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Should it matter who the company behind an MMORPG is?
Dafong
Member Posts: 224
Should it matter? Should we bother to look beyond the title of the game and what the game is like and search out who made it, who publishes it and who runs the day to day of the game?
I think in MMORPGs it does matter. MMORPGs unlike any other games are subject to the whims of the developers. The game can change drastically depending on what the developers feel is neccessary to their vision for the game. Seldom do they ever listen to the customers, assuming that they know best.
It requires a time commitment that can be quite exhaustive, I have seen several signatures on this board, from Xfire, that shows people have spent hundreds of hours playing certain MMORPGs. I think when you invest that amount of time within a game you have to carefully consider who you are spending time with.
Think of it like being in an eighteen-hour car journey. Would you not carefully consider who you let be a passenger with you during that journey? That is what an MMORPG is like, you have to share a journey with the company that runs the MMORPG and journey can either be enjoyable and fun or it can be excruciating.
Just wondered if anyone else avoided certain MMORPGs either because of the company behind them or because of the actions taken by the company that they felt were incompatible with their general opinion on things.
I made this post because I just commented about the fact that Aion has treated its Beta testing phase more as a prize for people who pre-ordered then as a means to testing and correcting the issues within their game. This has somewhat turned me off the game because while I understand that any company must turn a profit, I am not impressed with that profit coming at the expense of a decent game I am expected to pay for which is more likely to be filled with bugs because the people asked to test it were only given that chance after shelling out money and therefore were not interested in beta testing at all but rather in 'getting their monies worth'. It has made me think twice about whether this is a company I want to go on a journey with.
Comments
I think it kinda depends.. while it shoudnt matter, some companies have multiple MMOs that all arnt great, so when a new MMO is released by them, everyone suspects they wont be good either. Vice versa, if a company that has a history of making great games, their future titles will be anticipated.
Currently Playing: MapleStory
Have Played: RuneScape, Guild Wars, WoW.
Waiting For: Guild Wars 2
I would get used to it because not only was NCSoft not the first to do this but its going to be quite common now to market to players that if they preorder the game they're guaranteed to get into beta. I'm not saying you have to like it but its what companies are going to do pretty much across the board from here on out.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Yes, the developer does have a base upon where I decide to play a game. NCSoft, and I do not begrudge them, they do make quality games, was responsible for the N A version of L2. L2 ws my escape from SWG after the NGE. It was fun until I hit 40, then it was nothing but misery to 65. I did give them a second chance with TR, a good few months after launch, only to find they cared about it so much that they canceled the game. I expect Aion to be nothing more than poor quests up front, followed by endless grinding in the end. Levels, from what I have read are less tedious (but tedious enough) , but the monetary system has not been properly fleshed out by beta players imho. Adena in L2 was impossible to sustain, as was the grind. My opinion of NCSoft is that they have no interest in a sustainable western market. I am cool with that, and for the CoX comment coming up, it was cryptic's bag. With the grind/mission system being most people's complaint. Perhaps Champs will be better, but...
The other developer is SOE. First in my opinion actually, but I already mentioned the game and don't want to dwell. As for logging in to Forgotten Realms, or future projects. At this point, why bother.
I might log into bioware's project, maybe Jumpgate, and even more-so CCP's new offering (even though they have spent two freakin years on station camping) if it ever comes to light. We'll see
Played (more than a month): SWG, Second Life, Tabula Rasa, Lineage 2, Everquest 2, EvE, MxO, Ryzom.
Tried: WoW, Shadowbane, Anarchy Online, Everquest, WWII Online, Planetside
Beta: Lotro, Tabula Rasa, WAR.
Please don't reply like that, it is very difficult to read, not only is the red a little bright and becomes blurry at larger sizes, eyesight issues, but its also quite difficult to follow something inside a post.
We are all big boys and girls, we can follow your reply simply as one chunk of text.
I did read some of the first paragraph, I would only relate to the Monk class in Everquest. For 2 years the Monk class community told the developers that defense/armor class was broken, that there was an issue with us taking higher damage then we should. For 2 years they pretty much ignored us.
Then some rather clever monks produced combat log parses of extremely long periods of time which mathetmatically proved that the background mathematics were not working as intended. These were not single fights with spikes they were 12 hour parses of damage continuously from a single source set out mathematically in tables that proved scientifically that Monks were broken.
