss drop 1 x "token" for every player in the group that kills it.

Make [Epic Sword] cost 10 tokens.

Put the raid dungeon on a 1 week lockout timer.

Now the tricky bit; make the dungeon scale in difficulty depending on how many players are in the group that do it, without eliminating the challenge for very large/very small groups (or even soloers).

Now you have a game that lets you play how you want to play without being consigned to second-class citizenship or being excluded from a ton of content that the developers have spent the last 6 months making.

Sadly, this is a violently opposed suggestion by a fair number of the "hardcore" crowd, who don't want the casual/hardcore playstyles to have equal consideration and/or progression.

krugve

Automated scaling based on number of players can end up ugly. Either be too easy or too hard on one end of the spectrum. Fine tuned encouters for 5, 10 or 25 players give better experience. While it's true the more players required the less casual friendly it becomes, there's some minimum number of participants where interesting and challenging dungeon can be designed for.

The other way of scaling is shifting the difficulty based on player's decision. Either by checking "hard mode" box or even during the encounter: previously mentioned three bug bosses in WoW's AQ 40 where difficulty depended on the order in which they were killed and so did the loots dropped.

If the players were stuck on "easy" server they wouldn't have easy way of reaching for more challenging content and thus quit. On one server ruleset they can practice on normal difficulty and try for the hard one next week if they feel ready for it. Of course nothing stopping "hardcore" players for going the hard way straight from the start.

Gadareth

Originally posted by Omega3


Because "casual" players always end up burning up because they know the next step in their experience is either hardcore raiding or quitting.
By splitting the 2 population with sensible rules, you might end up with more suscribers in the end, and instead of trying to do everything on the same server, you split the experience.
The automotive industry don't seell you cars that can both have low fuel consumption in town and be rockets on the highway, it's one or the other; same rule should apply to the MMO: different targets, different segments.

 

Actually its the other way round, Hardcore players are far more likely to hit burn out than a casual player. This is for several reasons, firstly the content is completed everything that can be done has been done but now comes the long process of repeating over and over again the same content till they bring out something new. This is the boredom burnout.

Secondly there is the presssure a hardcore player in a hardcore guild is under a lot more pressure from his peers than a casual player ever will be. Miss one to many raids or fail to perform to the required standard will often have severe penalties applied. This pressure can and often does cause people to drop out. This is the I cant take it anymore butnout.

Finaly there is the shiny burnout which to be fair hits both casual and hardcore players when a new game comes out looking all shiny and new many people drop the old and head for the new.

In contrast a casual player rarely runs out of content before new content is added, is usually in a more relaxed guild so the pressure is reduced.

So in essence the reason I doubt we would ever see a hardcore and casual server split is because the HARDCORE players would burnout and drop long before their casual counterparts. Partly because in a pure hardcore server with everyone being hardcore then a hardcore player fully decked out in the best is just yet another hardcore player decked out in the best nothing special and nothing new. In a world full of supermen whats the point in being superman....

Just my 2 cents

Gadareth

RamenThief7

Originally posted by Gadareth

Originally posted by Omega3


Because "casual" players always end up burning up because they know the next step in their experience is either hardcore raiding or quitting.
By splitting the 2 population with sensible rules, you might end up with more suscribers in the end, and instead of trying to do everything on the same server, you split the experience.
The automotive industry don't seell you cars that can both have low fuel consumption in town and be rockets on the highway, it's one or the other; same rule should apply to the MMO: different targets, different segments.

 

Actually its the other way round, Hardcore players are far more likely to hit burn out than a casual player. This is for several reasons, firstly the content is completed everything that can be done has been done but now comes the long process of repeating over and over again the same content till they bring out something new. This is the boredom burnout.

Secondly there is the presssure a hardcore player in a hardcore guild is under a lot more pressure from his peers than a casual player ever will be. Miss one to many raids or fail to perform to the required standard will often have severe penalties applied. This pressure can and often does cause people to drop out. This is the I cant take it anymore butnout.

Finaly there is the shiny burnout which to be fair hits both casual and hardcore players when a new game comes out looking all shiny and new many people drop the old and head for the new.

In contrast a casual player rarely runs out of content before new content is added, is usually in a more relaxed guild so the pressure is reduced.

So in essence the reason I doubt we would ever see a hardcore and casual server split is because the HARDCORE players would burnout and drop long before their casual counterparts. Partly because in a pure hardcore server with everyone being hardcore then a hardcore player fully decked out in the best is just yet another hardcore player decked out in the best nothing special and nothing new. In a world full of supermen whats the point in being superman....

Just my 2 cents

Gadareth

Mmm....I don't know. While it is technically true that some hardcore players do burn out, you're forgetting the reasons that makes a gamer hardcore to begin with. It would be 50/50 with hardcores burning out at the very most.

Another thing to remember is that casuals do not neccessarily dedicate themselves to a game, some usually float around from game to game.

In the end, both sides have drop outs, but the reasons are drastically different.

Gadareth

Originally posted by RamenThief7

Originally posted by Gadareth

Originally posted by Omega3


Because "casual" players always end up burning up because they know the next step in their experience is either hardcore raiding or quitting.
By splitting the 2 population with sensible rules, you might end up with more suscribers in the end, and instead of trying to do everything on the same server, you split the experience.
The automotive industry don't seell you cars that can both have low fuel consumption in town and be rockets on the highway, it's one or the other; same rule should apply to the MMO: different targets, different segments.

 

Actually its the other way round, Hardcore players are far more likely to hit burn out than a casual player. This is for several reasons, firstly the content is completed everything that can be done has been done but now comes the long process of repeating over and over again the same content till they bring out something new. This is the boredom burnout.

Secondly there is the presssure a hardcore player in a hardcore guild is under a lot more pressure from his peers than a casual player ever will be. Miss one to many raids or fail to perform to the required standard will often have severe penalties applied. This pressure can and often does cause people to drop out. This is the I cant take it anymore butnout.

Finaly there is the shiny burnout which to be fair hits both casual and hardcore players when a new game comes out looking all shiny and new many people drop the old and head for the new.

In contrast a casual player rarely runs out of content before new content is added, is usually in a more relaxed guild so the pressure is reduced.

So in essence the reason I doubt we would ever see a hardcore and casual server split is because the HARDCORE players would burnout and drop long before their casual counterparts. Partly because in a pure hardcore server with everyone being hardcore then a hardcore player fully decked out in the best is just yet another hardcore player decked out in the best nothing special and nothing new. In a world full of supermen whats the point in being superman....

Just my 2 cents

Gadareth

Mmm....I don't know. While it is technically true that some hardcore players do burn out, you're forgetting the reasons that makes a gamer hardcore to begin with. It would be 50/50 with hardcores burning out at the very most.

Another thing to remember is that casuals do not neccessarily dedicate themselves to a game, some usually float around from game to game.

In the end, both sides have drop outs, but the reasons are drastically different.

 

I agree my point wasnt that Casuals drop out of games but its not for the reasons the orginal poster mentioned and his statement that they "always" drop out was obviously false.

Remember hardcore gamers often want to "BEAT" the game and once done move on for the next challenge perhas returning when new content is added to be beaten again.

But yes attrrition rates between hardcore and casual are probably equal.

just my 2 cents

Gadareth

protoroc

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr


There's a far simpler solution: Scaling content.
Make a raid dungeon, put 5 bosses in it.

Have each boss drop 1 x "token" for every player in the group that kills it.

Make [Epic Sword] cost 10 tokens.

Put the raid dungeon on a 1 week lockout timer.
Now the tricky bit; make the dungeon scale in difficulty depending on how many players are in the group that do it, without eliminating the challenge for very large/very small groups (or even soloers).
Now you have a game that lets you play how you want to play without being consigned to second-class citizenship or being excluded from a ton of content that the developers have spent the last 6 months making.
Sadly, this is a violently opposed suggestion by a fair number of the "hardcore" crowd, who don't want the casual/hardcore playstyles to have equal consideration and/or progression.

 

Since when did casual/hardcore=solo/group? Sorry pal this thread isn't about your soloist agenda. There is such a thing as casual groupers and hardcore soloists.

Omega3

Originally posted by Gadareth 


I agree my point wasnt that Casuals drop out of games but its not for the reasons the orginal poster mentioned and his statement that they "always" drop out was obviously false.
Remember hardcore gamers often want to "BEAT" the game and once done move on for the next challenge perhas returning when new content is added to be beaten again.
But yes attrrition rates between hardcore and casual are probably equal.
just my 2 cents
Gadareth

Casuals go trough content faster than you think... at least trough the content build up for them: ie lvling, rerolling, and doing 5-man dungeons.

Also "burning out" is not just about "beating" the content targeted for your segment.

There is also the problem that the lvling process tend to be pretty empty 3 years after a release, and casuals are pretty much left alone in the lowbie game, eventually told that the goal is to reach maximum lvl and "raid", which makes them "burn out" as well.

If you look at server pop nowadays in WoW, all lowbies are reroll, there arent that many lowbies, and most players at lvl 80 are running AT LEAST 5-man hard instances.

Some are telling that making hard/easy servers would remove the "choice" factor -  it's however clear that many players end up raiding no by choice but by necessity, and since there is a blend of hardcore and casuals, the guild politics is HEAVILY influenced by hardcore quitting for more hardcore guilds, and casuals left alone in their guild which eventually end up dying because of this.