It still took over a year for the Developers to admit their mistake and fix it.
So when people tell me the developers know best, I tend to be quite sceptical about that.
I beta tested L2, at the time it was a truly beautiful game, compared to EQ and others, using the Unreal tournament engine it looked great. But even in beta testing you could see how it was going to pan out. Never played SW:G because it was Sony Online Evil and at the time having just come out of playing EQ i had a true hatred for the company that has happily dissippated over the years.
I have worked with NCSoft and in my opinion they care almost nothing for players at all, the bottom line, money, is all they are interested in. While I understand a companies requirement to make money, that should not be the be all and end all of everything for the company.
I agree wholeheartedly.
Sony should do what God did with the flood... Let out the TIDE and start over from scratch. They have a lot of good games that would be great if run properly.
As far as NCSoft, I've spoken before about the "great" COV mod. : : It's a mod. Not a game. . . . $$
"I'm not cheap I'm incredibly subconsciously financially optimized"
"The worst part of censorship is ------------------"
Please don't reply like that, it is very difficult to read, not only is the red a little bright and becomes blurry at larger sizes, eyesight issues, but its also quite difficult to follow something inside a post.
We are all big boys and girls, we can follow your reply simply as one chunk of text.
I did read some of the first paragraph, I would only relate to the Monk class in Everquest. For 2 years the Monk class community told the developers that defense/armor class was broken, that there was an issue with us taking higher damage then we should. For 2 years they pretty much ignored us.
Then some rather clever monks produced combat log parses of extremely long periods of time which mathetmatically proved that the background mathematics were not working as intended. These were not single fights with spikes they were 12 hour parses of damage continuously from a single source set out mathematically in tables that proved scientifically that Monks were broken.
It still took over a year for the Developers to admit their mistake and fix it.
So when people tell me the developers know best, I tend to be quite sceptical about that.
Meh, okay.
As for the example you presented, that'd be one of those rare well-thought out, properly constructed suggestions. The more data, the better. People obviously took time to prove that something was wrong, and that's the sort of suggestions devs need to pay attention to. That's where we agree.
Now, the second and third paragraphs I guess you didn't read:
Companies have reputations. It's important to consider those reputations when you hear about that company. You wouldn't want to be stuck with a company that provides slow, half-baked patches, terrible customer support, or highly restrictive moderation on their forums - even if their game is good (just a few examples). But that's a personal choice. If you enjoy a game so much that the good outweighs the bad aspects of the company, you're free to play it.
For me personally (which is why I think this would have made a great poll thread), I try to take each game with a clean view. Even if I don't like the company, I'll still try the game if it interests me (though I'd be reluctant to buy it; I'd try to get a trial, or play it through one of my friends, etc). You never know. Sometimes, a company does things I don't approve of, but I've never said, "I won't play that company's game - any of their games - because they did this!" I just cancel my sub to their game, if I'm playing it, and I tell my friends so they can consider it if they're thinking about playing. I can understand people who might feel so strongly about something that they decide that's their only option, though (i.e. people who refuse to play Champions Online simply because of the item shop).
I beta tested L2, at the time it was a truly beautiful game, compared to EQ and others, using the Unreal tournament engine it looked great. But even in beta testing you could see how it was going to pan out. Never played SW:G because it was Sony Online Evil and at the time having just come out of playing EQ i had a true hatred for the company that has happily dissippated over the years.
I have worked with NCSoft and in my opinion they care almost nothing for players at all, the bottom line, money, is all they are interested in. While I understand a companies requirement to make money, that should not be the be all and end all of everything for the company.
I have to say, I never played eq. I did trial it once on a new mac because it was available, but it was well beyond it's prime at that point. This was two years ago, so I am sure you understand. I did sub to EQ2 for a month. Using the SWG engine, it just didnt satisfy, plus I am a sci fi fan, not fantasy. I wish I had read SOE's revision history with EQ before I played SWG though.
I agree with you on NCSoft. Nuff said I guess...and that bleeds over into Aion for me.
Played (more than a month): SWG, Second Life, Tabula Rasa, Lineage 2, Everquest 2, EvE, MxO, Ryzom.
Tried: WoW, Shadowbane, Anarchy Online, Everquest, WWII Online, Planetside
Beta: Lotro, Tabula Rasa, WAR.
Of course the company's reputation matters, especially in a MMO. MMO's aren't a single player game where you play hardcore for a couple of weeks and beat it, then move on. MMO's are games where people pay monthly in hopes there's enough content, updates, patches, and expansions to keep going for awhile.
Some MMO companies don't have a good reputation of doing the right things.
EQ1-AC1-DAOC-FFXI-L2-EQ2-WoW-DDO-GW-LoTR-VG-WAR-GW2-ESO
If it's a good game, its a good game. Doesn't matter who made it if its good.
Course companies build up a reputation for what kind of games they make, but its not like its impossible for a shitty company to suddenly make a really awesome game.
The company matters because unlike Single Player stand alone games MMOs often cannot be played without that company.
As players / gamers / customers we have a vested interest in that company.
Without that company (for example if they go bankrupt and / or out of business) then we can no longer play the game we payed for.
Their history of support for their products and their design philosophy is important because it can tell us how a game is likely to develop (if at all).
In fact, even the people behind the company can be important. Who is the Lead Designer for example?
This also means that the financials and legal dealings of a MMO Dev company ae subject to scrutiny by gamers. Any one who doesn't think this is the case should look at things like Perpetual Entertainment and the current CME wranglings.
This creates an interesting situation for Game Developers who favour anti piracy measures that require preiodic on line registraton checks too?
That requires the continued survival of those companies too.
That puts them in the same situation... gamers then have an interest (and possibly a 'right'?) to know about how secure their 'investment' (purchase price of a game) is. i.e. If I buy this game will I be unable to play it in a week because the Developer Company has gone out of business?
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
MMORPGs are products. Companies make products.
People buy products based on the product's value. A company's reputation factors into that value.
People don't do in-depth research for every product they buy, just for the ones they care about. Some care about MMORPGs; some don't.
It's odd to word it should it matter. Even if we decided it shouldn't it still would (to some.)
The better and more interesting question is "How much do you care about the companies making your MMORPGs?" Such questions often produce interesting answers on a scale of
"Not at all - I buy products on their own merits,"
to
"I care alot - good product or not, I won't buy from certain companies."
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Back in the dim distant past (1980's to early 90's) it was possible for one person to make a game. Fans tended to follow the visionaries, the mavericks, the creative genius. Will Wright, Sid Meier, Peter Molyneux. As complexity grew it required more people to make the games. Conceptual artists, 3D artists, composers, level designers, lead programmers, codemonkeys. But the vision still lies with one (or three, has to be an odd number or decisions never get made!) people. However a lot of what they do, their influence is diluted by focus groups and ultimately by financial costs. Given that gaming budgets are on a par with movie budgets now.
I still tend to follow the people behind the company as much as the company itself. When you see where the talent goes then you know that what they are going to be produce will be what you like. Sometimes that works, Chris Taylor for example. Other times it doesn't..Richard Garriott (I think that trip to space has fried his brains). Also you'd be surprised how effective poaching talent from rival companies can be..
With the current crop of MMO's most visitors to this site can name me the companies who made World of Warcraft, Guild Wars and Everquest 2.
But can they name me the individual creative genius behind them (or even the CEO!)
In response to the OP, yes I believe it is very important to consider the parent company of the game. But not only their reputation, what the company's mission is, and where the company is.
When thinking specifically to NCsoft and Aion, people have commented that the beta is just a marketing scheme, and sure of course it is, but they do have a purpose with these beta. Half the people think it's about gameplay changes and class balance and all the other things people worry about in MMORPGs. But the developer is in South Korea, they are the ones who are going to make the gameplay changes, and all those suggestions and comments people have been playing in regards to these things are most likely being passed on to the dev team in Korea. How can anyone expect those changes to be made before release???
The main purpose of the Closed beta was to see how the western crowd reacted to the cultural changes NCwest has made to the game. That's all they really have control of, not whether or not the spiritmaster's pet can fly. And people keep saying that NCsoft isn't listening to their customer's in this beta, WTF really??! As seen with WoW, changes take a long time to implement, and those guys are in california, think about how long it takes people in Russia or China to see those changes. BTW China hasn't even seen WotLK yet.
If NCsoft hasn't addressed western players' concerns 3 months after release, then people can place complaints. But right now, everything is rumors and speculation as to how the dev team handles these comments. You'd think users of a website like MMORPG.com would understand the effort and logistics involved in these games. The scale is huge and entire companies rely on these games and devote the entirety of their resources to it. How can people still think the Closed Beta was just a preview still? They archived all the threads people had made on their forums, you think they do all that work for nothing? Get a job with any company and you'll see how many purposeless tasks you have to do.