I've been both hardcore and casual in WoW, and i know what i'm talking about: blending the 2 populations together complicates guild recruitement and politics, makes people who don't have time bitter than the other half of the guild is advancing faster than them, and usually ends up having people stabbing their guildmates in the back and leaving them, and other feeling desperate at what is being asked of them: be available 5 hours every evening or quit the game.

So trust me, physically separatring casuals (or even semi hardcore) and hardcore players is essneitla, i've seen no good emerge from blending the 2 population, either in Everquest, or in WoW.

paulscott

why would you need different reward sets if players are on completely different servers and couldn't even "think" about interacting if they wanted to?

Gadareth

Originally posted by Omega3

Originally posted by Gadareth 


I agree my point wasnt that Casuals drop out of games but its not for the reasons the orginal poster mentioned and his statement that they "always" drop out was obviously false.
Remember hardcore gamers often want to "BEAT" the game and once done move on for the next challenge perhas returning when new content is added to be beaten again.
But yes attrrition rates between hardcore and casual are probably equal.
just my 2 cents
Gadareth

Casuals go trough content faster than you think... at least trough the content build up for them: ie lvling, rerolling, and doing 5-man dungeons.

Also "burning out" is not just about "beating" the content targeted for your segment.

There is also the problem that the lvling process tend to be pretty empty 3 years after a release, and casuals are pretty much left alone in the lowbie game, eventually told that the goal is to reach maximum lvl and "raid", which makes them "burn out" as well.

If you look at server pop nowadays in WoW, all lowbies are reroll, there arent that many lowbies, and most players at lvl 80 are running AT LEAST 5-man hard instances.

Some are telling that making hard/easy servers would remove the "choice" factor -  it's however clear that many players end up raiding no by choice but by necessity, and since there is a blend of hardcore and casuals, the guild politics is HEAVILY influenced by hardcore quitting for more hardcore guilds, and casuals left alone in their guild which eventually end up dying because of this.

I've been both hardcore and casual in WoW, and i know what i'm talking about: blending the 2 populations together complicates guild recruitement and politics, makes people who don't have time bitter than the other half of the guild is advancing faster than us, and usually ends up having people stabbing their guildmates in the back and leaving them, and other feeling desperate at what is being asked of them: be available 5 hours every evening or quit the game.

So trust me, physically separatring casuals (or even semi hardcore) and hardcore players is essneitla, i've seen no good emerge from blending the 2 population, either in Everquest, or in WoW.

 

I have also been playing mmorgs since EQ1 and have also been in both casual and hardcore guilds and yes even in mixed ones. The key oint isnt to have seperate servers. Its guild politics if you find your organisational skills held by your guild leadershi is so poor as to be unable to handle two different playing styles then the simple soloution is dont. Its easy enough and a lot of hardcore raiding guilds do it DONT TAKE IN CASUALS !!

You dont need a special server you just need common sense...

As for casual for you statements about content and such its equal to both sides people get bored bored of killing Yogg over and over and bored of killing Ragnaros its all basically the same thing bored is bored and I suspect the same ercentage of people from both harcore and casual dro because of it.

Just my 2 cents

Gadareth

Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by protoroc

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr


There's a far simpler solution: Scaling content.
Make a raid dungeon, put 5 bosses in it.

Have each boss drop 1 x "token" for every player in the group that kills it.

Make [Epic Sword] cost 10 tokens.

Put the raid dungeon on a 1 week lockout timer.
Now the tricky bit; make the dungeon scale in difficulty depending on how many players are in the group that do it, without eliminating the challenge for very large/very small groups (or even soloers).
Now you have a game that lets you play how you want to play without being consigned to second-class citizenship or being excluded from a ton of content that the developers have spent the last 6 months making.
Sadly, this is a violently opposed suggestion by a fair number of the "hardcore" crowd, who don't want the casual/hardcore playstyles to have equal consideration and/or progression.

 Since when did casual/hardcore=solo/group? Sorry pal this thread isn't about your soloist agenda. There is such a thing as casual groupers and hardcore soloists.

And when did I say it was?

My suggestion allows equal progression and access to content for the following people:

Gamers who play 40+ hours a week and prefer large-scale grouping.

Gamers who play 40+ hours a week and prefer small groups/soloing.

Gamers who play ~15 hours a week and prefer large-scale grouping.

Gamers who play ~15 hours a week and prefer small groups/soloing.

I have absolutely no interest in debating what defines a player as "hardcrore"; if you want to attack my suggestion, then you can go right ahead and do that .. but I've really no interest in your attempt to flame me based on your own personal definition of a subjective term.