The open beta on the other hand is most likely a preview event of sorts, as the game has already gone gold, but then again, it will most likely not obligate people into buying their game, merely to see the game before all you whiners pay money for it. Fuck.
MMOs played: Horizons, Auto Assault, Ryzom, EVE, WAR, WoW, EQ2, LotRO, GW, DAoC, Aion, Requiem, Atlantica, DDO, Allods, Earth Eternal, Fallen Earth, Rift
Willing to try anything new
The reputation of an MMO developer does matter.
It would be very foolish to not approach Funcom's The Secret World very cautiously given the repuation they have earned with Anarchy Online and Age of Conan.
Cryptic has now earned their reputation with Champions Online unfortunately.
Mythic has lost their old reputation and gained a new worse reputation.
However, even if a reputation is earned over several years and MMOs, I will still give each new MMO an equal chance. This seems to be the biggest problem with the MMO community and MMO developers: people are not willing to let go of percieved reputations from years ago. To see this firsthand look at any post/topic about SOE. They hold on bitterly until they become a twisted caricature saying "$oE" like a mantra in some futile attempt to keep their fragmented minds from completely dissipating.
It definatly matters
All you need to do is scroll down the list of companies that have multipul titles....
Mythic - totally destroyed DAoC...surprise - Warhammer didn't work out.
SOE - have they ever published anything that has been "working as intended" or haven't completely gutted 2 years in?
Turbine - the destroyer of worlds. LotRs kinda worked out...sorta...but the trail of destruction left in it's wake...was it worth it?
NCSoft (US side) we make'em ...then they shut'em down.
But MMO's are a young genre and this is to be expected. Hell, they are still trying to figure out what business model will work best here.
You say 3 months then people can complain. So you have to pay for 3 months playing a game that could possibly be broken before you should complain?
What a ridiculous notion. This also goes entirely to the point in the OP.
Is a company with such stipulations worth going on a journey with. Is it worth becoming involved with a company that can't make changes regarding gameplay, no matter how broken it is, for months and months on end. Months in which you are supposd to be paying them your subscription?
What you have essentially said is...."I am Charlie Brown."
No matter how many times the same companies pull the ball away from you at the very last moment and makes you look like an idiot flying through the air, you will keep running up and taking a swing at the ball every time its laid out in front of you.
When do you learn a lesson? When do you tihnk, well this company has screwed me many times over, maybe I won't get involved with them this time?
I wonder because it leaves us, the MMO Community, in the position that if large swathes of the community will continue to give a company a chance regardless of that companies previous actions....where is the incentive for that company to change their actions?
Yes it should, Atari is associated with Champions Online and look what a disaster that game is turning out to be.
Yes it should, Atari is associated with Champions Online and look what a disaster that game is turning out to be.
Atari is also associated with The Witcher, one of the most fail and stupidest RPGs of all time.
Oh, wait...
It is extremely important who is in the company writing the game. Exhibit A was Perpetual, a bunch of inexperienced bumbling fools. If the staff does not have experience with MMO's there are is a very good chance you will get a real dud.
Should it matter, NO
What should matter is if the game is good/great. To me that's all that matters, besides I read more about people having issue's with gamecompany X then I ever encountered much issue's.
Now I am not talking about the issue's that company's already are well aware of and even communicaqte with it's players, yet that seems not enough cause even if gamecompany X is saying that feature A will not be in we will see numerous topics saying feature X is not in a gamecompany X sucks.
Main reason I see with this is that people do not inform themself enough with the games they play, if they would we would see less complaints and if we do we might see a rise in constructive topics again.
So especially with MMORPG's it should really matter that people start to learn to inform themselfs about the game they are about to play.
Well if its JUST about the game, then the dev/pub don't matter. It just matters if you like the game.
If it matters who you give your money too, then of course it matters.
There are probaly alot of mixxed opinions on this but my opinion on it is, yes, it matters. The reason it matters to me is the investment of time I usually put into an mmo and how much trust I have in that developer/publisher to do the right thing when the customer is concerned, at the same time just because I read on a forum that someone had a bad experience I dont usually shun the game right away but if I have one myself with a certain company I usually write that company off, but anyway you look at it there are going to be different opinions and some will be situational with this subject.